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T10
15-03-2007, 14:47
Can a unit that flees from one charging unit be destroyed destroyed by another charging unit?

Fleeing unit A1 sucessfull out-distances charging unit B1. It ends up in the charge path of unit B2 trying to engage unit A2.

What happens?


A1 is destroyed
A1 makes another flee move away from B2
B2 must avoid A1 or suffer a failed charge


Any other options?

-T10

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 14:50
I have a feeling that strictly by the rules B2 would fail its charge unless it goes around A1.

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 15:43
A1 is only destroyed after all fleeing moves have been resolved. This is likely to happen through EITW by B2 forcing A1 to move [I]closer to B2 because B1 > B2 and both are charging A1.



A1 makes another flee move only in response to a charge declaration by B2 due to EITW



B2's final position will only be hampered by friendly units. If it would hit A1, then it declares a charge using EITW or stops 1" away



Other options:
A2 which has decided to Hold against B2 can change its response to flee from B1 through EITW. This will be a change in flee direction if B1>B2

Jonke
15-03-2007, 15:50
A1 is destroyed. See the rulebook faq.

edit: Or maybe not. I don't think it's covered by the rules. But units stopping a charge because fleeing enemy models gets in the way doesn't feel right so I would say it is destroyed. But that is gut felling.

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 15:54
Which one Jonke? EITW?

Chicago Slim
15-03-2007, 16:09
Can a unit that flees from one charging unit be destroyed destroyed by another charging unit?

Fleeing unit A1 sucessfull out-distances charging unit B1. It ends up in the charge path of unit B2 trying to engage unit A2.

What happens?

So far, what you've laid out is good: A1 fled during compulsary moves, A2 either held or fled-- in any case, it's not relevant to this particular question.

I'll assume B1 declared its charge before B2 (hence the numbers...) So, during move chargers, B1 moved first, and we confirm that it failed to catch A1.

When B2 moves, it will move in such a way as to make its best effort to reach A2, wheeling at most once, and arriving with maximal frontage. If, in attempting to do this, it must hit A1 along the way, then B2 may either fail its charge against A2, or B2 may declare a new charge, against A1, according to the Enemy in the Way rules.

If B2 declares an EitW charge vs A1, then A1 "must make a charge response as normal", which will be to flee (since fleeing units can only declare flee as their charge response). The flee move is resolved immediately, out of the normal turn sequence. B2 now continues its charge move against A1's new position, assuming that A1 is not destroyed (since A1 is now B2's declared charge target). It is, of course, possible for A1 to be destroyed while fleeing from B2, if A1's flee move brings it into contact with a unit belonging to B (such as, say, B1), or impassible terrain. In that case, B2 moves directly forward in a failed charge (since there's now no A1 to catch).

If (and only if) B2's charge (or failed charge) towards A1 brings it into contact with A2, then B2 may declare ANOTHER EitW charge, this time against A2.

Repeat, until B2 runs out of movement, runs into a friendly unit or impassible terrain, or successfully completes a charge.

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 16:17
or B2 may declare a new charge, against A1, according to the Enemy in the Way rules.If and only if A2 declared a flee reaction.


If B2 declares an EitW charge vs A1, then A1 "must make a charge response as normal", which will be to flee (since fleeing units can only declare flee as their charge response). See the FAQ - units do not get to flee more than once in a phase.

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 16:23
Is this "do not get to change their charge response"?
Which FAQ?

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 16:29
Is this "do not get to change their charge response"?
Which FAQ?

The rulebook FAQ, 3rd page of the pdf:

"Note that units that are charged again through this process do not get a new charge reaction"

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 16:33
Yes, that's the one I thought.
The fleeing unit cannot change its flee reaction.
It has to flee againwhen charged again like all fleeing units.

bluu
15-03-2007, 16:40
After actually reading the entire thread, I find that the ruling of the A1 again fleeing, away from B2, is the proper way to proceed. It seems very strange to me that A1 would be able to do an other chage reaction, since that would mean it would automatically rally.

DeathlessDraich
15-03-2007, 16:43
Possibly but the fleers move first and have already moved before the chargers move.
Therefore it is a case of an enemy unit moving into a fleeing unit rather than the other way round.

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 16:56
Yes, that's the one I thought.
The fleeing unit cannot change its flee reaction.That's not what the FAQ says. "A new charge reaction" is any charge reaction at all, not merely a changed one. It has already resolved its charge reaction, and doesn't get a new one.

T10
15-03-2007, 17:32
I see nothing in the rules about a charging unit moving into contact with a fleeing unit against which it had not declared a charge. I can only assume that in order to destroy the unit you have to explicitly declare a charge against it, i.e. not accidentally.

Either the "enemy in the way" rule allows the B2 unit to change it's charge declaration in order to destroy A1* (this may throw it off course, but redeclaring a charge against A2 may be possible).

*) It seems clear that A1 will not make a second flee move from B2.

Otherwise B2 may suffer a failed charge because it cannot engage (and destroy) a unit it has not declared a charge against.

Which is it?

-T10

Jonke
15-03-2007, 19:22
Which one Jonke? EITW?

I mis-remembered. I was thinking of when you catch the original target after the eitw target also fled.


It seems clear that A1 will not make a second flee move from B2.

True.


Otherwise B2 may suffer a failed charge because it cannot engage (and destroy) a unit it has not declared a charge against.

B2 failing its charge is correct raw I think, but silly. The best in-game solution maybe is to let A1 flee once more and B2 completes the charge on A2.

Peace!

Negativemoney
15-03-2007, 19:25
By RAW any charging unit that contacts a unit that it did not declare a charge against can imediately declare a charge against that unit. This is found on the second paragraph of the EITW rules.

What will happen here is that B2 will charge and destroy A1 then continue to charge A2 after A1 has been destroyed since it can not flee a second time durring that turn.

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 19:48
Negativemoney, the EitW rules apply if and only if A2 fled. If A2 declared any other reaction, EitW does not apply.

Chicago Slim
15-03-2007, 19:48
Negativemoney offers a tidy resolution, and I'm becoming gradually convinced that the quote from the FAQ above should apply to *any* EitW charge against a unit that has already fled this turn.


ME: or B2 may declare a new charge, against A1, according to the Enemy in the Way rules.
ATRAHASIS: If and only if A2 declared a flee reaction.

I don't see why A2 fleeing would be a necessary condition for EitW. EitW simply says that if you hit enemy during your charge move, you can either fail your charge, or else change the target of your charge to the guys you hit.

Negativemoney
15-03-2007, 19:55
EITW is about having the option after declaring charges to charge additional units that get in the way of your original charge. Since the most common event of this happeneing is when a charged unit flees and another becomes available you can now charge that one. If a broken unit charges in your path it still results in the same situation as if the charged unit flees. You apply EITW in both situations untill a success full charge is completed.

Atrahasis
15-03-2007, 19:56
Don't see what A2 fleeing would be a necessary condition for EitW. EitW simply says that if you hit enemy during your charge move, you can either fail your charge, or else change the target of your charge to the guys you hit.The rulebook specifically states "after a unit has fled from the charge, it can happen that the chargers, ..." (emphasis mine). The use of "the" makes the chargers and fleers specific to a particular charge.

Yellow Commissar
15-03-2007, 20:21
The rulebook specifically states "after a unit has fled from the charge, it can happen that the chargers, ..." (emphasis mine). The use of "the" makes the chargers and fleers specific to a particular charge.


No. The Errata changes what the rulebook said.



Page 23. ‘Enemy in the way’, in reprints the section's
title will be changed to upper case, and the first sentence
of the first paragraph will be shortened by deleting: ‘After
a unit has fled from the charge,’

:)

Negativemoney
15-03-2007, 20:33
From the FAQ:

Page 23. ‘Enemy in the way’, in reprints the section's
title will be changed to upper case, and the first sentence
of the first paragraph will be shortened by deleting: ‘After
a unit has fled from the charge,’
Page 23. ‘Enemy in the way’, in reprints the first
sentence of the second paragraph will be changed to: ‘If
the charging unit would run into another enemy, they are
allowed to immediately declare a new charge against the
enemy unit now in their way’.

This supports my argument quite nicely.

Chicago Slim
15-03-2007, 20:42
Please note that the Errata strikes the passage you've quoted.

Chicago Slim
15-03-2007, 20:43
Wow, did we all just JUMP on poor Atrahasis! Sorry-- I think we were all typing at the same time... :)

Chicago Slim
15-03-2007, 20:47
What will happen here is that B2 will charge and destroy A1 then continue to charge A2 after A1 has been destroyed since it can not flee a second time durring that turn.

Not precisely (though your shorthand will work in almost every case): once B2 declares an EitW charge against A1, then B2 is no longer charging A2, so it can't "continue" to charge A2. If the line of charge through A1 takes B2 into A2, then B2 can declare a second EitW charge against A2. Typically, this will be the case, but it isn't quite a given.

Negativemoney
15-03-2007, 21:05
The line can never change apart from a single wheel durring the charge. so as long as A1 and A2 are in the same line then it will happen. Otherwise there is no way to charge A1 without the charge resulting in charging A2.

You don't need to maximize if you destroy the unit so your direction will never change.

T10
16-03-2007, 12:13
To sum it up: If a unit's charge path is suddenly obstructed by a different enemy unit then the charging unit can declare a new charge against it.

-T10

Chicago Slim
16-03-2007, 12:34
Suddenly, or not so suddenly, even. For example: my enemy has place an Empire infantry block near my unit, and a detachment a bit further back. It looks to me like I can shoot the gap with my cavalry, slip past the main unit and charge the detachment, so that's the charge I declare. When it turns out that it's just a bit too narrow, and I'll hit the main block instead, I have the option of changing my charge target (and thus triggering all the normal Empire detachment craziness).

EitW can be invoked any time your charge move takes you into enemies.

T10
16-03-2007, 13:07
That interpretation opens up for some interesting abuse.

Let's assume your hero on a dragon is faced with a line of units, one directly behind the other. If you want to get the most out of your Terror, it makes sense to declare a charge against the most distant unit first. When the unit has taken its Terror test you decide to charge a different unit: the next most distant unit. Repeat for each successively closer unit along the line.

In this manner your interpretation of EitW allows you to trigger multiple Terror checks on units you have no real intention of charging. And that's just plain wrong in my opinion!


EitW is all about option and opportunity: If you have the opportunity to engage a different target then you have the option of doing so. However, the EitW rules do not take into account the fact that you may have the choice of moving around a unit in order to enage a target that is not fleeing. Only when chasing fleeing units are you restricted to moving directly towards the target and thus you may be presented with new, unavoidable targets.

-T10

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 13:34
EITW only works if the charge itself is blocked by a unit (hence the unit is in the way) A flying unit that is using its fly move can fly (and does fly over) units that are infront of its intended target. Because of this the way that the EITW rules are described they cannot EITW any unit infront of the inteneded target.

Atrahasis
16-03-2007, 14:08
It is still open to abuse. Imagine an army of 5 or 6 block units with 39mm between the units. As there is nowhere for the flyer to land, he can EitW all the way from one end of the line to the other.

Greyfire
16-03-2007, 16:05
It is still open to abuse. Imagine an army of 5 or 6 block units with 39mm between the units. As there is nowhere for the flyer to land, he can EitW all the way from one end of the line to the other.

As flyers can not land on enemy units, a charge against the furthest unit would be an automatic failure, right? There's no room for him to land so the charge fails. If it was an impassable feature in front of that unit the dragon wouldn't be able to land either, so that'd be a failed charge too, that's where my thinking is at. (Of course, my thinking is often suspect.)

If so, that'd be a failed charge - and with that many units in his way, I guess he'd just end up one inch from the closest unit where there is room for him.

Is that right? I can't think of anything else that could mess with the dragon (or other creature that's trying this). And I guess that's where part of the EITW rule can get complicated, if I'm incorrect (and I probably am).

Other than that, I guess in this case of a large, flying unit that can see and charge over other units that are too closely placed, then those units may end up being hosed. Except that each unit could try for a hold reaction and count on the EITW forcing the declaration to keep moving down the pipe to the closest unit that actually has room for the dragon. But the whole terror check that goes along with the typical large flyer could mess things up royally.

Does that sound like a reasonable way for the opponent on the receiving end of this tactic to handle it? As well as discussing how it could be used, I'd like to hear how to defend against it since it sounds like it could work. Other than making sure I keep my units out of a line formation like that, counting on hold reactions and anchoring my units with difficult terrain, I can't think of anything. Thanks for any tips!

-=- Greyfire

DeathlessDraich
16-03-2007, 17:51
It looks to me like I can shoot the gap with my cavalry, slip past the main unit and charge the detachment, so that's the charge I declare. When it turns out that it's just a bit too narrow, and I'll hit the main block instead, I have the option of changing my charge target (and thus triggering all the normal Empire detachment craziness).

EitW can be invoked any time your charge move takes you into enemies.

The charge above is an automatic failed charge because "you have estimated your charge incorrectly" - pg21
Any opponent [of sound mind] won't flee from this charge. Fear/Terror tests won't be taken because this charge will effectively be out of range - so this charge declaration does not change anything.

Declaring EITW after this failed charge is possible
"...may happen even if the original target... that the charge has failed"

But this would be the acceptable charge declaration if it was declared in the first place


That interpretation opens up for some interesting abuse.

Let's assume your hero on a dragon is faced with a line of units, one directly behind the other. If you want to get the most out of your Terror, it makes sense to declare a charge against the most distant unit first. When the unit has taken its Terror test you decide to charge a different unit: the next most distant unit. Repeat for each successively closer unit along the line.
-T10

I agree, it would be abusing the rules.
My counter argument would be:

No problem with a Dragon which is Large Flyer, it could be interpreted that there is no enemy in the way.
If there is space for the 'last' unit, then it simply flies towards this unit.
If there isn't its failed charged causes it to fly over intervening units

pg 68
Flying charges "can otherwise fly over models and scenery that would stop the charge of a normal model"

I know it says 'can' but the EITW rules states "If the charging unit would run into another enemy".

The flyer 'could' run into an enemy unit but has a choice of not doing so and therefore fails the main EITW criterion "would run into another enemy".

Maybe it's not 100% convincing but I would have to be quite insistent in the face of this blatant abuse of the rules

Also below*



Except that each unit could try for a hold reaction and count on the EITW forcing the declaration to keep moving down the pipe to the closest unit that actually has room for the dragon. But the whole terror check that goes along with the typical large flyer could mess things up royally.
-=- Greyfire

*The charge is declared against the last unit but EITW will be against the closest unit in the way which will probably have sufficient space, distance etc for a legitimate charge declaration. This would have been the original reasonable target for the charge. So it is really a one stage abuse:p


EITW only works if the charge itself is blocked by a unit (hence the unit is in the way) A flying unit that is using its fly move can fly (and does fly over) units that are infront of its intended target. Because of this the way that the EITW rules are described they cannot EITW any unit infront of the inteneded target.

Got to be careful with extending this interpretation too far. It might mean that flyers cannot use EITW which won't be correct too.


It is still open to abuse. Imagine an army of 5 or 6 block units with 39mm between the units. As there is nowhere for the flyer to land, he can EitW all the way from one end of the line to the other.

One abuse as I mentioned above* but an abuse nevertheless.

Chicago Slim
16-03-2007, 18:25
Neat hypothetical, T10. The notion of a line of 5 units, with 39 mm between each pair, is obviously contrived, but in that case, I think your hypothetical plays it exactly correctly:

I charge against the back unit. This is a perfectly legal charge: I can see it, and I have reason to believe I can succeed at the charge. When moving chargers, it turns out that the unit in front of my target is too close, thust denying me room to land my dragon. So, that Enemy is in the Way of my charge, and I have the option of failing my charge (and landing in front of the blocking unit, 1" away from it) or of charging the blocking unit. I choose the latter, only to discover that the unit in front of IT is ALSO a bit too close to allow me to land. I iterate the decision tree, until I find a place to land, at the front of the line of units.

Makes sense, logical, follows all the rules, and is totally not abusive. Of course, if I really didn't think that there was room for me to land in the first case, then it is an abuse of the rules, as is the declaration of ANY charge that I don't think I can make.

As for calling EitW on *any* flyover: that's an incorrect reading of the rules. During "Move chargers", you have to attempt to get in with the target of your charge. If it's possible to meet that objective, then you are not allowed to do anything that would cause you to fail that objective. EitW only applies if the Enemy that are in the Way PREVENT you from reaching the target of your declared charge, in a qualitative way.

T10
16-03-2007, 18:33
EITW only works if the charge itself is blocked by a unit (hence the unit is in the way) A flying unit that is using its fly move can fly (and does fly over) units that are infront of its intended target. Because of this the way that the EITW rules are described they cannot EITW any unit infront of the inteneded target.

That is not true. The enemy unit does not have to block the charger's path, it has to simply be in it.

Please see the attached diagram. The Large Target Flier (black) charges the tasty red unit, which flees. Now the flier has the option of ignoring the the other units and destroying the original target or it can change it's charge declaration and charge either the blue or the green unit. Both units are in the way, but neither blocks the charger's path.

Had the red unit chosen to hold instead, I am sure most would agree that it is unreasonable that the charger be allowed to change his mind and declare a charge against the blue unit instead!

-T10

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 18:40
The issue here is that A Flyer on the charge flies over interposing models (both friend and foe) Because of this he will not run into those units as he is flying over them. I agree this opens up a large amount of new issue but this is how the rules are worded.

Atrahasis
16-03-2007, 18:42
Both units are in the way, but neither blocks the charger's path.In English, this sentence makes no sense. "In the way" is a phrase which means "blocking the path".

Chicago Slim
16-03-2007, 19:22
T10,

The EitW rules don't prevent the abusive scenario you posit. The Move Chargers rules, however, DO prevent the abuse: chargers are required to do their level best to get into the unit they declared their charge against.

In the specific case you drew, if the red unit that was the dragon's original target flees, then the dragon measures 20" to the red unit's final position. If it's in range, then the red unit is destroyed. If it's not in range, then the red unit survives. In either case, the dragon does its level best to catch them.