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larabic
15-03-2007, 08:35
So if a character with killing blow enters a challenge and scores a killing blow does it count as one wound or the number of wounds the character that was killed had? I was curious so i know how to calculate combat results due to the overkill rule.

Alathir
15-03-2007, 08:48
I would count it as the entire number of wounds, plus any overkill you also managed to score.

Jedi152
15-03-2007, 08:52
It is a bit of a conundrum - so does it work like this? Lets say you are in a challenge, and hit your opponent with three attacks. You roll to wound, needing a 3+, and score a 2, a 5 and a 6. The 6 kills the enemy outright due to KB.

Is the 5 you rolled counted towards overkill as it would have scored a wound had the enemy not been killed outright? So your addition to the combat resolution would be the total wounds of the enemy character plus 1?

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 09:06
The 6 would inflict all the wounds needed to kill the character outright.
If the 5 is sufficient to cause a wound then it counts towards an overkill.

The only possible disagreement might be whether armour saves are allowed for the 5 rolled.
I would say yes, because a model's combat attacks are assumed to be simultaneous.

Lord Khabal
15-03-2007, 09:21
But what if (in a challenge - say a Bloodthirster VS Dwarf lord) the bloodthirster scores 3 killing blows and no other wounds - that's 9 wounds?? So the CR for the BT would be 3 + 5 (max bonus for overkill).

However if the dwarf lord was previously injured (had taken 1 wound before) the CR for the BT would be (6 wounds scored?) 2 + 4 (2 wounds for overkill)

Is this correct?!

enyoss
15-03-2007, 09:37
But what if (in a challenge - say a Bloodthirster VS Dwarf lord) the bloodthirster scores 3 killing blows and no other wounds - that's 9 wounds?? So the CR for the BT would be 3 + 5 (max bonus for overkill).


As far as I am aware, in this case you would score 5 towards combat resolution. As follows: the first Killing Blow removes the Dwarf's remaining wounds (+3), subsequent Killing Blows count as +1 each towards Overkill (+2). A total of +5.



However if the dwarf lord was previously injured (had taken 1 wound before) the CR for the BT would be (6 wounds scored?) 2 + 4 (2 wounds for overkill)

Is this correct?!

The methodology is correct :). From above: as the Dwarf starts with only two wounds, the first Killing Blow will only count as +2 towards the combat resolution. The rest is the same so, as you thought, the total is one less than before (+4).

Cheers,

enyoss

EDIT: @ Lord Khabal: Welcome to Warseer by the way :D.

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 10:14
Hello and welcome Lord Khabal.

Sean Connery, I mean Enyoss:p is right

DarthBinky
15-03-2007, 16:39
Hate to rain on the parade, but where does it actually say that those wounds are inflicted? You guys are answering with such certainty, yet I don't see rules that support it.

The wording of KB specifically talks about "this wound"- there's only one being inflicted, and then KB just kills the model. The other wounds on the model aren't actually being inflicted.

So, RAW, it seems to be just one wound is dealt for purposes of CR. Unless I'm missing something... hence my initial question.

enyoss
15-03-2007, 17:02
Hate to rain on the parade, but where does it actually say that those wounds are inflicted? You guys are answering with such certainty, yet I don't see rules that support it.

There was an FAQ about this situation some time ago. Granted, it was back in 6th edition, but the circumstances haven't really changed.

I'm not sure if there's an updated FAQ (or, even better, a reference in the rulebook :)), but it has certainly been ruled on in the past.

Cheers,

enyoss

dominic_carrillo
15-03-2007, 17:18
ive always played it as one wound, that kills a person outright. killing blow represents the act of severing an arm, leg or head in such a way that the person just dies instantly.

DarthBinky
15-03-2007, 17:26
There was an FAQ about this situation some time ago. Granted, it was back in 6th edition, but the circumstances haven't really changed.

I'm not sure if there's an updated FAQ (or, even better, a reference in the rulebook :)), but it has certainly been ruled on in the past.

Nothing against you, but that really doesn't help. I learned a valuable lesson from the GW boards a while back- "there was a ruling on it..." without documentation answers like this are pretty much useless.

And I just googled it and came up empty-handed. I also made a point of searching for 6th Ed stuff.

dominic_carrillo
15-03-2007, 17:35
my reasoning is that when i think overkill, i think of a guy getting stabbed a bunch of times or brutally beaten with a bat over a period of a few minutes (hence the multiple wounds).

pcgamer72
15-03-2007, 17:45
If I got a KB on a Dwarf Lord, I probably wouldn't even worry about the extra wounda (assuming I won the combat) just because I'd feel a little bit like a d*ck :P.

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 19:00
Nothing against you, but that really doesn't help. I learned a valuable lesson from the GW boards a while back- "there was a ruling on it..." without documentation answers like this are pretty much useless.

And I just googled it and came up empty-handed. I also made a point of searching for 6th Ed stuff.
The FAQ in question definitely existed. I know it doesn't help much as I'm just another guy on the internet, but it definitely existed.

vinush
15-03-2007, 19:06
I'd of said the KB only counts as 1 wound that kills outright. Any additional wounds caused would still get a save, and if failed would count for overkill.

Therefore a KB roll to wound, plus 2 additional rolls to wound that didn't inflict KB but went unsaved would be worth 3 combat res.

\/ince

DarthBinky
15-03-2007, 19:16
The FAQ in question definitely existed. I know it doesn't help much as I'm just another guy on the internet, but it definitely existed.
Well, it doesn't exist *now*, and that's what matters. Even if it could be found, that's 6th, not 7th... I vaguely recall that KB got changed a bit in 7th.

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 21:36
Well, it doesn't exist *now*, and that's what matters. Even if it could be found, that's 6th, not 7th... I agree, I was just providing more evidence.


I vaguely recall that KB got changed a bit in 7th.

The only thing that changed was the rule determining who can be affected (the change from man-sized to US1 or 2).

I'd certainly play by the 6th FAQ, as it makes sense. However, if my opponent objected I would have nothing to support my position and would be forced to acquiesce.

Avaron
16-03-2007, 04:51
hmm it seems to me that killing blow is a additional effect added onto your normal effects. A seperate bonuse for that character. now if it did a set number of wounds there would be no reason to question how it works but as it just kills them it causes problems.

If I had to guess I would say no it only inflicts one wound but your opponent dies so it has a special bonuse anyways.

and even if it dose count for overkill doing multiple hits/wounds from diffrent attacks and killing blows should allways add up in the slowest way possible. if you score two regular wounds and one KB on a guy with 3 wounds it should go regular regular KB resulting in 3 wounds not KB regular regular for 5.

but thats just how I would do it to avoid giveing killing blow any more power than it already has.

larabic
16-03-2007, 06:27
Everyone know you cant killing blow a Dwarf lord...either the run or the shield bearers will stop you. So this is nice fiction....

Anyway i think it counts as one wound, even though logic says it would count as his remaining wounds...i would like GW to address this sometime in the future though.

Archaon
16-03-2007, 08:14
The only thing that changed was the rule determining who can be affected (the change from man-sized to US1 or 2).


As a side question.. does that mean a character on a monstrous mount, i.e. at least a combined US 3 or higher can't be KB'ed?

druchii
16-03-2007, 08:19
Everyone know you cant killing blow a Dwarf lord...either the run or the shield bearers will stop you. So this is nice fiction....

Anyway i think it counts as one wound, even though logic says it would count as his remaining wounds...i would like GW to address this sometime in the future though.

I did it tonight, actually :D

Anyway, We've always played that the killing blow counts for the total wounds remaining on the model when his head gets lopped off.

IE a dwarf lord with three wounds gets killing blown (sounds like a bad porno), he loses all three wounds, and the combat res. calculated from the situation would be three in favor of the killing blower(lol).

Also, we play if a model is wounded with two sixes (by a model with killing blow) he gets a double killing blow. IE combat res would be +woundsx2(ie six if the characters weren't in a challenge).

While this isn't explicitly stated in the rules, we think that it makes the most sense.

d

Falkman
16-03-2007, 08:19
As a side question.. does that mean a character on a monstrous mount, i.e. at least a combined US 3 or higher can't be KB'ed?

No, the character is still US1, but his mount is US3 or higher.
They are two different parts you may choose to attack.

lparigi34
18-03-2007, 06:13
As for overkill, I believe can take the score of it in two possible ways. Lets suppose the enemy character has 3 remaining wounds, so the moment you count the KB becomes important. Yoo roll two wounds, one is a 6 and tehrefore a Killing Blow...

1.- You KB your your opponent adn take the remaining three wounds and then add and extra for the other one, that is a total score of 4.

2.- You cause a normal wound (which can be saved or not), and take the ramaining wounds from the KB hit. That is a total score of 3.

So, it seems to be important that roll Hit-by-Hit if you are in a challenge and have the KB ability!!!

Of course you will not do it, so it becomes a little odd to the point that depending on how you apply the rule, it might be better not to have the KB at all!!!

So, IMO it should be applied like this: the KB takes the remaining wound, any extra wounding hit (KB or not) counts as a wound for the overkill score.

Anyway, it needs a definitely answer from the guys making the rules...

Arnizipal
18-03-2007, 18:52
I did it tonight, actually :D

Well technically you couldn't if the Dwarf Lord had shieldbearers. The entire model becomes US3 and is immune to killing blow.

explorator
18-03-2007, 22:37
This might be the rule people are searching for, and it is no wonder it is difficult to find. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 pg. 114 Q&A

Q. Can a model regenerate if slain by a model with Killing Blow that rolls a 6 on its roll to wound?
A. You cannot regenerate a wound caused by Killing Blow. Note that for the purpose of combat resolution, use the remaining wounds of a model slain by Killing Blow.

My gaming group follows this rule. Imagine a Blood Dragon Vampire Lord with an extra hand weapon, Red Fury, Heart Piercing, and Killing Blow (7 attacks) challenges a Nurgle Lord of Chaos (4 wounds) on the charge. Let's say the Vampire hits with all 7 attacks and his to wound rolls are 1,4,5,6,6,6,6. Let's say none of the wounds are saved. The first Killing Blow nets 4 points of combat resolution for the 4 wounds the Chaos Lord had. The other 5 unsaved wounds add another 5 points to combat res. for a total of plus 9 to combat res.

enyoss
18-03-2007, 22:54
This might be the rule people are searching for, and it is no wonder it is difficult to find. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 pg. 114 Q&A

Q. Can a model regenerate if slain by a model with Killing Blow that rolls a 6 on its roll to wound?
A. You cannot regenerate a wound caused by Killing Blow. Note that for the purpose of combat resolution, use the remaining wounds of a model slain by Killing Blow.


Vindicated :)! Well, as long as you don't mind using a 6th edition FAQ with 7th edition that is. Still, I find it puzzling that they didn't include this in the new book, seeing as they identified it as a problem in the past.

Cheers,

enyoss

DeathlessDraich
19-03-2007, 09:11
Chronicles general rules cannot be accepted for 7th.

Chronicles 4 refers to 6th ed regeneration - with a very different and often contentious mechanism.
Regeneration rules has been changed for 7th and looking at the way it is phrased, I think it could be used against Killing blow.

Noldo
19-03-2007, 09:28
Well, the answer given regarding the effect of Killing Blow to Combat Resolution has nothing to do with the possibility to regenerate the wound that caused the killing blow. Naturally one can dismiss all previous FAQ and similar rules references, but since the rules governing Killing Blow itself had not changed between editions, the aforementioned ruling should stand also in 7th edition.

I do agree that GW did very sloppy work by not including all relevant Chronicles rulings into 7th edition rules (most notably Mounted Characters in infantry units and we can add this Killing Blow ruling as well)

Masque
19-03-2007, 09:32
Chronicles general rules cannot be accepted for 7th.

Chronicles 4 refers to 6th ed regeneration - with a very different and often contentious mechanism.
Regeneration rules has been changed for 7th and looking at the way it is phrased, I think it could be used against Killing blow.

The Killing Blow rule on page 95 specifically says "No armour saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound, though ward saves can be taken as normal."

DeathlessDraich
19-03-2007, 12:37
Oops! Yes of course, you are absolutely right.:p

Dark_Wolfen
27-03-2007, 19:39
You can only KB models of man-sized size, so I guess you can't KB the monstrous creature. And I also think the KB inflicts only one wound. It IS only one attack and can cause only one wound. It just kills the enemy model instantly but only 1 attack struck, not more.

druchii
28-03-2007, 16:37
Well technically you couldn't if the Dwarf Lord had shieldbearers. The entire model becomes US3 and is immune to killing blow.

Sorry, the quote was in responce to a statement that "the shield bearers or the rune" will prevent it from happening. Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for the stunties!) this particular dwarf lord had neither.


As for overkill, I believe can take the score of it in two possible ways. Lets suppose the enemy character has 3 remaining wounds, so the moment you count the KB becomes important. Yoo roll two wounds, one is a 6 and tehrefore a Killing Blow...

I agree that the "timing" of the attacks is important, but with our group of guys, we'd rather roll a bunch of dice and then argue about rules after a beer and hot wings after the game.

If someone rolls a Killing Blow hit, in a batch of say four dice, we assume the Killing Blow "happens first". While not technicaly the "right" way to do it, I tink it's safe to say we don't mind. :D

d