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View Full Version : Interesting idea - Sensei = Adeptus Custodes



Hellebore
16-03-2007, 07:36
It was just something that struck me, there isn't any evidence to deny it, so let the conspiracy theories begin.

What if the Sensei (the Emperor's natural progeny who are immortal etc) are either the original Custodes, or joined/hid amongst them? How powerful would a Sensei be if they were marine-ified? The Custodes were supposed to be uber, more puissant that even the Grey Knights...
What better way to protect the Emperor than with his own offspring (cf Malcaor Sigilite) - they never die, are almost immune to the depredations of chaos and are sterile - they can't increase their numbers and become a threat.

Not claiming it to be true, but heh, it's fun to speculate.

Hellebore

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-03-2007, 08:15
Custodians are not marines.

I don't know what they do to them, but it's not the same as what they do to a marine. Supposedly they are born like that?

Melchiah
16-03-2007, 08:19
He didnt that they were marines, just if they were given marine-like abilities.

Urza
16-03-2007, 09:18
Horus Heresy Vol 1: Visions of Darkness strongly hints that the Grey Knights are descended from the Custodians in some way, and also that the Custodians are more powerful than normal Space Marines.

Both of these hints make me wonder if the Custodians were some kind of "Space Marine Prototype" whose geneseed was created from a non-Primarch source.. Perhaps the Emperor himself?

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 09:44
I was under the impression the HH art books hinted that Garro and all the loyalist marines from the Traitor legions formed the grey knights.

Before the HH books came out, my personal theory was that the Grey Knights were the only successor chapter to the Custodes, but as far as I know that's been proven false.

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 11:42
Could the Emperor see the Custodians? Yes
Are the Custodians Sensei? No

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 11:43
Is that some obscure allusion to the Sensei being invisible to the Emperor?

I must have missed that memo...

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 11:49
Where in hell are you getting your Sensei info from, then?

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 12:17
It's been several years since I read The Lost and the Damned, so I've probably forgotten a couple of facts.

They would, I assume, only be PSYCHICALLY invisible yes? I mean the Emperor doesn't just trip over invisible people all the time?

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 12:18
It states, absolutely, that they are invisible to him and he is totally unaware of their existence.

Apologist
16-03-2007, 12:22
That makes for some very amusing mental imagery!

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 12:26
:wtf:So the Emperor has no capacity to discover the existence of illegitimate children he produced? Must have missed the talk on how bad the rythm method is for birth control :rolleyes:

I think that the statement "they are invisible to him" could be interpreted to mean psychically. The Emperor could probably find any human mind if he set his mind to it. The statement is a little ambiguous.

However, I can't see how he would never discover them, because all it takes is for him to trip over someone he can't see and everyone around him will be looking at him strangely :p

Also, that wouldn't necessarily preclude them from becoming custodes, of course it might look a little wierd seeing custodes armour walking around without a head.

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 12:31
And who performed the genetic modification to turned people into Custodians?

Ever tried genetically manipulating something you can't see?

Even if (and it's a fairly big if) they were only invisible to him psychically, don't you think he'd kind of notice that some of his Custodians have absolutely no warp presence at all?

Wouldn't there be some mention, somewhere, of Daemons being totally incapable of seeing Custodians if they were sensei?

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 12:47
Jeez, what's up your bonnet?

Several times in the original post I said this was idle speculation, and not supposed to be taken too seriously.

The sensei have disappeared off the radar in 40k, and this seemed like a good enough place to find them. God knows GW has a habit of retconning story to fit older stuff into the newer stuff.

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 13:03
What's in my bonnet is that you haven't taken two seconds to think this stupid idea through, let alone any of the consequences of it. It's idle speculation in the same way that "Orks were created by the C'tan to provide them with a never-ending food source" is idle speculation.

"GW retcon stuff all the time so this could happen"? are you actually serious? by that logic the Emperor could have been created by the Tyranids.

Stupid idea, not thought through even one iota. That's my problem with it.

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 13:14
Umm, ok.

Take your blood pressure pills before you blow an artery.

The Custodes are 'more powerful than a space marine' and uncorruptable.

That sounds superficially similar to SOME of the power of a Sensei. And I wasn't necessarily claiming that every single Custodes was a Sensei - if you happened to read the entire first post rather than skip to the "stupid idea your an idiot" stage.

I'm not sure why you used that fallacious example to justify your opinion, there is documented evidence the C'tan didn't create the Krork.

There is not, however, any evidence for the origins of the Custodes, NOR anything explaining the disappearance of the Sensei.

So althought the Emperor was unaware of their existence (no matter how mind boggling that concept may be), it isn't impossible for them to be at least PART of the Custodes.

However, it IS impossible for the C'tan to have created the orks, because there's a goddamn sentence saying they were created by the Old Ones.

Show me a sentence that categorically states there aren't Sensei amongst the Custodes? The Emperor is in no position to stumble over Sensei amongst his Custodes NOW is he? Almost no one even encounters the Custodian guard, let alone spends long enough to determine whether they are even HUMAN. The only one regularly encountered is their Captain amongst the High Lords - and one person does not a whole sample set make.

Alicia Dominica met them, and she never complained. So we can be reasonably sure that they are at least human in appearance.

Nice to see overreaction is alive and well on the internet :rolleyes:

EDIT: And you've completely disregarded the Sigilite, who is strongly hinted at being related to the Emperor, if not a son. I'm sure the Emperor had a great time talking to an invisible master of the Adminstratum...

Hellebore

Tyron
16-03-2007, 13:33
The Emperor never knew he had any children, they are blanks to him anyways so he would never be able to detect them. By chance one might be recruited as a Custodian Guard but that is a very very very slim chance.

Charax
16-03-2007, 13:34
I'm not disregarding the sigilite at all - I actually bother to *read* the old RoC books when I use them as a basis for something. The Sensei are only some of the Emperor's offspring, the sons, where a particular genetic trait manifests that gives them their abilities and makes them invisible to the Emperor and other psykers. It's entirely possible for the Sigilite to be one of his grandsons where this trait did not manifest.

See the advantages of actually reading the background?

Apologist
16-03-2007, 13:34
Ignoring the HURR IT AM NOT WERK LIKE DAT READ TEH FLUF N008!, it is rather good fodder for exploration. Might help the discussion were someone to clarify the original background for sensei, illuminati etc; and then to draw parallels with the Custodes.

My personal interpretation is that there's virtually no background on the Custodes full-stop; and while I think it's more likely that the Sensei have been ret-conned out of the background entirely, it's quite a neat idea – and certainly more imaginative than the 'Illuminati were Tzeentch worshippers idea'.

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 14:01
I'm not disregarding the sigilite at all - I actually bother to *read* the old RoC books when I use them as a basis for something. The Sensei are only some of the Emperor's offspring, the sons, where a particular genetic trait manifests that gives them their abilities and makes them invisible to the Emperor and other psykers. It's entirely possible for the Sigilite to be one of his grandsons where this trait did not manifest.

See the advantages of actually reading the background?

So you are going to resort to snide pomposity?

Ok, so you want to get right into the background.

What exact page is the section on the Emperor not knowing of the existence of the Sensei?

I'm looking at pages 185-186 titled the Sensei in my copy of the Lost and the Damned. Now I will freely admit that there could be other material out there I'm not privy to, I've only got the two Realms of Chaos books to go by.

And it says:

"When a champion of Khorne, Nurgle, or any other Chaos Power pledges himself to the service of his patron power, his very soul becomes a part of the power's energies. The Star Child (which it says in the previous paragraph is the soul of the Emperor and humanity - a potential) also has his champions, known as the Sensei." (page 185)

So, the Emperor has champions that are 'invisible to him' eh?

"Although they do not necessarily know their true identity, these people are actually descended from the Emperor's own descendants, and their genetic structure is similar to his." (page 185).

So they aren't necessarily his sons either.

Your statement about not all the Emperor's descendents being Sensei pans out with the line:

"Not all the Emperor's descendants are Sensei.." (page 185).

"Their most important trait is their immortality. Although they can be killed they do not age, and possess amazing powers of recovery (sounds space mariney to me). They are also protected from the Chaos Powers, and the untainted flow of the warp can move through them unimpeded." (page 185).


So I'm not sure that ANYWHERE within that section on the Sensei there is something that prevents them being in the Adeptus Custodes.

Hellebore

d.i.greene
16-03-2007, 14:22
I'm not disregarding the sigilite at all - I actually bother to *read* the old RoC books when I use them as a basis for something. The Sensei are only some of the Emperor's offspring, the sons, where a particular genetic trait manifests that gives them their abilities and makes them invisible to the Emperor and other psykers. It's entirely possible for the Sigilite to be one of his grandsons where this trait did not manifest.

See the advantages of actually reading the background?

So everything in the RoC books is still current background? Even a moronic idea like the Emperor not being able to *see* his own offspring (as opposed to them being psychic blanks)? That must have been interesting in the hospital:

Doctor: It's a boy, Mrs Emperor!
Mrs Emperor: Oh, how lovely!
Emperor: What's going on? Why are you lying with your legs in the air? What's that man holding?

Stupid. :rolleyes:

Hellebore: As it happens, I think your idea is unlikely, but it's interesting: ignore the Ogryn. :)

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 14:27
It was just supposed to be an idle speculation, but we had to get indignant and serious about it.

I don't think it's very likely either, but that doesn't mean one ignores the option.

Hellebore

d.i.greene
16-03-2007, 14:29
It was just supposed to be an idle speculation, but we had to get indignant and serious about it.

I don't think it's very likely either, but that doesn't mean one ignores the option.

Hellebore

Sorry, mate: I was trying to support your point in my post (although perhaps I didn't phrase it very well). I agree it's an interesting idea: didn't mean to rain on your parade.

:)

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 14:33
No I was referring to previous posts, not yours. I should probably have put a rolling eyes emoticon in there.

Your stance is simply what I was looking for - simply thinking about the topic, and looking at it from different angles. :)

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 14:43
Page 217, Slaves to Darkness, first column, third paragraph:
"they are psychic blanks, who cannot be seen or sensed by psykers" - note, it doesn't say "Cannot be sensed using psychic abilities", it says that they "cannot be seen or sensed" - at all, even with a psyker's natural senses. The Emperor is a psyker (it says this directly before that quote) so he cannot see or sense them.

Second column, second paragraph:
"The Emperor and the Sensei are unaware of their relationship"
"He cannot see something invisible to his psychic senses"

You could argue that this means that since his internment on the Golden Throne he is unable to sense anything except psychically, but that wouldn't apply to the first quote - most other psykers are not blind, and as far as I am aware the majority of psykers are not on the Golden Throne.

d.i. greene: This entire idea HINGES on RoC background - that's the background that states that Sensei are Immortal, that's the background that states that they're comparable in power to Marines, that's the entirety of the background of the Sensei. Without the RoC background this idea would not exist. It's just a shame that the same background that bore this idea also destroys it. I'm going to choose to ignore the insult.

d.i.greene
16-03-2007, 14:56
Charax:

You could easily interpret everything you've quoted above in a psychic sense. As the idea that the pre-Golden Throne Emperor (or any psychic) can't *physically* see certain people with a unique set of genes seems stupid to me, I prefer to interpret it that way. Which makes the idea of Sensei being Custodes possible, albeit improbable.

However, I apologise for the insult: I was annoyed by the way you cut-down Hellebore's idea, but shouldn't have got ratty.

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 14:57
Thanks for posting those pages.

It does indeed say that in Slaves to Darkness (I've only recently acquired that one, and was inder the assumption that the Lost and the Damned was the only book that referred to the Sensei).

However, the LatD contradicts the bit about not seeing them, because they are his champions and are soul bound to him. I'm not sure how that is supposed to reconcile between the two.

Also, they must be using a different meaning for the term psychic blank, because that has only ever been used when referring to soulless humans - pariahs and other warp blunts.

Obviously a Sensei can't be a blank, because they've given their souls to the Emperor. So perhaps their ability to have the 'untainted flow of the warp' somehow precludes them from being seen?

Now, the Illuminati bit at the end interests me though.

It says they "have sought out and protected the Sensei, even helping the Sensei establish their secret 'Long Watch' of Sensei Knights..."

and

"At the moment the Emperor's will breaks, the Illuminati will offer up the remaining Sensei in a sacrifice to the Golden Throne of Earth."

The illuminati are (generally) powerful Inquisitors who have resisted daemoic posession.

What better place to stock pile your Star Child fuel (in the 'protecting' of the Sensei) than right at the foot of the Golden Throne itself?

EDIT: Right underneath this is a section on how the Emperor must never know of the plan, because he might collapse prematurely. Similarly the Sensei must never know, or they may not like being godbait.

So somehow the Emperor's own mortal champions who are soul bound to him but are blanks, manage to never be discovered by him?

Perhaps me sees why they've avoided the Sensei fluff for so long - it doesn't make alot of sense.

I believe the old fluff did nothing to dispel this idea whatsoever, it merely put more fuel on the conspiracy fire. :p

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 15:08
I don't see a problem reconciling the soul-binding with the inability to sense them at all - think of it as them merely leeching energy from the Emperor's warp-form without him noticing, that energy fuels their amazing powers, but he's still unaware of them. Kind of like a leech - it injects an anaesthetic while it feeds, so you're feeding it your blood, but you don't know it's there.

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 15:13
That's about the only reason I could think of to explain it, although the LatD refers to them as analogous to chaos champions, favoured by their god, which would be hard if he didn't know they were there.

So, what about the great and awesome Illuminati Sensei stockpile, can't get much more protected and/or centralised to the GT for the ascension, having the Sensei as Custodians. And the StD even says a Sensei is the natural equivalent to a space marine...

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 15:24
that still doesn't, in any way, support the idea that the custodes *are* the Sensei - it's convenient, yes, but it's also convenient to have them on a moon somewhere - you're going to need more than "It's a convenient place to store people with the strength of marines" to make this a viable idea.

It's also fundamentally inconvenient - the Illuminati need the sensei *alive* to complete the Great Plan. Fighting a never-ending war against Daemons at the heart of the Imperial Palace doesn't exactly lend itself to survival.

As you said, Illuminati are predominantly Inquisitors - which means they cannot have had any hand in forming the Astartes, the Inquisition wasn't founded until far, far later than the internment into the Throne, which in itself was much later than the creation of the Custodes. Quite how a group can organise the formation of the Custodians several millennia before it's own creation I have no idea.

And then you have the problem of the Emperor being unable to see his own bodyguards...

What is far more feasible is that the Illuminati lead the Long Watch around the galaxy fighting Chaos (possibly deliberately choosing threats that stand no chance against the sensei to avoid losing too many before the Great Sacrifice), planning to take them back to Terra when the Emperor's ascension is close. This makes far more sense than the Illuminati travelling back to the Imperial Palace every few years to drop off a new batch of Custodians (How much suspicion would that raise?).

Hellebore
16-03-2007, 15:29
As I said in the original, very first post, SOME of the Custodes could be Sensei.

No one can detect them, apparently the Emperor can't see them, what better place to hide from Imperial persecution as it says in the StD than to be right at the foot of the GT.

Also, unless the Custodians are the same ones from 10,000 years ago, they need to recruit - and an Illuminati shouldn't have too much trouble slotting a Sensei into the recruitment line - they pass all the tests with flying colours, they won't have any psychic taint that a psyker can pick up, are strong and tough - they would be considered ideal recruits.

The Illuminati seek out Sensei, they find them, and have been doing so for thousands of years. Surely they would have found a few and offered them sanctuary on Terra, thereby stockpiling them for the Ascension, protecting them from harm, protecting the EMPEROR with super warriors, and in all ways creating a win win situation.

Like I said, if not even the Emperor can detect them, who is going to warn the High Lords that the Emperor's descendants are guarding him?

Hellebore

Charax
16-03-2007, 15:42
Also, unless the Custodians are the same ones from 10,000 years ago, they need to recruit - and an Illuminati shouldn't have too much trouble slotting a Sensei into the recruitment line - they pass all the tests with flying colours, they won't have any psychic taint that a psyker can pick up, are strong and tough - they would be considered ideal recruits.

I would love to sit in on that recruitment:

"Recruit is ready for genetic Modification....wait, he doesn't need it"
"Does he have any taint, psyker?"
"Who?"
"The recruit"
"What recruit?"
"That Recruit" *points*
"There's nobody there"

They're not just "Strong and tough", they're stronger and tougher than a marine before any modifications.

It's not that they "won't have any psychic taint that a psyker can pick up" - they don't have a body that a Psyker can pick up - at the very least they'd be considered mutants.

I do not think it's possible for any custodians, at any point, to have been Sensei - especially not during the Emperor's time - he'd surely have noticed the empty suits of armour when the Custodes went into battle.

alexgrunt
16-03-2007, 17:03
IMHO, the psychic-blank Senseď have been reintroduced by GW in the "new fluff" under the guise of the whole Culexus/Pariah gene.
Thus, impossible for them to be Custodes or being Dark Senseďs.
Though Hellebore's idea is appealling ...

Carlos
16-03-2007, 17:52
The Sensei dont exist anymore. GW wrote them out of 40K a loooong time ago (2nd edition) as they were a daft piece of fluff, just like all the Star Child ********.

1st Edition is gone. Only the modern canon mentioned in the BGB/Codecies remains.

Charax
16-03-2007, 17:58
Wow. someone's blinkered.

So no background from 2nd or third edition remains? only the currently-published rulebooks and codices count?

So the Thorian sourcebook isn't canon? it's not "The BGB" nor is it a codex.
Epic Armageddon, no canon there.
BFG: Armada

Kyrolon
16-03-2007, 18:14
Actually, they haven't been completely written out of the background. The brand new Dark Angels codex in the section detailing past battles of the chapter mentions the cleansing of a sensei cult. They may have changed since RT era, but they still exist. IIRC the beliefs of this cult were mentioned as sounding like an outsider's half understood version of the sensei as presented in LatD and StD.

~Dan

Mechanicus
16-03-2007, 18:31
The Sensei dont exist anymore. GW wrote them out of 40K a loooong time ago (2nd edition) as they were a daft piece of fluff, just like all the Star Child ********.

1st Edition is gone. Only the modern canon mentioned in the BGB/Codecies remains. Not according to GW.


Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

Marc Gascoigne
Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame Black Library publishing is the publishing division of GW PLC, so I'm afraid it's all canon. Yes, everything. 1st edition? Yep. 2nd Edition? Yep. Dawn of War? Yep. Epic Final Liberation? Yep. The Horus Heresy CCG? Yep. Black Library books? Yep.

Not only that, but there is no omniscient viewpoint:


Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propoganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history ... Emphasis mine.

Any contradictions? Then either the original or the current background is incorrect. That's for you to choose. But more often, inconsistencies are easily explainable.

MadDoc
17-03-2007, 02:18
Firstly, to address Mecahnicus' point about there being no omniscient perspective on the background, nice use of a quote out of context there by the way. :p The statement you quoted was in response to people bleating on about contradictory information coming out in BL books and didn't really addressing the "Eye of God" perspective pieces published in other GW material, for example the "The Horus Heresy" artbooks (Vol. I-VI) has the story of the Heresy told from an outside observers perspective and show little bias, just a simple recounting of events.

The gist of the statement was that anything, anyone, in any of our novels says is to be taken as their own view/perception of an event and may or may not agree with the story as it actually happened, a standard cover-our-asses rider that also allows their writers lee-way to be creative.

Anyway to my actual point, in the "Horus Heresy: Vision of War" its stated that the Custodes were, and I quote, "The first group of genetically and psychologically modified troops he created..."

It also goes on to say that the Custodians are effectlivey uber-Marines with access to everything Marines can get plus lots of special kit only they can get, like the Guardian Spear (Power axe with an integral bolt gun).

As for how long lived the Custodes are the Horus heresy novels give an indication, Constantine Valdor Chief Custodian already at the time of Horus' rediscovery and throughout the Great Crusade and eventually the Heresy, is mentioned in one of the books, the specifc book alludes me at present I'm afraid, as having been present in the Lunar Laboratories during the creation of the Primarchs. It hinted they could well be immortal (not stated, hinted).

I think its highly unlikely if not impossible that any of the Custodian Guard could be Sensei as they're discribed as the most loyal uncorruptable of the Emperor's troops, due in no smalll part I would suggest to the Rigid screening of Candidates. The Emperor would've no doubt handled the vetting of recruits prior to his ascension to the Golden throne and so he would have been alittle suspect of anybody showing as a blank to his psychic senses, and after his internment I don't imagine there being any slackening in the process (that is should it even be required, they might be immortal remember (if the Big E had used some of his own juice to supe the Custodes up this would make sense)).

As for references to the Sensei psychic blanks being the same as the contemporary references to Pariahs, the Sisters of Silence are hinted to be, to a woman, Pariahs. I still find it alittle odd that the Emperor would have such a large concentration of Pariahs anywhere near him (why would he want a mobile living psychic null field that could potentially follow him round and fudge up his powers?), but it appears the Sisters are generally spread far and wide and so tend not to be around the Emperor. This is heading OT so I'll kill that thought there...

MD

Plebian
17-03-2007, 04:11
What exactly *Are* the Custodes? Are they human, or what? Has GW ever posted stats for them?
-Plebian

Icewyrm
17-03-2007, 06:08
The HH Art books state that the Custodes are to the Emperor what the Space Marines are to the Primarchs, Vol II pg 41. The first volume simply says that they are stronger than marines and that they only number 1000.

Other than that I haven't seen any stats ever posted. Based on the HH Art books they seem to be equipped with all the snazzy wargear of that time as well as their nice Guardian Spears.

As to the initial posit of sensei being in the Custodes I would doubt it but if Malcador might be the Emperor's progeny than I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibilty. The only BL reference to a sensei that I am aware of is in the Inquisition War series, I think in the last book iirc.

Hellebore
17-03-2007, 06:29
Anyway to my actual point, in the "Horus Heresy: Vision of War" its stated that the Custodes were, and I quote, "The first group of genetically and psychologically modified troops he created..."


Which of course doesn't preclude a sensei from being one. It is a stretch to think the Emperor never noticed, but then he never noticed the disloyalty and betrayal brewing amongst his primarchs either....oh burn!:p



It also goes on to say that the Custodians are effectlivey uber-Marines with access to everything Marines can get plus lots of special kit only they can get, like the Guardian Spear (Power axe with an integral bolt gun).


As the original info says they are a natural equivalent to a space marine, but not actually one, it would be logical that they, physiologically speaking, were identical to a human (the Emperor was human, and I imagine all the women he was doin the wild thang with were too). Which means that they could then have been modified, making them even nastier than a marine (marine X2).



As for how long lived the Custodes are the Horus heresy novels give an indication, Constantine Valdor Chief Custodian already at the time of Horus' rediscovery and throughout the Great Crusade and eventually the Heresy, is mentioned in one of the books, the specifc book alludes me at present I'm afraid, as having been present in the Lunar Laboratories during the creation of the Primarchs. It hinted they could well be immortal (not stated, hinted).


That's only a couple of hundred years though, easily achievable by a space marine. And the Sensei ARE immortal, so noone is going to think twice about that...



I think its highly unlikely if not impossible that any of the Custodian Guard could be Sensei as they're discribed as the most loyal uncorruptable of the Emperor's troops, due in no smalll part I would suggest to the Rigid screening of Candidates. The Emperor would've no doubt handled the vetting of recruits prior to his ascension to the Golden throne and so he would have been alittle suspect of anybody showing as a blank to his psychic senses, and after his internment I don't imagine there being any slackening in the process (that is should it even be required, they might be immortal remember (if the Big E had used some of his own juice to supe the Custodes up this would make sense)).


Here is where the idea that Emperor has no knowledge of the Sensei breaks down. He met millions of people, billions of people, and somehow never ran into someone he couldn't see but others could.

If it wasn't for that piece of background, the Emperor being a man of science would definitely have studied a person like that, discovered what they were, and put them to good use (seeing as how they've already got some of his 'own juice' to supe them up :p).


Hellebore

Ardathair
17-03-2007, 06:50
What exactly *Are* the Custodes? Are they human, or what? Has GW ever posted stats for them?
-Plebian

There were stats in Rogue Trader, the basic Adeptus Custodus was the equivelant of a human minor hero (ie elites choice Inquisitor in current terms), the heroes got even more powerful. 2 wounds on the basic Custodus made them very tough.

The whole "can not be seen or sensed by psychers" gets really fun when you notice that one of the possibilities for followers (fromThe Lost and the Damned) for a Sensei was psycher. How does someone follow a leader whom they can neither see nor sense?:confused:

The background for these two groups is rather sketchy, but I have a hard time seeing it. Since there is no information on what was done to make Custodus different, it is hard to tell. Would the modifications muck up any chance of "The fortuitous combination of genes" which make him a Sensei? I think they would.

Hellebore
17-03-2007, 06:53
The background for these two groups is rather sketchy, but I have a hard time seeing it. Since there is no information on what was done to make Custodus different, it is hard to tell. Would the modifications muck up any chance of "The fortuitous combination of genes" which make him a Sensei? I think they would.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The fortuitous combination of genes is simply their genotype. The modifications the Emperor performed on his Custodians would add to, alter, or replace parts of that genome. Why it would replace precisely the very few genes the Sensei would have from the Emperor is something I can't really see.

Hellebore

Ardathair
17-03-2007, 07:10
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The fortuitous combination of genes is simply their genotype. The modifications the Emperor performed on his Custodians would add to, alter, or replace parts of that genome. Why it would replace precisely the very few genes the Sensei would have from the Emperor is something I can't really see.

Hellebore

Both groups have their longevity, strength and durability affected.

How much modification was done to the Custodian genome?

How very few genes are required for someone to be born a Sensei?

"The fortuitous combination of genes" is a direct quote from The Lost and the Damned stating why some, not all, descendents of the Emperor are Sensei.

In both cases genetics makes them superhuman. When they affect some of the same qualities, it does raise the possibility that they are affecting some of the same genes.

Hellebore
17-03-2007, 07:14
I wasn't disagreeing that is was possible, just that it wasn't necessarily likely which was what you seemed to be implying.

See, isn't this fun? Idle speculation about lesser known areas of fluff? We don't have start tearing each other apart to have a cool discussion.;)

Personally, I don't think the Custodes are, or even HAVE Sensei amongst them, but it's fun to speculate (or at least, it's fun when everyone can get along and not take it too seriously).

Hellebore

MadDoc
17-03-2007, 07:32
Which of course doesn't preclude a sensei from being one. It is a stretch to think the Emperor never noticed, but then he never noticed the disloyalty and betrayal brewing amongst his primarchs either....oh burn!:p

But I somehow doubt the Chaos Gods would've been muddying the Immaterial waters to stop him noticing that one of the Sensei had managed to bypass his screening to become a member of the Custodian Guard. They had a vested interest in keeping the true extent of the traitor Primarchs actions from the Emperor, made easier by him focusing all his energies on his experiment under the Imperial Palace. :p


As the original info says they are a natural equivalent to a space marine, but not actually one, it would be logical that they, physiologically speaking, were identical to a human (the Emperor was human, and I imagine all the women he was doin the wild thang with were too). Which means that they could then have been modified, making them even nastier than a marine (marine X2).

There's still the problem of getting through the screening and vetting process, which considering the Cusodians were created as his personal Praetorian guard, would no doubt have been exhaustive to say the least.


That's only a couple of hundred years though, easily achievable by a space marine. And the Sensei ARE immortal, so noone is going to think twice about that...

I was refering to the fact that Space Marines are said to be immortal in the novels, but more so the fact tha by the time of his presence in the Lunar Labs it appears he's been in the Emperor's service for sometime already.


Here is where the idea that Emperor has no knowledge of the Sensei breaks down. He met millions of people, billions of people, and somehow never ran into someone he couldn't see but others could.

I'm not sure the passage from SoD literally means physically incapable of seeing them I was taking its vague wording to mean blind to his psychic senses. But anyway...


If it wasn't for that piece of background, the Emperor being a man of science would definitely have studied a person like that, discovered what they were, and put them to good use (seeing as how they've already got some of his 'own juice' to supe them up :p).

He could have come across some but being psychic blanks to any psyker's witch-sight he may have just taken them to be Pariahs. Not unlikely under the circumstances, he clearly knew of Pariahs, theres the Sisters of Silence for a start.

MD

Ardathair
17-03-2007, 11:30
Sensei infiltrating Custodus? Interesting idea.

Longevity, strength and resiliance, on par.

The biggest problem would be how few Custodus there are. Since it is inherited, then the Custodus must be a clan effectively, everyone related to everyone else within the past few generations. Now given the stats and background I could see a Sensei passing off as a Custodus to an outsider, especially if a combat broke out, but other Custodus would ferrett him out in a few minutes of down time.

Mechanicus
17-03-2007, 12:06
Firstly, to address Mecahnicus' point about there being no omniscient perspective on the background, nice use of a quote out of context there by the way. :p The statement you quoted was in response to people bleating on about contradictory information coming out in BL books and didn't really addressing the "Eye of God" perspective pieces published in other GW material, for example the "The Horus Heresy" artbooks (Vol. I-VI) has the story of the Heresy told from an outside observers perspective and show little bias, just a simple recounting of events.

The gist of the statement was that anything, anyone, in any of our novels says is to be taken as their own view/perception of an event and may or may not agree with the story as it actually happened, a standard cover-our-asses rider that also allows their writers lee-way to be creative. I do see where you're coming from, but before I continue - has it ever been stated that there is an "eye of god" perspective? I've asked this quite a few times, and have never actually gotten an answer... Either way, the quote (whether you want to take it as applying in general or just to BL books) is already covered in the other quote, albeit less explicitly ("Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.").

MadDoc
17-03-2007, 12:28
I do see where you're coming from, but before I continue - has it ever been stated that there is an "eye of god" perspective? I've asked this quite a few times, and have never actually gotten an answer... Either way, the quote (whether you want to take it as applying in general or just to BL books) is already covered in the other quote, albeit less explicitly ("Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.").

The info given in any Codex, particularly the newer ones, tends towards a slight bias for the army in question, obviously as its their book its supposed to capture the feel of the army. Also a certain amount of mystique can add to an armies cool factor.

In the case of the Heresy artbooks, they recount the Heresy in a fairly unbiased way, hell its one of the first places Magnus is truly made out to be a poor un-witting victim whose's forced into a position where he has little choice but to turn to someone/something for aid.

I have yet to get my hands on a legit copy of the Heresy novels but having read the excerpt from FotE I definitely intend to.

I will admit its a hard call between "Eye of God" perspective and "Our" story, "Their" story and the "True" story approach.

MD

Mechanicus
17-03-2007, 13:07
The info given in any Codex, particularly the newer ones, tends towards a slight bias for the army in question, obviously as its their book its supposed to capture the feel of the army. Also a certain amount of mystique can add to an armies cool factor. Agreed.


In the case of the Heresy artbooks, they recount the Heresy in a fairly unbiased way, hell its one of the first places Magnus is truly made out to be a poor un-witting victim whose's forced into a position where he has little choice but to turn to someone/something for aid.

I have yet to get my hands on a legit copy of the Heresy novels but having read the excerpt from FotE I definitely intend to. Unbiased, perhaps - but I would still argue that it's from someone's viewpoint, whether they be a dedicated remembrancer or an iterator determined to record the truth (See the HH novels, remembrancers are recording the Great Crusade, and iterators are public speakers and perhaps diplomats. I would definitely recommend the HH novels). ;)


I will admit its a hard call between "Eye of God" perspective and "Our" story, "Their" story and the "True" story approach. Of course, there's always the possibility that either "their" or "our" story is the same as the "true" story - whatever that is perceived to be. :)

Barltok
17-03-2007, 19:43
Might invisible to the psykers simply mean that they can't see their psychic aspect? As opposed to being a massive beacon of psychic power that a descendant of the emperor would likely put off, wouldn't it be better if they just hid it well and appear to be a normal human without any psyker abilities?

Charax
17-03-2007, 19:45
it might, in the same way that Space Marines might mean Marines made of pure Space.

Invisible to Psykers means Invisible to Psykers, not Invisible to Psychic Abilities.

precinctomega
17-03-2007, 21:03
The truth is that this discussion is taking in two groups within the 40kverse about whom we know practically nothing. So practically anything could be true, depending on what emerges concerning these two organizations in the future.

R.

Incendax
17-03-2007, 23:07
Page 217, Slaves to Darkness, first column, third paragraph:
"they are psychic blanks, who cannot be seen or sensed by psykers" - note, it doesn't say "Cannot be sensed using psychic abilities", it says that they "cannot be seen or sensed" - at all, even with a psyker's natural senses. The Emperor is a psyker (it says this directly before that quote) so he cannot see or sense them. It is more probable that this is an author editing error than the true intention of the writer. In any case the modern definition of See and Sense can be used interchangeably to generate a different and potentially no less likely result than the one Charax has determined to use.


Second column, second paragraph:
"The Emperor and the Sensei are unaware of their relationship"
"He cannot see something invisible to his psychic senses"


The most likely interpretation in my opinion is that the Emperor is currently unaware of the whereabouts or survival of his Sensei children, just as his children are unaware of him. However, this sentence brings up a great deal of problems unless it is also a writers error. It insinuates that the Sensei likewise either are unaware that the Emperor is their father or that the Sensei literally cannot see their Father. The likelyhood that they were not told during their presumedly immortal lifetime is probably near zilch, but not entirely impossible.

Perhaps that first scentence merely refers to the Sensei being unaware that they derive their own power from that of the Emperor? That would simultaneously add a little credibility to the idea that the Emperor cannot see them (he only sees himself when he looks).

Another major problem is that the children are super-human. This could not have escaped the Emperor's notice unless the Emperor frequently abandoned his children or their pregnant mothers. Not all the Sensei would likely have been a low-key superpower. Some, inevitably, had to rise to power and attempt actions that the Emperor deemed either worthy enough to recieve attention or worthy enough to destroy. The fact that there was super-powered entities running around that the emperor could not see but could still recieve secondhand reports about would just complicate things and drive him further to investigation. Of those he interacted with it seems ludicrous that he would not have recruited at least one to his cause.

Still, for all the vast improbability, it could still have happened. The Emperor may indeed have Sensei children, born of abandoned mothers, who managed to stay in the shadows this entire time, whose existence the Emperor is completely unaware of because all reports he dismissed as interesting but ultimately unworthy of deeper consideration in the face of more important ventures.

More likely the Emperor had many Sensei children he was visually aware of but psychically assumed were dead. What he did with them would vary greatly upon how long he studied them and allowed them to grow up and demonstraight their super-human capabilities. From there, he could have had a working relationship with several while others wandered off on their own Agenda. Over the milennia, the current emperor has become unaware of the goings on of his various Sensei or wether they even survive. Some probably rose to power, some didn't, and a scarce few probably work underneath him even to this day.

Hellebore
17-03-2007, 23:43
it might, in the same way that Space Marines might mean Marines made of pure Space.

Invisible to Psykers means Invisible to Psykers, not Invisible to Psychic Abilities.

That's not really a good comparisson, because "space marine" is a title for a given group, whilst "Invisible to psykers" is a descriptor about a group.

A literal translation of "Space Marine" could give:

"An unlimited or incalculably great three-dimensional realm or expanse pertaining exclusively to the sea."

Titles need not be easily understandable because they are a label to denote something specific that doesn't have to be specific itself (marines could be called fhqwgads but we would still no what it was the Title for), whilst descriptions are interpretable.

The description "invisible to psykers" would be fairly obvious that they were visually invisible if psykers weren't also described as being able to 'see' with their ability. If it said "invisible to ordinary humans" there is only one interpretation, because humans only have one vision.

As a psyker has two senses, both of which referred to as 'sight', it creates ambiguity in my opinion.

Hellebore

Fulgrim's Gimp
18-03-2007, 07:57
I think also GW changed its view of the sensei between STD and LATD, consider the grey sensei mentioned only in STD and the mentioning in STD that sensei were his sons and not other descendants.
Interestingly in Flight of the Eisenstein there is the following excerpt
' the custodians are related to the Emperor as a marine is to a primarch'. Could be taken literally to mean they are his sons.

Finnith
18-03-2007, 09:56
I like this topic so i signed up just to write in it :)

There seems to be some mixing of sources here (Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned). They both have sensei in but they directly contradict each other so you cant really take bits you like from both and mash them together.

Slaves to Darkness states that only the Emprors direct children can be Sensei and they are infertile. How can he not see his own children being born? Since they are also immortal could this mean that there might be a sensei only 20 or so years younger than the emperor himself? If it wasnt for the cannot be seen by Psykers then this seems like an excellent way to recruit a troop of super warriors to guard yourself; immortal, almost immune to chaos, very powerful. Sounds perfect to me. There would also be the fact that the Emperor is probably not in his prime of life atm so the youngest a sensei could be is at least 10,000 years old.

Lost and the Damned on the otherhand says that the Emperor doesnt know about them because they pop up randomly, leave no out of the ordinary warp signature so they cant be distinguished from normal people other than immortallity, good health etc.

This is interesting because it could mean that rather than important historical figures being the Emperor they could be his genes asserting themselves and getting people into power, then you get interbreeding between ruling clases, (Egypt, Ancient China, European Monarchs) eventually your going to have a new sensei born again. The Emperor could have used this as a recruiting ground to collect the greatest minds/warriors/strategists that mankind had to offer.

Charax
18-03-2007, 10:17
Interestingly in Flight of the Eisenstein there is the following excerpt
' the custodians are related to the Emperor as a marine is to a primarch'. Could be taken literally to mean they are his sons.

No, it couldn't.

Space Marines have NEVER been the sons of their primarch except metaphorically. Marines are humans genetically altered to exhibit traits similar to those of their primarch.

So custodians are genetically altered humans that exhibit traits similar to the Emperor.


The description "invisible to psykers" would be fairly obvious that they were visually invisible if psykers weren't also described as being able to 'see' with their ability. If it said "invisible to ordinary humans" there is only one interpretation, because humans only have one vision.

As a psyker has two senses, both of which referred to as 'sight', it creates ambiguity in my opinion.

However, the description isn't just "Unable to be seen by psykers" - it's "unable to be seen or sensed by Psykers - that last bit is important because it goes beyond just sight, it states that Psykers cannot sense Sensei - at all, with any senses.

This is hardly unprecedented, recall that the Culexi have their abilities honed so that human minds refuse to acknowledge their existence for more than a fleeting moment - The sensei have this same ability, but confined to Psykers and without the "more than a fleeting moment" bit.

Fulgrim's Gimp
18-03-2007, 11:52
Or custodians are descendants of the Emperor who share a close genetic link with him,much like astartes share a genetic link with their primarch despite being of varying 'origins'

Charax
18-03-2007, 12:00
"The Custodians are related to the emperor as marines are to their Primarch"

Marines aren't the sons of their Primarch, so your own quote shoots down your theory

Fulgrim's Gimp
18-03-2007, 19:31
Not sons as in biological parental sense, but as in having a coefficient of relatedness of greater than 50%. Some of the first founding marines consider their genetic bond to be greater with their primarch than with their biological parents c.f Eidolon. True,I should have clarified what I said as:
It -could- hint to a reference to the sensei at a stretch, but I think it boils down to you (Charax) don't think the original theory has any merit , while others do.

LexxBomb
19-03-2007, 00:15
I was under the imperssion that the Custodes were the VERY first army the Emperor created back on terra. they dont have power armour and they use a lasgun attached to a halbard. sure the idea for the original nemesis force weapon comes straight from the custodian halbard but hey. as far as im convinced the custodes could have been the the emperors first attempts at making primarchs. kinda makes sence cos then you get the them being nearly immortal and bad as strong. remember the primarchs still can die of old age.

mind you GW seems to be designing and marketing the game for young kids now. god the stuff we were reading as fluff back in the day was before most of the kids playing today were born.

Incendax
19-03-2007, 01:10
However, the description isn't just "Unable to be seen by psykers" - it's "unable to be seen or sensed by Psykers - that last bit is important because it goes beyond just sight, it states that Psykers cannot sense Sensei - at all, with any senses.

This is hardly unprecedented, recall that the Culexi have their abilities honed so that human minds refuse to acknowledge their existence for more than a fleeting moment - The sensei have this same ability, but confined to Psykers and without the "more than a fleeting moment" bit.Regardless, in this instance you are chosing the definition of a set of terms that the writer may not have been using. It is always best to determine which set of definitions are pertinent to a context before arguing the absoluteness of any of them. Merely debating the likelyhood of a probability is of any use.

Hellebore
19-03-2007, 01:17
The culexi (mmm, latinised plurals) however have no soul, and this creates their power to disrupt others' souls.

A Sensei very definitely has a soul, so I'm not sure how their ability is supposed to work.

Everything we know about souls, is that they are sparks in the warp. A psyker's soul on the other hand shines like a torch (and eldar souls look like a lighthouse with a slight taste of awesome).

The Sensei are 'psykers' in that they use warp energy, so why would their soul be invisible - HOW is their soul invisible? The background says it is, so we've got to figure out how in order to figure out how they interact with others'.



I like this topic so i signed up just to write in it :)


Wow, you signed up to discuss a thread I made? I'm flattered. Don't let that stop you posting everywhere else and bringing your knowledge to bear;)

Hellebore

Kage2020
19-03-2007, 02:31
Could the adeptus custodes be the Sensei? It's possible. I personally would not really consider it to be a viable or, more appropriately, interesting alternative. Thus I predict that GW are going to use it as the major plot of their next publication in an attempt to push the fans out once more... ;)

Kage

Emperor's Grace
21-03-2007, 20:46
A Sensei very definitely has a soul, so I'm not sure how their ability is supposed to work.

Everything we know about souls, is that they are sparks in the warp. A psyker's soul on the other hand shines like a torch (and eldar souls look like a lighthouse with a slight taste of awesome).

The Sensei are 'psykers' in that they use warp energy, so why would their soul be invisible - HOW is their soul invisible? The background says it is, so we've got to figure out how in order to figure out how they interact with others'.

There was a GW short story about "Jona" in a world without wheels (Can't remember the title). In it the kid is developing as a psyker.

At one point I think it's mentioned that he has (or should have) learned to "hide his light under a barrel" to avoid further demonic/Inquisitor attention. I remember that it is implied that psykers can learn to shield the bulk of their "light" from sight when not in use.

I'll have to see if I can find the reference.

LexxBomb
23-03-2007, 04:15
I vaguley remember something about all normal pyskers use the warp in a negatic polarity and sensei use it in a positive polarity and that is why it is hard to detect them

Gdolkin
27-03-2007, 20:04
Emperor's Grace is thinking of 'Warped Stars' in the Deathwing anthology.

MvS
28-03-2007, 10:00
The sort of 'blank' that the Sensei were described as being is unrelated to the 'blank' of a culexus assassin. The Sensei imagery was written a long time before the 'refinements' that have led to the whole Untouchable/Pariah imagery of the contemporary background.

The idea that the Sensei are invisible to psykers per se is plainly dull. The point of these characters is that they don't stick out at all until they raise their heads above the parapet. People running around in a galaxy with an increasing number of psykers and who are in fact physically invisible to those psykers is hardly low key. They would eventually raise some eyebrows in their immortal lives. Also, as others have mentioned, the Emperor not seeing his own children during or after their birth is ludicrous - or if he didn't see them, then he would certainly have sought to investigate this rather weird phenomena and would thus have discovered about the nature of his offspring.

I think it more likely that the nature of the Sensei makes them invisible to psykers in a psychic sense. They appear to give off no psychic resonances at all, but not in a way that attracts attention to them, more in a way that makes the psychic 'eye' slip over them without noticing anything. So they can be seen with mundane eyes, but not psychically. They leave no psychic fingerprints where they go and they don't leave anyone feeling uneasy or freaked out like an Untouchable or Pariah would. They are not soulless, they are simply so 'in tune' with the placid and untainted parts of the Warp that they don't really leave enough ripples for psykers to 'see'. They appear so incredibly unremarkable as to make them appear part of the furniture, I think.

I wouldn't hang everything on a precise interpretation of a turn of phrase from a GW book, especially a turn of phrase that seems to be so problematic. Chances are it was just clunky prose that slipped through the editing.

Also, as had been mentioned, there are inconsistencies between the LaTD and StD so it is difficult to compare and contrast them without some level of interpretation. I always made the separation between the Emperor within the Golden Throne and the Star Child, the Emperor's soul, in the Warp. In those old books there is a distinction between these two that is quite profound. The Emperor is a rotting husk of a super-powerful psyker, with a dying brain that is slowly being infiltrated by the Chaos Powers. I can believe that this being is completely blind to the Sensei. The Star Child, on the other hand, would have no such problem perceiving the offspring that it had in its mortal life.

The Emperor may remember having children throughout the tens of thousands of years of his life, but if he is now unable to perceive that at all, no matter where he casts his fading mind in the galaxy, then we can say that as far as it matters the Emperor might believe all his offspring long dead and gone - or, at least, those offspring that are Sensei, if there is a difference between Sensei and non-Sensei offspring.

Can the Sensei join the Adeptus Custodes...? Well I can see the reasoning behind this fun line of questioning, but... I think probably not. I would assume that there is some sort of Custodian making process like with Space Marines and Grey Knights, and I would also assume that the Custodians have their own psykers. That being the case I think it would be unlikely for a Sensei to be in the Custodians without being detected. Now if we suggest there is a happy cover-up going on where the Custodians know of the Sensei and actually want them to join their ranks, then that's a different question.

Brother Valtarius
16-04-2007, 19:39
Could the Emperor see the Custodians? Yes
Are the Custodians Sensei? No

Erm.. what are the Sensei?

eldaran
16-04-2007, 19:45
Sensei are those descendants of the Emperor who have access to the Starchild section of the Warp. They have massive psychic powers, but are sterile. However, they are very rare.

On a related topic, it is thought (by the Illuminati), that if enough of the Sensei are sacrificed at the Golden throne, then the Emperor will be reborn (i think as the Starchild)

The info is all in the Realms of Chaos books, so i kinda old.

Kegluneq
16-04-2007, 20:57
I like the idea - although obviously it means the sensei fluff has to be retconned somewhat. If it were ever implied in the fiction that the Custodes were more than just Marines made from the Emperor's own genes, I'd be quite happy.

The idea of Culexus assassins (and by extension, all Pariahs) being actually without souls is something that's been discussed numerous times here. Personally, I think they do have souls, but ones that are inverted to everyone elses, so that pyschically they appear to be a gulf, rather than an absence (the deeper the hole, the more powerful the Pariah - Culexus assassins and Necron Pariahs, are near bottomless pits, Jurgen and Bequin are more dips or potholes). Simply lacking souls is a bit strange - psykers aren't freaked out by tables or cogitators, and Necrons are not overly gifted in that area anyway. It's also a binary position - all Pariahs would be equally potent if that were the case, and I don't think Jurgen's BO is that bad...

Luthien
16-04-2007, 21:31
indeed some sensei could be custodes the idea is plausible, malcador for example is the imperial regent and is roumoured to have genetic links to the emperor and give the hazy nature of todays fluff roumoured is almost as good as scientifically proven ;) . anyway the idea is entirely plausible, rare, unlikely but plausible and kinda cool