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Talonz
17-03-2007, 21:10
So my goblin army got absolutely trounced by my buddies tree spirit army yesterday. No surprise really, I was absolutely disgusted when I skimmed the WE army book previouslly.

treeman
treeman ancient
3 treekin
10? dryads
2 branchwraithes
wizard
10 gladeguard archers
10 gladeguard scouts
10 wardancers

Even though I nailed his ancient with 3 fanatics and got multiple charges off first (spider riders into wardancers, 30 gob spears and 6 squigs into dryads, 30 spears/general/bsb into 2 wound ancient, and my giant/hoppers into the treeman) I only won one fight, and that because his treeman failed the init test and got thumped out. I lost every other fight as my troops could not wound or got 'trumped' by wood elf special rules (wardancers struck first, ancient had 4 spites 2 of which were shooty and one which made challengers hit on 6s only...that killed my general real quick!).

Treeman are tougher than my giant, with an armour save and ward save. Then add spites. Then add this ridiculous artillery dice worth of hits during the shooting phase (with no misfire penalty!). Then add treesinging (8 attempts in one phase!) that killed one of my wizards (ranged fire killed the other, despite the -3 to hit in a house). O yeah, treekin are tougher than my trolls too, and dont suffer from stupidity.

Sigh. My poor goblin army was facing utter anhiliation by utter cheese. I think I killed 3 models that entire game and faced losing 90% of mine. Sure luck was part of it, but the special rules, high toughness and multitude of armour/ward saves made nearly every fight a losing one.

For those that may be interested;

gob warboss on wolf
n.gob bsb
2 n.gob shamans
3x 30 n.gob spears/2 fanatics each
2x 10 spider riders
3x river trolls
1x giant
1x pump wagon (allowed by opponent, just for fun)
5x hoppers
2x squig herds(1 unit)

I guess im posting this to see if the majority agree that WE are pure cheese, and that goblins are likely an uphill battle anyways, but any tips on beating these pointy eared bastards are helpful too.

Chicago Slim
18-03-2007, 06:57
You desperately need to learn how to play "baiting" tactics: 35% of his army is tied up in TWO models, with a Mv 5 each. If you can feed 10% of your army to those two models over the course of the game, it'll leave you with a huge advantage. Given the list you've posted, I'd say that you're unlikely to have any real hope of killing either of his treemen, so focus instead on limiting their effect, while punching his soft squishy dryads, glade guard, wardancers and archers, repeatedly in the eye.

What you're mostly bringing is 3 units with lots of static CR, with 4 units to flank, and a bunch of stuff that won't do much (a tiny unit of squig herd, 5 hoppers, 1 pump wagon) unless it can pile onto something that another unit is doing. That's a lot of units, none of them worth many points. So, decide on two units that will spend the game leading aroung the Treekin, commit them to that role, and see what happens.

You're right about his Treekin being better than your trolls (even with them being River trolls)--- that's exactly why he pays nearly half again as many points for them (Tree Kin are 65 points per model, +20 for a champion).

Von Wibble
18-03-2007, 11:03
Against wood elves the common goblin with light armour and shield is the best model. 25 of them will beat dryads every time, since you armour protects you so much and the dryads can't kill enough to overcome the +5 cr. And the goblins are cheaper. And the treeman ancient/ treeman will also lose out to such tactics unless supported.

With 5 of these units you have the basis of a nasty army against the elves. For 450pts (ish?)

How on earth your squig hoppers couldn't beat dryads is a mystery to me. They hit harder and strike first.

The Doom Diver is nasty. Since I believe it inflicts d6 hits instead of a template it is perfect against skirmishers.

Giants beat treemen 1 on 1. They strike first in every round (unless the treeman charged - but then he won't get you in 1 round anyway). Then you inflict either an auto break check, or 2d6 wound on him. And the treeman costs more.

Treesinging can only kill a wizard if you put him in a wood. Not the wisest of decisions. Put him on 1 of the aforementioned infantry blocks.

At the end of the day I think you are calling the wood elf list cheesy simply because it requires a different playing style to beat - one that you need to develop. They really have nothing on dwarfs or brets in this department.

Franco
18-03-2007, 11:44
Check out the WH web and go on WE and go on Against Wood Elves. I am a WE man and used to be O&G. I couldnt see just goblins beating forest spirits, but they might. He might try to bait you but you have to do it to him. On the WE page there are baiting tactics, so read them and pretend they are your men!!!

EvC
18-03-2007, 15:12
Try hard to get those magic missiles off against his Tree Spirits as it will negate the annoying Ward Save. Also make sure to give your fighting characters magic weapons for the same reason, even if it's only a sword of striking or something minor like that.

It's a very hard army to fight against if you don't know what to expect going into the game- so often players lose to Wood Elves because they are almost literally ambushed by the multitude of special rules.

Talonz
18-03-2007, 17:16
You desperately need to learn how to play "baiting" tactics:

Thats one tactic I suppose. One Im averse to because I actually like to fight, and given my goblins leadership, is also a risky one as the units may just continue fleeing right off the board.


Given the list you've posted, I'd say that you're unlikely to have any real hope of killing either of his treemen, so focus instead on limiting their effect, while punching his soft squishy dryads, glade guard, wardancers and archers, repeatedly in the eye.

I did kill one with my giant, and nearly killed the other with fanatics. But for his 'only hit on 6s in a challenge' spite, I think my general stood a very good chance of killing him when he had 2 wounds left (ulags akrit axe and eds ed kickin boots).

The guard/archers stayed well away from hth, and although I beat the dyrads on the charge the dryads and dancers ended up crumbling my right flank though no fault of my own. I just couldnt hurt them enough (or at all, in the dancers case).



You're right about his Treekin being better than your trolls (even with them being River trolls)--- that's exactly why he pays nearly half again as many points for them (Tree Kin are 65 points per model, +20 for a champion).

They get champions???? gross. Keep in mind thats only 5 points more than river trolls, they're 60pts a piece. Regular trolls may be a better buy Im starting to think.

Talonz
18-03-2007, 17:41
How on earth your squig hoppers couldn't beat dryads is a mystery to me. They hit harder and strike first.

I think dryads have 5 init to their 3? Will have to check. Basically only got 2 into the combat with speargobbos taking up most of the frontage, failed to wound in the charge and then got chopped up in susequent rounds.


Treesinging can only kill a wizard if you put him in a wood. Not the wisest of decisions. Put him on 1 of the aforementioned infantry blocks.

I had no idea he was going to have 8(!) attempts. With the sneaky staff, a scroll and more dice than him (I thought) I figured it was worth getting some missile coverage. Putting shamans inside units is risky as they're stuck once the unit is in combat and if animosity hits the unit I cant use them in the magic phase.


At the end of the day I think you are calling the wood elf list cheesy simply because it requires a different playing style to beat - one that you need to develop. They really have nothing on dwarfs or brets in this department.

Nope. Im calling them cheesy because they are ridiculouslly full of special rules (overall) and excess Toughness and saves (for spirits). As for adapting my style, this is what this thread is for. Ergo, how would you beat them with gobbos?

damiengore
18-03-2007, 17:52
Spear chukkahs and common trolls would be better than river trolls. What did your spider riders do? Giving your heroes spiders and making your spider rider units more hitty would give you more flexibilty to hit the weaker elf units.

Definetly get some spear chukkahs, 35 points is cheep cheep anti tree kin firepower!

Talonz
18-03-2007, 18:02
I really wanted to avoid artillery with this army, as my main army is empire, but I am about to recant that thinking. I do have some unused special slots and the spear chukkas are too good and cheap to ignore. Trying to find used ones is the ticket.

My spiders on my left fought amongst themselves and once they moved foward into a flanking position, fled off the table due to a missile fire panic test. The other riders got a charge off against the dancers, who took the 'strike first' dance and killed my front line and ran them down when they broke. They make great flankers and *can* occasionally rout other units (game before ran down and killed the waywatchers turn 1) and I took the chance against the dancers, hoping to at least tie them up if the pump wagon didnt also reach them that turn (which it didn't). I cant afford to put heroes in them. My general and bsb go in the centre of my army, and my shamans help control magic and hopefully give me the brilliant 'hand of gork' which wins games for me.

explorator
18-03-2007, 23:10
I recently witnessed an all gobbo army (without fanatics) vs. an all Forest Spirit army. The gobbo player had several large units of Night Goblins one of which had 60 or 70 of the little buggers and the General. I watched that huge unit of Night Goblins fend off charges from a Treeman, and three units of Dryads (one in front, one in the flank, and one in the rear) over 3 game turns. The Night Goblins held there own. Before the game ended the Treeman and 2 units of Dryads turn tail and ran. The game resulted in a draw.

dominic_carrillo
18-03-2007, 23:16
fire magic!!!

Lord_Byron
19-03-2007, 02:34
Dryads are initiative 6.

The wood elves primary weakness is stepping up to static combat resolution. Unfortunately, the wood elf can simply treesing a forest in front of any such unit you bring, completely negating that weakness. Wood elves can get out a whole heck of alot of treesingings off in one turn, you are unlikely to be able to stop all of them.

Fortunately for you, the wood elf is bringing the treeman ancient, which actually gives you a chance of taking advantage of their second biggest weakness. Magic. Heavy magic can take out all types of tree spirits, and the big and little waaagh! spells are full of blasters. This ploy will probably only work once or twice, and then your opponent will end up bringing an archmage with the wand of wytch elm and two regular treeman. If he does this your entire magic phase will be totally shut down, completely negating the wood elves second largest weakness.

There really isn't anything you can do about this sort of build, except to play games less than 2k points, cutting both the wand of wytch elm and the treeman ancient out of the game. Do that, bring some orcs to bolster your goblins, and you'll stand half a chance.

I've gotten good against this wood elf build with my own orcs and goblins, and consider myself lucky to get a draw or minor victory. My ogres don't stand a chance in hell.
The only time I've scored higher than a minor victory against the magehammer tree spirit army was with a proxy high elf force with 4 seers, 3 choosing fire and one high magic, the ring of corin, 4 repeater bolt throwers and 4 units of silverhelms. Used Vauls unmaking and the ring of corin to break the wand of wytch elm, then proceeded to burn everything on the table to ash, then for good measure pound the ash into dust under my horses hooves. Got a massacre this time... but I digress.

Wood elves are broken and can be very frustrating to play against.

tyrion11482
19-03-2007, 05:54
the trick here is haveing a lot of mobility take that away from him by moving faster and avoiding tarpits like treemen

Iziuth
19-03-2007, 07:54
I think it would be best if you removed the squigs, and added another unit of wofriders. Also take a couple of chariots and spearchukka's. this will go along way to hurting hi units. remeber he only has around 50 models while you can have a lot more. use the spider riders and wolfriders to hunt down the gladeguard. And as tyrion11482 said you can avoid the treemen if you want to.
All in all it comes down to maximizing your strengths and minimizing your own weaknesses.

SkawtheFalconer
19-03-2007, 10:05
Remember that dryads don't get their save against magical attacks. If you can take a few down from shooting or magic or even in throwaway combats you can really limit the units capabilities - they are going to need the majority of their units intact to beat you. As with a lot of things in the Woody army, if you hit them first then you'll probably win - but, as they've got higher movement and initiative than you, I can see that being a problem. Similarly, they've got better WS and S values - that won't help. Over protracted combats, I'd still give the edge to the Gobbos, if only because of their rans and standard. But yeah - that sounds like a very tricky situation for the gobbo player.

Chicago Slim
19-03-2007, 11:48
As someone who plays both WE and OG, with a lot of build flexibility (I have over 5000 points of each), here's my advice:

Pull your giant back into a reserve role: he's going to be a Treeman/Treekin hunter. Mostly because there's little else of any value for him to do... On the plus side, he moves faster than his targets, so he should be able to find them and maybe the dice will back you up and cause some grevious damage to his big guys.

Take the advice about trading the squigs (herd and hoppers) for bolt throwers. Focus your shots on his treemen and treekin.

Don't rush in with your spider riders: in fact, once you have 4 spear chukkas, don't rush in with ANYTHING-- make him come to you. Use the spider riders, the giant and the trolls to cover your flanks, and force him to commit to you-- also remember that his dryads and wardancers don't negate rank bonuses if they flank you-- so go ahead and let them through, if you have to. He has NO static CR. You have 5 points up on him in any front-to-front combat, so make the front-to-front combat happens. You might even consider putting your bolt throwers up in front of your gobbo units: let him smash the machines, and then charge him, break him and run him down.

Von Wibble
19-03-2007, 17:26
I think dryads have 5 init to their 3? Will have to check. Basically only got 2 into the combat with speargobbos taking up most of the frontage, failed to wound in the charge and then got chopped up in susequent rounds.

But you should be maximising squig S5 attacks - no need to throw the goblins in. By strike first I meant they are usually faster so they charge. You inflict more wounds, and have higher US, so wni the combat by at least 2 - break check at Ld 6 and the jobs done.

I had no idea he was going to have 8(!) attempts. With the sneaky staff, a scroll and more dice than him (I thought) I figured it was worth getting some missile coverage. Putting shamans inside units is risky as they're stuck once the unit is in combat and if animosity hits the unit I cant use them in the magic phase.

Which is why you have several small units - just switch around if he tries anything aimed towards a shaman.

Nope. Im calling them cheesy because they are ridiculouslly full of special rules (overall) and excess Toughness and saves (for spirits). As for adapting my style, this is what this thread is for. Ergo, how would you beat them with gobbos?

I've already listed plenty of stuff in the bits you didn't quote. Several units of 25 goblins, giant, wolf/ spider riders, doom diver, great shaman, kamikaze Sguig Herds. And those saves don't help against magic - use that. Trolls aren't a good choice. Simply put it looks like you didn't know the special rules (or existence of calaingor's stave) and that caused you trouble. Learn their rules! Don't be surprised if Wardancers slaughter all before them, or that Treemen can shoot - its not like you'd call empire cheesy just because they can swap stats in challenges and wipe out your rank bonus...

Parka boy
19-03-2007, 18:04
I think goblin armies need bolt throwers 4 bolts for a couple of turns should make the treeman easier to take down.

Why don't you have any chariots in your list with a charge of 18 they are pretty useful things to have around.

sephiroth87
20-03-2007, 15:33
Giants kill Treemen dead. In most cases, you're doing 2D6 WOUNDS a turn. Bolt throwers won't do anything to treemen and they won't be effective without ranks to go through. Take a Giant or two and use them to countercharge or go after the treemen or the treekin. Goblins don't have enough high toughness stuff to take out the treekin, but even a ranked goblin unit can beat treemen. Ranks, flanks, standard, and outnumber usually let you win combat and hold for a turn while the Giant charges in on the next. The problem is getting past the treekin and the skirmish units, which is tough. A good solution I've found is chariots. Protect them by hiding them, but slam a couple into the wardancers and dryads and you'll pound them. You can usually get the charge, even with the 14'' movement of the boar chariots.

I have done this time and time again, and it works.

Lord_Byron
20-03-2007, 16:31
Actually, in my experience, treemen have a very easy time of dancing around to the side of any threatening giants and pasting them with strangleroot. 2 to 10 str 4 autohits that never misfire and don't require line of sight are nasty.

Also, if you're close enough to threaten a treeman, you're close enough to be targeted by 20 glade guard hitting on a 2+ and wounding on a 5+. Those glade guard bows are nasty at below half range.

A giant wont last long under those conditions. The tree spirit ward save can also stop those 2d6 wounds with one roll can't they? I think the spear chukkas are the better option.

It just occurred to me that the Spider Banner in a big unit of night gobbo archers might add some valuable punch to a spear chukka heavy list designed to fight the woodies.

This is my second* biggest problem with woodies. The wood elf list you described has a good chance of taking all comers, while most other armies have to tool up specifically against wood elves to stand half a chance against them.

*my biggest problem with them is multiple tree singing spells affecting a single forest repeatedly in the same turn. I've seen a forest cross the table in just one turn, moving faster than a flying piece.

Von Wibble
21-03-2007, 19:30
[QUOTE=Lord_Byron;1400651]Actually, in my experience, treemen have a very easy time of dancing around to the side of any threatening giants and pasting them with strangleroot. 2 to 10 str 4 autohits that never misfire and don't require line of sight are nasty.

Since you refer to no misfires its 0-10 hits. And the ward save is 5+ - same as the odds of a black coach avoiding a cannonball. Yet cannon tend to be dreaded by the thing.

EvC
21-03-2007, 23:02
Also, if you're close enough to threaten a treeman, you're close enough to be targeted by 20 glade guard hitting on a 2+ and wounding on a 5+. Those glade guard bows are nasty at below half range.

Very true; that happened to me last night, with just 10 Glade Guard rolling enough 6's to kill my Giant in two turns!

On the plus side he fell and crushed some nearby Waywatchers :)

Lord_Byron
22-03-2007, 04:28
[QUOTE=Lord_Byron;1400651]Actually, in my experience, treemen have a very easy time of dancing around to the side of any threatening giants and pasting them with strangleroot. 2 to 10 str 4 autohits that never misfire and don't require line of sight are nasty.

Since you refer to no misfires its 0-10 hits. And the ward save is 5+ - same as the odds of a black coach avoiding a cannonball. Yet cannon tend to be dreaded by the thing.

Whoops, you got me there Wibble. It is 0-10 hits. That still doesn't make me feel any better about how powerful the treeman's strangleroot ability is. If it either misfired OR needed line of sight- I wouldn't have any problem with it.

About my comment on the ward save. I only made it to illustrate the fact that if a giant succeeds in a one in a million chance to charge the treeman, the treeman has a one in three chance of completely negating all damage it takes. I'm just saying...

P.S. Please show me a chariot that doesn't dread cannons. 2d6 wounds is very impressive I admit. Autokill is a whole different world of terror.

sephiroth87
22-03-2007, 18:08
[QUOTE=Von Wibble;1404125]

Whoops, you got me there Wibble. It is 0-10 hits. That still doesn't make me feel any better about how powerful the treeman's strangleroot ability is. If it either misfired OR needed line of sight- I wouldn't have any problem with it.

About my comment on the ward save. I only made it to illustrate the fact that if a giant succeeds in a one in a million chance to charge the treeman, the treeman has a one in three chance of completely negating all damage it takes. I'm just saying...

P.S. Please show me a chariot that doesn't dread cannons. 2d6 wounds is very impressive I admit. Autokill is a whole different world of terror.

I suspect it's a little better than a one in a million chance. And if a treeman is betting on taking down a giant with strangleroot, he's going to get charged the next turn. One average roll has meant dead treeman in many of my games because a strangleroot spell has trouble wounding the giant with it. If both treemen get in there and strangleroot, it's likely. But if he's running both treemen together, you can tie one of them up and likely kill him with a ranked goblin or orc unit. Ranks, standard, outnumber, and musician are usually enough to make him take a leadership test, and if not, he's still held for a turn. If nothing else, take two giants...

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 18:16
the lore of fire, right? theyre made of wood so... flammable?

Makarion
22-03-2007, 18:50
O&G have no access to the 8 lores, other than by somehow smuggling in a DoW wizard. I don't think they can, but there may be a loophole. Fire, otherwise, would be the obvious answer (Light and Metal are also options, and for a lvl 2 I would prefer Light myself).

superduperkoopatrooper
22-03-2007, 22:02
All lore of fire spells are strength 4... 6s to wound treemen then he gets a 4+ armour save = you'd need 36 hits from fireballs to kill a treeman even with the flammable rule. I think you'll agree that's asking a lot from your wizards...

In my experience static combat res is the only reliable way to deal with them. I can't see how you'd go about actually removing all 6 wounds without great cannons, runic dwarf machines or pouring hundreds of points into some almighty combined effort.

Von Wibble
25-03-2007, 11:12
Static CR is exactly the way to kill a treeman. With only 5 attacks, hitting on 3s the treeman unless very lucky will lose every round of combat against a unit of 25-30 goblins. Even with stubborn it doesn't take that long for the treeman to fail its break check (3 rounds if its quite lucky). Of course you can use an army standard to help this out. But the thread title is "forest spirit" armies so that isn't an option.

DesolationAngel
25-03-2007, 12:01
It could be worse, try taking a balanced beasts of chaos list against a all tree-spirit army, typically one chance to take down the ancient, they will nearly always get the charge on and are better in combat, not to mention all causing fear. Pretty much pointless match-up but ive done it 3 times against the same player so far.

The nasty combination is a ancient and treeman with a battle standard behind them, backed up by a scroll caddy.

Some match ups are like that though, Wood Elves can handle most things, whereas beasts and gobilns often can't unless if you gear it towards the army.

Generally magic is a good bet, try and use a dice per tree singing spell to stop it.
Don't put units.characters into woods
Play defensivily, take magic and shooting
Trolls could be a good idea
Big Ranked units with a hero (with a decent save and a magic weapon) can help, although they will often get out manouvered and mobbed by dryads.
If you have a 3 wound character with a 1+ save in a big unit, challenge the ancient and hope that the combat resolution holds him off.
Can you go magic heavy with 3 lv2 shamans and other kit?

I would say though that I wouldn't expect spider riders or wolf riders to do too much to dyrads not even considering fear tests, boar boyz or even better savage orc boar boyz maybe.

Be grateful that some of the army isn't tree spirits and that he let his ancient even get hit by fanatics as he should have moved in a wood up to the unit and wasted them

ScreamingDoombull
28-03-2007, 00:47
I'm just starting an O&G army, but the bolt thrower, magic advice seems sound. Perhaps bring several large units (30ish sounds good) and turtle up like the dwarfs. Form a semi-circle of blocks of gobos close enough to use the generals ld and set spider/wolf riders on the flanks to wipe away anyone that tries to charge in. If they don't come at you, pelt them with bolts, magic and perhaps arrows? Your opponent doesn't seem to have too many points tied into shooty elves, so if you can kill the Treemen/kin with firepower, and run off the dryads in hth, he probably won't have enough points invested in his actual elves to make up the difference.

Stormbrow II
28-03-2007, 01:08
Magic.

I'm not too sure about Greenskin magic and if any of them are fire spells (none if memory serves) but that's what has helped me maul tree**** armies in the past. Lore of Metal is more useful for taking out the big guys than Lore of Fire funnily enough and Pit of Shades is *the* spell for scaring the life out of Treemen. Granted its casted on a 12 and is randomly generated but its the most reliable thing I've found that allows me to avoid combat (God bless Seer).

Most of the time I go for Dryads - they are the lynchpin of the Woody army (Treespirit or no) and as they are such a dangerous support unit are my first priority. When they're gone I tend not to worry about being flanked charged by half as much for some reason...

Chicago Slim
28-03-2007, 11:44
This is my second* biggest problem with woodies. The wood elf list you described has a good chance of taking all comers, while most other armies have to tool up specifically against wood elves to stand half a chance against them.

*my biggest problem with them is multiple tree singing spells affecting a single forest repeatedly in the same turn. I've seen a forest cross the table in just one turn, moving faster than a flying piece.

Byron, the Wood Elves are hardly the only army list capable of building reliable "take-all-comers" armies. If they were, then they'd dominate the tournament curcuit, but that's not what we see happening (in a major independant local tourney last year, they highest-ranked Wood Elf general took 15th place, behind two Brets, three greenskins, lizzies, ogres, and a bunch of different sorts of Chaos).

As for the treesinging, well, it's a nasty bit, certainly. On the other hand, it's entirely dependant on Caliagor's Staff: without that, the absolutely max you could pull off is 6 attempts (ancient, ancient, treeman, mage1, mage2, mage3), for a max of 24" (rolling 3 on the d3, all 6 times, is nearly 1000-to-1 against), and a mean of 18". Mind you, three of those casts are bound spells at Power Level 3. THREE!!! You are guaranteed at least two dispel dice, and you can absolutely see the Treemen standing over there, so, um... okay, maybe you rolled low, all three of those dispel attempts.

Even with Caliagor's Staff, that ****** of a mage will case Tree Singing at most 4 times on a typical turn, because he only gets access to 4 dice (2 for himself, 2 from the pool), and if he goes that way with it, he's only 50-50 to get each one off. So, count on the Caliagor's Staff guy to successfully cast twice, for 6-10", count on one of the three bound spells to go off and sigh heavily at the other two mages: a total of 5 successful castings, for 5d3+7".
That's 12-22", average 17", which is sure a lot, but this also assumes you brought NO antimagic, and that he's brought everything he can to max out his treesinging.

Now, recall that Tree Singing has a range of 18", so once the woods get too far from the mages, he's done...


Now, recall that Tree Singing can't push a wood into anything that doesn't want it there: use terrain and screening troops to keep his trees out of your field of fire.

Let me reiterate that last point: You can set up a screen, using anything from a single troll to a single character on foot to a unit of wolf riders, to block his trees. Run your flankers a bit ahead of your main unit, and he can't park trees in front of your main unit. Period. End of discussion.

You can also set up terrain before the battle, to make it difficult for him to tree-sing into your path.

Better still, you can stack those two plans together: use terrain AND screens!