PDA

View Full Version : Imperial Dragon



Metal_King
15-03-2007, 21:14
Hey guys. I'm trying to find an army that fits this certain idea, and I think the Empire is what I want, but I can't find the rules for using the Imperial Dragon. Does he go with a special character? Anyone know where I can find them, or want to give me a brief explanation. Thanks.

NakedFisherman
15-03-2007, 21:22
He is a mount for Karl-Franz only.

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 05:23
Also note that Karl is no longer a special character but rather a named lord choice.

Greyfire
16-03-2007, 05:49
Grab the new Empire book for complete details on Karl and the dragon. They're detailed there. You're looking at 350 pts for the lord and another 320 pts for the dragon.

-=- Greyfire

Ganymede
16-03-2007, 16:46
Yep, just take a gander at the list index and you will see the special character Karl Franz can ride the Imperial Dragon. He's expensive though, and building your army around a special character can end up looking aesthetically unpleasing.

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 17:35
He no longer a special character. He is a Named Lord Choice.

Special characters no longer exsists in the new books.

Wings of Doom
16-03-2007, 17:41
The differance between special characters and named characters being..?

Oh, thats right, nothing.

Flame
16-03-2007, 18:16
Hes still a bloody special character.

Anything else is just being silly.

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 18:17
Named Characters are part of the amy list, do not need opponents permission and can be taken in tournaments that don't allow special characters.

There are several WD articles regarding this issue, and the change made to the characters

beastgod
16-03-2007, 18:43
I know that here in sweden is every named character count as special charakter and almost every tournaments dont allow them, even if they in the army book...

ZeroTwentythree
16-03-2007, 18:50
Named Characters are part of the amy list, do not need opponents permission and can be taken in tournaments that don't allow special characters.

There are several WD articles regarding this issue, and the change made to the characters


:rolleyes:

And now we have tournaments stating "no special characters, not even the heroes from the Empire army book."

All very silly. Whatever you call them, it's still up to individual players, stores, clubs, tournaments to decide what to allow and what not to allow.

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 19:38
GW has made it clear that they are part of the army list now and should not be excluded from the list. Also the characters are toned down quite a bit.

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-03-2007, 19:51
Named Characters are part of the amy list, do not need opponents permission and can be taken in tournaments that don't allow special characters.

There are several WD articles regarding this issue, and the change made to the characters



Hmm, lets see. Special characters are part of the army list and don't need opponents persmission. Just go and look at all the ones in the other books. There are no difference at all. It's just placed in a different part of the army list.
Special character, named lords or whatever you want to call it, it's all the same.

And frankly, I don't care what GW says on the subject, it's really not very relevant for how people run there tournaments.

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 19:54
Special character, named lords or whatever you want to call it, it's all the same.


They are quite diffrent. For the most part Special Characters tend to be more expensive and more powerfull than the named Lords. Also there is little diffrence between a Named Lord and a regular Lord they are not present and part of the army list rather than an apendix in the army book like before.



And frankly, I don't care what GW says on the subject, it's really not very relevant.

Thats fine but the designers made it this way for a reason and that reason is that they want them to be a commonplace item in most armies.

Archaon
16-03-2007, 20:02
When they have been tested to death and found to be balanced.. maybe they will be allowed.

Yet somehow i doubt GW can pull this off since they tend to lose restraint as the books progress and you get the big killing machines in later books.

As has been said.. the wording of the tournaments will be changed to include named characters (since mostly they can't be built exactly like that from the book).
I know that some tournaments in my areas have already included this addition.

Wings of Doom
16-03-2007, 20:06
They are quite diffrent. For the most part Special Characters tend to be more expensive and more powerfull than the named Lords.

The power fo special characters and named lords, along with the points cost, varies for every army, and every special/named character specifically.


Also there is little diffrence between a Named Lord and a regular Lord they are not present and part of the army list rather than an apendix in the army book like before.

Special characters were not an appendix, they were a part of the armylist... thats like saying special untis are more relevant than rare units because they come before them in the army list...

The point is, you can call them named characters, but berating other people who use the term special characters is wrong as they are special characters.

Metal_King
16-03-2007, 20:09
Errrr, thanks for clearing that up guys. I don't think it will be a big problem since this will be a casual army list and not a tournament list.

Scanno
16-03-2007, 20:10
Gotta agree with Wings of Doom here, I'd still call them special characters, and I still wouldn't allow them in any of the tourneys my society and convention run.

Negativemoney
16-03-2007, 21:03
I am saying that there is a clear distinction between those found in the Empire/O&G book compared to those found in the WE/DE and the like. Those found in those books are in the back of the book where the apendix army lists are found (not in WE) but were in no way integrated within the list itself

Not allowing Carl Franz in an Empire army is the same as not allowing a Hellblaster or Steam Tank in an Empire army.

Archaon
16-03-2007, 21:28
Book designs change and game design intentions change.

I didn't have a thorough look at the Empire book and so can't say if the characters are balanced or over the top.

The O/G and Empire ones are the first "true" 7th edition books but that still doesn't change the fact that they are special characters, with special rules and special equipment and GW wants to encourage people to use them by taking away restrictions.

However that doesn't change the fact that most tournaments and many gaming groups will still disallow special or "named" characters. Placing them inside the characters choices doesn't change anything.

DarthBinky
16-03-2007, 21:36
However that doesn't change the fact that most tournaments and many gaming groups will still disallow special or "named" characters.
Do they?

Saying "most people do X..." is meaningless. Give concrete examples.

//devil's advocate

Archaon
16-03-2007, 21:42
Can you read german?

If you can i'll give you some examples.

And you'd have to take my word that no gamer i know personally in my region will field a special or named character without asking before if it would be ok (exluding the mandatory ones for special lists).

DarthBinky
16-03-2007, 21:45
Yes, actually I happen to have a degree in German. :D

I doubt big tournaments like GD disallow SC's though. Local tournaments don't really matter much (local tournaments here in southern Maine allow them... I recently killed Balthasar Gelt during a tournament).

Archaon
16-03-2007, 21:55
Games Workshop tournaments don't really count.. they allow everything because their game is perfect and balanced :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that the new characters are unbalanced because i can't form an opinion since i haven't read their stats, rules etc in depth and haven't used them/played against them but i'm going from the GW track record and that is speaking against them i'm afraid.

And since i'm a cynic i'd also say that GW wants to sell their models and having them restricted to a special chapter and needing opponents permission gives a low incentive in buying them since you'll only use them rarely.

DarthBinky
17-03-2007, 04:41
Games Workshop tournaments don't really count.. they allow everything because their game is perfect and balanced :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that either. It's just that you said "most tournaments" won't allow them. That's what I took issue with- the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Just because a few tournaments around where you live don't allow them doens't mean 'most' tournaments disallow them. That's all I was getting at. :)

Archaon
17-03-2007, 11:09
I may have exaggerated it a bit :angel: but fact is that we have a tabletop tournament website in Germany where tournament organizers can post their tournaments with information and people can sign up via the website. It even has a ranking system and is quite popular in the mainstream tournament scene.

If you understood german and could read the site you'd notice that about 70-80% of the tournaments don't allow special characters and the fact that they changed the placement of such characters in the last two books is just too new to have trickled down in words but i'll exaggerate again and claim that the organizers would disallow named characters too if people started showing up with their O/G and Empire ones.

EvC
17-03-2007, 12:55
Why don't you actually post the link so that Darthbinky can actually read it, since he says he does understand German?

Archaon
17-03-2007, 13:13
http://www.tabletopturniere.de/index.php

Here you go though i believe he was just joking.

EvC
17-03-2007, 14:19
Well it's possible, seems like an odd way to phrase a joke though! I know a little German though so I appreciate the link :)

Ganymede
17-03-2007, 15:17
So I guess we've all summed up the general consensus. You probably shouldn't take the special character Karl Franz simply because you want a dragon, as such would be horrendously expensive. Alas, that's often the curse of taking special characters.

DarthBinky
17-03-2007, 15:25
http://www.tabletopturniere.de/index.php

Here you go though i believe he was just joking.
I wasn't joking. I do have a degree in German, and I lived in Austria for a while. :)

I actually kinda like the rule that I've seen there that you can't take the same character choice three times. So you can have, at most, 3 wizards in a single army.

Chicago Slim
17-03-2007, 15:33
And, regardless of whether or not Binky reads German (funny, so do I-- seems like a German-heavy thread!) his point remains valid: a majority of German tournaments is not the same as a majority of tournaments. Local conditions vary-- around these parts (Chicago, USA) the two major tournaments (GW's own Games Day Chicago and the indepentdent Adepticon) allow special characters (Adepticon puts some limits on them: typically 1 special character per 1000 points). Events at local stores vary-- sometimes they allow them, sometimes they don't.

So, to answer the original question, we'd have to find out what the local conditions near the poster are-- except that he's already stated that he's not really concerned about tournament play, anyway...

TheWarSmith
17-03-2007, 15:39
Slim, you might want to read the Adepticon quote below. They're not allowed this year, at least not in fantasy team. I did just notice however they are allowed in the 2300 point singles tourny.





Not allowing Carl Franz in an Empire army is the same as not allowing a Hellblaster or Steam Tank in an Empire army.

Uh, no!

Here's the reasoning. There are multiple steam tanks. Multiple hellblasters. Multiple knights of the inner circle, cannons, mortars, monkeys, guns, whatever.

There is only ONE Karl Franz, so plunking him down like a regular ol' lord choice isn't "just like using a hellblaster".

Also, for the people questioning tournaments and use of special characters, this is from the Adepticon website:

"Each team is allowed one Lord per 2000 point army. Each army is allowed one model to be upgraded to the army battle standard bearer, however no army is required to take one. Bretonnians do not receive their extra paladin for this purpose. Special Characters are not allowed, period. Should a force wish to use a Lustrian list, a single non-special character level lord will be allowed in place of the mandatory choice."

So would some of you try to argue with the judges and say "Karl Franz is a named Lord, not a special character, so I'm still taking him"

Negativemoney
17-03-2007, 16:04
So then tell me what is the deffinition of a special character?

For those arguing the point that special characters from 6th eddition books are the same as the named Lord/Hero choices from 7th eddition understand one thing. 7th Eddition is a new set of rules, you see this with character mounts not taking up extra hero/special/rare slots any more. There are alot of changes to the army lists present in 7th eddition and this is one of the major changes. Like it or not those characters are part of the army list and can be taken just like any other Lord or Hero choice. This is the designers intent and the direction that GW wants to go with their game.

Note: If you look at the old rules for the characters in the Empire/Orc Books you will see that they are toned down quite a bit and just become a Normal Lord with one ore two small edditions. They are also static so you can't alter them to make them better.

DarthBinky
17-03-2007, 16:12
So then tell me what is the deffinition of a special character?

From page 79 of the rulebook:
"Unique, named characters, those differing from the standard types, are referred to as 'special characters'."

It goes on to list some examples, including Karl Franz.


Note: If you look at the old rules for the characters in the Empire/Orc Books you will see that they are toned down quite a bit and just become a Normal Lord with one ore two small edditions. They are also static so you can't alter them to make them better.
Actually, they're pretty much the same- some things have been reworded, some thing operate slightly differently, but for the most part, they're much the same (at least, for the Empire they are- I don't have the O&G book so I can't speak for them). And they've always been "static". The only difference is now they're actually less 'static', as the Emperor can choose his mount instead of automatically coming with Deathclaw.

EvC
17-03-2007, 17:36
Uh, no!

Here's the reasoning. There are multiple steam tanks. Multiple hellblasters. Multiple knights of the inner circle, cannons, mortars, monkeys, guns, whatever.

There is only ONE Karl Franz, so plunking him down like a regular ol' lord choice isn't "just like using a hellblaster".

Not sure I like that reasoning; it'd mean a DoW army shouldn't take any Regiments of Reknown...

But anyway, talking generally now I expect the real reason is that the organisers want a proper game of troop-oriented Warhammer, not Herohammer with every other army sporting a super-powerful one-hit-wonder.

And despite the trite difference between what counts as a "Special" character and what counts as a "Named" character, I think a 670 point Dragon-riding Emperor somehow counts as being one of those super-powerful one-hit-wonder types...

Archaon
17-03-2007, 17:56
Exactly.. luckily enough we moved away from the pure herohammer fest of 4th/5th edition but GW still managed to introduce heavy hitters via the special character section.

In my 14 years of Warhammer i can count the amount of special characters on the field with one, at most two hands.. they are simply a non-issue and there was a sort of gentleman's agreement that you don't field one unless asking before no matter what the rules say or allow.

This got extended to tournaments until organizers put it in writing in their description which made it final.

I'm not against them at all if they are not over the top.. a Luthor Huss or one of the minor O/G characters is very fine with me but somehow i don't find it appealing to have the race leader prancing around be it Karl Franz, Malekith, Archaon (:D ) or even Nagash himself.