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View Full Version : Fantasy newbie, got smoked, help? (Lizardmen vs DE's)



Megad00mer
13-03-2007, 13:13
Just played my first very small game of Fantasy this past weekend with my friend who played his first as well. 1000ish pt game, my Lizardmen vs. his Dark Elves.

I got destroyed. Utterly.

Here's (roughly) what we had.

My List:

Scar Veteran with Sword of Battle, Enchanted Shield, Light Armor

Skink Priest increased to lvl 2 wizard

15 Saurus Warriors with spears, full command

12 Skinks with blowpipes, brave, no scouting

5 Saurus Cavalry, champion and standard bearer.


His List (or as I call it, shooty doom) and yes, he was using the updated Dark Elf army book rules.

Noble on a Dark Pegasus with magic weapon (a great weapon that increased strength, can't remember the name)

Assassin with Manbane

2 units of 15 Warriors with spears and shields

2 units of 10 Warriors with repeater crossbows

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower.

We played two games. I moved forward, marching, getting shot to pieces in both. When i did manage to get a charge in, his sheer number of units meant I couldn't avoid a counter flank/rear charge, my Skinks did nothing, my Cavalry died horribly in both games and my Saurus actually ran away in the first game from shooting. My Skink Priest did some cool things (had Comet of Cassandora wipe out a unit in the first game) but it wasn't nearly enough to stem the tide of crossbow death. His noble did nothing both games, and his Assassin did little. He didn't even need these heroes to wipe me from the table.

Next game he'll be replacing these with 3 Sorceresses. o.O

What can I do? Give Skinks scouting? More Saurus? More Priests? How should I deploy? Tactics please, I'm a noob.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don't even need to win, I just want the game to be fun for both of us.

Thanks in advance.

FatOlaf
13-03-2007, 13:28
Skinks against T3 low armour DE is your best friend, you need as many 10 man units of skinks as pos, use one to screen your saurus unit, the rest mix em up some with Javelins, some with blowpipe, keep out of their fire arc, use terrain, you are skirmishers after all, remember you have 360 fire arc, skinks can run rings round static infantry. Make some scouts to march block him early on or to take out the RBT crew depending on where it is. The thing to remember with the blowpipes is that if you have moved and are at long range, if you fire both darts you need 7's to hit therefore no poison, so if you are in this situation only fire one dart leaving you with the magic 6's. Poison against AS 5 works a treat.
As for saurus running off, that was just bad luck, with coldblooded and a LD of 8 you should not be runnning off ever. Remeber he cant shoot you when you are in CC so use skinks screens and cover and get the Saurus and COR into CC asap...

Braad
13-03-2007, 16:07
Well...

First of all, I calculated both your armies in armybuilder, and his is about 130 points bigger than yours, and in such a small battle, that really makes hell of a lot difference.
So check if the point numbers you used correspond, because like this it is no wonder you don't stand a chance.

Then, skinks with blowpipes can be devastating against lone sorcerers, so give them scouting and try to get them there turn 1. Then either shoot the sorceresses or the units they are with (probably in the crossbow units) and see them of.
If you have some additional skinks, that would be good.

Also, there is a blessed spawning for the scar vet providing you with additional dispel dice. Could be very nice. Also, there are way better items for the scar veteren then the ones you have now. Just read them over and think of surprising ways to use them.
And equip your priest with some dispel scrolls. Also, make sure you know which sorceress is his general, and try to get that one first.

Try to get your cavalry in his flank, don't send it over the middle.

That's it for now, just remember that lizardmen have some of the most powerfull units at their disposal, you will just have to learn to use them wisely.

sigur
13-03-2007, 16:20
Losing your first few games of WHFB is totally normal, even if you're playing Lizardmen vs. DE. Just listen to the guys posting here and have some more games.

Yak
13-03-2007, 16:32
I'd change your scar vet set up - my favourite is:

Mark of Tlazacotl
Mark of Quetzl
Jaguar Charm
Aura of quetzl/the other ward save
Great weapon
Shield
Light armour

18' charge, then either S5 with a 1+ armour save (going hand weapon and shield) or S7 with a 3+ armour save. Charge him out of the unit at a small unit of crossbowmen or his war machines- hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. You should at least win combat, if not make them flee.

Make sure he writes down which unit his assassin is in before the game though - else he'll just spring up in whichever unit you happen to charge.

Also, get some salamanders - against T3 low armour troops they will absolutley rinse them!

Caern
13-03-2007, 18:47
Speaking of Skinks...

Blowpipes was awesome in 6th edition, but you will probably want to also go with some javelins in 7th. Why? Well what makes blowpipes deadly is their multiple shots. But in 7th, skinks can no longer run around 12" with no restrictions and still shoot, so they have a hard time actually getting close to their enemies.

Since they have a hard time getting close, that means they'll usually be at long range from their enemy when they get to make their shots, which is a -1 penalty to shooting. Moving is also a -1 penalty, and multiple shots is another -1. That means you need 7+ to hit, and no poison. Without poison, there's no real point at all. So you end up having to give up that multiple shots anyways, so you might as well have used javelins which are also poisoned, suffer no penalties for range or for moving, and will land a few additional normal S3 hits in addition to the poisoned ones - and S3 is all you need against elves.

That's not to say blowpipes are useless. Sometimes you'll be able to get around the flank or otherwise get close enough to take away that range penalty, and then you're set. Or you'll have a Large Target to take down, and then you'll be fine as well, or are at the right range from the enemy you can chose to avoid moving.

So, to sum it up - use a mix of the two. Against elves, I would take more javelins than blowpipes, because elves are quick and frail.

Esco Thomson
13-03-2007, 19:23
I'd change your scar vet set up - my favourite is:

Mark of Tlazacotl
Mark of Quetzl
Jaguar Charm
Aura of quetzl/the other ward save
Great weapon
Shield
Light armour

18' charge, then either S5 with a 1+ armour save (going hand weapon and shield) or S7 with a 3+ armour save. Charge him out of the unit at a small unit of crossbowmen or his war machines- hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. You should at least win combat, if not make them flee.

Make sure he writes down which unit his assassin is in before the game though - else he'll just spring up in whichever unit you happen to charge.

Also, get some salamanders - against T3 low armour troops they will absolutley rinse them!

Yeah, pretty much hit it on the head there. I'm not sure of the exact marks I would use, but the theory is the same. You want your scar vet to be able to jump out and smash face.

Salamanders are pretty much the reason you lost. You don't really want to use the saurus cavalry in smaller games as they are very pricey, and as with most units in the lizard list, things are already expensive.

DesertDirge
13-03-2007, 19:56
all good advice!!! drop the cavalry. and get more skinks and beef up you scarvet. if you have more points get a sally!

arc
13-03-2007, 23:14
Something you might also want to consider is dropping your skink priest, he has no magic anyway. And lore of heaven isnt that impressive against DE.

smileyface
14-03-2007, 02:02
Two points:

1) It's normal to lose your first game. After all, these are new rules for you, with new tactical implications.

2) I'm going to recommend something no-one else has: Don't take any saurus infantry. Think about it, it takes cavalry or kroxigor only two turns to cross the table. It takes infantry three at the most optimistic.

What I'd do, if you can get the models or proxy them*, is field a lot of skinks, some small units of cavalry**, and salamanders. The skinks go forward in a nice loose formation that's harder for the crossbows to hit. Meanwhile the cavalry being behind the skinks cannot be shot at. On the first turn you advance, and make sure that your cavalry have unobstructed LOS and charge route to one and only one enemy unit, placing your skinks to block LOS to the others. Then on turn two you charge.

*I don't know about your local etiquette, but around here we don't mind proxying much and certainly not for newbies.

**even five or six saurus cavalry beat 15 DE spears in combat, if you bring a flag. If you give one unit the War Banner and put a cheap hero in the other you'll murder them.

Two other things to remember: First, skinks blowpipes are not usually as good as javelins, because skinks like to move nd blowpipes don't. Secondly, don't forget that the DE crossbow has an additional -1 to hit penalty when firing multiple shots.

huitzilopochtli
14-03-2007, 09:53
I like the idea of the kroxigor. very origional. sounds very good.

i'm a lizzy n00b too and my fav units have been the skinks. if you have two units of about ten, one can be used to shield your heavy troops while another can be given scouts to creep up behind the enemy. I'd also go with the conventional wisdom here and give the scouts blowpipes and the others javelins and shields. poisoned attacks are deadly and can easily take out enemy characters.

Ward.
14-03-2007, 10:58
I think it can be commonly said that you should lose the skink brave, he's worth a whole extra skink and isn't that much more effective for the cost, not exactly useful advise but :)

Baindread
14-03-2007, 11:22
But in 7th, skinks can no longer run around 12" with no restrictions and still shoot, so they have a hard time actually getting close to their enemies.


They couldn't before either. March and not shoot was in 6th as well.

huitzilopochtli
14-03-2007, 12:17
yes they could. they moved "double pace" all the time because of their loose formation. even when near enemy units.

FatOlaf
14-03-2007, 13:21
yes they could. they moved "double pace" all the time because of their loose formation. even when near enemy units.


Yep skirmishers could always march in 6th regardless of the enemy proximty but we're talking about being able to shoot whilst marching and you cant!

Caern
14-03-2007, 23:12
Yep skirmishers could always march in 6th regardless of the enemy proximty but we're talking about being able to shoot whilst marching and you cant!

Skirmishers could, because skirmishers don't march. They just always moved at double pace.

edit: Skirmishers having to march is a 7th edition change.

Baindread
15-03-2007, 01:37
Skirmishers could, because skirmishers don't march. They just always moved at double pace.

edit: Skirmishers having to march is a 7th edition change.

No, they couldn't. That is just some rules-lawyering which very few people tried. I even think there where several FAQs about this, stating they couldn't.

FatOlaf
15-03-2007, 13:45
Skirmishers could, because skirmishers don't march. They just always moved at double pace.

edit: Skirmishers having to march is a 7th edition change.

No they didn't always move at double pace and you cant shoot if you have marched. We're in 7th Rules now so lets stay there and not confuse the matter.

Skirmishers cant march if they are within 8" of an enemy unit, so best to take skink javelin as your scout units.

Skirmishers cant shoot if they have marched, so use terrain to get your skink scouts close enough to enemy units to maximise their effectiveness..