PDA

View Full Version : Eldar/Imperial Relations



El Presedente
19-03-2007, 01:16
Yeah, just wondering what the general stance of the Imperium as a whole and its individual componants feelings towards the Eldar actually is, at the moment I assume it goes:

Avrage Civillian: dont know they exist/filthy xenos
Rogue Trader:good for bartering as long as the Inquisition arnt around
Imperial Guard: filthy xenos/lingering doubts
Ordo Xenos: heresy/colaberiation when it comes to chaos or necrons
Ordo Mallus:colaberiation when it comes to chaos
Planetry Governers: political affiliations and negotiations

I ask because I'm planning on giving my IG a unit of exodites with imperial weapons as hardened vets, the idea being that the governer of the planet (which is a backwarter with little to no involvement with the Inquisition) agreed to give them asylum in exchange for military service. Is this logical within the setting do you think, or am I flogging a dead horse?

Also, could you find a human falling in love with an Eldar and vice versa? I could picture an inquisitor having respect for an Eldar of the opposite sex (or same sex) because he/she keeps being outwitted at the last moment, and after years of persuit has grown so attached to chasing the eldar that he/she has become devoted to him/her.

Or an Eldar and Human just become attracted to each other.

Or am I just letting my mind wander a bit?

Essia
19-03-2007, 03:37
You have to realise Eldars see human as we see apes/animals:
primitive, and inferior when compared to another eldar.

so the eldar leader must have really fallen into hardened times to seek refuge with a human planetary government.

as to Eldar/human love. affection perhaps, like affection for a pet. But sex I think would be highly unlikely.

Dark Eldars, well they're a whole different story.

Kyrolon
19-03-2007, 03:48
The only case I can see for an Eldar/Human romance would be an Eldar outcast. If they spent time living among humans and came to know them through several centuries as something more than a primitive then eventually maybe an interesting one would come along that would catch his/her eye. I can easily see a human falling for an Eldar since they (like the Elves they are based on) appeal to the human aesthetic sense.

While I may find it far fetched and unlikely, there is a part of me that has always been a sucker for the "fated pair" story of near immortal/human romance. Call me a sap.

As far as your idea for hardened veterans, I like it, though I would use outcasts (Rangers) instead of Exodites. Exodites are just as, if not more isolationist, than their craftworld cousins. I could see an enclave of outcasts learning how to use human weaponry (or use fusion guns like meltas) and aiding in the defense of the planet they have come to call home. Likewise, you could also use the stats for ratling snipers and call them ranger apprentices or something modeled on the ranger models.

Good luck with the project.

~Dan

Allarion
19-03-2007, 04:00
i like the ranger/outcase idea better than the exodite one too, it seems more believable

i mean eventually an eldar outcast is going to run out or eldar ammunition/supplies, so i can see them needed to resort to human weapons and armour

as for the love story thing, it can happen sure, there are thousands of planets with millions of people, really anything can happen

Ardathair
19-03-2007, 05:45
One of the Imperiums primary resources is man power. Why would a human leader agree to equip a group of xenos when he/she has a hunred or more humans available for every alien? The love story breaks down when you are trying to include squads vs. single models. Would a squad Eldar go to war just because the squad leader had the hots for a human?

Chilltouch
19-03-2007, 07:14
Eldar don't even really look on humans as anything other than pests and tools, to be used and to be destroyed when they have lost their former use. Creating such a relationship would be like having a loving relationship between a human and an ape.

Also, if there actually was one of the Eldar who actually grew to love a human, then it would be an outcast, even amongst outcasts. It would be constantly mocked and hated and perhaps even hunted.

As for exodites with Imperial weaponry, they would never degrade themselves to using such crude weaponry. It's like giving one of the SAS a stone spear for fighting. It's primitive, it's crude and their weapons are by far superior. Since the Exodites use laser-weaponry anyway, just give it lasgun/hellgun stats.

And to top it all of, any such high scale involvement with the Eldar as to include them in a planet's official armed forces would cause the Inquisition to come screaming down like a hammer from the Gods. And then the original governer is replaced with a far more loyal one and all of the Eldar are dead before you can say "Exterminatus".

N0-1_H3r3
19-03-2007, 08:42
And to top it all of, any such high scale involvement with the Eldar as to include them in a planet's official armed forces would cause the Inquisition to come screaming down like a hammer from the Gods. And then the original governer is replaced with a far more loyal one and all of the Eldar are dead before you can say "Exterminatus".
Or the Eldar have already left by that point, and were acting at the direction of a Farseer; that planetary governor, in three decades time, would have come under the influence of a Chaos cult, the actions of which would have started a chain of events that would cost thousands of Eldar lives and upset other plans already in motion.

If the Eldar can manipulate a situation to benefit themselves, they will do. When the individuals of a race live for thousands of years (we've never had a solid figure, but 'over a thousand before old age' is the nearest that I know of for most Eldar; Farseers and Exarchs, etc, tend to be functionally immortal), they take a long view of events - a small skirmish here, inciting a civil war there, an assassination somewhere else, and given a few centuries, a war or event that would have cost the Eldar a great deal simply never happens.


Avrage Civillian: dont know they exist/filthy xenos
Rogue Trader:good for bartering as long as the Inquisition arnt around
Imperial Guard: filthy xenos/lingering doubts
Ordo Xenos: heresy/colaberiation when it comes to chaos or necrons
Ordo Mallus:colaberiation when it comes to chaos
Planetry Governers: political affiliations and negotiations
Just as it varies from person to person, it varies amongst the various groups of the Eldar. The general approach is not one of allies, however, but one of adversaries who have a large number of common enemies. Eldar forces may sometimes come to the aid of Imperial ones against a common foe, then as suddenly turn on their erstwhile allies - the Eldar of Biel-Tan are notorious for it.


I ask because I'm planning on giving my IG a unit of exodites with imperial weapons as hardened vets, the idea being that the governer of the planet (which is a backwarter with little to no involvement with the Inquisition) agreed to give them asylum in exchange for military service. Is this logical within the setting do you think, or am I flogging a dead horse?
Some more mercenary Outcasts, maybe. Not Exodites. They're purposefully and deliberately insular and isolationist, and prefer not to leave their settled colony worlds at all.

Outcasts in particular are a good choice here - not only do they operate independently of the rest of their kind, but many Outcast groups (Rangers, some Corsair bands, etc) still demonstrate a loyalty to their home that means they'll act on behalf of their Craftworld's Seers from time to time... a band of mercenary Eldar turning up alongside an Imperial force, at the direction of a Seer on some distant Craftworld, is an entirely valid idea...


Also, could you find a human falling in love with an Eldar and vice versa? I could picture an inquisitor having respect for an Eldar of the opposite sex (or same sex) because he/she keeps being outwitted at the last moment, and after years of persuit has grown so attached to chasing the eldar that he/she has become devoted to him/her.
Doubtful. Eldar emotion is subtle, intense and complex, yes... but a human is still a human - slower, less intelligent, short-lived, with unpleasant odour and clumsy movements; an animal, to the perception of most Eldar. Attachment - the kind of fondness one reserves for a pet - is possible, but that would, IMO, be about it.

El Presedente
19-03-2007, 11:02
One of the Imperiums primary resources is man power. Why would a human leader agree to equip a group of xenos when he/she has a hunred or more humans available for every alien? The love story breaks down when you are trying to include squads vs. single models. Would a squad Eldar go to war just because the squad leader had the hots for a human?

Well the whole Love/Governer this was unconnected, that was just me killing two birds with one stone. The reason I justify the governers decision is based mainly around sympathy. Despite everything he's been told, he hadn't the heart to turn them over, Impossible? Imajain someone in the south protecting a slave during the american civil war, despite eveything they have been told they still feel sympathy.



And to top it all of, any such high scale involvement with the Eldar as to include them in a planet's official armed forces would cause the Inquisition to come screaming down like a hammer from the Gods. And then the original governer is replaced with a far more loyal one and all of the Eldar are dead before you can say "Exterminatus".

And it makes a good plot point for when I'm fighting my friends Witch Hunters

and on a side note:



It's like giving one of the SAS a stone spear for fighting. It's primitive, it's crude and their weapons are by far superior

SAS is about survival, not technology, if they had to fight with spears they would, I can't see one going 'I refuse to use this because I'm used to guns!'

Chilltouch
19-03-2007, 15:48
Thing is, psycho-conductive weaponry such as that which the Eldar and Exodites use can actually regenerate their ammo over time, even shuriken weapons can do this, I believe. The lasgun is similar in the fact that it replenishes its supply while in the sun, and it can be refuelled very fast by throwing it into a fire, although that severely decreases its lifespan.

So, if they are careful with their ammunition, they should be able to keep their weapons for good. Besides, Eldar are incredibly arrogant, some of them to such extents that it doesn't benefit them at all. Therefore, they would probably rather fight with blade than lasgun.

Basically, SAS wouldn't refuse spears if they had nothing else, but I can see at least one of them cringing and going "I can't believe I am doing this...". Same reaction from the Eldar.

El Presedente
19-03-2007, 16:46
Yeah, I can see what your getting at, but the idea I was getting at was 'desparate times call for desparate measures'. The hypothetical reason they've turned to the Imperium and agree to serve with their weapons is because their trying to get away from something much worse, not sure what it could be but that adds to the mystery. They'd rather serve lowly humans with primitive weapons than face, say, the C'tan Decivier, who'd infiltrated their ranks, as an example.

Luthien
19-03-2007, 16:55
if the eldar deemed it necessary to ally with a human world then it would because of very dire reasons indeed, like the dragon waking up or something i doubt eldar would persue anything more than a professional relationship with one of those brutish mon-keigh an eldar that did would probably be humiliated and exiled and i don't like to think about what would happen to the human if the inquisition ever found out but its an interesting idea

El Presedente
19-03-2007, 16:56
I can see it now, 'Heresy, the worst kind of venerial disease'.

N0-1_H3r3
19-03-2007, 19:32
if the eldar deemed it necessary to ally with a human world then it would because of very dire reasons indeed, like the dragon waking up or something
It happens all the time. Just not for very long. The motives of the Eldar are many, varied and deal with events that may not come to pass for centuries, even millennia.

Always an ulterior motive, there is.
Never simple, their reasons are.
For no good reason, typing like Yoda, I am.

Imagine this situation:

An Eldar Craftworld is currently drifting in a region of empty space, a few dozen light years away from an Imperial world. In eight hundred years time, an Ork Waaagh will rampage through the region, directly through where the Craftworld will be at that time. Shortly after that, a Slaanesh-worshipping Chaos Cult will reveal itself on that Imperial world, planning to bring their Daemonic patrons through into the material universe. In a neighbouring sector, the Imperium is losing a campaign against worlds that have rebelled from Imperial rule, some of which stretch across the region of space that the Ork Waaagh will intrude upon.

As all things stand, the Craftworld will be hit by an Ork Waaagh, and will be in no fit state to curb the works of She Who Thirsts when the cult reveals itself. However, the Farseers have seen all this in advance.

The Eldar approach, as I see it, would be as follows:

Side with the Imperial forces against those rebel worlds. Openly in some cases, subtly and quietly in others, foiling the efforts of the rebels at key moments. The Imperial forces gain momentum in the sector, and push onwards... but not too fast. About six hundred and fifty years later, the Imperium is waging a war on worlds that are suddenly set upon by a rampaging Ork Waaagh, entangling the Greenskins in the conflict, and delaying their movement through the region - saving the Craftworld from a needless and messy conflict, and allowing them time to intervene and combat the cult on the nearby world.

Easy. By aiding the Imperium directly, they allowed their own plans to continue without interruption.

Luthien
19-03-2007, 21:59
perhaps i should have chosen a different word instead of "ally" how about "Join" any better

El Presedente
19-03-2007, 22:59
That is a nice little narrative you have there N0-1_H3r3, although I'd have to change rebel worlds to Tau, and craftworld to maden world, to fit in with my armys fluff.

Looking back on the whole love thing, you say that to the eldar, humans are like dogs, however if a dog could communicate too us, it could convince us that it is more equal than we feel. Ditto, long exposier to humanity could see an Eldar experience human culture, art, music, literature, all of witch they never see because their on the other end of a loaded gun, but given time they could learn that we are not so barbaric after all. Throw in a bit of mutual phyiscal attraction and voila! Instant interracial romance. Of course I could be wrong in the case of an eldars feelings towards love and romance, but on the surface at the very least you could have an intimate friendship.

N0-1_H3r3
19-03-2007, 23:24
human culture,
A pale mockery of sixty-five million years of Eldar culture.

art
Limited, lacking in subtlety or nuance. Occasionally interesting, but generally inferior.

music
See 'art'. Essentially noise, only barely scratching the surface of the true notions of melodic composition. Lacking the psychosonic undertones that define the more sophisticated Eldar music.

literature
Like the crayon-scrawled sentences of a child when compared to the works of Shakespeare.


all of witch they never see because their on the other end of a loaded gun
They don't need to see it. Eldar art, music, literature and high culture is superior to that of humans in every way that the Eldar consider important.


but given time they could learn that we are not so barbaric after all.
It's all relative. One of the definitions of Barbarian is "A member of a people considered by those of another nation or group to have a primitive civilization."


Throw in a bit of mutual phyiscal attraction and voila! Instant interracial romance.
Interracial and inter-species are two very different things. Eldar are very different on a genetic level - for a start, they have quintuple-helix DNA, where humans make do with double-helix DNA...


Of course I could be wrong in the case of an eldars feelings towards love and romance, but on the surface at the very least you could have an intimate friendship.
This is the issue - Eldar don't experience emotion in the same way humans do. Anger by human standards, is like being slightly annoyed by Eldar standards. They experience a much wider range of emotions, much more intensely, than humans do. Except as a matter of bizarre curiosity (rarely indulged, IMO), humans aren't interesting enough, because they can't share in that emotional intensity. Eldar family bonds are close on a psychic level, so we can assume that their close personal relationships are far more intimate than the human comparison, simply by merit of sharing thoughts and emotions directly with those they're close to. Humans - with their comparatively limited psychic potential - can't compare.

That isn't to say that idle flirtations couldn't happen... but what a human might view and feel to be serious and long-lasting is nothing more than messing around for the Eldar - they're capable of so much more, and will live for so much longer that what a human can provide is essentially insignificant.

Champsguy
19-03-2007, 23:31
Eldar/Imperial relations will depend on the region of space, the specific planet, the specific Craftworld, and any nearby Imperial control. Honestly, I doubt the Inquisition even hears about 90% of human/alien contacts, and I bet they take action on less than that.

The Eldar are tricky. While they'd be a hell of a lot better than Orks or Chaos, they're still not a group you'd be particularly comfortable with. I'm sure some planets would have cordial relations with the Eldar. The problem is you never know if the Eldar are truly being nice or if they're planning on screwing you over. They're like the bitchy snotty girl in high school. Is she really being nice today, or is she plotting something?

Eldar could certainly use Imperial Weapons, but they'd feel about like a human would who was forced to use Ork weapons.

Champsguy
19-03-2007, 23:33
That isn't to say that idle flirtations couldn't happen... but what a human might view and feel to be serious and long-lasting is nothing more than messing around for the Eldar - they're capable of so much more, and will live for so much longer that what a human can provide is essentially insignificant.

Which means it's really going to suck when your Eldar ex-girlfriend starts stalking you.

El Presedente
19-03-2007, 23:39
point taken, although in the case of exordites and outcasts I could have some leway. Also using the Dark Eldar and the fall as a factor, the Eldar havn't experienced exess and selfishness for millenia, and everything they do is for survival of the whole, now, you could say that they fell such a sense of duty that they can hold in their darkest feelings, but then again, so many of them chose to become the dark eldar, so it must have a signifcant strain on them, and at times feel they want to let it all out, and if they were away from other eldar and only had human ears to release their burdens on, well, this could produce some sort of connection, though I could be wrong.

And then theres the whole 'interrogation' that awaits Farseer Taldeer after an Imperial Guard victory in DOW:DC, and I thought 'I bet Lucas Alexander would have a little interrogation in his private quarters first' but thats probably my filthy mind wandering.

N0-1_H3r3
19-03-2007, 23:48
point taken, although in the case of exordites and outcasts I could have some leway. Also using the Dark Eldar and the fall as a factor, the Eldar havn't experienced exess and selfishness for millenia, and everything they do is for survival of the whole, now, you could say that they fell such a sense of duty that they can hold in their darkest feelings, but then again, so many of them chose to become the dark eldar, so it must have a signifcant strain on them, and at times feel they want to let it all out, and if they were away from other eldar and only had human ears to release their burdens on, well, this could produce some sort of connection, though I could be wrong.
As far as I'm concerned, the battlefield is where the Eldar let loose the thrill-seeking and wild side of their nature - the part of them that became Slaanesh is still there, and the mayhem of battle is the only place where it can be unleashed properly. It means that the Eldar in battle are completely and utterly crazy - lacking in mercy or compassion, and entirely deadly because they're not holding back anything.

Ardathair
20-03-2007, 05:01
Eldar could certainly use Imperial Weapons, but they'd feel about like a human would who was forced to use Ork weapons.

I always thought of it more like a modern soldier, used to an M-16 or AK-47, being handed a bow and arrow or a muzzle loading musket.

@El Presedente.
Another approach would be, since craftworlds have been lost over the ages, the survivors from one lost craftworld settled on an Imperial planet, and have some reason for not trying to join another craftworld. This would explain why they are not using Eldar tech, their armories and factories were lost with the rest of the craftworld. Removing the craftworld would make the reliance on human tech more believable.

Chilltouch
20-03-2007, 07:14
Eldar have factories now? All you need is a single bonesinger and they could easily build a little wraithbone paradise on the planet. Also, the Eldar could be taught on the basics of how to construct a lasgun and due to the far superior craftmanship, elaborate on it. That would truly create a funky weapon.

El Presedente, that's just your filthy mind at work. The Imperial Guard originally came to the planet because of Taldeer, to get revenge on her due to her meddling on Lorn V. A proper relationship between a human and a member of the Eldar is severely unlikely, although it could actually happen, if the Eldar was isolated from its society and knew nothing of how everything not Eldar was lesser.

El Presedente
20-03-2007, 08:33
Heh, yeah sorry about that, just something I'd throw in you know. When it comes down to it, the eldar probably take a purely administrative stance when it comes to reproduction, like what Kevin imagains his parents having sex looks like in Kevin and Perry, as in they take no joy from it, or they don't want to enjoy it, because of Slannesh or whatever, but I'm sure they have something else in its place, some form of bonding, could be psykic, and the question being, could a human phyically bond with them, as opposed to mentally.

Orthodox
20-03-2007, 23:30
Mom smoked a cigarette, Dad licked Mom's hand, and that's how Alice was born.


Eldar have factories now? All you need is a single bonesinger and they could easily build a little wraithbone paradise on the planet. Also, the Eldar could be taught on the basics of how to construct a lasgun and due to the far superior craftmanship, elaborate on it. That would truly create a funky weapon.
Are they really so miraculous, are you saying that to people It is hard to be a bonesinger probably.

That's assuming they'd be so conspicuous. The eldar are obviously having some problems, that they're doing a deal with humans. If they're criminals or political radicals, they don't want to attract attention, and if their ship broke and they're stuck they obviously would fix it if they could. Whatever the reason, why isn't the governor coercing them to stay?


Heh, yeah sorry about that, just something I'd throw in you know. When it comes down to it, the eldar probably take a purely administrative stance when it comes to reproduction, like what Kevin imagains his parents having sex looks like in Kevin and Perry, as in they take no joy from it, or they don't want to enjoy it, because of Slannesh or whatever, but I'm sure they have something else in its place, some form of bonding, could be psykic, and the question being, could a human phyically bond with them, as opposed to mentally.

Do you care if it's asymmetric? The human might think it's one thing, and the eldar might think it's something else. The story there is obviously the eldar is in control, like initiates contact for maybe exploitative or other cynical reasons and then oh no inadvertent psychic attachment.

El Presedente
21-03-2007, 00:07
also, what is the Eldars stance towards food? Do they eat meat, or are they sappy vegataians? Or have they somehow transended the need to eat food.

And another point, if human culture is primative to the eldar, would it be possible for a human to apreciate their art and culture. Because I could see a lone catashan going 'seriously? that was music? none of you realised that there was just one tone for two hours?' and then the eldar would go 'you know... now that I think about it....'. Just kidding, the catashan would just put on some seventys rock ballads and break the Eldars ears.

Orthodox
21-03-2007, 01:03
The main food for eldar is dinosaurs. There's probably reference to other eldar agriculture, but the obvious thing is what exodites spend all their time raising for food.

Oh hey, catachans are uncultured anyway. class conscious please nqokd

Kymar
21-03-2007, 02:04
Quite a delightful topic, El Presidente, I'll take a stab at it.

Though I realize you raised both idea at once to save space, I think the Eldar-human romance and Imperial Guard-Eldar military can work together. Because of the drastic difference in life span, Eldar would have a very skewed view point towards humans. For an Craftworld outcast (Ranger) who is testing the boundaries of the Eldar Path, the opportunity to interfere with human society would be quite intoxicating. The heart of a Planetary Governor is just a toy to achieve an end.

"You don't love me Governor, your grandfather loved me. You've worshipped me in your dreams since you were a child. And your children will know my name before they can even speak. But for now I have my uses for you, you want to be useful don't you?"

Remember "She who thirsts" includes the ultimate personification of eldar seduction. A pious Eldar outcast who fights to contains these very urges will still express the behaviors, for it is part of their very nature.

Aside:


Eldar have factories now? All you need is a single bonesinger and they could easily build a little wraithbone paradise on the planet.[sic]

I agree with this idea, though I see Bonesingers as being the height of Eldar craftsmanship. Seeing the Eldar technology is based on psychically reactive plastics, every Eldar would at least understand the basics of manipulating these materials. Its not hard to envision a "simple" Eldar device that every Guardian & Ranger could use to replicated basic psycho-plastics materials from local elements, and such reproduce ammunition in the field. Boneseers are on the degree of control that would compare to me in this modern day creating jet fuel from water.

AngryAngel
21-03-2007, 05:43
For any who care to even read my opinion here it is.


I could see some, perhaps more open minded eldar giving human weapons and cooperation a chance. For their claims of amazingly advanced tech, they aren't much better then the old busted the humans keep pumping out. Imagine if humans had kept creating anew ?

As for the love aspect ?..It's difficult to imagine simply by racial bigotry on both sides. However, if there is one universal absolute. Its that very little is impossible. with the countless billions in the galaxy. You could imagine along the road one eldar, and one human could link up.

For really while Eldar view humans as so much less, thats mostly over generalized. If you break anyone down, you find not only what you expected, but often times much more. If they were as advanced as they claim, I'm sure they'd see it as well, given enough time.

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
21-03-2007, 06:11
Heres another one... is it possible for an eldar and human to reproduce? so you'll end up with a human kid with an uber long life-span.....
Or is the genetic make-up so different its impossible?:confused:

Chilltouch
21-03-2007, 06:36
NO NO NO NO.

They're completely different species.
They're from completely different planets.

You have more hope getting a child from a monkey-elephant relationship.

Although, I admit, half-Eldar would be reasonably cool. However, it's absolutely 100% impossible. No ifs or buts.

El Presedente
21-03-2007, 09:04
Yeah, I'd say a no-no for a hybrid child, if that happened it would ruin the alienness of the eldar.

Quite of few nice ideas bounceing around, I especially like the 'your granda loved me idea' and the whole Idea of there being so many in the galaxy, a love affair is bound to happen by chance, its the infinate monkeys infinte typwriter theory in motion.

N0-1_H3r3
21-03-2007, 18:45
also, what is the Eldars stance towards food? Do they eat meat, or are they sappy vegataians? Or have they somehow transended the need to eat food.
Omnivores - though the Eldar digestive system works differently to a human one (there are many Eldar foods and drinks that humans can't digest, due to a different set of digestive enzymes present in the Eldar digestive tract). However, the Eldar requirements for food, drink and sleep, when compared to humans, are very small indeed.

And, according to Xenology, their excrement is crystalline and odourless...


And another point, if human culture is primative to the eldar, would it be possible for a human to apreciate their art and culture.
Probably not - it's made for Eldar senses and Eldar sensibilities, and will thus include a wide range of elements that human senses and human emotions simply can't detect, let alone interpret. Your example of "a single tone for two hours" might be pretty close... from a human perspective, but an Eldar listener will be able to hear the subtle differences between the tones used - ones too faint for humans to detect.

Also consider that the Eldar have a much broader definition of art than humans do, which often overlaps with everything else they do (like warfare...)

El Presedente
21-03-2007, 19:09
And, according to Xenology, their excrement is crystalline and odourless...

"So that's why that rogue trader wouldn't tell me what the necklace was made out of!"

jfrazell
21-03-2007, 19:24
Do what you want, in a million worlds anything can happen. Further, only current fluff has the Imperium/Eldar so estranged (remembers fondly his imperials with eldar allies including farseer).

It may all be part of some farseer's plan to get the humans in that region onside to act as a bulwark against a future attack - from nids for instance.
Eldar plans are too byzantine for the likes of us Mon-Keigh. Better to just add them to the list and not ask why :)

El Presedente
21-03-2007, 19:31
(remembers fondly his imperials with eldar allies including farseer).

Yeah, in my opinion, theres no such thing as retcon, it was just erased from imperial records.

Rockerfella
21-03-2007, 21:19
For any who care to even read my opinion here it is.


I could see some, perhaps more open minded eldar giving human weapons and cooperation a chance. For their claims of amazingly advanced tech, they aren't much better then the old busted the humans keep pumping out. Imagine if humans had kept creating anew ?

Because on the tabletop an Eldar army would annihilate everything in sight if its capability matched that of the fluff.

In fluff, the eldar don't 'claim' as you put it to be 'amazingly' high tech. They are amazingly high tech whether you like it or not. Human engineering *as stated in the new eldar codex* cannot replicate Eldar technology.

Eldar technology is so far in advance of human tech in fluff terms that the mind simply boggles.

How do you translate that to the tabletop though? In all fairness, the necrons would whup everyones backsides if fluff tech equated to table top 'hardness'.

But, it doesnt. What would be the point in playing?

Cheers :)

Luthien
21-03-2007, 21:58
yeh and eldar would come a close second, but still if eldar had fluffy psychic powes someone like eldrad could obliterate a city in the blink of an eye :D take
THAT :p

AngryAngel
22-03-2007, 04:18
and if humans kept pumping out new stuff they'd be lowering the smack down on all of um. Simply because they have that one thing that always translates into victory, the human spirit.

No matter how much the eldar "claim" to be amazing. So much propaganda.

Rockerfella
22-03-2007, 07:41
Oh, sorry... is the 'human' spirit stronger or more 'kickass' than the 'Eldar spirit' or something?

How ridiculous.

Humans win most of the time (fluff wise at least) because thats the way GW wants it. GW wants to keep its fanbouys happy and so, as i've said before, panders to their 'needy childlike' desire to 'be the best'.

*Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

Cheers!!

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
22-03-2007, 07:59
Hear Hear!!! I agree with rockerfella
another reason why the 'umies might win is due to the unending numbers of men which can be conscripted into the imperial guard

Hellebore
22-03-2007, 08:18
If we follow the background for the functioning of a shuriken catapult, it should be an automatic assault railgun (you know, the one that the tau use).

I don't think humans could understand eldar art, because they simply cannot experience the emotion it is trying to elicit.

Think of it like this; there are many flowers that have markings on them in ultraviolet, used to attract insects, specifically bees. To us they are just a flower, because we don't have eyes capable of discerning that part of the spectrum - to a bee it is a big neon food sign.

Similarly, eldar paintings will attempt to elicit an emotional response, and one that a human may not be capable of feeling. Their art, like their language is 'complex', and does more than one thing (like the maiden at Rhidol in the winter moonlight etc).

Hellebore

El Presedente
22-03-2007, 10:29
It would probably be like me in the tate gallery in liverpool, going, 'I could draw a strait line on blank canvas but you don't see me being payed thousands for it'.

Also, I find it amusing that some of us are putting down our own species to a fictional one.

Hellebore
22-03-2007, 11:04
The thing is, that the eldar have quantifiably been 'measured' to be 'superior' to humanity - it doesn't matter in the slightest that we don't LIKE being inferior, the evidence declares it to be so.

This is the thing with all sci fi, the only common denomenator is humanity and its technosphere - any alien race is then constructed using much simpler parameters based on their similarity to US.

Are they capable of this, yes/no?
Do they possess superior blah, yes/no?

When they created the eldar they categorically stated that they lived longer, emoted over a wider range, experienced more, attained perfection when following a path, and generally are superior to humanity in all ways.

Just because we don't LIKE it doesn't preclude it from being so, that would be expecting dirt to taste better than chocolate just because we don't like it NOT tasting better.

Hellebore

El Presedente
22-03-2007, 14:32
Mmmm mmmMM, tastes like dirt!

I think to an extent though, that the Eldar see themseves as being better than they actually are, sure they are superior to humanity, but humanity is still capable of outsmarting them, but the eldar would wholehartedly disagree, I think they delude themselves just as much as the imperium does.

Hellebore
22-03-2007, 14:38
Sure humans can. The dumbest inbred yokel on the planet could outsmart Einstein in the right circumstances, but it doesn't mean Eienstein wasn't soopadoopa smart ;).

Arrogance can also bring the proudest low, because they underestimate the enemy (or over estimate their own ability).

Hellebore

Rockerfella
22-03-2007, 17:58
Eloquent as always HB.

I think in all fairness there are several reasons for the Eldar being the way they are. Firstly, they may seem arrogant to us. They once ruled an empire that made the IOM look like barnsley. They had everything they ever wanted, but they lost it all. When 95% of your civilisation goes *POOF* In an instant, its time to start thinking a little more.

Lets not forget just how arrogant the IOM is also. 'We're pure, aliens are scum, lets kill them all, the galaxy belongs to us, and they have no place in OUR realm or plain of existence, kill the Xeno filth' blah blah. Thats pretty arrogant too....:P

So, we need to remember this is all about perspective. Whether we like to admit it or not, the Eldar are far far ahead of us technologically in the 40k universe. They're superior.

I'm always reminded of the Vulcans in Star trek. Its a similar thing really.

i think.

Or something...

Cheers!!

Colonel_von_Reave
22-03-2007, 23:00
this topic sprong one little question in my head.

how the hell do eldar reproduce? i know a human and an eldar cannot have children, but how do eldar have children?

p.s. story about the eldar joing an IG army is great!! use it!! it will give you plenty of convertion options and is also very orginial. just do expect some IoM players to suddenly want to destroy your army (like i do :p well, if they didnt want to die, they shouldnt have come to Medusa V in the first place!! also fluffwise i dont know the difference between dark eldar and eldar :p)

N0-1_H3r3
22-03-2007, 23:41
how the hell do eldar reproduce? i know a human and an eldar cannot have children, but how do eldar have children?
The details aren't known, but we know from Xenology that the process is long and complex, quite different from the "fire and forget" method humans use...


if they didnt want to die, they shouldnt have come to Medusa V in the first place!!
There were Webway gates on Medusa V. That means the Eldar were there long before mankind arrived...


also fluffwise i dont know the difference between dark eldar and eldar :p)
There's a lot less of a difference than might be initially thought. Dark Eldar are, essentially, the Eldar who survived The Fall, but who were still on the homeworlds at the time; they escaped into the Webway, led by a youth assumed to be Asdrubael Vect, and settled in a broad crossroads or tunnel within the Webway. They live much as Eldar did in the days of The Fall - self-indulgence, hedonism, bloodthirsty politics, casual murder - but with the added and necessary twist of... they eat the souls of those they enslave. This is because the Dark Eldar, unlike Craftworld Eldar, lack soulstones and have no protection from She Who Thirsts (Slaanesh, as known to the Eldar), and thus have to consume the souls of others in order to prevent themselves from being devoured by the hungry Chaos God.

Those are the principle elements that distinguish Dark Eldar.

El Presedente
22-03-2007, 23:54
Lets not forget just how arrogant the IOM is also. 'We're pure, aliens are scum, lets kill them all, the galaxy belongs to us, and they have no place in OUR realm or plain of existence, kill the Xeno filth' blah blah. Thats pretty arrogant too....:P

Or... Is it. You know I was about to agree with you, but a thought popped into my head. If you go with all the early fluff about the Emperor, then he really is the amalgamation of all the greatest people in the history of mankind, he influenced empires, oversaw religions, brought an underdeveloped world to greatness, and apparently single handedly holds the warp open. What eldar can compete with that?

Granted, I'm in the whole, 'It's just legend' camp, but it justifies the arrogance to an extent.



p.s. story about the eldar joing an IG army is great!! use it!! it will give you plenty of convertion options and is also very orginial. just do expect some IoM players to suddenly want to destroy your army

Well, you just made my final decision for me, no turning back now. Looks like the Inquisition will be knocking at my door after all.


The details aren't known, but we know from Xenology that the process is long and complex, quite different from the "fire and forget" method humans use...

I can see it now.

"you want me to go on for how long?"
"..."
"Two weeks?"
"..."
"Two years!? I know you eldar live a while, but come on, theres no need to be that demanding in the bedroom!"

Hellebore
23-03-2007, 00:11
Basically it requires multiple copulations to transfer all the male genetic material, spread over a few months.

The Emperor isn't an amalgamation of all of Earth's historical figures per se, rather he WAS all (or some) of them.

The souls that make up the Emperor are those of the Neolithic shamans of humanity circa 8,000 BC. Human psykers fused their souls together to make him.

He then proceeded to be certain key historical figures in Earths history (not all of which would have been 'good').

The Eldar would have no technical problem fusing several thousand farseer souls together, and indeed the Infinity Circuit and Eternal Matrix are effectively merging the eldar dead together to form a god - conciously.

That will make the 2nd god they've directly made, rather than passively formed...
EDIT: This isn't entirely true, because the eldar didn't really sit down to draw up plans for Slannesh, but the manner of Her formation is much different to that of the older Eldar gods.


Hellebore

El Presedente
23-03-2007, 00:42
The Eldar would have no technical problem fusing several thousand farseer souls together, and indeed the Infinity Circuit and Eternal Matrix are effectively merging the eldar dead together to form a god - conciously.



Hmmmmmmm



...



Hmmmmmmm


Then there is one other thing, the Imperium may be a billion times smaller than the Eldars empire was, yet, they never lost as much, in context, the British Empire was never as big (locale wise) as the Roman Empire, yet, the British Empire never lost as much as the Romans in context, Britain has never been sucessfully attacked past its shores since 1066, just as the imperium has never been smashed into a bunch of independant manipulative sub-worlds like the Eldar have.

Hellebore
23-03-2007, 00:46
That's true, but I think that were the British people to turn to debauchery for a couple of thousand years their government would collapse, and their military crumble.

The Eldar brought themselves low, a classic case of arrogantitis.

Of course, Britain doesn't have to worry about creating a perversion god to eat their collective souls and destroy their entire country in one go either... :p

Hellebore

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
23-03-2007, 02:46
I can see it now.

"you want me to go on for how long?"
"..."
"Two weeks?"
"..."
"Two years!? I know you eldar live a while, but come on, theres no need to be that demanding in the bedroom!"

HAHA!!!.... I'm sorry, its just that that line was so funny:angel:
On a side note, is xenology worth the buy?

Hellebore
23-03-2007, 03:22
If you ask the purists then no, because nothing that is produced by GW can compare to how they perceive the world to be, especially when GW finally got around to producing 'official' information in areas fans cried out for, but were then spurned because it didn't agree with how those same fans perceived the 'way it's supposed to be." :rolleyes:

It's a fun book, and the only instance of 'real' biology regarding the alien races in 40k - I enjoyed it.

Hellebore

El Presedente
23-03-2007, 09:22
The Eldar brought themselves low, a classic case of arrogantitis.


And on that note, it could be said that the Imperium may never have reached the heights of the eldars intelligence but never sunk to the depths of their stupidity.

Lamhirh
23-03-2007, 10:02
Basically it requires multiple copulations to transfer all the male genetic material, spread over a few months.


You do realize that means an Eldar child could have more than two biological parents? Where have I seen that before? Oh yes: Zaphod Beeblebrox. "We share three of the same fathers..." That is pretty alien. What's up with rumors of eldar/human kids floating about in 40K? Perhaps the process of conception is a one time thing in that case. Because humans require less in the way of genetic material to begin with. I can't imagine the type of Eldar crazy enough to engage in interspecies flings taking time out to 'do things right'. That's what they pair-bond to other Eldar for. At any rate I am thinking a male Eldar gamete would have to function like a retrovirus for either scenario to work...

Colonel_von_Reave
23-03-2007, 11:10
There were Webway gates on Medusa V. That means the Eldar were there long before mankind arrived...


they still needz to die :p



There's a lot less of a difference than might be initially thought. Dark Eldar are, essentially, the Eldar who survived The Fall, but who were still on the homeworlds at the time; they escaped into the Webway, led by a youth assumed to be Asdrubael Vect, and settled in a broad crossroads or tunnel within the Webway. They live much as Eldar did in the days of The Fall - self-indulgence, hedonism, bloodthirsty politics, casual murder - but with the added and necessary twist of... they eat the souls of those they enslave. This is because the Dark Eldar, unlike Craftworld Eldar, lack soulstones and have no protection from She Who Thirsts (Slaanesh, as known to the Eldar), and thus have to consume the souls of others in order to prevent themselves from being devoured by the hungry Chaos God.

Those are the principle elements that distinguish Dark Eldar.

they all look the same to me. but than again my army pretty much hates everyone who was on medusa V (excluding space marines and other imperial forces).

Solonor
23-03-2007, 11:16
A little thought on the subject of Eldar superior technology:

Although eldar technology is fluff wise vastly superior to Imperium Tech, that doesnt mean they can use or even comprehend Humans Tech, since the way and methods each uses or used to evolve their tech is completly different.

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
23-03-2007, 16:15
A little thought on the subject of Eldar superior technology:

Although eldar technology is fluff wise vastly superior to Imperium Tech, that doesnt mean they can use or even comprehend Humans Tech, since the way and methods each uses or used to evolve their tech is completly different.


hmm, lets compare the personal defence weapons, assault rifles, and CCW of the eldar and the imperium. They look rather similar looking at the miniatures would'nt you agree?
-Pistols/Rifles, both have got trigger guards, triggers and the pistol grips take a look at the shuriken catapult and compare with the bolter/Lasgun.
-Magazine, weapons of both races also have a magazine, which must be inserted more or less the same way, trouble comes when chambering the round(projectile) but im quite sure its simple enough, if they know how to put their hands around the pistol grips, index finger into the trigger guard and pull the trigger, then reload a similar magazine.:confused:

Likewise for the CCWs, if its just an sword, just swing it,
if a chainsword or power weapon, there must be a nifty button somewhr nearby:p

EDIT: Sorry mate, i just could help myself:angel:

Rockerfella
23-03-2007, 16:24
Well...

you say that, but i've heeard lots of fluff claiming Eldar weapons are activated using the mind. Mind triggers, if you will. An eldar power sword (according to the novel harlequin) is DNA coded to its user. So, a human couldn't just pick up an eldar power sword and use it to its maximum efficiencey.

As for guns, i think the eldar kind of think 'FIRE' and the thing fires.

*shrugs*

El Presedente
23-03-2007, 16:54
Well, It takes more than squeezeing a trigger to operate a gun, and then theres taking physiolgys into accout, a humans brute strengh is probably enough to break an eldar weapon.

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
23-03-2007, 17:05
A Space Marine's brute strength, yes, a normal human, i'd hardly think so, remember an Eldar has 0%body fat, which means its all muscle. If that were so, then any one of them could break their own guns just by bending it. and IIRC, wraithbone which im assuming the guns are made out of, are even stronger than metals or maybe its like their psycho-plastic armour, it stiffens when a force or pressure is applied on it?

And just because, lets compare their strengths.... both S3!!!;)

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
23-03-2007, 17:11
Well...

you say that, but i've heeard lots of fluff claiming Eldar weapons are activated using the mind. Mind triggers, if you will. An eldar power sword (according to the novel harlequin) is DNA coded to its user. So, a human couldn't just pick up an eldar power sword and use it to its maximum efficiencey.

As for guns, i think the eldar kind of think 'FIRE' and the thing fires.

*shrugs*

Yes, that may be true, but the question at hand is whether or not an eldar could operate a human weapon.
Sure, maybe some weapons have the 'psychic' capability, if so, why bother with the trigger guard on basic weapons if theres no trigger to 'guard'? And in the heat of battle, with a hundred different things going on around the warrior or in the mind, i think it would be far easier to squeeze the trigger than to carefully seek the correct gun and tell it to fire, lest you fire the gun in the hands of the fella behind you;)

Rockerfella
23-03-2007, 17:26
Yes, that may be true, but the question at hand is whether or not an eldar could operate a human weapon.
Sure, maybe some weapons have the 'psychic' capability, if so, why bother with the trigger guard on basic weapons if theres no trigger to 'guard'? And in the heat of battle, with a hundred different things going on around the warrior or in the mind, i think it would be far easier to squeeze the trigger than to carefully seek the correct gun and tell it to fire, lest you fire the gun in the hands of the fella behind you;)

I respectfully disagree.

It would be easier for a human to pull a trigger in those circumstances. The Eldar mind is quite brilliant, capable of far more at the base level than that of a human mind. Please, do not fall into the trap of assuming what's good for the goose, is good for the gander, as they say.

In other words, just becasue YOU think it would be easier (being a human) that no way represents or gives us any indication of whether the same would apply to an eldar who possess a mind that is substantially more capable than our own.

remember, these maybe DNA coded too. An Eldar i'm sure is capable of 'pulling a trigger'. But a human soldier is certainly not capable of firing a gun with his mind. To my knowledge at least.

And, maybe having a trigger guard just makes it easier to hold.

I guess we'll never know.

:)

N0-1_H3r3
23-03-2007, 17:50
In other words, just becasue YOU think it would be easier (being a human) that no way represents or gives us any indication of whether the same would apply to an eldar who possess a mind that is substantially more capable than our own.
More relevantly, we're dealing with a mind that is inherently psychic from birth and raised within a culture that nurtures and supports psychic talent, rather than brutally suppressing it.


remember, these maybe DNA coded too. An Eldar i'm sure is capable of 'pulling a trigger'. But a human soldier is certainly not capable of firing a gun with his mind. To my knowledge at least.
Gene-coding a weapon isn't a big deal - Space Marine weapons are gene-coded, with the information sent through the gauntlet to the gun by the armour itself, and receiving weapon-related data in return (Imperial Armour III)

In regards to Eldar firing a gun mentally... a short story in the original Codex Eldar (the 1993 version, released for 2nd Edition) presents evidence that Eldar devices have psychoreactive control surfaces where a human equivalent would have levers, buttons and switches. Jetbikes, for example, detect the weight of the user sitting in the seat (which turns on the engine), and have a pair of reactive panels on the handlebars, which link the bike's systems to the user's mind - the rider can control the jetbike mentally, and is perfectly aware of the bike's status at all times, so long as he's holding the handlebars.

The concept isn't that bizarre - the Autosenses on Space Marine power armour aren't video and audio feeds played back through a visor or speakers, respectively, but rather sensory information fed directly through the armour's neural interface (the Black Carapace) directly to the Marine's brain. They don't see out of the Helmet through a visor... they see through the Helm's 'eyes'. Imperial Titans use the same control method - though the Titan is controlled through intrusive cables that link to the brain, rather than a psychic link.

Overall, direct mental impulse linking, with proper training, has the potential to be the ultimate advantage in close-range warfare. The human body takes approximately one tenth of a second for a thought to become an action. By ignoring or reducing the importance of the physical component (say, by removing the trigger on a gun), you can reduce the time between the thought and the intended result. With the Eldar mind the way it is (the Eldar brain processes thoughts and sensory information at about twice the speed of the human brain, and they have a much faster and more reliable central nervous system, making their reflexes essentially twice as fast as that of a human), the ability to simply will your gun to fire, rather than willing your hand to squeeze a trigger which fires the gun, makes them faster still in a fight. It's only fractions of a second, but in the insanity of a firefight, every second counts.

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
23-03-2007, 17:51
It would be easier for a human to pull a trigger in those circumstances. The Eldar mind is quite brilliant, capable of far more at the base level than that of a human mind. Please, do not fall into the trap of assuming what's good for the goose, is good for the gander, as they say.

In other words, just becasue YOU think it would be easier (being a human) that no way represents or gives us any indication of whether the same would apply to an eldar who possess a mind that is substantially more capable than our own.
Aye, i yield


remember, these maybe DNA coded too. An Eldar i'm sure is capable of 'pulling a trigger'. But a human soldier is certainly not capable of firing a gun with his mind. To my knowledge at least.
But an Eldar could still within reason, wield a human weapon to say, an average level of accuracy no? even if manually squeezing the trigger.


And, maybe having a trigger guard just makes it easier to hold.
I think you are confused with the pistol grip, the trigger guard is wear you rest your finger on or above, when you are not in a combat or in a high-risk area wear a firefight is imminent.


I guess we'll never know.

:)
So true...;)

Solonor
23-03-2007, 18:30
[QUOTE=L' aéronautique d' Eldar;1409441]hmm, lets compare the personal defence weapons, assault rifles, and CCW of the eldar and the imperium. They look rather similar looking at the miniatures would'nt you agree?
-Pistols/Rifles, both have got trigger guards, triggers and the pistol grips take a look at the shuriken catapult and compare with the bolter/Lasgun.
-Magazine, weapons of both races also have a magazine, which must be inserted more or less the same way, trouble comes when chambering the round(projectile) but im quite sure its simple enough, if they know how to put their hands around the pistol grips, index finger into the trigger guard and pull the trigger, then reload a similar magazine.:confused:

Likewise for the CCWs, if its just an sword, just swing it,
if a chainsword or power weapon, there must be a nifty button somewhr nearby

EDIT: Sorry mate, i just could help myself:QUOTE]

No apologises required hehe ;)

But i was talking more about the use and comprehension of manufacturing methods, since eldar use psyhic energy to engeneering procedures, it would be totally alien to them trying to produce a weapon using human engeneering.

Now regarding the fact if each race could or couldnt use the others technology in the battlefield in a pratical way his debatable, what you say could be true... but the method of using weapons could be totally alien aswell.

Regarding humans using eldar weaponry, the mental commands already discussed can justify that.

But it could be that Eldar cant use human weapons (in a pratical way of course) for the same reason, since they are used to feel their weapons and equipment and "command" them, human guns and CCW could appear bland to the eldar warrior, kind of like going to a boxing match with your arms numbed :)

El Presedente
23-03-2007, 19:48
Jetbikes, for example, detect the weight of the user sitting in the seat (which turns on the engine), and have a pair of reactive panels on the handlebars, which link the bike's systems to the user's mind - the rider can control the jetbike mentally, and is perfectly aware of the bike's status at all times, so long as he's holding the handlebars.

So if this fits the guns too then the following could be argued: The eldar are so used to controling things mentally without buttons knobs etc, that that when faced with a coplex mechanism such as a rifle, (that needs to have the safety on, gun cocked, clip released, clip replaced, safety off, pull back chamber, fire empty round, and its ready to use). If eldar would try to use said rifle, he would expect to have been able to do the former all through his mind, yet has to do it by hand, at the very least he would dither trying to figure out how the mechanism works, at the very most, he woudln't have clue how to manpulate simple mechanisms being used to automatic functions.

Lamhirh
23-03-2007, 20:43
FYI higher level human psykers have been known to operate Eldar tech ranging all the way from a splinter pistol to a damn webway gate! It depends on how strong the mind (or 'spirit') of the human involved is. With certain mutations/tweaks human speed and intellect can also go up exponentially. Almost like X-Men in 40K O_o... A powerful enough human psyker could be fully capable of doing everything from stopping an enemy's vital organs (causing instant death), to wresting control (at least temporarily) of xeno vehicles/weapons. Yep, most Humans in 40k seem pathetic now but as a species it looks like they are evolving into something downright scary: BILLIONS of mini-EoMs :eek:. Akira...

I agree with El Presedente, for an Eldar using a 'complex' human weapon would certainly take some getting used to. It would be like dropping a person who's used nothing but AT his entire life into a MT vehicle. Ah, the hazards of automation...

Hellebore
24-03-2007, 07:37
Originally their guns never had triggers and where fired via psychic impulse, but then they went and downgraded them with inferior mon-keigh mechanics :(

Without a trigger, a non eldar would need to be psychically capable to fire an eldar weapon.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
24-03-2007, 14:10
Again though, i'm hearing people here assuming from a human perspective. e.g. becasue it would be difficult for a human to change his ways or get used to something new beacause he'd been doing something else all his life, the same mindset must apply to an Eldar.

They're aliens. Not like us. They may learn much quiker. They are more intelligent than humans and live for well over a thousand years. I'm sure given a few hours with a rifle an alien with the average intelligence of an eldar could 'get used' to firing a 'complicated' human weapon. To an eldar 'Complicated' and 'human' dont belong in the same sentence. Its a contradiction in terms.

Lets not assume that just because we may find it difficult to adopt a new approach with our limited intelligence and short stubby lifespans an Eldar would suffer the same.

You may be right, they may have difficulty, i'm just playing devils advocate. *coughs*

I'd never fired a rifle before in my life, although after an hours drilling at the local army cadets in my home town i became proficient through repetition as a youngster at checking safety and going through the procedure.

Whichever way you look at it, firing a human rifle is NOT a complicated procedure. Going through the checklist before takeoff on a commercial airliner is a long and relativley complicated procedure.

Or do i think its not complicated just because i'm human and therefore am applying human thinking to the difficulties faced by an alien in the same situation? LOL

Gawd...what a mine field!

Cheers!

El Presedente
24-03-2007, 17:38
That is the one main, problem, if the eldar arn't human we can't think from their perspective, which nullifies alot of arguments.

Lamhirh
24-03-2007, 19:38
I am not saying it would be that difficult or excessively time consuming for an Eldar to properly use a high-end human weapon. Yes, they are more intelligent than the average human, but let's not forget they too are perfectly capable of making stupid mistakes (though not as often) and certainly don't know everything. People forget Farseers and the like are not your average folks. From the way people talk about run-of-the-mill Eldar you would think all of them have a permalink to the akashic records :wtf: . Their learning curve would be most impressive but if you handed one a Imperial issue gun it would still have to fiddle around with it and get a feel for it to become very proficient. That it may take them an hour or two and not a whole day is a moot point here.

El Presedente
24-03-2007, 19:48
I just thinks its down to a matter of opinion (or it could differ from craftworld to craftworld) to what extent the Eldar acould adapt to 'alien' technology, after all women tend to plan things out in their heads before doing something where a man does something and see's what works and what dosn't, I could all be down to psycology over technology or intelligence.

Lamhirh
25-03-2007, 05:30
Based on the fluff, Eldar are brilliant in some areas but have an notable tendency to be emotionally stupid. But that's not really their fault, it's the OO who engineered them for the WIH who are mainly to blame. So yes, how that inherent intelligence is expressed (or not!) has everything to do with their unique psychology, which is also reflective of their hyperactive physiology.