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worldshatterer
06-04-2005, 23:22
Space Marines fight in Chapters, Guard in Regiments, Orks and Chaos in warbands etc . But what is the basic fighting unit of the eldar? its bothered me as i try to think up of fluff for my army, that i don't even understand how the force is structured off the 40k battlefield . The closest thing i've seen as to how Eldar forces are put toghether is in the Wildrider and Titan Clans yet these are considered as barbaric tribalists by other Eldar, so there must be some other model? Anyone care to speculate or put me in the direction of some fluff i'm overlooking?

Comandos
06-04-2005, 23:26
I guess a strike force. But it can also depend on the carftworld they come from:
Biel-Tan Swordwing army
Shim-Ham Wild rider
Alitoc Ranger Force

Etc....

but I like Strike Force the best.

blindhamster
06-04-2005, 23:27
maybe a war host? (eldar seem to be split into craftworlds or aspects more than anything though)

the other idea i like would be like split into parties (similar to the Tau casts) so party for war, party for peace etc.. (thats just an idea nothing more though)

the_yuk
06-04-2005, 23:29
I seem to remember a lot of reference in the older white dwarfe to elder war hosts, so i think that might be the name for there army groups.

Inquisitor Engel
07-04-2005, 00:18
Basically we lack the concrete information on the actual Eldar ruling heirarchy organization to even begin to talk about the Eldar military organization.

Once we know more, it'll be easy to surmise. But right now it's like drawing in the dark. I had long, long posts about it, but they're lost now. :(

I've got my own theories about how the non-military aspects of the Craftworld are organized, but I'm attempting to get them published... so... yeah. Sorry. ;)

the_yuk
07-04-2005, 04:30
Thats alright, let us just hope the new elder codex explains some stuff even if only slightly. Thats why i like the tau cosex so much because it has a brief history and tau orgainisation, but i suppose the tau arnt very old.

GuardianoftheFlame
07-04-2005, 05:02
I know it's a lot to read, but this might help out some.
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD127_Eldar.shtml

Cohinor
07-04-2005, 08:53
In the old Epic 40,000 there was a list of heirarchy

Eldar Warhost

Runeprophet > Units with Warlocks > Units with Exarch > Aspect Warriors > other Units (presuming Guardians)

As for the Eldar Warhost, i don't think that they think in strict numbers and organisation as the other factions like Space Marines or Imperial Guard.

Remember that all Eldar can take up their weapons if needed. So the basic rules for a fighting force can't be forced upon them.

So basically the heirarchy stands with their ranks, and small units allways have the same number of individuals. But you cant say that a warhost consists of lets say 5 guardian squads and 5 aspect warrior squads.

They send what they think is needed. May it be 10 guardians or what so ever.

But true it would be nice to see more about their military organisation for sure. *nods*

greets
Cohinor

Karhedron
07-04-2005, 09:18
In Epic, larger formations are termed Hosts while smaller ones are termed Troupes.

Sai-Lauren
07-04-2005, 10:00
Although Harlequins are also Troupes, and Dark Eldar have Kabals.

I don't think eldar would actually have a formal army structure, static from one campaign to another, what forces would be available for a conflict would depend (there's the d-word being mentioned in terms of something in 40k again ;)) on which craftworld it was, how many eldar were on each path at the time, what the farseers determined was needed and what they were actually trying to do (such as obliterate a human settlement, or prod an ork warlord into actions to take them away from a craftworld).

For what you're doing, either host or warhost is probably sufficient for the overall army, and troupe for the individual parts.

worldshatterer
07-04-2005, 10:13
So we basically have Warhosts and Troupes, but with no particular set composition for either . Farseers in one form or another as the command level, with exarch's and warlocks fulfilling senior NCO/ junior Officer type roles . Well its a start .

I just want to understand how a farseer gets a force under his command, how individual elements of this force interact[do they train toghether?], how long do these fighting units stay toghether as a formation . I just want to know some of the fundamentals of how an Eldar force works . The vagueness never used to bother me, but as everyones armys has gotten clearer on the organisational front the ELdar has remained at the same level of mystery .

Maybe i'm just trying to force an alien race into my limited human mindset . Maybe the Eldar assaemble Warhost's at the click of a Farseers fingers and ride out with no need for forces to train toghether, or to get used to a new commander . Maybe even GW doesn't know? Wheres Gav when you need him!

Laspistol
07-04-2005, 13:01
I imagine an Eldar army works similarly to a Boer Kommando, the basic fighting unit used by the people of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal.

Basically a group of armed men would come together and elect a leader, fighting under him until he was killed, deemed unfit or whatever. Basically the Kommando was a geurilla fighting unit, and was said to have invented the whole practice.

Now, we know the Eldar's basic troops, Guardians, are militia raised from the general populace of the Craftworld. Through the spiritstones in their armor, IIRC, they can hear the voices of those who have worn it in the past, gaining their knowledge of battle. It reduces training time. This is also a given.

What else we know for sure is that those walking the path of the Warlock lead in battle.

So knowing these things, I theorize that when the Farseers require a force they would send their Warlocks out into the populace and the Guardians would begin forming up around them.

I imagine Guardians form up for a tour of duty, as I can see their time in the service disrupting their life-paths, especially if they are on a peaceful path. As to how long that tour is I don't know.

Taking on fighters from the Aspect tempels probably requires petitioning the leading exarch who would then send squads as needed. It seems likely Aspect Warriors train together and stick together until their life path changes. They are probably assigned to an Exarch to train as they are closer to a standing army than anything the Eldar have.

Now, Wraith units and Avatars are woken up by the Eldar command on an as-needed basis from what I can see, similar to Guardians.

Vehicles are likely crewed from the Guardians raised up by the Warlocks.

So, everything operates like one enourmous Kommando. I would summize the Eldar command structure is probably more fluid and democratic than that of other races where discipline is inherent to Craftworld Eldar life and decisions involve more than a small elite of generals, and a lot of emphasis is placed on the abilities of the Warlocks to think quickly and make decisions localy as the situation warrants.

Upper echelons of command probably serve in a greater capacity as inspiration and psychic support for the middle ranks, and the source of grand strategy.

So, am I answering questions or talking out my ass ?

worldshatterer
07-04-2005, 14:13
i think thats an excellent idea, i just wish the guys in the studio who are payed to write this sort of thing could come up with it!

As a side note Eldar Exarches gain the wisdom of all the spirit stones in the armour as it forms a mini-infinity matrix .

Aspects, Warlocks and Guardians have a psychic suppresor in their helmets which allows them to fight fight without compassion or remorse, i doubt they have soul stones other than their own on their armour as this would represent an unacceptable risk .

I'm not sure about guardians and tours of duty, that seems more appropriate to the standing army of black guardians, than the standard issue ones who are the equivalent of peasants with pitchforks.

Vehicles are crewed by guardians, hence the bs 4 on USF vehicles .

Aspect warriors live outside the temple only going their to train briefly, only the Exarches live their permanently[thats straight from the second ed codex]. IIRC In order to maintain balance in their psyche an Eldar on the path of the warrior also walks another path[ such as the path of the limp wristed hair dresser, or the path of i'm prettier than legolas!], as the path of the warrior draws on the deepest emotions which eldar fear to feel lest they fall into chaos .

Karhedron
07-04-2005, 15:19
Now, we know the Eldar's basic troops, Guardians, are militia raised from the general populace of the Craftworld. Through the spiritstones in their armor, IIRC, they can hear the voices of those who have worn it in the past, gaining their knowledge of battle. It reduces training time. This is also a given.
Only Exarchs gan the benefits of spirit stones in their suits IIRC. Guardians have way stones incorporated into their armour to save their souls should they be killed in battle. They also have spirit stones that perform more mundane functions such as communications etc. Basically Eldar use a lot of psychic technology in place of electronics.


Aspects, Warlocks and Guardians have a psychic suppresor in their helmets which allows them to fight fight without compassion or remorse
They don't actually have psychic supressors as such. Rather their training as warriors includes training in how to supress the parts of their psyche that might experience remorse or pity. The donning of the helmets is part of the ritual but there is nothing inherently active in the helmet that changes them. If an Eldar were to simply pick up a helmet and put it on without without the associated training and rituals, there would probably be no effect.

Sai-Lauren
07-04-2005, 16:32
They don't actually have psychic supressors as such. Rather their training as warriors includes training in how to supress the parts of their psyche that might experience remorse or pity. The donning of the helmets is part of the ritual but there is nothing inherently active in the helmet that changes them. If an Eldar were to simply pick up a helmet and put it on without without the associated training and rituals, there would probably be no effect.

Yes, going back to the birth of the aspect warriors (Wd127), those on the path of the warrior split their mindset, at peace, they become the artists, poets, sculptors and so on - offsetting the destructive, warrior parts of the collective eldar psyche, but when the call to war sounds, they go to their temples, and began the various rituals of arming themselves, carefully shifting their peaceful psyche to one side, and bringing the warrior aspect out to play. By the time they've actually donned their masks, they're ready to rock and roll.;) But the mask itself, whilst having lots of useful equipment (it's supposedly equivalent to power armour in the amount of gear like comms, respirators etc, although of very different functionality, plus all the actual aspect specific equipment like the banshee mask, mandiblasters, hawk wing controls and reaper targetters), is simply part of the armour - the warrior could be bare-headed with a band of psychic pickups round his forehead, and maybe a respirator and eye-piece, and they'd still be as good.

After the conflict, they reverse the process - presumably there's rituals of returning to their temple, which those who become exarchs just never quite get the full benefit from. The wargear of such a warrior may even have some residual empathic imprint from it's owner, so an eldar may feel uneasy if they picked it up.

Khaine's Messenger
08-04-2005, 07:03
Basically we lack the concrete information on the actual Eldar ruling heirarchy organization to even begin to talk about the Eldar military organization.
(...)
I've got my own theories about how the non-military aspects of the Craftworld are organized, but I'm attempting to get them published... so... yeah. Sorry. ;)

Did you miss Kage's thread about Tir'asur below? I tried to draw out a conversation since he just made a monster mad-dash to post a ton of stuff at once...I was the only one to reply, I think. I don't think he's been back in a while, though.

worldshatterer
08-04-2005, 18:38
It still doesn't change the fact that we don't much about how Eldar are organised from the official fluff . AFAIK Kage 2020's theories while good and well thought are not the product of the GW corporation . In fact i doubt GW would put the same of detail and effort into thinking about how Eldar are organised, preferring to rely on the old "but they're a mysterious alien race" excuse.

Khaine's Messenger
08-04-2005, 19:30
True, but it's a lot more fun to speculate and discuss than just stall discussion by making everything an unsolvable mystery. I was also just advertising his thread. ;)