PDA

View Full Version : Cavalry-Heavy Chaos?



Black Behemoth
18-03-2007, 18:09
Could this idea work? It would consist of two blocks of 20 Marauders for a base, with lots of Knights, Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds, Chariots, and faster Daemons. The only problem would be that it would have a relatively low model count, as Knights are pretty expensive.

I do not know what mark would be good. Khorne would give them a huge punch, but also makes them untactical and can be countered easily through use of tactics. Slaanesh makes them immune to psychology, which seems good, and is cheap, but gives them no combat benefit. Nurgle is expensive and just causes fear, which my daemons would do anyway, and Tzeentch is just not good for cavalry. This leaves Khorne and Slaanesh.

Aside from marks, could the idea work? Bretonnian armies seem to work pretty well. And with some ranged support of a Hellcannon, could a cavalry-heavy force work?

Talonz
18-03-2007, 18:12
Chaos knights are HARD. So yes, it could work. It could also fail miserably. the trick is, how does your army counter common anti-knight tactics like missile fire, artillery, fanatics, magic, unbreakables, etc.? If you have counters (hounds, harpies, skirmisher screens, anti-magic etc.) for those counters, you're in business.

Black Behemoth
18-03-2007, 18:32
If I use Khorne, I will have all of the anti-magic I need with so many dispel dice. If not, a Slaaneshi sorcerer on horseback should work well.

I'll use Furies for anti-artillery (fly behind enemy lines and hunt), Flesh Hounds or Warhounds as screans, and a Hellcannon to disrupt ranked missile troops (make'em run and flee).

My only weakness would be Fanatics. I'll need something to stop them.

beastgod
18-03-2007, 19:37
warhounds.... against fanatics

RavenBloodwind
18-03-2007, 19:57
Cav heavy chaos is a very common (if disliked) army.

As to your chaos knights. The most painful experiences I've had against chaos have been against chosen Slaanesh knights with Rapturous standard. Those guys are absolute bastards. Khorne knights are very powerful, but also easily led around the board by their frenzied noses and put in compromising positions.

kruzkal
18-03-2007, 21:35
Have a look at this list (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74840) I designed for ideas. Use Warhounds to get your Knights into combat. Fast cavalries should prevent your Knights from being led around.

MarcoPollo
19-03-2007, 06:49
I think a fast chaos army is the way to go. From units like mounted demonettes and furries/screemer/fleshouhds, to marauder horsemen/dragon ogres/chaos knights/minotaurs. You have all the makings of a very fast and nasty force.

If you go alot chaos knights you might here cries of cheese. But to be honest, just one small unit of chosen knights hitting the right place is all you really need of these guys.

But you are correct that having a large marauder base (static combat res) is very important. If you have too many shock troops, then you are creating a situation where dice rolling for kills will win or loose you the game. Perhaps a beastherd would work well too keep up with your faster troops while still being able to lend support to your big marauder block(s).

kruzkal
19-03-2007, 11:20
If you have to wait for your blocks of slow Marauders, it defeats the point of having fast units in the first place. Khornate Knights + Banner of Rage in the center is what you need. They can effectively ignore CR. Other than that just make sure you have more fast units than your opponent such that you practically always get to flank (counter rank bonus).

Sashu
19-03-2007, 15:56
I know a few people who play fast chaos armies and they are pretty brutal. As a note anything slower than dogs is a waste. The will be left behind by the rest of the army and end up not mattering.

MarcoPollo
19-03-2007, 19:16
@krzkal and @Sashu

I can see your point on having a completely hard hitting army without marauders. It seems that you would want to have a good solid continuous line all the way across the battle field.

I agree only to a point. IMHO, having one marauder block helps as a late game hammer. A large 25 block of marauders can be just as intimidating as 5 chosen of khorne. It gives you a place to put your characters and can help in eliminating your opponents flanking manouvers (playing a refused flank). Beastherds are also excellent support, especially with some great weapon characters.

You will not always be able to out kill every army. Having the added variety of a marauder block will allow you to take on more types of armies more successfully.

Fast armies are great. I love to play that style. But, they can be fragile and elitist. Marauders are like your "role players". Someones got to do the dirty work.

kruzkal
19-03-2007, 20:10
Come on, you are not seriously comparing a unit of Marauders on foot to Chosen Knights of Khorne?

Marauders are great in their own right but bearing in mind we are talking about a cavalry-heavy army here, there is no contest. They cannot provide any of the said functions to the army when they are 18" behind the battle line.

Lord Dan
19-03-2007, 23:36
Yeah, a knight army only really works if the army consists of...well, knights.

I've never been a fan of Knights of Khorne. They hit hard but never seem to go where their general wants. Ever. Hounds are a wonderful way to temporarily prevent this, but when your army consists entirely of bloodthirsty knights it's only a matter of time before your meat shield dissapears and you're forced to charge, fail charge, and get countercharged by enemy S6 knights.

I would go undivided with multiple units of 5 knights with musicians, some fleshhounds, and maybe one or two units of 6 khornate knights for that extra punch.

MarcoPollo
20-03-2007, 01:59
I am in fact comparing knights to marauders ... in one way. That they each have their roles.

Looking at point values alone and marauders are worth it compared to chosen knights. 200 pts of marauders with la/hw/sh full command will get you 4 regular knights of khorne with a banner. You tell me who will perform better. The 4 regular knights will create 8 attacks at st 5 and 4 attacks at st 4. You do the math.

I not saying that Chosen knights are junk. Not at all! I have my uses for them. But an all cav army will be severly one dimensional and can easily be beaten.

The fast army is good. But it is better when it can handle more situations. Having a relatively cheap unit of marauders pulling up the rear is not a downgrade (as some people might think) but rather an investment in static CR and balance.

Hey, if you want to go all cav, by all means ... who am I to stop you...
But my advice and comparison stands. A little yin with the yang gives you more balance .

kruzkal
20-03-2007, 02:48
For 200 points, you can have 6 units of Warhounds, 2 units of Flesh Hounds, 2 units of Marauder Horsemen, or a combination of them to negate all the rank bonuses in the world. MUCH better than to wait for the 1 unit of Marauder to play catch up whilst the rest of your army suffers form CR that you are so concerned about.

The whole concept of a cavalry-heavy army is to specialise in out-manoeuvring your opponent. To cut the edge of manoeuvrability away from the list defeats the purpose being cavalry-heavy in the first place.

Lord Dan
20-03-2007, 03:00
You can only balance your army so much to deal with multiple situations. While marauders might be more durable in a combat, they're also more prone to running, move more slowly, and perform more poorly in hand-to-hand. Thus, they're less likely to make up their points. Also the point comparison isn't entirely fair. Most people don't have their chosen knights running around in units of 4. They're taken in units of 5-6 with some kind of character leading them. Thus they usually have 10-13 S5 attacks aside from their horses.

I just fear that trying to cover all of your bases will ultimately detract points from the units of knights you need to make a knight army have any chance of working.

MarcoPollo
20-03-2007, 03:50
Could this idea work? It would consist of two blocks of 20 Marauders for a base, with lots of Knights, Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds, Chariots, and faster Daemons. The only problem would be that it would have a relatively low model count, as Knights are pretty expensive.

I do not know what mark would be good. Khorne would give them a huge punch, but also makes them untactical and can be countered easily through use of tactics. Slaanesh makes them immune to psychology, which seems good, and is cheap, but gives them no combat benefit. Nurgle is expensive and just causes fear, which my daemons would do anyway, and Tzeentch is just not good for cavalry. This leaves Khorne and Slaanesh.

Aside from marks, could the idea work? Bretonnian armies seem to work pretty well. And with some ranged support of a Hellcannon, could a cavalry-heavy force work?

This was the original question folks.

Marauders would be a fine addition. We haven't even discussed the Hellcannon.

Personally, the hellcannon is not needed with this type of army. Hopefully you are in the opponents zone by turn two or three. This can create a chance that your expensive elites take some "friendly fire". So what do you do with a 265+ pt cannon that can just as easily maul your units as the enemies for half a game. There is some controversy as to whether the hellcannon can move 6" like dwarves who always march or just 3" due to it being a war machine (exceptions to the rampage of course).

I think the hellcannon is better in a ranged chaos army like tzeetch. Have your opponents come to you. And then maybe some chaos wariors would do well after his units are a little more softer.

Chris_Tzeentch
20-03-2007, 12:15
Instead of using Chaos Marauders in blocks, take block units of chaos hounds, possibly putting a mounted character in there for CC effectiveness. This gives you some ranks, outnumbering bonuses, pace for not a lot of points either.

kruzkal
20-03-2007, 14:23
Yes! You get twice the US for the same price with Warhounds. Considering you can buy command for the Knights anyway, they are a much better option with M7.

Briohmar
20-03-2007, 17:16
Come on, you are not seriously comparing a unit of Marauders on foot to Chosen Knights of Khorne?

Marauders are great in their own right but bearing in mind we are talking about a cavalry-heavy army here, there is no contest. They cannot provide any of the said functions to the army when they are 18" behind the battle line.

I beg to differ. I had 18 Marauders with great swords take down a treeman in my last tourney. In five games they survived three intact, and always gained back their points, which is more than I can say for the mounted daemonettes, marauder horse, or furies.

TheWarSmith
20-03-2007, 17:25
If you do this, I think Slaanesh is THE way to go.

You'll need warhounds to screen, and the fact that Slaanesh will ignore the panic that will eventually ensue is a key. Sure, khorne would too, but khorne is usually pretty 1 dimensional.

Slaanesh would allow you access to a very good magic lore. You could dominate the combat, magic, and movement phase of the game.

SlaaneshSlave
20-03-2007, 17:43
The most painful experiences I've had against chaos have been against chosen Slaanesh knights with Rapturous standard. Those guys are absolute bastards.
I am so proud. :D

TheWarSmith
20-03-2007, 17:46
They're BASTARDS for sure. They guarantee that they hit on a 3(but probably already would). If the rapturous standard isn't giving them the "hit on 3+ bonus), then it will make your opponent strike on 5+s.

Watch a unit hit swordmasters and watch the HE player cry when his guys are hitting on 4s and not going first.

Chris_Tzeentch
20-03-2007, 17:50
Khorne can throw out the attacks, but any opponent with any brain cells will drag them all over the table. Slaanesh is the way to go. Unless you want an airforce, then its Tzeentch.

SlaaneshSlave
23-03-2007, 21:43
Yes, the knights are great at killing. But, what I love about the slaaneshy knights with rapturous standard...

My horses hit on 3's & wound on 3's
You hit me on 5's, wound me on 4/5's, then I save on 2's...

Just
plain
wrong

Chris_Tzeentch
25-03-2007, 18:17
Mounted Deamonettes are a bit tasty too.