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Krud
14-03-2007, 15:57
Alright, I was fighting my friend's dark elves, and my unit of 3 ogre maneaters got a bull charge off on the flank of a unit of spearmen. They ranked up five wide, with 2 full ranks and 1 model in the third rank.

My maneaters charged in such a way where the only way I could maximize units in combat would be to have one of my maneaters only touching the last model in the back rank when entering combat.

Due to the bull charge (causing impact hits on the charge) rule, my maneaters caused two wounds before I had to roll to hit for their normal attacks. Because of these wounds, my outside maneater was no longer in base contact with the unit! My friend insisted that he couldn't get his attacks because he was no longer in base contact, and I conceded to his point because I was so far ahead anyway and I didn't want to slow the game down.

My question is twofold: When is it appropriate to remove models who are wounded by impact hits, and can models still participate in combat who are no longer in base contact because of the wounds impact hits caused?

Hope this is clear enough without a picture to explain... what do you guys think?

enyoss
14-03-2007, 16:08
As long as the models were able to fight at the beginning of the combat, they can have their attacks.

The redress ranks part of the combat phase (of which the impact hits are a part) doesn't come until after all attacks have been made.

Cheers,

enyoss

Belerophon709
14-03-2007, 16:11
First of all, the model in his back rank should be positioned as much to the center of the unit as possible, by rule, so if he was on the flank and if this was the only model you could reach in your charge, the charge would have failed (since the unit was in fact, further away).

If, however, you could still reach the regiment, the bull would get both his impact hits and his normal attacks. If units become separated during combat, due to casualties, they are realigned, by rule.

Don't have my BRB with me at the moment, so can't give any page references right now.


Bele

Jonke
14-03-2007, 16:23
First of all, the model in his back rank should be positioned as much to the center of the unit as possible, by rule, so if he was on the flank and if this was the only model you could reach in your charge, the charge would have failed (since the unit was in fact, further away).

This is wrong, if the last rank is incomplete it is moved to the flank if the unit is attacked in the flank. brb 36

Impact hits happen before combat so your maneater does not get to attack since he is not 'in base contact when it is [his] chance to attack'. brb 32

T10
14-03-2007, 16:27
I think you may have read too much into the need to actually be in base-to-base contact with the models in the unit.

The rules handle the situation where a unit with incomplete ranks is engaged to the rear by allowing for the players to assume that models in the rear-most complete rank is also in contact with the enemy.

Eg. A unit of 19 High Elf Spearmen is arranged 7 wide, thus leaving 5 models in the rear rank. It is charged in the rear by 20 Goblins arranged 5 wide. Though the Goblins are in physical contact with only the 5 High Elves in the incomplete rear rank, two additional High-elves from the rear-most complete rank are considered to be in base contact as well.

-T10

chivalrous
14-03-2007, 16:43
Ahh, you clipped his unit, it's a pain but it happens.

Assuming impact hits are caused just as chariots, then they occur at the very beginning of the combat, in the combat phase. All models get to make an attack, so long as they were in base contact at the beginning of the round and haven't been removed as a casualty.
So attackers can attack even if the immediate rank has been wiped out (It just represents the next line of the enemy moving towards them to fill the space formerly occupied by their former comrades)


This is wrong, if the last rank is incomplete it is moved to the flank if the unit is attacked in the flank. brb 36

Impact hits happen before combat so your maneater does not get to attack since he is not 'in base contact when it is [his] chance to attack'. brb 32

It's not wrong as such.
The rearmost models must usually be in the centre, he's got that right.

But you are correct in stating that in combat the models must be moved to engage the flankers.

What I'm wondering is when do you move the models to the flank?
When the charge has been declared?
or
After chargers have been moved?

If the former, then there's no problem with completing the charge.
If the latter then then it sounds like the Ogres should have failed the charge.

T10
14-03-2007, 16:47
Check out figure 36.2.

As the rearmost models are slain, move the attackers foward to ensure that they remain in base contact.

-T10

Belerophon709
14-03-2007, 19:01
Ahh, you clipped his unit, it's a pain but it happens.



But you are correct in stating that in combat the models must be moved to engage the flankers.

What I'm wondering is when do you move the models to the flank?
When the charge has been declared?
or
After chargers have been moved?

If the former, then there's no problem with completing the charge.
If the latter then then it sounds like the Ogres should have failed the charge.

Exactly. There's no reason to move the attackers to the flank if the charge fails to begin with, which, to my understanding of the rules, is what happens if you can't reach at least one model in the unit, without re-arranging the defending models first...

However, if the rules say that the model is moved to the flank immediately (when the charge is declared), then yes, the charge would be in range and the fight would commence. If this is the case though, I fail to see the logic behind the bonuses for charging in the flank. If the defending unit is assumed to take defensive measures as soon as the charge is declared, then these bonuses should also be forfeit and spearmen should gain their ability to fight in ranks and so on. This, however, is not the case. The rules describe a flank or rear charge as an attack from an unexpected direction after all. If it's unexpected, why would the model move to the flank before the chargers even get there?


Bele

Jonke
14-03-2007, 19:12
T10 and Chivalrous: You should read the op more carefully, the maneaters weren't clipping the unit and they were not fighting to the rear. Three maneaters charge the flank, all three make contact but the rearmost is only in contact with the lone model in the last rank of the elven unit.


All models get to make an attack, so long as they were in base contact at the beginning of the round and haven't been removed as a casualty.

Where do you read this?

Peace!

kyussinchains
14-03-2007, 20:49
enyoss is correct on this one, impact hits are basically like extra attacks, so the maneater will not be out of contact until after his attacks are resolved.

DaBrode
14-03-2007, 21:53
I was going to comment that two of the people here are assuming things that did not take place. Clipping and a rear attack.

but I think that's clear now so ...what the last guy said. The attacks should be allowed.

eldrak
14-03-2007, 22:59
Weird, I see no timing rules in the Bull charge rules.

Looks like they could chose to inflict those hits at any time (any phase) during the turn they charge after making contact.

If they work like chariot impact hits the last ogre would not get to strike as he isn't in btb with anyone when it's his turn to strike.

kruzkal
14-03-2007, 23:17
The Ogres are in base contact with the models that are stepping forward from the rear ranks to replace the casualties.

Note that the wording specifies that models who are stepping forward may not attack. Nothing about they cannot be attacked.

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 10:09
As long as the models were able to fight at the beginning of the combat, they can have their attacks.
Cheers,

enyoss

Unless they are striking back and have been slain which is what you meant I think.
See below*


If units become separated during combat, due to casualties, they are realigned, by rule.

Don't have my BRB with me at the moment, so can't give any page references right now.
Bele

Only for incomplete rear ranks.
Neither Combat rules nor the FAQ has addressed the problem of models getting disengaged in combat because of casualties.
More below*


enyoss is correct on this one, impact hits are basically like extra attacks, so the maneater will not be out of contact until after his attacks are resolved.

This won't be accurate as a general rule. Consider the case where the Spearmen [of higher Initiative] had overrun into an Ogre unit and then the Maneaters charged the Spearmen in the next turn. The attacks are now resolved in Initiative order with the Spearmen striking before the Maneaters but probably after their impact hits.

More below*


Weird, I see no timing rules in the Bull charge rules.

Looks like they could chose to inflict those hits at any time (any phase) during the turn they charge after making contact.

If they work like chariot impact hits the last ogre would not get to strike as he isn't in btb with anyone when it's his turn to strike.

Yes. The only helpful phrase used in the Ogre rules is Impact hits.
However the sub-heading in the main rule book does say Impact hits so I suppose it is reasonable that Ogre Impact hits are resolved in the same way as chariot Impact hits.
See below*


The Ogres are in base contact with the models that are stepping forward from the rear ranks to replace the casualties.

Note that the wording specifies that models who are stepping forward may not attack. Nothing about they cannot be attacked.

Yes the rules do confirm this.

With your permission Krud - a slightly different scenario.
Referring to the attached file,

If the impact hits destroys S4, can M3 attack in combat.
a) in this round
b) in subsequent rounds

Bearing in mind
1) pg 63 "[Impact hits] are resolved at the very beginning of combat"
2) Each set of combat attacks [by different units or models in a unit] are not simultaneous but resolved in Initiative order.
3) Each Maneater may be armed differently with Cathayan Swords or Great weapons within a unit.


EDIT: Apologies for the awkward attachment - how do you attach files more effectively?

kruzkal
15-03-2007, 10:33
EDIT: Apologies for the awkward attachment - how do you attach files more effectively?

Take a screen shot (top right of keyboard PRINT SCREEN button), paste into any image editor even paint if you have no Photoshop to trim to appropriate size, then either upload as an attachment or to a free host (such as www.tinypic.com) then post here as an image.

enyoss
15-03-2007, 10:40
Unless they are striking back and have been slain which is what you meant I think.
See below*

I kept wondering whether to edit for that but decided not to. Should have gone with my gut feeling and stuck to Michael McIntyre's 'Lucidity Principles' :p.

Of course DeathlessDraich, that is right. Oh, and cheers for the sig ;).

Cheers,

enyoss

eldrak
15-03-2007, 11:31
Did a small copy of DD's image with color code.

Blue ogres hit green 20mm infantry. After Bull charge impact hits (3 wounds here) the red models get killed and removed. Yellow models will not get a chance to attack in the ensuing combat.

vinush
15-03-2007, 12:39
Having looked at the file from DD, the ogres should have been aligned to maximise models in contact, as per the BRB (Not sure of the page), which means that M2 (going from top to bottom of diagram) should be placed flush with S2 and S3, meaning M3 is in contact diagonally with S3 and flush with S4, and M1 is flush with S1 and diagonally in contact with S2.

The problem of impact hits is then no longer an issue, as M3 can still attack even after S4 has been removed from impact hits.

Although, Impact hits are resolved at the start of the combat phase, and therefore so long as M3 is in contact with a model in any way at the start of combat he can still attack.

Sounds to me like the opponent was whining to try and salveage what he could of the game and cling onto a few desparate points by not having his unit reduced to below half strength.

Of course, that last paragraph is just my opinion.

\/ince.

enyoss
15-03-2007, 12:47
Blue ogres hit green 20mm infantry. After Bull charge impact hits (3 wounds here) the red models get killed and removed. Yellow models will not get a chance to attack in the ensuing combat.

This isn't correct I'm afraid :). The yellow Ogre on the end will get his attacks.

Impact hits are a part of the HTH phase like any other attacks... they just happen first. If, on a charge, my characters kill all the enemy in base contact with my unit, my normal troopers still get the opportunity to attack (provided the troopers aren't killed beforehand for some reason ;)). The situation with the impact hits is exactly the same.

I'll refer you again to the 'Redress Ranks' part of the HTH phase which is performed at the end of the entire combat.

Cheers,

enyoss

EDIT: I just noticed your mention of fighting in the 'ensuing' combat. I think the point is that there is no ensuing combat, the impact hits and the remaining attacks are treated as a whole.

kruzkal
15-03-2007, 12:56
Similar to excess casualties really.

Krud
15-03-2007, 13:06
DD's picture is exactly what happened, just one less Ogre and one less rank. The bottom ogre was only in contact with the last model in the rear rank. I had charged just far enough where I was not able to wheel any further to maximize base contact.

kruzkal
15-03-2007, 13:18
Refer to the Rulebook Errata (http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/3/) in the appendices section for suggested ways to deal with clipping.

vinush
15-03-2007, 13:21
Kruz, they didn't clip. It was a straightforward charge.

\/ince.

kruzkal
15-03-2007, 13:28
The term 'clipping' refers to the situation when two units end up engaged in combat and are not facing fully against each other. If his battle line was not maximised (referring to Krud) then it is clipping, a very mild case of clipping. Anyhow, the suggested solution is the same.

Masque
16-03-2007, 01:14
This isn't correct I'm afraid :). The yellow Ogre on the end will get his attacks.

This ruling (which seems to be agreed upon by several people) does not take into account the first sentence of 'Which Models Fight' on page 32: "Models can fight if they are in base contact with an enemy model when it is their chance to attack." This implies that models who began the combat in contact with the enemy and who have not been removed as casualties may become unable to fight if their opponents have already been killed (and not replaced by models stepping forward).

mattjgilbert
16-03-2007, 01:55
Coming back to WFB again after many years and reading the 7th Ed rules for aligning a combat, I've always found it reasonable that a unit could charge and only engage a small number of enemy models. That's probably not an unusual occurrence in real life and the rules cover the situation well by subsequently allowing the winning unit in a combat for increase the number of models in their front rank (by up to 5 from memory), representing the winners pilling into the losers.

The alignment rules (to me at least, having no preconceptions about how 6th Ed worked) in 7th Ed is simply a mechanic to line the units up square on to each other, purely to aid in calculating easily who is in base to base contact and NOT to maximise the number of combatants (I don’t recall reading that)... that's what the expansion of the frontage rules is for. I feel the FAQ goes against the rule book in this regard.

meh... maybe I just haven't played enough games or read it right but I’m pretty sure that's the way I read it. I’m also miles from a BRB to have another read/ sanity check :)

grg3d
16-03-2007, 02:31
Hi All, silly question? Do impact wounds(bull charge,Charrot) count toward Combat results?

Masque
16-03-2007, 02:44
Hi All, silly question? Do impact wounds(bull charge,Charrot) count toward Combat results?

Yes. See page 63 of the BRB.