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Black Behemoth
18-03-2007, 18:11
I am relatively new to Fantasy, so I do not know much about all of the armies. I was just wondering if there are any Horse Archers in the game. If so, what are the called and what army are they in? I was just wondering because I have considered a Mongol-themed list after I complete my Chaos list.

Bretonnian Lord
18-03-2007, 18:41
The closest thing in fantasy to Mongol horse archers are probably the Ungol archers from the Kislevite allied supplement.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302152&orignav=301350&ParentID=250669&GameNav=300943

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/empire/gaming/kislevrules/default.htm

Note, however, that despite being made by GW, these are still unofficial rules. If you are looking for horse archers that are official, most fast cavalry in Warhammer have ranged weapons of some type, for example the High Elf Ellyrian Reavers have bows.

wildkarrde0
18-03-2007, 18:54
wood elves archer cavalry is very good glade riders are fast and good shots

wildkarrde0
18-03-2007, 18:54
oh thats was the 100th post i ment to make it bigger that that

Vattendroppe
18-03-2007, 18:57
I am relatively new to Fantasy, so I do not know much about all of the armies. I was just wondering if there are any Horse Archers in the game. If so, what are the called and what army are they in? I was just wondering because I have considered a Mongol-themed list after I complete my Chaos list.

Also DoW light cavalry could be used for this purpose.

RavenBloodwind
18-03-2007, 19:21
Many armies have access to their own light/archer cavalry. Almost all have access to DoW light cav which can fulfill the same role and most have access to Kislevite allied contingents: http://uk.games-workshop.com/empire/kislev/assets/kislev-book.pdf

But to be thorough:
Bretonnians get mounted yeomen who come with bow and spear and are fast cav if you don't give them armor

Dark Elves get dark riders which are fast cav and can have repeater x-bows as an upgrade

DoW obviously have DoW light cav which can be given bows

Empire have pistoliers and are the ideal ally for a Kislevite contingent as well

As mentioned earlier High elves have Ellyrian reavers who can swap their spears for bows and are fast cav

Orc and Goblin armies get goblin wolf riders with short bows and 18" march

Tomb kings get light cav with bows

Wood elves get glade riders (arguably the best archer cav in the game due to BS4, M9 and the wood elf special rule in which the don't take the -1 to hit for moving).

The armies which lack their own fast cav archers are:
Chaos, Chaos dwarfs, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Ogre kingdoms, Skaven and Vampire counts

Aside from the DE dark riders and WE glade riders, most of the good fast cav units are specials while the core choices (wolf riders and TK light cav) are pretty weak due to poor BS, short range weapons and the like.

memitchell747
19-03-2007, 04:06
Nice re-cap!

While technically not archers, Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes are hard-hitting and cheap. They also fit your existing chaos army.

Unless they have some powerful magic items, as do High Elf and Wood Elf archers, and some pretty decent BS's (as do High Elf and Wood Elf archers), or repeater x-bows, as do Dark Elves, I'm not at all convinced a shooting Fast Cav army is particularly viable. You pay too much for a limited number of S3 shots. The new Panic rules in V7 can be brutal. I really wanted to build a horde of Goblin Wolf riders. But, they don't shoot well enough to make a difference, and they just panic like crazy.

I love Light Cav, but only in a supporting roll. Since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, to be thorough:

Bretonnians. They can be March Blocked and misdirected by Lt. Cav, and this is how to beat Brets. But, Lt. Cav can not beat them alone.

Dark Elves. Can be beaten by Lt. Cav, and Heavy Cav, and infantry, and war machines, and grandmothers, and Lt. rain, etc...

DoW. Well, it just wont pay to attack them with just Lt. Cav.

Empire. Whatever. The one thing that cannot ever beat Empire is Lt. Cav.

High Elves. Their Lt. Cav archers can beat other Lt. Cav, but they cannot win games alone.

Orc and Goblin. I thought this was THE Mongol Lt. Cav army. Riding rings around an opponent's army whilst cutting him down with arrows seems like an awesome idea. But, for this to work in WFB, you need an 6'X6" or 8'X8' table, and the Mongol army would need 2-4 times as many points as the opponent, which would have to set up in the middle of the table. Yup, O&G can get tons of Lt. Cav units which wont move 1/6th of the time, will move when you don't want them to move 1/6th of the time, fear stupid elves, will panic if looked at funny, don't hit very hard, and tend to die every game. Still, very useful in an O&G army, but I can't get them to win a game on their own.

Tomb kings. The most un-useful Lt. Cav in the game. One unit of five is a good place to put a mounted Liche Priest. TK's could care less about your Lt. Cav.

Wood elves. Dunno. Nothing about WE’s surprises me anymore.

Chaos, Chaos dwarfs, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Ogre kingdoms, Skaven and Vampire counts. A Lt. Cav army is not going to beat any of these, except maybe Orgres. Can Ogres consistantly beat anything other than Dark Elves? Ironically, Ogres play like hard-hitting, slower, more expensive Lt. Cav. Panic checks are Ogre’s bane.

Someone prove me wrong. Please.

Vattendroppe
19-03-2007, 06:23
As he sais, an army cannot be made out of strictly LC. BUT, all cavalry lists works fine, with 4-5 5*1 units of LC with bows to bait and annoy the heck out of your opponenet (very often ppl seem to try and catch LC with infantry).

The only thing needed to that is some hard-hitting heavy cavalry, and one can make a pretty good list that is really fun to play (you can outmanouver your opponent anytime). The heavy cavalry isn't really mongol, I know, but I'm afraid that you'll have to get some if you would want to have a decent chanse to win...

lilljonas
19-03-2007, 11:49
Hey, waitaminute.... I can see the seed of my next army. How effective would a WE all-cavalry army be? Is it possible? I've never seen them in action or read the new army list, but a mongolian "counts as" WE army would indeed be mucho cool.

"Damn you mongorians! Every time us chinese build ****ty wall, you mongorians come break it down!"

Vattendroppe
19-03-2007, 13:17
Hey, waitaminute.... I can see the seed of my next army. How effective would a WE all-cavalry army be? Is it possible? I've never seen them in action or read the new army list, but a mongolian "counts as" WE army would indeed be mucho cool.[/I]

All cav WE. Hmm...

Propably not, the only hard-hitting unit they hav that is cav is their wild riders (IIRC it's the only cav they've got besides from glade riders and the wind riders). They're VERY expensive and don't hav much armour. It would certainly be mongols (just try to explain the ward save ;) ), but I don't think it's really good as a force. 26 pts on a cavalary unit that'll probably get blasted away by magic and shooting isn't really what one would want :/

lilljonas
19-03-2007, 15:14
Rats. Back to the samurai, then.

Noldo
19-03-2007, 15:44
The all-cavalry WE is not beyond viable, but it is not very easy army either.

WE have three types of cavalry:

Glade Riders, fast cavalry with nice shooting. Core and probably one of the best fast cavalries around (no penalty to shooting because of movement and fast cavalry do mix well)

Wild Rider, ItP medium cavalry. Fast cavalry but can hit quite hard (although only have spears but S4 and +1 attack when not charging), but armor is not on the level of heavy calvalry (light + mount), ward save mitigates that to some extend and MR(1) help against magic.

Warhawk Riders, flying, hit and run, very nice but expensive for their staying power.

So All-cavalry WE would play very differently from heavy cavalry armies (Brets, cavalry High Elves or Empire). Combined attack would be the key, using the fast cavalry rules (and ignore woods as WE) to move around enemy and strike with combined forces. Few armies can keep up with whole army that march and charge 18", can change formation freely during movement and ignores forests. If you can proxy models, I suggest you give them a try.

RavenBloodwind
19-03-2007, 16:53
Here's a discussion thread on wood elf 'all cav' lists:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73303

Benji550
20-03-2007, 22:01
Wood Elves, Kislev, or Brettonians

Makarion
21-03-2007, 01:08
Why are people overlooking the Empire outriders? I know they are move-or-shoot, but they are also fast cavalry with BS4, S4 armour piercing handguns that can shoot 3/ apiece (at -1 BS, of course). Together with pistoliers and the Kislevites, that's a lot of shooting.

Using this as the basis of a Mongol-style army leaves you with the problem of what to use as core, of course.


PS. The Mongols, as an empire, stretched across so many cultures during their circa 4 centuries of existence that it's tough to generalise a 'Mongol' style army. For instance, classical China as we know it was actually a Mongol tribe that invaded China, then civilised during the following generations. They moved the Chinese capital north to a small town we now know as Bejing. They still considered themselves Mongols, and contributed to the empire's expansion across Asia.

JonnyTHM
21-03-2007, 02:39
You could just do a DOW army. Light cavalry are core for them. I don't know how effective it'd be, but with the ungol models it'd work great.

Vattendroppe
21-03-2007, 06:02
Why are people overlooking the Empire outriders? I know they are move-or-shoot, but they are also fast cavalry with BS4, S4 armour piercing handguns that can shoot 3/ apiece (at -1 BS, of course). Together with pistoliers and the Kislevites, that's a lot of shooting.

But mongols never used gunpowder IIRC. Besides, if it was something the mongols were good at it is shooting while on the move, so pistoilers wouldn't fit in any way to do a mongolian army.

lilljonas
21-03-2007, 10:59
The mongols used gunpowder, they were indeed the first to use cannons on European soil. They brought the ideas to the arab world, that in turn brought it to Europe. They got the technology, like all of their siege technology, from the Chinese after conquering them. It was, however, only used for sieges through cannons. No horsies with pistols.

EDIT: this would be as Empire with Kislev allies. Are there working Kislev rules for 7th ed? I haven't checked this before. It would be ironic if my second new army would also be my second Empire army. D'oh!

I think the only way to do mongols is to use a late mongolian army, with lots of auxiliary troops (koreans, chinese, turks) as infantry and a core of mongol riders. The all archer mongol horde would probably not be as efficient in WHFB as in real life, party due to how panic and disorganization works (or doesn't work).

EDIT2: what also would be cool would be a Araby/Parthian themed DoW army.

Voltaire
22-03-2007, 18:19
If I was going to do anything remotely mobile and archery based I would probably do an all goblin list and use the Oglah Kahn as the basis for my Warboss.

Makarion
22-03-2007, 18:47
I'll admit to having a fondness for the idea of goblin wolf riders as a steppe tribe, and it would be very flavourfull to have a nomadic 'Mongol-style' army based around them. But sadly, shortbows don't deal well with armour, and they cannot withstand close combat too well, either.


Now, Parthians might be interesting. You'd want light horse archers, medium cavalry, unmounted archers (with or without light armour), some reliable infantry with acceptable armour... Parthians were known to be little special: composite bows, combined force operations and very good morale (but this might be attributed to them having had good local leaders, instead of the individuals being especially courageous).

I'm not sure on which army would foot that bill best, but Wood Elves are out (not enough ranked units and no medium cavalry), but High Elves might work. Even if their bows aren't really up to Parthian standards, they can at least shoot them well and far. With S3 shooting in WHFB being mostly ineffective, I am not sure there's much point, though.
Of course, Tomb Kings might be a novel approach. They always hit on a 5+ with their archery, and morale doesn't get much better than unbreakable. The magic would need some explaining though, history doesn't really gives us a lot of hints in that regard.

lilljonas
22-03-2007, 21:06
Parthians can be done with DoW, I think. But I agree that I don't see how you can make an all archer cavalry working in WHFB, a mixed army with an exaggerated dose of light cavalry could be passable, though. Like Parthians.

Sambojin
23-03-2007, 05:41
If you want a mongolian style horse horde you can't go past a wolf rider horde. In 6th edition these played very well (3x15 strong blocks and a swarm of fast cav archers backed by what ever auxillaries you wanted) but have had their sting blunted in 7th(bye-bye 55pt 3A 6St goblin heros). Try about 3x5-6 Savage Orc Boarboys(elites), 1x15 Wolfriders (armoured tribesman) and the rest of pump wagons and wolf rider spear/bows (fast cav and baggage train). Makes for a fun army. Still should have a fair few points left over to fill out as infantry auxillaries to show the "empire" side of the mongol hordes. Don't really rely on your bows, but its certainly annoying for your enemy to have 40+ shots being fired per turn (its just very ineffective).

Its probably about as mongolian as you can get in warhammer (many types of cav fulfilling many different roles). Either that or try out a DOW army with lots of light cav and some poorly armoured heavy cav with maybe some cannons and see how it goes.

elfstone
24-03-2007, 00:25
I fielded an almost all gobbo wolf army, i had one orc cart, two gobbo carts 4 sham, one gob warboss, all on wolfs (6 ed). most of my core units (6-7) were 5 strong wolfs with a musician. I had one 10 wolf strong med cav with full command. And a giant. By the end of the third turn I would have crippled the opponant or have my wolfs running off the table, mostly the later.