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View Full Version : What parts of Codex DA will become apart of SM redux?



redbaron998
16-03-2007, 02:33
I think we can say these things are givens:

Goodbye to Terminator Honors, cheaper LSTs, 2 Heavy Weapons in Terminator squads, cheaper chaplains, cheap extra armor

Also we can expect:

The standard equipment

Possible 5/10 split but some debate.

Also the Manstopper shotguns (though this is still very much in the air for everyone (Ig, SM, etc..))

Scouts as Elites

We will obviously not see in the redux:

Deathwing, ravenwing, Interrogater chaplains(though may have same thing under another name) ,

Leunam
16-03-2007, 04:04
I thought the rumor for a Space Marine Redux was put to rest?

Vic
16-03-2007, 04:06
Nah, someone who thinks the SM dex is broken will always find a way to dredge this up LOL

starlight
16-03-2007, 04:33
Dear sweet Lord!:rolleyes:

There *will* be another Space Marine Codex! In several YEARS.:rolleyes: How about we play with the one we've got before we ransack this one with speculative changes that will likely all come to naught. Let's see what the other sub-codexes have to offer, to say nothing of the various Xenos books which will likely be chock full of nifty ideas for the Marines to pillage in their turn.

Enough already.......:eyebrows:

Ian Argent
16-03-2007, 04:43
In particular, lets see what happens with the Blood Angels. If/when they get a real 4th ed codex, we'll know more about the direction GW is taking marines. (I do believe the DA are the wave of the future, but one codex isn't enough).

Hulkster
16-03-2007, 09:47
ok

There should me a new SM dex out at the end of next year, many of the best rumor mongers have said so (namely Brimstone)

What is in we donrt know

there has been loads of threads about this, I think another one is till running

can we please sop talking about it until nearer the time of its probable release (at least 12 months away)

Mojaco
16-03-2007, 11:08
Why stop talking?
It's interesting and everyone who doesn't care just shouldn't read. forums can be so simple in that regard...


I expect all the price hikes on standard equipment to continue, like rhinos and drop pod.

I expect Redux will have more psychic powers, still a trait system (but hopefully with every advantage coming with one automatic disadvantage).

I'm not sure if scouts will go eilite in redux. I think for upstart chapter they fit in the troops slot, not in elite. For DA I agreed, especially since you can move a different elite to troops (termies), but not for redux. Unless ofcourse this works like the termies, that when you pick an 'upstart trait' you get scouts as troops.

Other then that, I expect attack bike squadrons to return since DA just didn't need them, and lighter versions of characters like the librarian and chaplain.
I'm curious if dreads will be allowed autocannons and plasma cannons and such, I've got no clue there.

Gutlord Grom
16-03-2007, 12:10
I think we can say these things are givens:

Goodbye to Terminator Honors, cheaper LSTs, 2 Heavy Weapons in Terminator squads, cheaper chaplains, cheap extra armor

Also we can expect:

The standard equipment

Possible 5/10 split but some debate.

Also the Manstopper shotguns (though this is still very much in the air for everyone (Ig, SM, etc..))

Scouts as Elites

We will obviously not see in the redux:

Deathwing, ravenwing, Interrogater chaplains(though may have same thing under another name) ,

I would say keep Termintor honors , just because it's a choice, and choice is generally good.

Scouts would be okay without man stopper rounds becdause sniping scouts are IMHO much better at what they do. Moving them to elite will just make them less of a option to use, and would make Space Marine troop choices limited.

Maybe Battle Squads should be a trait, and a choice as to whether you want to be uber strict codex.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-03-2007, 12:20
I would say keep Termintor honors , just because it's a choice, and choice is generally good.

Scouts would be okay without man stopper rounds becdause sniping scouts are IMHO much better at what they do. Moving them to elite will just make them less of a option to use, and would make Space Marine troop choices limited.

Maybe Battle Squads should be a trait, and a choice as to whether you want to be uber strict codex.

I'd bet in SM redux there will be no terminator honors - to prevent ubber character of doom.

Scout should get manstopper rounds - also i think they should be elite unless you take trait "scout company" which will enable scout as troops and masters gains choice to get scout armour.

Also Combat Squad should be default to every chapter - 90% of them are codex !!! OMFG you say it should be choice ??? /funny that on tabletop such squads give much less flexibility :P /

And say goodbye to armoury :) - and 15 pts power fist :D

Captain Micha
16-03-2007, 12:20
maybe for vet serjs keep termie honors... but it should be assumed that a CHAPTER MASTER or CAPTAIN or LIBRARIAN should already have them.

I think though that scouts -do- need the option to take man stoppers.... Afterall my bt based list would love you all very much then! Love you long time!

the biggest thing that needs to change with 40k period is the ridiculous ap of weapons. nerf all basic trooper guns to be at best ap 6. (sorry too much ap 4 and 5... want proof? My tau are better in close combat than they are at shooting... wtf!)

The heavy bolter should be what the bolter is at. (I'm sorry its a bolter... no other gun breaks the progression of a guns archetype.. why should it) the auto cannon can stay as it is I think. and the you know what gun needs to change but thats a given.

Then maybe Orks would actually be viable with less changes required to -them- and then 4+ and 5+ armor actually -might- mean something for things other than the assault phase.

But then marines would complain about how many more saves their opponent gets to make that his 3+ armor of doom doesn't feel as special... **** too bad. 4+ is a 50 percent protection rate.... how is it -every- weapon almost in the game that is above basic trooper status rips through it like a hot knife through butter... 5+ is a 30 percent.... something tells me 5+ was made to be able to -stop- basic trooper guns at least -some- of the time. (yes I realise I am calling gauss, bolter, shuriken, plasma particle induction, basic but this is the 41st milenium) the main perk of 3+ should be that weapons that are usually seen on vehicles it has a chance of stopping... where as 4+ no.... think about it battlecannon being ap 4 instead of 3. you shoot a tau squad they all die. shoot a rine and he wipes the black soot off his face and keeps coming. termie armor suddenly fits fluff. (plasma reactor maintainence suit and all....) it doesn't really change when rines get their save because typically anything that is going through his armor is already ap 2..... note meltas should stay as is. why? the melta rule unlike the rest of the guns in the game actually works......

its not that armies are broken. the stupid high ap of all the weapons is..... (and of course the ork ap 6 weapon becomes ap - see even their armor suddenly has a use!)

The Emperor
16-03-2007, 13:23
Maybe Battle Squads should be a trait, and a choice as to whether you want to be uber strict codex.

That makes no sense. So you'd need Traits to get the most common type of Space Marine army? That's ridiculous, nevermind going against the whole idea of the Trait system, which is to represent Chapters which deviate from the Codex. So when I'm picking the Trait to become a Codex Chapter, can I also take the Trait that lets me turn Veteran Sergeants into Apothecaries (Non-Codex behavior)?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-03-2007, 13:29
maybe for vet serjs keep termie honors... but it should be assumed that a CHAPTER MASTER or CAPTAIN or LIBRARIAN should already have them.

I think though that scouts -do- need the option to take man stoppers.... Afterall my bt based list would love you all very much then! Love you long time!

the biggest thing that needs to change with 40k period is the ridiculous ap of weapons. nerf all basic trooper guns to be at best ap 6. (sorry too much ap 4 and 5... want proof? My tau are better in close combat than they are at shooting... wtf!)

The heavy bolter should be what the bolter is at. (I'm sorry its a bolter... no other gun breaks the progression of a guns archetype.. why should it) the auto cannon can stay as it is I think. and the you know what gun needs to change but thats a given.

Then maybe Orks would actually be viable with less changes required to -them- and then 4+ and 5+ armor actually -might- mean something for things other than the assault phase.

But then marines would complain about how many more saves their opponent gets to make that his 3+ armor of doom doesn't feel as special... **** too bad. 4+ is a 50 percent protection rate.... how is it -every- weapon almost in the game that is above basic trooper status rips through it like a hot knife through butter... 5+ is a 30 percent.... something tells me 5+ was made to be able to -stop- basic trooper guns at least -some- of the time. (yes I realise I am calling gauss, bolter, shuriken, plasma particle induction, basic but this is the 41st milenium) the main perk of 3+ should be that weapons that are usually seen on vehicles it has a chance of stopping... where as 4+ no.... think about it battlecannon being ap 4 instead of 3. you shoot a tau squad they all die. shoot a rine and he wipes the black soot off his face and keeps coming. termie armor suddenly fits fluff. (plasma reactor maintainence suit and all....) it doesn't really change when rines get their save because typically anything that is going through his armor is already ap 2..... note meltas should stay as is. why? the melta rule unlike the rest of the guns in the game actually works......

its not that armies are broken. the stupid high ap of all the weapons is..... (and of course the ork ap 6 weapon becomes ap - see even their armor suddenly has a use!)

Nice idea Dude !!! That saves actually give sth in shooting - i think that only basic weapons should be changet - make bolter-like S4 AP6 make sense, as well as ordance weapons like battle cannon AP 4 and that basilisc gun AP 3

Gutlord Grom
16-03-2007, 14:02
I'd bet in SM redux there will be no terminator honors - to prevent ubber character of doom.

Scout should get manstopper rounds - also i think they should be elite unless you take trait "scout company" which will enable scout as troops and masters gains choice to get scout armour.

Also Combat Squad should be default to every chapter - 90% of them are codex !!! OMFG you say it should be choice ??? /funny that on tabletop such squads give much less flexibility :P /

And say goodbye to armoury :) - and 15 pts power fist :D

A Space Marine Character gets six attacks at Strength 4 at best. There are pretty standard for every melle character in the game. I find the Scout Company thing okay, and man stoppers are fine.

How did you get 90% makes no sense at all. A Combat squafd is not awesome for one reason. It will die from any turn of determined shooting. Or any shooting for that matter. It has low ablative shielding, and since there are many AP3 weapons out there, or just Strength five, your going to either panic them or kill them.


maybe for vet serjs keep termie honors... but it should be assumed that a CHAPTER MASTER or CAPTAIN or LIBRARIAN should already have them.

I think though that scouts -do- need the option to take man stoppers.... Afterall my bt based list would love you all very much then! Love you long time!

the biggest thing that needs to change with 40k period is the ridiculous ap of weapons. nerf all basic trooper guns to be at best ap 6. (sorry too much ap 4 and 5... want proof? My tau are better in close combat than they are at shooting... wtf!)

The heavy bolter should be what the bolter is at. (I'm sorry its a bolter... no other gun breaks the progression of a guns archetype.. why should it) the auto cannon can stay as it is I think. and the you know what gun needs to change but thats a given.

Then maybe Orks would actually be viable with less changes required to -them- and then 4+ and 5+ armor actually -might- mean something for things other than the assault phase.

But then marines would complain about how many more saves their opponent gets to make that his 3+ armor of doom doesn't feel as special... **** too bad. 4+ is a 50 percent protection rate.... how is it -every- weapon almost in the game that is above basic trooper status rips through it like a hot knife through butter... 5+ is a 30 percent.... something tells me 5+ was made to be able to -stop- basic trooper guns at least -some- of the time. (yes I realise I am calling gauss, bolter, shuriken, plasma particle induction, basic but this is the 41st milenium) the main perk of 3+ should be that weapons that are usually seen on vehicles it has a chance of stopping... where as 4+ no.... think about it battlecannon being ap 4 instead of 3. you shoot a tau squad they all die. shoot a rine and he wipes the black soot off his face and keeps coming. termie armor suddenly fits fluff. (plasma reactor maintainence suit and all....) it doesn't really change when rines get their save because typically anything that is going through his armor is already ap 2..... note meltas should stay as is. why? the melta rule unlike the rest of the guns in the game actually works......

its not that armies are broken. the stupid high ap of all the weapons is..... (and of course the ork ap 6 weapon becomes ap - see even their armor suddenly has a use!)
A Battle Cannon insta kills Marines because it is strength 8. It would kill them anyway. And you seem stuch in the common conceit trhat just because the Weapon isn't AP3 it can't kill Marines. This is a game decided by dice, not Mathhammer.

You're in the furture. Is it really so hard to believe that a weapon might be advanced enough to defeat armor.

Templar Ben
16-03-2007, 14:06
Generally speaking weapons are better than the armor. I see no reason to change that system. Then again I don't fully understand the idea of not shooting someone and instead killing them with a chainsaw.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-03-2007, 14:15
A Space Marine Character gets six attacks at Strength 4 at best. There are pretty standard for every melle character in the game. I find the Scout Company thing okay, and man stoppers are fine.

How did you get 90% makes no sense at all. A Combat squafd is not awesome for one reason. It will die from any turn of determined shooting. Or any shooting for that matter. It has low ablative shielding, and since there are many AP3 weapons out there, or just Strength five, your going to either panic them or kill them.


I meant that most chapter use codex force organisation and 5-10 man split to be honest. not that 90% are full codex chapters. A space marine chracter gets six attacks at re-roll to wound S4 at best or S8 I1. or 6 S4 re-roll everything including 4+ invunerable save. and T5. it is not standard for mainly commanding character - chaos,orcs should have such combat monsters. not astartes./i'm playing marines of some sort in Poland,so i know how to break HQ/

edit: or 6 S5 I7 re-roll everything including 4+ invunerable save. and T5/bike/ not instant killed/ if we want something really broken

Captain Micha
16-03-2007, 14:16
thats kind of my point templar *L* why should 4+ers (who are generally shootists) enjoy cc more than the use of their big guns?

given that armor will always invariably keep up with offensive technology yes it is rather hard to believe *L*

Ian Argent
16-03-2007, 14:19
Stay on target - there aren't going to be stat changes to any weapons in a Codex Redux. Points changes are a given, but stat changes aren't going to happen.

My best guess is: Start with C: DA non-ravenwing/deathwing sections. I actually at this point suspect scouts may stay in Troops, giving the DA a faint disadvantage to make up for having both Ravenwing and Deathwing. Some individual characters will have more options than the C: DA ones so you can build "named" characters that have some of the toys that current named characters have. But they will all be 0-1 choices and it will be made clear that these are the "named" characters of your chapter. IE, Company Captain and Chapter Master will not share the same entry with 2 different statlines - they will have different entries and different wargear options. Likewise librarians and chief librarians, and company chaplains and chapter chaplains. Psychic powers will be toned down considerably.

I have no idea what the trait system will look like, other than it will be completely changed.

Variable squad sizes will be an option, but not the default.

Gutlord Grom
16-03-2007, 14:26
thats kind of my point templar *L* why should 4+ers (who are generally shootists) enjoy cc more than the use of their big guns?

given that armor will always invariably keep up with offensive technology yes it is rather hard to believe *L*
Actually, it's the other way around. Armor has to keep up with weapons, and generally the armor is found lacking.


I meant that most chapter use codex force organisation and 5-10 man split to be honest. not that 90% are full codex chapters. A space marine chracter gets six attacks at re-roll to wound S4 at best or S8 I1. or 6 S4 re-roll everything including 4+ invunerable save. and T5. it is not standard for mainly commanding character - chaos,orcs should have such combat monsters. not astartes./i'm playing marines of some sort in Poland,so i know how to break HQ/

edit: or 6 S5 I7 re-roll everything including 4+ invunerable save. and T5/bike/ not instant killed/ if we want something really broken

A Space Marine commander on a bike can be autokilled. His toughness does not protect him from being insta killed. Space Marines oive to prove their honor, and they're's nothing more honourable then choking your opponent to death. It puts you on the same level as your opponent. But since yourstill alive, you're better then. But the power fist is iniative one. Orks strike before that, and if you got a nob or some other unit leader you can kill them.
Habve you ever played against a Khorne Berzerker Lord or an Eldar Avatar/ Those are combat monsters, who are more teryfying.

Wolflord Havoc
16-03-2007, 14:27
I think that you will get the basic layout as per C:DA

Traits will be replaced or dulled down slightly. Not too sure how I would go about that.

I think that Troops will be limited to Tactical Squads which will be identical to the entry in C:DA

HQ Models will include specific Company Masters - 1st Coy (Veteren Squad), Scout Coy (Scout Squad), Assault Coy (Assault Squad), Devestator Coy (Devestator Squad) etc and taking one of these allows you to take the corrisponding squad type as a Troop choice.

I.E. Taking the Master of the 9th Coy Allows the player to pick Devestator Squads as Troop Choices (perhaps no more than there are Tactical Squads) so effectively up to 3.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-03-2007, 14:51
Actually, it's the other way around. Armor has to keep up with weapons, and generally the armor is found lacking.



A Space Marine commander on a bike can be autokilled. His toughness does not protect him from being insta killed. Space Marines oive to prove their honor, and they're's nothing more honourable then choking your opponent to death. It puts you on the same level as your opponent. But since yourstill alive, you're better then. But the power fist is iniative one. Orks strike before that, and if you got a nob or some other unit leader you can kill them.
Habve you ever played against a Khorne Berzerker Lord or an Eldar Avatar/ Those are combat monsters, who are more teryfying.

One word - Adamantine Mantle. No instant kill 35 pts relic.

I played agnaist both and trust me every character can be killed it only requires some cc oriented squad - Avatar is dead if 2 squads charge him with lets say Power Fist - 8-10-12 S8 attack usually do good job. he as every MC is usually 1-3 wounds short at the start of assault phase. Berzerker Lord charged by aforementioned Librarian is statisicaly dead before make his attacks. or he kills me - depend of who is better general.

My point is - Space Marine character are for leading their people not kill entire enemy army single handed. leave this for Chaos Lords and Ork Warboss.

Gutlord Grom
16-03-2007, 14:58
One word - Adamantine Mantle. No instant kill 35 pts relic.

I played agnaist both and trust me every character can be killed it only requires some cc oriented squad - Avatar is dead if 2 squads charge him with lets say Power Fist - 8-10-12 S8 attack usually do good job. he as every MC is usually 1-3 wounds short at the start of assault phase. Berzerker Lord charged by aforementioned Librarian is statisicaly dead before make his attacks. or he kills me - depend of who is better general.

My point is - Space Marine character are for leading their people not kill entire enemy army single handed. leave this for Chaos Lords and Ork Warboss.
No, they kill the big bad guys in the Background and in the books. It's basically in every book, and it gets alot of mention in DOW the game.
The power fist strikes at intiative one. If your avatar is getting charged by two squads with power fists, it will still die. Anything would die. Even you mentioned doom character. Remember you can only take casaulties from targets within two inches.

The Admantium Mantle still makes you lose a wound, and your double powerfists would kill it.

Ian Argent
16-03-2007, 15:21
If you charge an Avatar with 2 squads, he cannot clear the killzone; read how targeting works in CC. That's why Assault Squads benefit from Combat Squads. The avatar can only allocate attacks to one unit at a time. No mattter what, a powerfist survives if you charge him with 2 in 2 separate units.

IAMNOTHERE
16-03-2007, 15:32
A power fist survives if you charge him with 1 in one unit. No aatar Iknow of has 6 attacks.

Ian Argent
16-03-2007, 15:45
But with one unit, the avatar could concievably clear the killzone - if the avatar kills all the B2B models, the powerfist cannot strike, because he is neither in B2B nor within 2" of a model in B2B.

guillimansknight
16-03-2007, 16:05
A Battle Cannon insta kills Marines because it is strength 8. It would kill them anyway. And you seem stuch in the common conceit trhat just because the Weapon isn't AP3 it can't kill Marines. This is a game decided by dice, not Mathhammer.

You're in the furture. Is it really so hard to believe that a weapon might be advanced enough to defeat armor.


"It is easier to kill 1,000,000 people than it is to govern them"

Gutlord Grom
16-03-2007, 17:36
"It is easier to kill 1,000,000 people than it is to govern them"

:confused: :wtf:


What the hell?

Zappa
16-03-2007, 18:01
Ok back to topic
I think that you will be paying for squads insted of paynig per model, like in the new DA dex.
And I think that characters will be moved in to the armylist like orcs for fantasy and the DA.

Champsguy
16-03-2007, 20:46
I have it on good authority that the new SM dex will take a bit from DA codex.

Cheaper Rhinos and Razorbacks.
Everyone gets free krak and frag grenades.

That is all. Except they lower the cost of Marines to 12 points a model.

eldaran
16-03-2007, 20:52
Personally, i would like them to take the Veterans into the codex, since you can get veterans in your troops choices by usng the right traits. I think that combat squads should make the journey, but i don't think there should be the current trend of a lack of Armoury. Personally, i think that SM vehicles are reasonably priced at the moment, so don't have a problem with them.

Does anyone have a good authority on whether or not a SM redux is being done. As long as they don't get rid of Traits, Termie honours or the Armoury, i really don't care...


Added Later:

And I hope GW don't pander to the "amadna" who moan that the Codex is broken simply because they have:
seen a lot of blue-painted genetically-enhanced models/got beat bad simply by a better player/hasn't anything else to moan about.

redbaron998
16-03-2007, 21:21
That is all. Except they lower the cost of Marines to 12 points a model.

yea ok

Plus there are a few things we know will be added that you didnt have like

1 heavy weap in Termie squads and no T. Honors on characters

Mojaco
16-03-2007, 21:32
Well, we don't "know" anything, do we? And ofcourse he was joking with the 12 pt marines. Don't fall for that :)

redbaron998
16-03-2007, 21:35
I know we dont "know" anything

but logic would suggest those things...of course it is logic and GW and those things dont go toghther well

EmperorEternalXIX
16-03-2007, 21:40
None, because there isn't going to be a redux.

Onisuzume
16-03-2007, 21:47
I think that you will get the basic layout as per C: DA
Well, that's pretty obvious. Lets see... Orcs, Eldar, Empire, DA, and probably all future codices/army books for the current editions.

Traits will be replaced or dulled down slightly. Not too sure how I would go about that.
Or at least rebalanced.
Some traits are barely every seen.

I think that Troops will be limited to Tactical Squads which will be identical to the entry in C: DA
I guess it's possible they'll do this.

HQ Models will include specific Company Masters - 1st Coy (Veteren Squad), Scout Coy (Scout Squad), Assault Coy (Assault Squad), Devestator Coy (Devestator Squad) etc and taking one of these allows you to take the corrisponding squad type as a Troop choice.

I.E. Taking the Master of the 9th Coy Allows the player to pick Devestator Squads as Troop Choices (perhaps no more than there are Tactical Squads) so effectively up to 3.
Though this would be pretty much overpowered combined with the current traits. (honour your wargear combined with devastator company master allows up to 9 devastator squads... add combat squads rule and you'll hear a *lot* of people crying:cheese:. they might even turn into the new IW.)
Or, if it's done like Belial/Sammael; up to 12! devastaror squads. (unlikely you'd field all of them unless playing large point battles, but still)

Same kinda goes with the assault one. (though it's slightly less overpowered due to it's strength at mle instead of shooting)

That is all. Except they lower the cost of Marines to 12 points a model.
Sure, lets lower the cost of all troops by 3!
That way I can field even bigger hordes of Tyranids! (2 points/gaunt instead of 5? Gimme! I'd gladly field a fluffy and huge horde of them then. 384 points for 192 gaunts then instead of the current 960 points)
But do note, however, that instead of your marines being outnumbered 3 to 1, you'd be outnumbered 6 to 1. *gg*(good game)
And that's just counting the gaunts.
It'd also leave me with tons of points for Warriors, raveners/gargoyles, zoanthropes, biovores, 'fexes.

Ian Argent
16-03-2007, 21:59
Anyone who thinks the armoury will stay in a Codex Redux is dreaming, considering the last few codices. That doesn't mean that the options in the armoury won't be available to characters in the codex, just that not all options will be available to everyone...

fazzgd
17-03-2007, 02:42
Terminator Honors : Death
Armoury : Survival

It thinks.

Grand Master Raziel
17-03-2007, 03:52
Anyone who thinks the armoury will stay in a Codex Redux is dreaming, considering the last few codices. That doesn't mean that the options in the armoury won't be available to characters in the codex, just that not all options will be available to everyone...

Removing the armory was a bad idea, and it's one that I think is proving unpopular enough that GW will give a rethink to the idea of removing it from any future books.

Now, as to what may or may not appear in a SM: Redux, the only changes from Codex: Dark Angels that I'd actually want to see would be the frags, kraks, and bolt pistols for base price, and a similar treatment for Veteran Squads. I wouldn't mind seeing the Combat Squads rule instated if it was rewritten so it was something you could actually use during the course of the game, as opposed to having to decide to split the squads at deployment, which is almost useless. I also wouldn't mind the slightly cheaper Rhinos, but I think that they should just come with Extra Armor and Smokes for the base 50pts - bumping up Extra Armor to 15 points is just stupid. That's only 5 points less than Daemonic Possession, which is a far, far better upgrade. I could live with the 5/10 squad size format for most squads - I'd like it tweaked a little, but it wouldn't much effect my current play style if it were cut-and-pasted right from Codex: Dark Angels. I actively dislike the new style of codex layout. I could live with it, but would prefer that the dubious flirtation with it come to an end.

The rest of what's in Codex: Dark Angels should be considered a failed experiment. The things that bug me the most are the removal of the Armory, the up-costing of most of the decent gun tanks, and the "toning down" of the assault cannon by not actually addressing the perceived lack of balance of the AC itself but by nerfing the hell out of the units that happen to have the option of carrying the AC. That last point is particularly important because it also punishes players who use those units but don't engage in AC-spam. I've never seen anyone complain about a pair of heavy flamers or Cyclone missile launchers in termie squads. It was only when GW tooled up the AC that it started to be perceived to be a problem. So, I, for one, hope that we won't be seeing the next iteration of Codex: Space Marines for many years. That'll give the Development team the time to work on some of the Xenos dexes that could use an overhaul, and also time to get over the current kick in dex-development that they're on. If you asked me which of those considerations was more important, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 05:12
Removing the armory was a bad idea, and it's one that I think is proving unpopular enough that GW will give a rethink to the idea of removing it from any future books.

The armoury is gone for game balance reasons; different units can now have differing costs for wargear based on more than just how many wounds they have, and differing characters may be limited to different sets of equipment. A unified armoury allows neither of these things. I see this as a positive, you seem to see this as a negative.


Now, as to what may or may not appear in a SM: Redux, the only changes from Codex: Dark Angels that I'd actually want to see would be the frags, kraks, and bolt pistols for base price, and a similar treatment for Veteran Squads. I wouldn't mind seeing the Combat Squads rule instated if it was rewritten so it was something you could actually use during the course of the game, as opposed to having to decide to split the squads at deployment, which is almost useless.

Regarding combat squads being useless unless you could split in the middle of the game: What's stopping you from splitting your squads and then keeping them together as one meta-unit until you need to split them? It makes rhinos mildly inconvenient, having to make two trips to lift both halves of the squad, but at the same time, half of the squad in each case can stand still to fire at long range/fire heavy weapons while the other half is being moved. And since everyone is convinced that Rhinos are rolling deathtraps, I don't see this as a serious problem.



I also wouldn't mind the slightly cheaper Rhinos, but I think that they should just come with Extra Armor and Smokes for the base 50pts - bumping up Extra Armor to 15 points is just stupid. That's only 5 points less than Daemonic Possession, which is a far, far better upgrade.

The 3 "options" that changed in C: DA for vehicles (Searchlight, smoke, and Extra Armor) all have one thing in common. Smoke and Extra Armor were always taken, and searchlights were never taken unless you had nothing else to fit in those points. Smoke and Searchlights were taken out of options and made mandatory. Extra armor, though, should not be a base part of kit. And at the old points value, it was basically mandatory - a no-brainer. Everyone took it by default. At this point, then, you have two options, either make it part of the base vehicle after all, or make it less of a mandatory choice. The game designers chose opiton b - make it an option. So they pretty much had to increase it's points cost. From my point of view, Extra Armor has been undercosted from the begininng, and the opinion of it being a "must" for upgrades only reinforces my opinion; if it was costed properly, it wouldn't get taken in all circumstances because other options would be competing for its points.


I could live with the 5/10 squad size format for most squads - I'd like it tweaked a little, but it wouldn't much effect my current play style if it were cut-and-pasted right from Codex: Dark Angels. I actively dislike the new style of codex layout. I could live with it, but would prefer that the dubious flirtation with it come to an end.

A complaint about how pure codex marines are supposed to be fielded per the background, combined with a second-guessing of the layout. I found the layout to be very hard to grasp on the first reading; it is a layout designed not for browsing, but for reference. The book is not laid out for the casual read, but rather for long-term usage. I am now finding myself referring to just the last few pages for points values, which is much handier than trying to do the same thing with C: SM, let me tell you. I've been doing most of my referencing for points values out of army builder (and doublechecking with the codex later).


The rest of what's in Codex: Dark Angels should be considered a failed experiment. The things that bug me the most are the removal of the Armory, the up-costing of most of the decent gun tanks, and the "toning down" of the assault cannon by not actually addressing the perceived lack of balance of the AC itself but by nerfing the hell out of the units that happen to have the option of carrying the AC. That last point is particularly important because it also punishes players who use those units but don't engage in AC-spam. I've never seen anyone complain about a pair of heavy flamers or Cyclone missile launchers in termie squads. It was only when GW tooled up the AC that it started to be perceived to be a problem. So, I, for one, hope that we won't be seeing the next iteration of Codex: Space Marines for many years. That'll give the Development team the time to work on some of the Xenos dexes that could use an overhaul, and also time to get over the current kick in dex-development that they're on. If you asked me which of those considerations was more important, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

I addressed the armoury already. Are you actually upset about the loss of the armoury as it stands, or the options contained in it? IE, that Dark Angels unnamed characters lost access to Adamatine Mantles, artificer armour, etc (that named characters still have), or that Terminator Honors are gone? In the first case, I doubt the Redux will completely remove those options from DIY "named" characters (though the lower ranks may lose some of the 'bling'.) It'll just be in their entries, not in an armoury.

The Assault Cannon cannot have its rules and stats changed within the current edition, at least once the Black Templar codex was printed (and arguably once the Wargear book was printed). Otherwise we'd be in the situation where different codices with the same-named weapon have different stats for that weapon. We have enough trouble with the Inquisition's Assault Cannons right now...

Not all platforms for the Assault cannon got a bump in cost for the platform - Terminators are a couple of points cheaper than they were pre-codex (given the cost of Stubborn). And it's not like the Dreadnought did in fact get a price bump across the board; the Plasma Cannon dread costs exactly the same as he did pre-C: DA, and the MM option and the heavy flamer upgrade costs got cheaper. (Less than the additional cost for the hull, so they are mildly more expensive than before). As for Landspeeders, it looks like the base hull went up in cost not because it can carry an assault cannon, but because the heavy bolter was too good relative to the multi-melta - the way the points-change happened, the heavy bolter became more expensive, and the multi-melta stayed at the same (relative) points cost, as it is a no-points upgrade. And, you will note, the landspeeder can now have a multi-melta/AC combo, which is a wicked combination for hunting tanks and monstrous creatures. Or it can have a flamer/HB combo, a very good combo for horde-hunting. The additional mix/match there I think justifies the slightly higher cost of the speeder.

I don't think the increase in points costs for the specific options cited is at all over-reacting. The predator is only more expensive if you take the all-lascannon variant; and I don't think that's out of line. The autocannon predator is at least as cheap as it was before (potentially much cheaper), and the Annihilator w/ HB is also cheaper. the Predator is a quite decent "gun tank" in all it's incarnations.

For my own forces, the changes in C: DA have made me: look at a predator for the first time since 2ed (I have one of the old round-turreted autocannon preds, though the sponsons are the Mk.2 "Blockhouse" HB sponsons), look at Ravenwing in general, and actually field more marines in my forces instead of stocking up on Dreadnoughts and Scouts. Shocking, I know :confused:

Duhgame
17-03-2007, 05:17
There will probably be a better trait system, the editing of no-brainer choices, and more limitations put on the assualt cannon.

I am very certain that they will give the basic LR a boost since few people use it. The LRC is a much better choice, how they will upgrade it I am unsure, even a points drop won't help because of the whole "mixed roles" problem. Hopefully they will allow each gun on the basic LR *only* to target different things and at a reduced accuracy while on the move. See the Choas version "infernal engine" I think, for the way this would work.

Just my speculative 2 cents.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 05:21
There will probably be a better trait system, the editing of no-brainer choices, and more limitations put on the assualt cannon.
From your mouth to the Emperor's ears on the traits. Teh limitations on the Assault Cannon seem to have found their way into the DA codex already :)


I am very certain that they will give the basic LR a boost since few people use it. The LRC is a much better choice, how they will upgrade it I am unsure, even a points drop won't help because of the whole "mixed roles" problem. Hopefully they will allow each gun on the basic LR *only* to target different things and at a reduced accuracy while on the move. See the Choas version "infernal engine" I think, for the way this would work.

They didn't change the points cost any on the DA LR (and made the LRC effectively cheaper by making the extra armour optional; though at the same time the extra armour bumps the price a bit more with it; so the LRC w/ extra armour (IE, old-codex-style) is a little more expensive.

I'd like to see separate targetting rules, but since it didn't come in with C: BT or C: DA, I can't see C: SM getting it either.

the_raptor
17-03-2007, 05:51
Ignoring for the moment that Redux supposedly never existed.


I think we can say these things are givens:

Goodbye to Terminator Honors, cheaper LSTs, 2 Heavy Weapons in Terminator squads, cheaper chaplains, cheap extra armor

Why no termie honors? DA do not work like other chapters in regards to 1st company service and chapter leadership. The Inner Circle and Deathwing is a substantial non-codex variation. Normal marines do not have a veteran sgt leading every squad, and not every veteran has seen terminator service. Chaplains where already undercosted, and the reduction in vehicle cost means a vehicle + extra armour is the exact same price (except with smoke and spot light for free).



Also we can expect:

The standard equipment

Possible 5/10 split but some debate.

Also the Manstopper shotguns (though this is still very much in the air for everyone (Ig, SM, etc..))

Scouts as Elites[/qb]

Standard equipment is likely. The new codex looks just like a WHFB army book. 5/10 split is likely but with maybe an option to take some variable squads (say 1 per 3 full squads). Manstopper is likely. Scouts as elites is unlikely. It was done in DA to force people to take tactical marines, and not just a Ravenguard/Deathwing hybrid with minimal troop chocies.

AngryAngel
17-03-2007, 05:54
Ya know..I must say it was nice for them to add lights and smoke to the vehicles..though I'd perhaps even go so far as to say I think the Dozer blade should be another free addition.

It's really not that great, and I never see anyone take it. As is its worthless if ya move more then 6 inches in terrain. Its already 5 points and looking at it. No one around here agrees its even worth that much. Am I crazy on this ? Does anyone agree with me ?

Oh and by the by, I did just notice pintle mounted storm bolters for vehicles did get a price drop to 5 pts in the DA codex. Which is kinda nice. It really wasn't worth the 10 pts previously. Though I could see throwing down 5 pts for it.

oh and about the manstopper rounds. I don't think they'll make them standard for everyone. Its points out in the description of the rounds. The Dark Angels specially equip their scouts with the new rounds. I don't see why they'd really talk of it if everyone will start to hand out the new rounds. Doesn't make it seem very special then.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 05:58
Terminator honours existed (game-mechanics-wise)to make veteran sergenats veterans, and to make named characters cooler than non-named characters. It's a mechanic to add an extra attack to a specific figure or class of figures. C: DA just gave them the statline and gave up on the idea of a random attack boost for the generic characters.

eldaran
17-03-2007, 06:15
just asking: How many attacks do basic company masters have? Can't afford the codex yet and wanted to know what they are like in comparison to ordinary ones. And is it the focus on Chaplains in DA that meant that they are more desirable?

Thanks

Prince Facestab
17-03-2007, 06:57
Terminator honours existed (game-mechanics-wise)to make veteran sergenats veterans, and to make named characters cooler than non-named characters. It's a mechanic to add an extra attack to a specific figure or class of figures. C: DA just gave them the statline and gave up on the idea of a random attack boost for the generic characters.

I'm not certain that I understand. Are you saying that they only exist for those purposes in C:SM? If that's what you're saying, I don't buy it. Sergeants have access to them from their unit entry, and special characters come with them as standard. The only reason to have them as an option in the armory is for generic characters to take them.

I think that it does have more to do with the nature of the DA. As I understand it, you're either a normal deathwing, a deathwing sergeant, or the master of the deathwing; there aren't other models authorized to wear terminator armor, so there's no place for terminator honors. Other armies have different organization, and so could make use of terminator honors.

BrainFireBob
17-03-2007, 07:40
Vet Sarges are, fluffwise, sarges with Terminator Honors- you two are in agreement.

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-03-2007, 08:53
Why no termie honors?


Because it was a silly upgrade to get an extra attack?

There wasn't any logical reason why it should give an extra attack, and it seems that with C:DA they did away with it, and just included the upgrade into the basic profile of sergeants, and dropped the idea it gave a benefit for characters.

Makes sense to me, and continues with the idea that no-brainer upgrades are limited/removed/increased in points to make you think a little more.

Zappa
17-03-2007, 10:08
A company master has 3 attacks.

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 10:38
:confused: :wtf:


What the hell?

about the guns accutly busting amour

killing is the easiest thing in the game

Grand Master Raziel
17-03-2007, 12:35
The armoury is gone for game balance reasons; different units can now have differing costs for wargear based on more than just how many wounds they have, and differing characters may be limited to different sets of equipment. A unified armoury allows neither of these things. I see this as a positive, you seem to see this as a negative.


You're incorrect on both counts. There was no trouble at all with the previous system of adding a notation to items which indicated that they were IC-only, and also no trouble with adding price differentials for single-wound characters (sergeants) and multi-wound characters. The Codex: DA system not only removed a ton of choice from players, it also wastes space by printing the same things over and over again in each unit's listing. Simply having an Armory and then noting that X character has access to the Armory is far more efficient. So, it's a negative both on player choice and on page economy.



Regarding combat squads being useless unless you could split in the middle of the game: What's stopping you from splitting your squads and then keeping them together as one meta-unit until you need to split them? It makes rhinos mildly inconvenient, having to make two trips to lift both halves of the squad, but at the same time, half of the squad in each case can stand still to fire at long range/fire heavy weapons while the other half is being moved. And since everyone is convinced that Rhinos are rolling deathtraps, I don't see this as a serious problem.


That would make it take 3 turns to schlep one Tactical Squad 12", as opposed to one turn. I don't really subscribe to the idea of Rhinos being useless anymore, but expecting them to last 3 turns exposed to enemy fire is a bit much. As far as I'm concerned, playing using the Combat Squads rule is currently no different than simply basing your list around 5-man squads. I find it perplexing that players who would never dream of doing such a thing before that rule came out are all of a sudden espousing opinions that amount to "ZOMG! Combat Squads are the R0XX0R!!!!!"



The 3 "options" that changed in C: DA for vehicles (Searchlight, smoke, and Extra Armor) all have one thing in common. Smoke and Extra Armor were always taken, and searchlights were never taken unless you had nothing else to fit in those points. Smoke and Searchlights were taken out of options and made mandatory. Extra armor, though, should not be a base part of kit. And at the old points value, it was basically mandatory - a no-brainer. Everyone took it by default. At this point, then, you have two options, either make it part of the base vehicle after all, or make it less of a mandatory choice. The game designers chose opiton b - make it an option. So they pretty much had to increase it's points cost. From my point of view, Extra Armor has been undercosted from the begininng, and the opinion of it being a "must" for upgrades only reinforces my opinion; if it was costed properly, it wouldn't get taken in all circumstances because other options would be competing for its points.


Well, that might be convincing if JJ (may he rot in LotR-purgatory for the rest of his career) hadn't also seen fit to price down the Rhino so that the DA Rhino+Extra Armor=old Rhino with no upgrades. I suppose you could argue that the Extra Armor upgrade is of more use to transports than to gun tanks and price it accordingly. However, JJ didn't see fit to do that. He simply unthinkingly upped the price of it across the board.



A complaint about how pure codex marines are supposed to be fielded per the background, combined with a second-guessing of the layout. I found the layout to be very hard to grasp on the first reading; it is a layout designed not for browsing, but for reference. The book is not laid out for the casual read, but rather for long-term usage. I am now finding myself referring to just the last few pages for points values, which is much handier than trying to do the same thing with C: SM, let me tell you. I've been doing most of my referencing for points values out of army builder (and doublechecking with the codex later).


You seem to regard any comment that isn't overwhelmingly positive as a complaint. I said I could live with the 5/10 unit size. While that might not be singing its praises, it's not complaining about it in my book.

As for the book layout, I'm at the point where I can currently generate a Codex: SM list out of my head without ever needing to crack the dex, as long as I use units that I'm accustomed to using. However, if I'm considering using a unit that I don't frequently use, I find it more convenient to have the description of what the unit's various options do and the prices for them all in one entry, rather than having to flip back and forth between the two sections. So, from my standpoint, the new format is not a positive change. That said, it would be handy to have a quick-reference at the extreme back of the book if the points cost for items had been included in the main unit entries.



I addressed the armoury already. Are you actually upset about the loss of the armoury as it stands, or the options contained in it? IE, that Dark Angels unnamed characters lost access to Adamatine Mantles, artificer armour, etc (that named characters still have), or that Terminator Honors are gone? In the first case, I doubt the Redux will completely remove those options from DIY "named" characters (though the lower ranks may lose some of the 'bling'.) It'll just be in their entries, not in an armoury.


Both. The removal of items annoys me (and your list of removed items is incomplete), the imposition of who can take what annoys me, and as previously stated I think the Armory system is far better than having allowed items detailed in the unit entries.



The Assault Cannon cannot have its rules and stats changed within the current edition, at least once the Black Templar codex was printed (and arguably once the Wargear book was printed). Otherwise we'd be in the situation where different codices with the same-named weapon have different stats for that weapon. We have enough trouble with the Inquisition's Assault Cannons right now...


Sure it can. GW has never been afraid of being inconsistant, and I for one wouldn't give a hoot if BTs and DAs have cooler assault cannons for a while. DA units that have the option of taking ACs have been nerfed to holy heck, so the allegorical AC-spam cheesemongers might drift over to playing Black Templars, but that's a situation that GW could correct with later printings of the book. The people who have been defending the gawdawful nerfing of the DAs have been stating that balance has to start somewhere. While I don't agree that what's been done to the DAs particularly serves balance, one can use the line of reasoning for actually toning down the assault cannon (as opposed to nerfing the units that have the option of taking it): it's got to start somewhere, and since the users of a hypothetical SM: Redux book are going to be the largest group of users of the AC, that's the most logical place to start.



Not all platforms for the Assault cannon got a bump in cost for the platform - Terminators are a couple of points cheaper than they were pre-codex (given the cost of Stubborn). And it's not like the Dreadnought did in fact get a price bump across the board; the Plasma Cannon dread costs exactly the same as he did pre-C: DA, and the MM option and the heavy flamer upgrade costs got cheaper. (Less than the additional cost for the hull, so they are mildly more expensive than before). As for Landspeeders, it looks like the base hull went up in cost not because it can carry an assault cannon, but because the heavy bolter was too good relative to the multi-melta - the way the points-change happened, the heavy bolter became more expensive, and the multi-melta stayed at the same (relative) points cost, as it is a no-points upgrade. And, you will note, the landspeeder can now have a multi-melta/AC combo, which is a wicked combination for hunting tanks and monstrous creatures. Or it can have a flamer/HB combo, a very good combo for horde-hunting. The additional mix/match there I think justifies the slightly higher cost of the speeder.


And are all of those options going to make their way over SM: Redux? I kind of doubt it. Currently, the AC is the only antipersonell gun arm available to Dreadnoughts unless I use the Forge World entry. If GW wants to give back all the previous options, then I could live with the AC arm being upcosted, but Dreads are already overpriced in regard to their ability to remain on the table. Bollicks to the idea that the HB speeder is worth the same points as the multimelta speeder, but the more significant nerfing to Speeder squadrons is the limitation to one Tornado per squadron. I also doubt the sexy new combos are going to make it into SM: Redux.



I don't think the increase in points costs for the specific options cited is at all over-reacting. The predator is only more expensive if you take the all-lascannon variant; and I don't think that's out of line. The autocannon predator is at least as cheap as it was before (potentially much cheaper), and the Annihilator w/ HB is also cheaper. the Predator is a quite decent "gun tank" in all it's incarnations.


The las-sponson Annihilator is already the least-used Pred variant because it's the most disadvantaged variant under the current vehicle rules. Upcosting that makes no sense at all. Also, IIRC almost all the gun tanks went up in price when you factor in the price of Extra Armor.



For my own forces, the changes in C: DA have made me: look at a predator for the first time since 2ed (I have one of the old round-turreted autocannon preds, though the sponsons are the Mk.2 "Blockhouse" HB sponsons), look at Ravenwing in general, and actually field more marines in my forces instead of stocking up on Dreadnoughts and Scouts. Shocking, I know :confused:

Well, good for you, but some of us have been doing that all along.

eldaran
17-03-2007, 13:09
@ Grand Master Raziel: Can i just ask, if there was a C:SM redux, would you rather the DA veterans stats went through, rather than having the current "Space Marines with a veteran skill paid-for-therefore-built-in" version.

Sparda
17-03-2007, 15:49
As for combat squads- I think that they are a better then good choice, but it should be a trait. But with combat squads, it still takes the same amount of casualties to bring both squads under half strength, Both need 6. But, lets say if a LRC came to your lines, and unloaded all its wepons, It can onley target one squad. So, I think that it will actually increase the squad's survivability. So I hope that it becomes a trait, probally under codex, so you get something for no disatvanteges.

I don't know anything else about The new da codex, so im not sure about it, nut hope that the make extra armor with a small drop from C: DA but a raise from C:SM.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 16:29
Also, IIRC almost all the gun tanks went up in price when you factor in the price of Extra Armor.

If you have to factor the cost of extra armor into every tank; it's mandatory, not an option. Game design clearly believes that it should be optional, and priced it accordingly.

You are also incorrect about every tank; all the predators without lascannon sponsons are cheaper or the same cost with extra armor as their C: SM equivalents. The LR variants, the lascannon sponson preds, and the vindicator went up in cost, if you never put smoke or searchlights on your tanks, and never put Pintle SBs on. Adding PSB, smoke, and searchlight brings you to a whopping 1 (!) more point for extra armor when you factor the price break for the other items. Which of course makes predators without sponson lascannons an even better deal, since they are across the board as cheap or cheaper.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 16:45
Tactical Squad 12", as opposed to one turn. I don't really subscribe to the idea of Rhinos being useless anymore, but expecting them to last 3 turns exposed to enemy fire is a bit much. As far as I'm concerned, playing using the Combat Squads rule is currently no different than simply basing your list around 5-man squads. I find it perplexing that players who would never dream of doing such a thing before that rule came out are all of a sudden espousing opinions that amount to "ZOMG! Combat Squads are the R0XX0R!!!!!"

Build a list that has 41 marines and 1 tank, 9 scoring units, 4 lascannons, 4 meltaguns/plasmaguns (mix to taste, you probably don't have enough points to make them all plasma, depending on the wargear on the character and tank), and 4 or 5 power weapons in a kilopoint using C: SM. And has the ability to move the meltagun and power weapons while shooting the lascannons in the same turn. It's a bit of an extreme example, but unlike most extreme examples, this list is a all-comers list with no real pony-trick in it. (If the opposition brought a lot of anti-tank it's going to be a bit of a rough day for the predator, but in a kilopoint, anti-tank is usually fairly limited. And at under 100 points, the predator only has to have 1 effective round of firing to make back his points). My point here is that you can fill your Troops FOC slots even in a small game if you use 5-man squads. Being able to go over that limit is pretty nice.

Combat Squads is not an uber-powerful ability. It mainly makes up for the 5/10-man squad sizes. But it does more than make up for it.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 16:52
As for combat squads- I think that they are a better then good choice, but it should be a trait. But with combat squads, it still takes the same amount of casualties to bring both squads under half strength, Both need 6. But, lets say if a LRC came to your lines, and unloaded all its wepons, It can onley target one squad. So, I think that it will actually increase the squad's survivability. So I hope that it becomes a trait, probally under codex, so you get something for no disatvanteges.

Playing a pure codex army shouldn't require a trait. Ultramarines shouldn't have any traits. Not using 5/10-man squads should be the trait. It should be a self-contained trait, you gain variable squad sizes for regular squads, but lose Combat Squads. (Most traits should work like that, IMHO).


I don't know anything else about The new da codex, so im not sure about it, nut hope that the make extra armor with a small drop from C: DA but a raise from C:SM.

Quick points check here. A vindicator (which hasn't changed at all between C: SM and C: DA) with extra armor and PSB as options, and the "mandatory" smoke and searchlight that C: DA vehicles all get now is almost exactly the same points cose - the difference is 1 point in favor of the C: SM version, and since that 1 point brings the C: DA to a multiple of 5 for its points cost, I think we can get away with calling that no real points increase. (there are no options in C: DA that are not mulitples of 5 points).

Gutlord Grom
17-03-2007, 17:05
Playing a pure codex army shouldn't require a trait. Ultramarines shouldn't have any traits. Not using 5/10-man squads should be the trait. It should be a self-contained trait, you gain variable squad sizes for regular squads, but lose Combat Squads. (Most traits should work like that, IMHO).



Quick points check here. A vindicator (which hasn't changed at all between C: SM and C: DA) with extra armor and PSB as options, and the "mandatory" smoke and searchlight that C: DA vehicles all get now is almost exactly the same points cose - the difference is 1 point in favor of the C: SM version, and since that 1 point brings the C: DA to a multiple of 5 for its points cost, I think we can get away with calling that no real points increase. (there are no options in C: DA that are not mulitples of 5 points).
Why should I waste a trait on variable squad sizes? Why not just make it a rule in the entry, that a player a choice between the two, but can still take his one special weapon and Combat squad.
Sounds fair to me and would apease both sides of the road.



If you have to factor the cost of extra armor into every tank; it's mandatory, not an option. Game design clearly believes that it should be optional, and priced it accordingly.

You are also incorrect about every tank; all the predators without lascannon sponsons are cheaper or the same cost with extra armor as their C: SM equivalents. The LR variants, the lascannon sponson preds, and the vindicator went up in cost, if you never put smoke or searchlights on your tanks, and never put Pintle SBs on. Adding PSB, smoke, and searchlight brings you to a whopping 1 (!) more point for extra armor when you factor the price break for the other items. Which of course makes predators without sponson lascannons an even better deal, since they are across the board as cheap or cheaper.
It's an optional choice that downgrades a stunning shot to a shaken. Nothing more. That makes it a waste. It's kinda the same reaso that I stopped using Hunter Killer upgrade. It's okay but not worth the price of one Marine. POintle Storm bolters are not that great that they should be on every tank, and at ten points for all Imperial forces, they are quite expensve.
Why would you take a Las cannon predator without Las cannon sponsoms. Heavy bolters on the auto cannon version are more effective. The three lascannons are a good anti tank option and should not be diluted.

Onisuzume
17-03-2007, 17:40
Why should I waste a trait on variable squad sizes? Why not just make it a rule in the entry, that a player a choice between the two, but can still take his one special weapon and Combat squad.
Sounds fair to me and would apease both sides of the road.
Traits are used to make a divergeant chapter.
A chapter that doesn't strictly follow the codex astartes.
Variable squad sizes isn't codex astartes, thus it should be a trait.

If 95% of the chapters out there follow the codex as strictly as possible, then why should c: SM have the standard option of something that *isn't* strictly codex astartes?

Why would you take a Las cannon predator without Las cannon sponsoms. Heavy bolters on the auto cannon version are more effective. The three lascannons are a good anti tank option and should not be diluted.
Except that 2 lascannon shots and 1 twin-linked lascannon shot is a bit overkill when shooting at most vehicles.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 17:43
Why should I waste a trait on variable squad sizes? Why not just make it a rule in the entry, that a player a choice between the two, but can still take his one special weapon and Combat squad.
Sounds fair to me and would apease both sides of the road.

Traits are most likely going to change, their final form may be quite different from what we see now. I'll leave it with variable size squads and Combat Squads will probably be mutually exculsive at the army level for non-elites squads, and we'll have to see how it gets implemented. I think there will be a selection of traits that are, in effect, "points"-neutral, you will be able to take a certain number of them without limiting other traits options.




It's an optional choice that downgrades a stunning shot to a shaken. Nothing more. That makes it a waste. It's kinda the same reaso that I stopped using Hunter Killer upgrade. It's okay but not worth the price of one Marine. POintle Storm bolters are not that great that they should be on every tank, and at ten points for all Imperial forces, they are quite expensve.
Why would you take a Las cannon predator without Las cannon sponsoms. Heavy bolters on the auto cannon version are more effective. The three lascannons are a good anti tank option and should not be diluted.

Stunning down to shaken means the tank can move out of the way of whatever hit it. That's pretty good; it means with a reasonable amount of terrain, you can get out of LOS of whatever hit you, so they can't hit you again...

Apparently game design agrees with you on PSBs, they got halved in price.

The lascannon predator thing I suspect is primarily an army-feel change. Marines are jacks-of-all-trades; and the triple lascannon predator is a very focused unit. So it pays more for the extra lascannons for the same reasoning that a dev squad pays more for its lascannons.

But there is a points aspect here - a predator with 3 lascannons (1 twinlinked) still costs less than a 5-man devastator squad with 3 lascannons. It is mostly immune to small-arms fire (though is more vulnerable to AT fire). Perhaps Predators were undercosted in C: SM? I don't know. At any rate, I don't know enough about the uses of predators to say one way or another. I do know that sponson lascannons seem rather underpriced in C: SM compared to every other lascannon in the book. And the price increase for the 3 lascannon predator is less than the cost of a marine when you factor in the smoke and searchlight. Add a PSB for anti-infantry and there is no price difference to speak of. (I'm not going to factor the cost of extra armour in, if it is "mandatory" on every vehicle it is either too cheap or should be part of the base cost). a 5-point difference (without the PSB) is hardly a nerf.

The predator hull went down in price significantly, for both types of turrets. Not quite by as much as the sponson lascannons went up, but fairly dramatically. Once you factor in the smoke and searchlights, you aren't looking at much of a change.

junglesnake
17-03-2007, 17:59
Hulkster is right, I had it confirmed by staff at GW that there is another SM codex planned for release but not for a while yet. Next year sounds about right, probably Christmas if they have any marketing sense!

Basic unit organisation of 5/10 will be enforced, as with the terminators being down to 5 with one heavy.

Scouts will be troops I think for standard marines still. The only reason for the change in the Dark Angels was that the Ravenwing are historicaly the forces used for recon and scouting.

I should imagine that some of the other characterised armies will vary but this is the template for the standard marine armies.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 18:07
Late 2008/early 2009 is about as early as I'd expect it; and it is going to be behind Orks and Chaos at least (probably BA as well) based on the rumours floating around. If it comes out before DE, then Slannesh may have gotten into Commoragh :( (Not that a C: SM Redux before DE is a guarantee that they're getting written off; just that they're not attracting anyone to work on them).

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 18:34
can i ask what is this armoury shrink is like, what has been lost?#

how does this squad splitting work?

also how much are drop pods

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 18:50
can i ask what is this armoury shrink is like, what has been lost?#

how does this squad splitting work?

also how much are drop pods

Armoury is gone - the former options are now farmed out into individual units and models. No one model has access to everything that was in the armoury, and many items (relics, mainly) are only available to specific characters rather than "generic" characters. Veteran Sergeants in normal squads lost the most options.

A drop pod costs as much as 3 marines + 5 points now.

Grand Master Raziel
17-03-2007, 18:55
@ Grand Master Raziel: Can i just ask, if there was a C:SM redux, would you rather the DA veterans stats went through, rather than having the current "Space Marines with a veteran skill paid-for-therefore-built-in" version.

It's a reasonable trade-off for Furious Charge, at least. What I really like about the Company Veteran Squad is the optional weapon upgrades. You can actually make a shooty Company Veterans squad that is significantly more shooty than a DA Tactical Squad, which is something you can't do with a SM Veteran Squad. I might like to see Veterans get to take a second heavy weapon in a squad, but the DA Company Vets aren't a bad way to go either.


If you have to factor the cost of extra armor into every tank; it's mandatory, not an option. Game design clearly believes that it should be optional, and priced it accordingly.

You are also incorrect about every tank; all the predators without lascannon sponsons are cheaper or the same cost with extra armor as their C: SM equivalents. The LR variants, the lascannon sponson preds, and the vindicator went up in cost, if you never put smoke or searchlights on your tanks, and never put Pintle SBs on. Adding PSB, smoke, and searchlight brings you to a whopping 1 (!) more point for extra armor when you factor the price break for the other items. Which of course makes predators without sponson lascannons an even better deal, since they are across the board as cheap or cheaper.

I concede the point. Refusing to buy the crap book means I have to argue it from memory. My memory is pretty good, but the details on the gun tanks weren't one of the things that immediately jumped out at me. DAs lost Power of the Machine Spirit, though, which made the Vindicator a reasonable buy.



Build a list that has 41 marines and 1 tank, 9 scoring units, 4 lascannons, 4 meltaguns/plasmaguns (mix to taste, you probably don't have enough points to make them all plasma, depending on the wargear on the character and tank), and 4 or 5 power weapons in a kilopoint using C: SM. And has the ability to move the meltagun and power weapons while shooting the lascannons in the same turn. It's a bit of an extreme example, but unlike most extreme examples, this list is a all-comers list with no real pony-trick in it. (If the opposition brought a lot of anti-tank it's going to be a bit of a rough day for the predator, but in a kilopoint, anti-tank is usually fairly limited. And at under 100 points, the predator only has to have 1 effective round of firing to make back his points). My point here is that you can fill your Troops FOC slots even in a small game if you use 5-man squads. Being able to go over that limit is pretty nice.


HQ
85pts: Company Captain: Power weapon, combat shield
95pts: Command Squad: 5 Marines, 2 plasma guns

Elites
105pts: Veteran Squad: 5 Vets, Lascannon, Tank Hunters

Troops
90pts: Tac Squad 1: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 2: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 3: 5 Marines, lascannon
110: Tac Squad 4: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun
110: Tac Squad 5: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun110: Tac Squad 6: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun

Heavy Support
115: Predator Destructor: Heavy bolter sponsons, extra armor

1000 points exactly. Took me about 10 minutes to think it up. You owe me a nickel. ;)

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 18:57
Armoury is gone - the former options are now farmed out into individual units and models. No one model has access to everything that was in the armoury, and many items (relics, mainly) are only available to specific characters rather than "generic" characters. Veteran Sergeants in normal squads lost the most options.

A drop pod costs as much as 3 marines + 5 points now.

how does the split combat squad work

can my vet sarges still get p/fists weps

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 19:02
how does the split combat squad work

can my vet sarges still get p/fists weps

Buy the codex, and yes.

...

Combat squads in a nutshell - for power armour marines, if you have 10 marines they can be played on the table as though they were 2 squads of 5 marines. That is neither a complete nor detailed explanation, but it will do for evaluating the combat squads rle.

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 19:12
Buy the codex, and yes.

...

Combat squads in a nutshell - for power armour marines, if you have 10 marines they can be played on the table as though they were 2 squads of 5 marines. That is neither a complete nor detailed explanation, but it will do for evaluating the combat squads rle.

cool so 10 guys ride in a drop pod sarge and flamer +3 go one way will h/bolter +4 stay still and cover them?

i cant buy the codex right now im low on funds(im skink )
and my nearest GW is far far away

victorpofa
17-03-2007, 19:34
I like the new layout as I don't have to flip to the armory page whenever I kit out a Sergeant or IC. I also like combat squads, but I was using squads of around 10 in my Space Wolves test-lists anyway. Even for Blood Claws which can have up to 15 plus Wolf Guard. I do miss some of the armory options, but things like every Sergeant having the ability to suit up in Artificer Armor did not make much sense. We shall see if this trend continues with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and (if it is real) SM Redux.

The Emperor
17-03-2007, 19:46
cool so 10 guys ride in a drop pod sarge and flamer +3 go one way will h/bolter +4 stay still and cover them?

No. They count as separate squads. That means that you can't stick both Combat Squads into a transport at the same time, though they can both use it (Just not at the same time). Also, you can take a Razorback even for a 10-man squad. So if you split them into Combat Squads, then you'll be able to transport one in the Razorback while the other hangs back and fires. However, you can only decide to use the Combat Squads rule when deploying. If you're held in Reserve for whatever reason then you have to stay as a 10-man unit. So while Tactical Squads with a Razorback are a good idea most of the time, they're not such a good idea in Omega level missions, as Escalation will gimp them.

Anyway, the following units use the Combat Squads rule (Splitting one 10-man squad into two 5-man squads):

- Company Veteran Squads (Only when you have 10 men. This is the only unit in the Dark Angels army that has a variable squad size, which is why I mention it).
- Scout Squad
- Tactical Squad
- Assault Squad
- Ravenwing Attack Squadron (Difference is that it's a 6-man squad that can be split into two 3-man squads. It can also come with an Attack Bike and Land Speeder, but those are always separate units)
- Devastator Squad

As for Veteran Sergeants, yes, they can still take Power Weapons, Power Fists, and Plasma Pistols.


shall see if this trend continues with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and (if it is real) SM Redux.

My guess is that the trend, for the most part, will continue in all of the above save for the Space Wolves Codex. They don't abide by the Codex Astartes, so they'll likely stick with variable squad sizes. Though I gotta say, the idea of them using Combat Squads would be cool (Can you imagine a 15-man Blood Claws squad split into three 5-man Combat Squads? :D).

I figure, though, that they will see the removal of the armory, and the equipment options put in each unit entry. Some of the smaller items, like Wolf Tail Talismans, will probably be done away with. Just my pesonal opinion, though.

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 19:49
Build a list that has 41 marines and 1 tank, 9 scoring units, 4 lascannons, 4 meltaguns/plasmaguns (mix to taste, you probably don't have enough points to make them all plasma, depending on the wargear on the character and tank), and 4 or 5 power weapons in a kilopoint using C: SM. And has the ability to move the meltagun and power weapons while shooting the lascannons in the same turn.



1000 points? I'll get back to you. I think I can do it, but right now I want to go get some food and visit the GW store for an actual game. Watch this space.

It looks like you can (just barely) do it, as long as you buy the HQ no wargear (and use a HQ that has a worse statline than the DA Master). You have to get 2 of your lascannons from Devastator squads, but you have the slots for it (barely). (assuming Armybuilder didn't bobble the math, anyway)

I overran the kilopoint anyway due to the non-optional wargear on the HQ and the price increase of lascannons and sgt power weapons, which are mostly counterbalanced by the discount on the predator.

As I put it down, I'm at 1050. If the SM army matched wargear and HQ, it comes to 1042. Adding frag to any 2 squads and the SM list is over the cost of the DA list. Plus, you've filled all your heavy support choices on the SM side of things, which makes it more difficult to add to the force for higher points-value games. It also doesn't include the free bolt pistols that the DA get; which in an army that has no dedicated assault troops, basically gives another attack in the first round of combat on a CC against most other troops types (at a better to hit against many troops, since the pistol hits on a 3+ while the CC attacks hit on a 4+).

Edit: The SM build only works because veteran sgts aren't mandatory, also.

The point of the exercise was not to show that Combat Squads is an uber-powerful ability (it's not), but that it is very useful, and can lead to armies that cannot be duplicated in C: SM easily.

Next exercise: Take the kilopoint (approximately) list and make it an effective 1500-point list without dropping models or removing scoing unit count. (Changing weapon options is OK).

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 20:10
No. They count as separate squads. That means that you can't stick both Combat Squads into a transport at the same time, though they can both use it (Just not at the same time). Also, you can take a Razorback even for a 10-man squad. So if you split them into Combat Squads, then you'll be able to transport one in the Razorback while the other hangs back and fires. However, you can only decide to use the Combat Squads rule when deploying. If you're held in Reserve for whatever reason then you have to stay as a 10-man unit.

thats **** then


so what is DA's advantage/disadvantage over normal SM cause all i can se is restrictions

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 21:13
Deathwing, ravenwing, and the ability to have more scoring units for the same points cost.

Combat squads is a nice ability, but not huge.

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 21:15
Deathwing, ravenwing, and the ability to have more scoring units for the same points cost.

Combat squads is a nice ability, but not huge.

arent RW and DW just normal bikers and termies unless you feild a DW/RW army where they are troops ??

The Emperor
17-03-2007, 21:18
thats **** then

Not really. First off, each Combat Squad counts as a Scoring Unit. Secondly, who cares if you can transport them both in the transport at the same time? One of the benefits of Combat Squads is being able to use both the Special Weapon and the Heavy Weapon at the same time. Every turn the Heavy Weapon spends in a transport moving towards the enemy is a turn when it's not shooting. With Combat Squads, you can keep the Heavy Weapon in one Combat Squad back, shooting every turn, while another Combat Squad with the Special Weapon can ride in the transport and get up close (Which makes Flamers and Meltaguns even better in Tactical Squads).

Same goes for Devastator Squads. If you want to be able to target two separate enemy units per turn with Devastators then you need to take two Devastator Squads in normal Space Marine armies, eating up two Heavy Support slots. With Combat Squads, however, you can do that with one squad. So you could have one Combat Squad with two Lascannons shooting at the Chaos Land Raider, while the other Combat Squad with two Lascannons shoots at the Defiler. Or you can mix different kinds of heavy weapons in the same squad. You could take two Lascannons and two Heavy Bolters in the same squad and not have to waste shots. In a regular Space Marine force, either the two Lascannons or two Heavy Bolters are gonna be useless every turn. But with Combat Squads, they'll be useful every turn, as one Combat Squad can have the two Lascannons, and the other can have the two Heavy Bolters. So the first can target enemy tanks while the other targets enemy infantry.

It's beneficial for Assault Squads, too. Once again, you can get two units for only one Fast Attack slot. In some cases you may want a 10-man squad, but in other cases, two 5-man squads which can engage two separate enemy units would be preferable, while still leaving you with two Fast Attack choices.

Not overpowering, but there're plenty of opportunities that're available with Dark Angels that aren't with regular Space Marine armies.


arent RW and DW just normal bikers and termies unless you feild a DW/RW army where they are troops ??

No. Ravenwing Attack Squadrons come in 3-man or 6-man squads, and can add an Attack Bike. If they have 6 men in the squad, then they can also have a Land Speeder with an Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolter.

The Attack Bike and the Land Speeder are always separate units, so if you take a 6-man Ravenwing Attack Squadron and buy an Attack Bike and Land Speeder then you got 3 Scoring Units. If you use the Combat Squads rule, and split the Ravenwing Bikers into two 3-man squads, then you'll have 4 Scoring Units.

In addition, Ravenwing Bikes and Attack Bikes are Fearless and have Scout and Teleport Homers. So they get a free 12" move before the game starts (And can deploy at the start of the game, even with Escalation), and Terminators can use their Teleport Homers to teleport down on target (Useful for the Deathwing's Deathwing Assault ability).

If you take Sammael, then you can take Ravenwing Attack Squadrons as Troops. You can also upgrade one of those squads to include an Apothecary and a Standard Bearer (Who carries the Ravenwing Company Banner. Gives everyone in the squad +1 Attack and gives a morale boost to other Dark Angels units within 12"). And of course, Sammael is one bad ass mother. Ravenwing also have the Ravenwing Support Squadron, which consists of 1-5 Land Speeders, one of which can be a Tornado, and another can be a Typhoon.

Deathwing, on the other hand, are like regular Terminators except they're Fearless, come in 5-man squads, and can only get one Heavy Weapon. The Assault Cannon is more expensive, but the Cyclone Missile Launcher and Heavy Flamer are cheaper. You can also mix in close combat weapons, meaning that any Terminator can exchange his Storm Bolter and Power Fist/Weapon for a pair of Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield (It's also possible to have a Terminator with a Cyclone Missile Launcher and Lightning Claws).

They also have the Deathwing Assault rule, which means that half (rounding up) of any Deathwing units in Reserve can Deep Strike on the first turn. The rest arrive as normal. This is especially useful with Ravenwing, as the Deathwing can use their Teleport Homers to arrive safely.

In addition, if you take Belial, then not only can you take Deathwing Terminator Squads as Troops, but one squad can upgrade its members to include an Apothecary and a Company Standard Bearer (Who carries the Deathwing Company Banner. It grants everyone in the squad +1 Attack and a morale boost to other Dark Angels units within 12").

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 21:19
Deathwing are Fearless and have Deathwing Assault. Ravenwing have scouts and teleport homers.

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 21:23
Not really. First off, each Combat Squad counts as a Scoring Unit. Secondly, who cares if you can transport them both in the transport at the same time? One of the benefits of Combat Squads is being able to use both the Special Weapon and the Heavy Weapon at the same time. Every turn the Heavy Weapon spends in a transport moving towards the enemy is a turn when it's not shooting. With Combat Squads, you can keep the Heavy Weapon in one Combat Squad back, shooting every turn, while another Combat Squad with the Special Weapon can ride in the transport and get up close (Which makes Flamers and Meltaguns even better in Tactical Squads).

Same goes for Devastator Squads. If you want to be able to target two separate enemy units per turn with Devastators then you need to take two Devastator Squads in normal Space Marine armies, eating up two Heavy Support slots. With Combat Squads, however, you can do that with one squad. So you could have one Combat Squad with two Lascannons shooting at the Chaos Land Raider, while the other Combat Squad with two Lascannons shoots at the Defiler. Or you can mix different kinds of heavy weapons in the same squad. You could take two Lascannons and two Heavy Bolters in the same squad and not have to waste shots. In a regular Space Marine force, either the two Lascannons or two Heavy Bolters are gonna be useless every turn. But with Combat Squads, they'll be useful every turn, as one Combat Squad can have the two Lascannons, and the other can have the two Heavy Bolters. So the first can target enemy tanks while the other targets enemy infantry.

It's beneficial for Assault Squads, too. Once again, you can get two units for only one Fast Attack slot. In some cases you may want a 10-man squad, but in other cases, two 5-man squads which can engage two separate enemy units would be preferable, while still leaving you with two Fast Attack choices.

Not overpowering, but there're plenty of opportunities that're available with Dark Angels that aren't with regular Space Marine armies.

so do they split at the start of the battle or whenever they want?

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 21:26
so do they split at the start of the battle or whenever they want?

At deployment. Which is no big deal, since 2x5 marines are no easier to kill than 1x10, and in many ways harder.

The Emperor
17-03-2007, 21:31
so do they split at the start of the battle or whenever they want?

You choose at deployment if you want to split a squad or not. If it's held in Reserve, though, then it can't be split.

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 21:57
You choose at deployment if you want to split a squad or not. If it's held in Reserve, though, then it can't be split.

can i ask one question

drop pod army vs drop pod DA

which way do i go ??

SM vs points bumped up and squad split ill never use

unless im missing something

Ian Argent
17-03-2007, 22:02
Drop pod army using SM. First, the pods are cheaper, second, you won't be able to make use of most of the DA special rules.

Until and unless the Redux comes along, anyway.

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 22:04
Drop pod army using SM. First, the pods are cheaper, second, you won't be able to make use of most of the DA special rules.

Until and unless the Redux comes along, anyway.

however the RAW on assult dreads

im using DA vets no mater what as sarges cause its the best box realesed so far

guillimansknight
17-03-2007, 23:02
BTW is it true that you can RAW so charging out of a drop pod is possible?

lord_blackfang
17-03-2007, 23:42
BTW is it true that you can RAW so charging out of a drop pod is possible?

For your own good, forget about it.

guillimansknight
18-03-2007, 00:02
For your own good, forget about it.

why?

that could open up a dread option in my army

victorpofa
18-03-2007, 00:15
My guess is that the trend, for the most part, will continue in all of the above save for the Space Wolves Codex. They don't abide by the Codex Astartes, so they'll likely stick with variable squad sizes. Though I gotta say, the idea of them using Combat Squads would be cool (Can you imagine a 15-man Blood Claws squad split into three 5-man Combat Squads? :D).

I figure, though, that they will see the removal of the armory, and the equipment options put in each unit entry. Some of the smaller items, like Wolf Tail Talismans, will probably be done away with. Just my pesonal opinion, though.

Sorry. I was not as clear as I thought. I meant the removal of the Armory and equipment options. My wolves should be as far from codex as possible. Though 3 combat squads of Blood Claws does sound interesting :evilgrin:

The fetishes will probably be limited to ICs and Wolf Guard.

The Emperor
18-03-2007, 00:18
why?

that could open up a dread option in my army

No, you can't assault out of a Drop Pod. Jervis Johnson put out an early FAQ clarifying that. Any unit arriving in a Drop Pod is arriving via Deep Strike, therefore can't assault on the turn it arrives.

guillimansknight
18-03-2007, 00:19
No, you can't assault out of a Drop Pod. Jervis Johnson put out an early FAQ clarifying that. Any unit arriving in a Drop Pod is arriving via Deep Strike, therefore can't assault on the turn it arrives.

bugger


see sig

Ian Argent
18-03-2007, 05:36
Even without the FAQ, the rule was unclear enough that without it positively saying that you could, I wouldn't have. (Yes, I argued for it for a while. I'm a contrary bugger some days. In the end, I was convinced that the most reasonable reading of the rules was that you couldn't).

Grand Master Raziel
18-03-2007, 15:40
The original challenge was as follows:


Build a list that has 41 marines and 1 tank, 9 scoring units, 4 lascannons, 4 meltaguns/plasmaguns (mix to taste, you probably don't have enough points to make them all plasma, depending on the wargear on the character and tank), and 4 or 5 power weapons in a kilopoint using C: SM. And has the ability to move the meltagun and power weapons while shooting the lascannons in the same turn.

I wrote the rough draft of this list in my head in about 10 minutes, though I admit I tweaked it in my head for a couple more hours (driving and whatnot) before writing it into my previous post. I've copied it here for easy reference.

HQ
85pts: Company Captain: Power weapon, storm shield
95pts: Command Squad: 5 Marines, 2 plasma guns

Elites
105pts: Veteran Squad: 5 Vets, Lascannon, Tank Hunters

Troops
90pts: Tac Squad 1: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 2: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 3: 5 Marines, lascannon
110: Tac Squad 4: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun
110: Tac Squad 5: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun110: Tac Squad 6: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun

Heavy Support
115: Predator Destructor: Heavy bolter sponsons, extra armor

1000 points exactly.


It looks like you can (just barely) do it, as long as you buy the HQ no wargear (and use a HQ that has a worse statline than the DA Master). You have to get 2 of your lascannons from Devastator squads, but you have the slots for it (barely). (assuming Armybuilder didn't bobble the math, anyway)


Stop using Armybuilder. It's stunting your development as a player. I managed to bring my list in at exactly 1000 points with some kit for the HQ and optional upgrades for the Predator, and even slightly exceed your criteria: I squeezed in 5 plasma guns instead of 4.




As I put it down, I'm at 1050. If the SM army matched wargear and HQ, it comes to 1042. Adding frag to any 2 squads and the SM list is over the cost of the DA list. Plus, you've filled all your heavy support choices on the SM side of things, which makes it more difficult to add to the force for higher points-value games. It also doesn't include the free bolt pistols that the DA get; which in an army that has no dedicated assault troops, basically gives another attack in the first round of combat on a CC against most other troops types (at a better to hit against many troops, since the pistol hits on a 3+ while the CC attacks hit on a 4+).


The bolt pistol shots and free frags are admittedly nice, but none of the rest of what you've put here is in any way accurate. I built my list around mostly Troops choices, which could be further fleshed out with more points if so desired. I used one Elites choice, one Heavy Support choice, and no Fast Attack choices, so I've still got plenty of room to expand.

Now, had I decided to stray from the criteria you laid down, I could have used the Fast Attack slots to have three 5-man Assault Squads without jump packs instead of Tactical Squads 4-6. That would have given me the frags for free. I couldn't have taken plasma guns, but each squad could have had two plasma pistols for the same price as the one plasma gun in the Tac squads - not as good for long-range shooting, but slightly better for close in work, as the shots would only overheat on 1's instead of 1's and 2's.



Edit: The SM build only works because veteran sgts aren't mandatory, also.

The point of the exercise was not to show that Combat Squads is an uber-powerful ability (it's not), but that it is very useful, and can lead to armies that cannot be duplicated in C: SM easily.


I think I showed that what you can do with Combat Squads can be duplicated pretty readily with Codex: Space Marines.



Next exercise: Take the kilopoint (approximately) list and make it an effective 1500-point list without dropping models or removing scoing unit count. (Changing weapon options is OK).

Well, that's a pretty broad instruction. There are so many things you can do with that extra 500 points that it's hard to choose. Based on my 1000 point list, one thing you could do is buy 4 Rhinos and beef up all the close-combat oriented squads to 10-strong, which would make the list a hella lot more mobile and give those squads a lot more punch up close. However, continuing with Combat Squad-emulation, we could do the following:


HQ
86pts: Company Captain: Power weapon, storm shield, frags
95pts: Command Squad: 5 Marines, 2 plasma guns
78pts: Razorback (TL HB) with extra armor and smoke launchers

Elites
125pts: Veteran Squad: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun, Infiltrate

Troops
90pts: Tac Squad 1: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 2: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 3: 5 Marines, lascannon
90pts: Tac Squad 4: 5 Marines, lascannon

110: Tac Squad 5: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun
78pts: Razorback (TL HB) with extra armor and smoke launchers

110: Tac Squad 6: Vet Sergeant with power weapon, 4 Marines, plasma gun
78pts: Razorback (TL HB) with extra armor and smoke launchers


Fast Attack
146pts: Assault Squad 1: Veteran Sergeant with power fist, 4 marines, one with flamer

116pts: Assault Squad 2: 5 marines, one with flamer

Heavy Support
118: Predator Destructor: Heavy bolter sponsons, extra armor, smoke launchers

1500 points exactly. I opted to give the list more mobility and a little more anti-infantry punch, both of which serve it well. I also changed the role of the Vets from fire support to close fighting, giving them Infiltrate instead of Tank Hunters so they can start closer to the opponent if so desired. I also added another 10 Marines and 2 more scoring units.

You might also observe that I still haven't completely used up my FOC, giving me plenty of room to expand into 2000 points within one FOC, and could maybe go as high as 2500 if I used more expensive units and added a little more wargear. Most games don't go higher than 2000 points anyway, and even if they do, one can feel free to use a second FOC if one wishes. At any rate, I think this exercise shows pretty conclusively that you can virtually duplicate the effect of the Combat Squads rule with Codex: Space Marines within one FOC up to the points value that you'd be most likely to play any given game at.

Ian Argent
18-03-2007, 16:25
I concede the point. Call it not having made many lists recently with the C: SM because I've been playing my Tau before the release of C: DA, and the DA afterwards.

Though the DA list does use less FOC slots, it doesn't matter much because DA can only use Tac marines in Troops slots, I suppose. Army builder was used in my case for laziness (and to show that it could be done); I'm glad you had a more efficient build than me for the C: SM version.

However, you got to do it with a character that is cheaper (because of lower statline) and has less wargear than the DA minimum HQ (15 point delta there between the 2, more if I had paid for a power weapon on the HQ - all the power weapons were "hidden" in squads in my build), and squad options that don't exist in C: DA (non-veteran statline marines in Elites and HQ). One of my complaints about C: DA is that I have to have a 100-point HQ. I get it back in free wargear but it's still a pain sometimes. Also, I can run my HQ as an IC, whereas he's stuck in his retinue for you. Small loss of flexibility there.

As I suspected, the price increase for lascannons and squad power weapons is what got me in the end, even with the discount for the predator. And I'm pretty sure that those price changes will carry through into a C: SM redux even if it has fixed squads as an option, not a default.

Nonetheless, I concede that Tactical Combat Squads can be duplicated using C: SM without impacting army build. It's a bigger bonus for Devastator and Assault squads, of course, having less FOC slots for them, and more things to put in those slots, but at lower points-value games it's not going to matter.