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View Full Version : Does anyone else think a Codex shouldn't take 6 months to a year to write?



EmperorEternalXIX
20-03-2007, 20:05
I dunno. I'm a designer, I've designed stuff here and there, including Game Systems (although much simpler than 40k). Maybe it's just me but I fail to see how a codex can take so long to make.

I'm also a writer and I've written plenty of sci-fi and fantasy stories. I bet my life that I could take any race from my stories and make an actual 40k codex in less than half that time, particularly if I had a dedicated team behind me.

I dunno. Just seems a bit screwy that folks like BA, Dark Eldar, and Orks have been waiting so long.

Arhalien
20-03-2007, 20:09
Where's the rumour in this exactly? :p

I don't mind codices taking a long time to write if it means that they're playtested well and balanced. The latest Codices seem to have been very good so hopefully the improvement will continue with the books which are taking a long time to do.

Charax
20-03-2007, 20:11
How is this news or a rumour, in any way,shape or form?

Now that's out of the way, Yes, I think it does take six months to a year to do - when you factor in the concept stage through to the models being produced, and playtesting, and the fact that they will probably only have one or two people working on a project at any one time. Six months would be the minimum I'd expect for a rushed release and a year is far more reasonable for decent playtesting, feedback and second/third stage playtesting to be done.

That's assuming GW actually follow that process of playtesting, tweaking and re-testing, but six months is a reasonable timespan, especially considering how many concurrent projects the studio will be working on at any one time.

leonmallett
20-03-2007, 20:12
Arhalien hits the nail on the head. The time isn't the writing but aiming for balance and thorough testing.

Now is this thread 'Discussion' bound?

I am just reiterating everything Arhalien says really...

sigur
20-03-2007, 20:14
I also second Arhalien's statement; do you remember what happened when GW decided to throw one crappy codex after the other at us every three months?

t-tauri
20-03-2007, 20:23
Please post in an appropriate forum. This is neither news nor rumours. Moved to 40k general.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

Arhalien
20-03-2007, 20:32
Arhalien hits the nail on the head. The time isn't the writing but aiming for balance and thorough testing.

Now is this thread 'Discussion' bound?

I am just reiterating everything Arhalien says really...


I also second Arhalien's statement; do you remember what happened when GW decided to throw one crappy codex after the other at us every three months?

Quite encouraging to have people agree with me; not something that happens very often :)

EmperorEternalXIX
20-03-2007, 20:51
Sorry about the forum. I'm on my work computer, it's not very good at all, so I posted by mistake.

I have always assumed that the time consuming part was playtesting and model sculpting...but then again I wonder who long can it really take when you have a squad of pro sculptors, designers, and such...who get paid and equipped each day to go in and do just that. The model making can't possibly take THAT long, can it...?

fracas
20-03-2007, 20:55
how many games does it take against how many different foes/armies before you know what works and what doesn't, and then apply points and value to it

Arhalien
20-03-2007, 20:57
There are a lot of different projects going on at once, these things are started long in advance. You have sculptors being assigned one project, but first they have to wait for concept art, then they have to sculpt the stuff, have it made into moulds, then have quality control on the sculpts, then have enough come off the production line for the Eavy Metal team to paint and have photographed for the book. That would take a long time IMO.

I could be talking rubbish here, but this is my understanding of how the process works, mostly from assumption :)

BrainFireBob
20-03-2007, 20:57
Model-design, approval process, mold-creation, mold-testing, perhaps re-modelling off of that, etc., creating an initial sales production run to release simultaneously with the codex- yeah, six months is about right. It doesn't stop when it's designed, that time also includes playtesting and then the entire production and promotion cycle.

EmperorEternalXIX
20-03-2007, 21:05
Well I suppose I should rephrase my original point. Six months seems reasonable. But a year? 5 years, even?

Hadhfang
20-03-2007, 21:09
I agree with Arhalien.

They have 3 systems to think about, need to write background for the codex and army, write the rules and sculp the models. Then they need to playtest against various armies and army compositions.

So 6 months is acceptable for such a diverse universe

Arhalien
20-03-2007, 21:09
I agree with Arhalien.


3 people in one thread agree with me! This must be a record! :eek:

Ghilleman
20-03-2007, 21:11
Orks are at 8 years and counting, so hopefully the rumors are validated. But it makes sense why the codexes take a long time. Alot of time does go into making abilities and such just right. Theres also writing fluff, sculpting model, on and on. But I think taht the majority of time goes into balancing everything. GW has to find the balance point between cost and abilities. 1 point orks in mobs of sixty would be a dream, but a unimaginably unbalanced dream (okay, thats an exaggeration).

Pokpoko
20-03-2007, 21:17
They have 3 systems to think about, need to write background for the codex and army, write the rules and sculp the models. Then they need to playtest against various armies and army compositions.

well, reasonable idea would be to hire more people for the dev team. enough to fully cover each system.or released beta-test rules as they used to do to help them in the playtests. and choose a cadre of highly-motivated rules laywers to help them wirte the rules in as-clear as possible manner.

El Presedente
20-03-2007, 21:17
I say your perfectly right, The Judge Dredd megazine is about the size of half a Codex, its monthly, It has a dedicated team behind it. Granted GW need time to convirm everything and double check the rules and stuff, but if they had planned this from before the release of 5th edition they could have had all the suppliments out a year afterwoods.

Arhalien
20-03-2007, 21:18
But can they afford to hire more people at the moment?

BrainFireBob
20-03-2007, 21:18
Orks are only, realistically speaking, at two to three years- since the new edition, which is what necessitated the existence of a new Ork 'dex.

And Orks, according to rumors, are giving the sculptors, or rather the mold-makers, nightmares. Rather, the Ork vehicles are. Me, I think it'll prove worth the wait if they do get the modular vehicle kit right- be the Trukk equivalent, in modelling terms, of the Rhino.

Bregalad
20-03-2007, 21:19
You still think like a writer, who doesn't care about the rest of the production process.
You want playtesting in one day.
You want perfect design and game mechanic ideas, fitting perfectly into the whole 40k system, in, say , a week? (GW is searching for new sculpters BTW)
You want 5 new manufacturing plants for producing the double/triple number of different models per year.
You want customers with triple the amount of money for buying all this stuff.
And behind all this the "here is the money, be creative and give me your results tomorrow" attitude. This is a bit blunt.

Templar Ben
20-03-2007, 21:20
well, reasonable idea would be to hire more people for the dev team. enough to fully cover each system.or released beta-test rules as they used to do to help them in the playtests. and choose a cadre of highly-motivated rules laywers to help them wirte the rules in as-clear as possible manner.

Well reasonable would be the decision which results in higher profit. I don't see increasing production costs for the a Codex (not the money maker figures are) is going to result in more profit.

BrainFireBob
20-03-2007, 21:23
More people on the dev team=less cohesive vision.

It was only during third that there was a really serious 40K/fantasy dev team division.

The dev team is large enough, and in fact always has what, four codices in the works at a time? You can only have so many guys working on refining the same product before it gets ridiculous, evidence the last CSM codex. Brainstorming, sure, that can be open session, and it may well be, but the actual balancing work? Not so much.

EDIT: And really, there aren't that many rules loopholes. It's the people sitting back cracking open their dictionaries for alternate word meanings that create a lot of the problem- or people with preconceived ideas of how it should work. "No armory in DA? What a typo!" No, idgit, it's not supposed to be there. The English is sufficient, and only fairly rarely flat-out wrong, it's just not always completely exclusive of things that aren't designer intent. That's an exploitive player problem.

I don't buy PP being so incredible. Warmachine is supposed to be warped that way. I imagine the designers are excited when someone finds such a crack. 40K is NOT intended to function that way.

The Emperor
20-03-2007, 21:32
Well I suppose I should rephrase my original point. Six months seems reasonable. But a year? 5 years, even?

That assumes they sit around twiddiling their thumbs doing nothing in the meantime, which they don't. 40k isn't the sole product put out by GW. There's also Warhammer Fantasy and Lord of the Rings, all of which consume resources.

As for writing a Codex, it's easy to say "I could write a Codex in two shakes of a lambs tail" or whatever. It takes longer, though, when you take into account playtesting. Then there's the fact that GW just doesn't release Codex's without miniatures to support it. Could you imagine if they released Codex: Eldar, and there were no Autarch miniatures? No new Dire Avengers? Harlequins? Nothing? How about Codex: Dark Eldar. That range needs a complete makeover. How badly would it suck if a new Codex were to come out and you had to continue using the old crappy model range? That problem would be compounded by the fact that A) There would likely be new units introduced in the army list, which won't have any miniatures available for them, and B) That some units previously legal will become obsolete. So releasing a Codex: Dark Eldar without accompanying new miniatures wouldn't be a favor for Dark Eldar players. It'd be a screw job.

And the facilities for producing those miniatures, when they're making those, that means they're not making other miniatures. So when they're putting out new Eldar miniatures, they're not putting out new Dwarf miniatures. When they're putting out new Dwarf miniatures, they're not putting out new Uruk-Hai miniatures. When they're putting out new Uruk-Hai miniatures, they're not putting out new Dark Eldar miniatures.

It's easy to say "Well, they should hire more designers, get more factories, etc", but money doesn't grow on trees. They'll have to find the money to pay for all of that from somewhere, and that means passing the costs on to the customer. People already bitch about the prices of GW models. Can anyone imagine the wailing that would arise if GW jacked up the price even more to pay for all those things?

On top of which, GW appears to be losing money at the moment. So they've got some belt tightening to do. It's a bit difficult to hire more people and buy more machinery when you're losing money, rather then making it.

At the end of the day, the only way to get faster Codex's is to cut the quality and the amount of new miniatures. And does anyone really want that? God knows I don't miss those horrid Codex's that GW released every five minutes at the start of 3rd edition. I definitely don't want to see that godawful time repeated.

Vaktathi
20-03-2007, 21:37
I dunno. I'm a designer, I've designed stuff here and there, including Game Systems (although much simpler than 40k). Maybe it's just me but I fail to see how a codex can take so long to make.

I'm also a writer and I've written plenty of sci-fi and fantasy stories. I bet my life that I could take any race from my stories and make an actual 40k codex in less than half that time, particularly if I had a dedicated team behind me.

I dunno. Just seems a bit screwy that folks like BA, Dark Eldar, and Orks have been waiting so long.

It's not so much the writing, but balancing, playtesting, making sure you have models for them, artwork, layout design, printing production, distribution, and market timing are all part of this. They could probably write, playtest and balance a codex in 6 weeks, but they'd still need artwork, layout and all the other fun production and marketing stuff which takes more time.

Champsguy
20-03-2007, 21:39
The codex writing shouldn't take that long. I could write a new Dark Eldar (or Orks, take your pick) codex in a week. It's not like I'd be starting from scratch. I played those suckers for a few years, I know them fairly well. Some buddies and I have BS'ed (and no, I ain't talkin' "Ballistic Skill") about possibilities for a while now. I've got a feel for the system, and know about how much any particular squad or option should cost. Any GW development staffer should be in the same boat.

So day 1, you have a morning brainstorming session, getting several people to toss in ideas. In the afternoon, you write up a quick outline of what you want the army to look like, including special rules that apply to the entire army, special organization charts, or any big important units that affect the way the army will play (like SM Tactical Squads). Day 2, you hash out some more quick rules for units in the morning and play them using a hodge-podge of the current codex and your new rules in the afternoon. Day 3, repeat. Modify the costs on any units that seem too powerful or too weak. Day 4, write some fluff and unit descriptions. Day 5, proofread and double-check points costs. Done.

Now, will this be the greatest codex ever? No, but it sure couldn't be worse than some of the dexes that GW has put out before. Playtesting? That's not a big deal - it'll affect a few unit costs, or might end up causing a re-write to a special rule or something, but those are fairly small potatoes. You get the draft done and you can tweak to your heart's content.

The real thing that takes time is the model creation (a bit of time) and the release schedule (a lot of time). GW prices are high enough and their consumer base is small enough that they can't afford to release all their codexes with all their new models at once. It's a business plan problem, not a production problem.

Arhalien
20-03-2007, 21:44
You say that your effort won;t be the greatest codex ever,a nd that's part of the point. If GW start releasing codices whih have obviously been reeled off in a couple of weeks then people will start getting annoyed at their lack of effort. i'd rather have good books which take a while to write than new books every other month that are terrible. This is a hobby that I spend lots of money on; I don't want to pay for a new rules-set which hasn't had the necessary time spent on it.

Tigerguy
20-03-2007, 21:47
GW spreads releases out because that is how they make money. And I'm not slamming GW here. If they released every army as quick as they could, what would they do then? I haven't seen any figures, but I could pretty much guarantee that sales go up every time a new Codex and models are released. They know that consumers have a finite number of dollars to spend over a given time, and they want to maximize their income over an extended period, not in the short run. It is the business model they have chosen to use.

They must also look at expense vs. revenue. The Tau Codex only needed little fixes and a few models. Little expense, and potential for increased income from the line. From the number of Tau armies I saw after the release, I'd say it worked. Orks are a different matter. Pretty much their whole model line needs replacing, which is a lot more expense for probably the same amount of income they got from Tau. Thus, less profit. If I was GW, I wouldn't be real excited about the Ork Codex. But for the overall good of their game system, they need to do it. So to maximize profits, not only do the Codex and models need to be good, but the timing of the release has to be right too. Remember, GW not only has to listen to the people that play their games, but to the shareholders of their stock as well. Without both, there would be no GW. I certainly don't want that.

El Presedente
20-03-2007, 21:52
But can they afford to hire more people at the moment?

Well if they can hire enough for White Dwarf then sure.


So day 1, you have a morning brainstorming session, getting several people to toss in ideas. In the afternoon, you write up a quick outline of what you want the army to look like, including special rules that apply to the entire army, special organization charts, or any big important units that affect the way the army will play (like SM Tactical Squads). Day 2, you hash out some more quick rules for units in the morning and play them using a hodge-podge of the current codex and your new rules in the afternoon. Day 3, repeat. Modify the costs on any units that seem too powerful or too weak. Day 4, write some fluff and unit descriptions. Day 5, proofread and double-check points costs. Done.

Yes, but things don't quite work out like that, I'm doing a degree in media and we have to make a short five minuet film, when we planned it out, in theory it should have been done a week ago, naturally, things take longer than you expect, especially when you have people to rely on. Plus, a day to write and check all the fluff? Madness.

Bookwrak
20-03-2007, 21:52
The codex writing shouldn't take that long. I could write a new Dark Eldar (or Orks, take your pick) codex in a week.

You could probably write a new codex in a day, but that's completely irrelevant. It's the playtesting, and fiddling with unit attributes and point costs that's going to eat up time. So you play a game against one army in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day going over performance notes. So things look good at 750 points, but what about 3000? You want to make sure that you didn't overlook anything important, so you're probably going to be playing games of all point levels against all armies, and finally this codex is probably not the only project you're currently working on.

lanrak
20-03-2007, 21:53
Hi all.
The real promlem is one of perception.
GW make 'collectable model games.'The emphasis is on the 'hobbiests' collecting lots of GW minatures.
This IS dependant on the high asthetic content, high quality models ,artwork and background narrative.This does take a long time to develop.
To assure good marketing results.

Those gamers who expect GW games to be 'wargames developed for ballanced competative play',are always going to be disapointed by GW games.

Resolving real game play issues, and ballance between individual forces, has always been hit and miss at GW towers.
Recently GW efforts apear to be non existant in these important 'gamer' issues.

SM have had 2 Chapters Specific 'Codexes ' infront of entire races that are desperate need of a new codex.

This is a direct indicator of GW focus.
Selling models is paramount,game ballance and game play come a very poor second.

Why not seperate the functional aspects from the asthetic aspects ,so niether slows down the release of the other?


TTFN
Lanrak.

Champsguy
20-03-2007, 21:58
That assumes they sit around twiddiling their thumbs doing nothing in the meantime, which they don't. 40k isn't the sole product put out by GW. There's also Warhammer Fantasy and Lord of the Rings, all of which consume resources.

As for writing a Codex, it's easy to say "I could write a Codex in two shakes of a lambs tail" or whatever. It takes longer, though, when you take into account playtesting. Then there's the fact that GW just doesn't release Codex's without miniatures to support it. Could you imagine if they released Codex: Eldar, and there were no Autarch miniatures? No new Dire Avengers? Harlequins? Nothing? How about Codex: Dark Eldar. That range needs a complete makeover. How badly would it suck if a new Codex were to come out and you had to continue using the old crappy model range? That problem would be compounded by the fact that A) There would likely be new units introduced in the army list, which won't have any miniatures available for them, and B) That some units previously legal will become obsolete. So releasing a Codex: Dark Eldar without accompanying new miniatures wouldn't be a favor for Dark Eldar players. It'd be a screw job.

And the facilities for producing those miniatures, when they're making those, that means they're not making other miniatures. So when they're putting out new Eldar miniatures, they're not putting out new Dwarf miniatures. When they're putting out new Dwarf miniatures, they're not putting out new Uruk-Hai miniatures. When they're putting out new Uruk-Hai miniatures, they're not putting out new Dark Eldar miniatures.

It's easy to say "Well, they should hire more designers, get more factories, etc", but money doesn't grow on trees. They'll have to find the money to pay for all of that from somewhere, and that means passing the costs on to the customer. People already bitch about the prices of GW models. Can anyone imagine the wailing that would arise if GW jacked up the price even more to pay for all those things?

On top of which, GW appears to be losing money at the moment. So they've got some belt tightening to do. It's a bit difficult to hire more people and buy more machinery when you're losing money, rather then making it.

At the end of the day, the only way to get faster Codex's is to cut the quality and the amount of new miniatures. And does anyone really want that? God knows I don't miss those horrid Codex's that GW released every five minutes at the start of 3rd edition. I definitely don't want to see that godawful time repeated.

You're right about most of that, except I don't think playtesting takes as long as people think. These are people who get paid to do this as their full time job. You can play a game in an hour or two. You think 10 or 20 games is enough to get a handle on a revised codex? Especially if you've got more than one guy playtesting it at once? I think it is. Now, if they're creating a new army, that'll probably take more time. But many codexes have changed little since 3rd, in regards to basic unit costs and capabilities.

I also think GW has a bad business plan. The re-releasing of armies so quickly (you don't see Monopoly changing the rules every 5 or 6 years), the higher costs of models, all of it targeting a slow-growing audience, most of whom already have their armies complete. GW should sell more figures at a lower price. Sell a new version of Space Hulk in stores like Toys R Us and Wal-Mart. You should see a Battle of McCragge=style box set (though with more minis and some colored plastic terrain) for $35 at normal, non-game stores. Expand the audience outside the standard core group. Plastic miniatures aren't expensive at all. If you don't change your molds every few years, you can sell that stuff for dirt cheap and still make a profit. There's a reason I can go to the local Dollar Store and buy a bag of 50 army men and a plastic tank for like three dollars. Those companies don't change their molds. You guys seen HeroScape? It's on sale at Wal-Mart. It's a LOT cheaper than 40K, and you get a lot of nice miniatures. Games Workshop needs to learn to SELL IN BULK. Honestly, if GW spends (number out of air here) $500K to create a new line of ork figs, then those costs are going to get passed on to the consumer. If there are 10,000 ork players out there, then each one is paying a $50 premium on his miniatures, before GW pays salaries, rent, production costs, or makes a profit. If, on the other hand, there are 100,000 people out there buying your basic ork set (in the big "Space Ork Showdown!" box sets on sale at Target), then everyone is paying a $5 premium. That, and only that, will allow GW to lower prices to a more reasonable level and still produce high quality miniatures.

Champsguy
20-03-2007, 22:00
Yes, but things don't quite work out like that, I'm doing a degree in media and we have to make a short five minuet film, when we planned it out, in theory it should have been done a week ago, naturally, things take longer than you expect, especially when you have people to rely on. Plus, a day to write and check all the fluff? Madness.

They don't have too much fluff in those codexes anymore. And a lot of it is rehashed from White Dwarf articles or previous editions. If I can write an appellate brief in a week, they can make a codex.

El Presedente
20-03-2007, 22:06
They don't have too much fluff in those codexes anymore. And a lot of it is rehashed from White Dwarf articles or previous editions. If I can write an appellate brief in a week, they can make a codex.

Yes, but this is buisness we're talking about, the executive staff dont call up, say, five people and say, do a codex, and then they all work together to piece it up, if they did it would probably work faster. They call the fluff writers and say, give me one piece of fluff by the end of next month, if that, they don't say, a week becuse the writers going to be working on other projects, so they're going to be waiting on somebody, and while he's doing that, the artists also have other projects, as do the editors, the graphic designers etc, trying to get them to all work simultainiously would be a nightmare.

Although I do agree that a Codex shouldn't take that long.

Champsguy
20-03-2007, 22:08
You could probably write a new codex in a day, but that's completely irrelevant. It's the playtesting, and fiddling with unit attributes and point costs that's going to eat up time. So you play a game against one army in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day going over performance notes. So things look good at 750 points, but what about 3000? You want to make sure that you didn't overlook anything important, so you're probably going to be playing games of all point levels against all armies, and finally this codex is probably not the only project you're currently working on.

It'll be the only one I'm working on this week, though. I'm saying I could crank one out in a week. If you guys want to send me some cash so I can take a few days off, I'll prove it. ;) And balancing a codex isn't all that difficult. You'd need to play probably three or four games against MEQs, a few against GEQs, and then a few against Hordes. As long as you know the rules of the game, and know how the new army will interact with other armies' special rules (WBB, ATSKNF, etc), then you're covered. There's a guy at our local store who writes up house rules all the time. He sees a problem with the way something works, he proposes a rule, we try it out a few times, and we keep it or ditch it. Very rarely has anything had to be modified from the way he originally wrote it. It's not really that difficult.

Again, the real reason they take so long is because of GW's business plan. The actual writing of the codex shouldn't take them long at all (of course, I know how things can take longer than anticipated - you may have to wait a month and a half for a piece of artwork to get done because Mr Illustrator went and got himself sent to rehab or something).

UnRiggable
20-03-2007, 22:10
I fail to see how it could take so short. I mean, they also have to work in the Fantasy division, they have to create the new models, they have to rework pretty much everything. It's like saying 'how could it take so long to record a CD?'

lord_blackfang
20-03-2007, 22:33
GW spreads releases out because that is how they make money. And I'm not slamming GW here. If they released every army as quick as they could, what would they do then? I haven't seen any figures, but I could pretty much guarantee that sales go up every time a new Codex and models are released. They know that consumers have a finite number of dollars to spend over a given time, and they want to maximize their income over an extended period, not in the short run. It is the business model they have chosen to use.

Ladies and Germans, we have a winrar.

If they wanted to, GW could have all the armies for all their systems released within a year, all miniatures included. But it would be a lot of effort for little extra income. Most gamers couldn't afford all the armies they wanted in such a short time span, and in the long run GW would have less overall profit.

Alfie
20-03-2007, 22:41
I agree with champsguy.

I would of thought its business motivated. They need a steady stream of income. People finish an army and wham a new codex with new models...

Also, if they produced all the codex close together what would they release in years 2,3,4 etc (all the new models would have to be released with the codex). People would get bored with new codex, armies models etc they are more likely go elsewhere.

Zzarchov
20-03-2007, 23:21
You know what they should do to keep up sales?

Release expansion codexes. "Buy Codex Orks" and "Codex More Orks". Allow the first one to be played alone and the second one as an add on. Keep selling miniatures, sell more books, but not make it too confusing for new players.

VetSgtNamaan
20-03-2007, 23:55
Gw is I would have to say bloated and inefficient as far as companies go with for the most part poor customer relations and seemingly little care to correct things, though apparently things have been changing for the better.

I think they get set in a certain manner of doing things or at least thier employees do anyway with the attitude that what ever they release it will be bought cause it has always been that way. When I think of GW I often think of TSR how they pretty much did D&D thier way without worrying about what the customer wanted figuring it will sell cause it is D&D. For the most part TSR was right for a while anyway. Likewise GW runs things the way it does cause it can get away with it, if it will get bought up like TSR did remains to be seen but I think that could be a real danger if GW does not tighten up its business model and refocus on what its core products should be.

I suspect that the reason the last 6-8 months have seem so many releases is GW stepping things up a little bit to help keep products coming out that are of interest to its customers. since that is a basic model every company needs to follow to some degree.

Kegluneq
21-03-2007, 00:13
Argh, no - you just alienate the players who only buy one book then.

I can understand why it takes so long to produce new codices. They have to make new rules absolutely watertight after all - no one wants to chase up a ton of supplements to play their expensive army.

THE KAPPTIN
21-03-2007, 00:28
Oh, wow, I thought your topic said "Does anyone else think a Codex should take 6 months to make?" - I was prepared to agree with you!

You know how broken our codexes are, and how much we complain about formatting, lack of new art, bad writing, typos, proofreading errors. If they actually spent 6 months on each book, we'd probably have two very high-quality releases per year.

Lancaster
21-03-2007, 01:13
As for writing a Codex, it's easy to say "I could write a Codex in two shakes of a lambs tail" or whatever. It takes longer, though, when you take into account playtesting. Then there's the fact that GW just doesn't release Codex's without miniatures to support it. Could you imagine if they released Codex: Eldar, and there were no Autarch miniatures? No new Dire Avengers? Harlequins? Nothing? How about Codex: Dark Eldar. That range needs a complete makeover. How badly would it suck if a new Codex were to come out and you had to continue using the old crappy model range? That problem would be compounded by the fact that A) There would likely be new units introduced in the army list, which won't have any miniatures available for them, and B) That some units previously legal will become obsolete. So releasing a Codex: Dark Eldar without accompanying new miniatures wouldn't be a favor for Dark Eldar players. It'd be a screw job.

To be fair, I don't know where you can find a Battlewagon Box set


You know what they should do to keep up sales?

Release expansion codexes. "Buy Codex Orks" and "Codex More Orks". Allow the first one to be played alone and the second one as an add on. Keep selling miniatures, sell more books, but not make it too confusing for new players.

Zzarchov, that is possibly the worst idea I have ever heard... I almost didn't get into 40K because I had to buy the Necron Codex AND the 3rd edition rulebook... I can not only see the multicodex system as turning away new customers, but killing the game for existing players who don't want to dish out 30-40$ every month for some tweaked rules and a new Elites Choice


I think that 6 months per codex is the very longest acceptable time for a release schedule.

I mean, yes it takes a while to playtest, to build the model sprues, to market them, etc etc, but lets look at what we get here

Necrons:
ONE box that contains more than a single plastic model
ONE vehicle box
ONE Single model plastics box with 3 variants (Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer, Destroyer Lord)
The rest, are merely pewter blisters

That couldn't have taken the 6 months for the modelling team to do, if it did I am shocked.

If every army got the same treatment Codex: Space Marines did, then I would think 6 months seems too short. THAT was a quality release, THAT has tons of plastics to keep players going, (sorry guys, I gotta say) balanced rules, etc, etc...

Codex: Tyranids was another release that blew my mind-expectations wise-Very well written options, suprisingly detailed for their volume miniatures, and tons of plastics. Worthy of the 6 months process.

From what I understand halfway through the design of Codex: Tyranids, GW switched to a computer program to design their miniatures meaning that something like the Carnifex, which would take a month, took about two weeks. TWO WEEKS for the Carnifex is unbelievable, have you guys seen the model?

Hopefully this means more plastics for everybody and shortened production time for GW.

When the quality is there, which it now seems to be, 6 months is reasonable. When it is lacking, 6 months is just laziness

gorgon
21-03-2007, 01:49
If they wanted to, GW could have all the armies for all their systems released within a year, all miniatures included. But it would be a lot of effort for little extra income. Most gamers couldn't afford all the armies they wanted in such a short time span, and in the long run GW would have less overall profit.

Yeah, once again, codicies sell miniatures. Stacking codicies too close to one another means customers run out of disposable income. Their marketing strategy right now is fine...they just need to keep developing releases like CoD and Apocalypse so that armies that aren't up for a new codex get some love too.

FunnyTom
21-03-2007, 02:04
I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the old SoB codex got heavily playtested. They played 30 games or something with it. (I think I heard it on a forum somewhere, so I can't source, sorry).

I do have to wonder how much they do unit pricing (points wise, not $$) though. Take the new rules for wraithguard. They are heaps better than the old ones, but they are still too expensive to be taken as a core choice ( for Illayden lists), are no better at killing than firedragons and just as vunrable to heavy weapons (I'm thinking 'Russ pieplates here). This would be offset by the fact that they are much better against anti-infantry weapons, but the fact is that losing 150-200 points to a single tank shot in a unit which has no ability to strike back (due to range).

I suppose what I am trying to say is that even when GW puts a fair amount of time into a 'dex they still seem to make serious (although localised) errors.

Voss
21-03-2007, 04:24
This thread frightens me on many, many levels. Some of you folks need a serious reality check.

VetSgtNamaan
21-03-2007, 05:40
This thread frightens me on many, many levels. Some of you folks need a serious reality check.

WHat reality check? I work hard I make a boat load of money and if GW wants to get it they need to make me more Dark Angel goodies. It seems pretty simple to me honestly. They make more of the stuff I like then I give them more of my money rather than using it to buy flames of war, DND, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, more cds etc....

Grimbad
21-03-2007, 05:50
Could you imagine if they released Codex: Eldar, and there were no Autarch miniatures? No new Dire Avengers? Harlequins? Nothing?

Could you imagine if they released codex: orks with special characters without models? No flash gits? Docs? Cyborks? Painbosses? Big meks? kommandos? (those last two have been crossed off the list since)
It has happened, and look! Ork players are likely the most devoted group of 40k players. Look at that "who loves orks? (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080&page=281)" thread.

Duhgame
21-03-2007, 07:11
Well I would guess that they take their time to produce it, they have to work on severla projects at once, or whatever else I missed.

Either that or they slap it together in one night while playing games the rest of the time. :D

fwacho
21-03-2007, 07:33
you'll note I'm an actuall author with an actual book...
keep in mind this is simply a story book without models and pictures to include as well.
I took me a full year from the time my book was accepted till the time it was in my hands... and that was rushing it.

keep in mind they still have to print out enough copies (BOTH MINITURES and CODEXES) THIS IS HUGE!!!! so everyone can get one when their released. (this is what takes Harry Potter so long)

My guess is that at any given time they are working on 4 projects and keeping a notebook full of ideas for the rest. Once a notebook reaches critical mass they put into the production line.

i used to make games as teenager. just getting the rules straight was usually a very long process. playtesting was a pain... and assigning value was always tough.

keep in mind all the processes that have been mentioned already. there's alot to do and often it waits on other things. they seem to release about 4 major Dex's a year between 40k and WHFB. that's acatuly a pretty good rate. considering each one is almost 3 years in the making.

i always find it interesting to think they occasionally playtest armies agianst each other that aren't even available yet.

Voss
21-03-2007, 08:22
WHat reality check? I work hard I make a boat load of money and if GW wants to get it they need to make me more Dark Angel goodies. It seems pretty simple to me honestly. They make more of the stuff I like then I give them more of my money rather than using it to buy flames of war, DND, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, more cds etc....

It wasn't directed at you.

BrainFireBob
21-03-2007, 08:43
I also think GW has a bad business plan. The re-releasing of armies so quickly (you don't see Monopoly changing the rules every 5 or 6 years), the higher costs of models, all of it targeting a slow-growing audience, most of whom already have their armies complete. GW should sell more figures at a lower price. Sell a new version of Space Hulk in stores like Toys R Us and Wal-Mart. You should see a Battle of McCragge=style box set (though with more minis and some colored plastic terrain) for $35 at normal, non-game stores. Expand the audience outside the standard core group. Plastic miniatures aren't expensive at all. If you don't change your molds every few years, you can sell that stuff for dirt cheap and still make a profit. There's a reason I can go to the local Dollar Store and buy a bag of 50 army men and a plastic tank for like three dollars. Those companies don't change their molds. You guys seen HeroScape? It's on sale at Wal-Mart. It's a LOT cheaper than 40K, and you get a lot of nice miniatures. Games Workshop needs to learn to SELL IN BULK. Honestly, if GW spends (number out of air here) $500K to create a new line of ork figs, then those costs are going to get passed on to the consumer. If there are 10,000 ork players out there, then each one is paying a $50 premium on his miniatures, before GW pays salaries, rent, production costs, or makes a profit. If, on the other hand, there are 100,000 people out there buying your basic ork set (in the big "Space Ork Showdown!" box sets on sale at Target), then everyone is paying a $5 premium. That, and only that, will allow GW to lower prices to a more reasonable level and still produce high quality miniatures.

They tried this last year/two years ago with Macragge. Didn't pan out.

Cypher
21-03-2007, 08:49
Actually it's far simpler - let's say next month GW release a new edition of 40K, and with it a full set of codices and miniatures. What do you think will happen?

They space the releases out to ensure that they have a consistent stream of new products to sell. If they released the 'whole set' in one go they would take a massive profit loss. New sales are equal to impulse purchases - you see something new and it looks nice. If there's too much new stuff, you cant afford it all in one go so you end up buying less.

They space the release schedule to maximise the profits - most entertainment industries do the same thing.

leonmallett
21-03-2007, 09:39
Actually it's far simpler - let's say next month GW release a new edition of 40K, and with it a full set of codices and miniatures. What do you think will happen?

They space the releases out to ensure that they have a consistent stream of new products to sell. If they released the 'whole set' in one go they would take a massive profit loss. New sales are equal to impulse purchases - you see something new and it looks nice. If there's too much new stuff, you cant afford it all in one go so you end up buying less.

They space the release schedule to maximise the profits - most entertainment industries do the same thing.

It isn't just about profit, it also has to be about sufficient quality - insufficent quality and people won't buy.

Champsguy - a week?!? I am sorry you are deluded. There or four test games? Again the vagaries of rules interactions and chance would make that seem unlikely. Fluff? There has been quite a bit in recent codices. The rules aren't written and then models made, the approach is more synergistic going from a conceptual stage of looking at design ethos, some 'cultural' reference for the army in question and then slowly assembling the list. Which then gets revised, and revised, and no doubt revised more. Have you done an academic course? How long does it take to work on an essay at just say 3000 words? In my experience you gather your reference materials, do your research or wider reading, plan, write, re-write and revise, repeating that latter stage until those involved (which in GW's case is many) are happy, all taking considerable time. The word count on a codex? More than a few thousand I'd guess. We could all probably churn out a list of rules with no fluff in no time (a week you suggest), however it doesn't mean that approach would be any good.

Stormsender
21-03-2007, 09:55
I think they are changing the format to the way they have in an effort to reduce costs accross the board, it has nothing to due with the core gaming group or the fluff it's all driven by sound business decission. I am convinced that codex DA and codex Eldar and plastic mini's and less character figures are the future of 40k.
You see GW has realised that the hardcore group of people that customise the mini's will do so even if they don't produce the individual pieces necessary to convert the different poses and weapon configurations. So to make things more financially efficient in regards to producton costs they are creating codex's that contain minitures that are playable out of the box wyswyg with fewer options and customisation.
It's all about the bottom line streamlining and selling the mini's and the codex's for a reasonable profit with as low production and expense as possible. Time is money I am sure if they could push 6 codex's a year they would do it. If that wasn't enough they would invent more races, it's all about the business. I wish they would release all the relevant material such as the DA, BA, SW, SM: CODEX and the BT, along with Orcs, and all the others that need clarificaton and updating.
It's all a business compromise keep mini's flowing and keep generating a codex on a regular basis for fiscal stability. Less metal more plastic depending on the least expensive production of the 2, speed production and publishing of codex's and timed releases for company stability. If they over supply the lack of demand will kill the company's bottom line. It's all business.

Vanger
21-03-2007, 10:07
Lets forget profits and bussiness plan. Lets say GW releases all 11 updated codicies in 1 year (that's 1 every month) but after that WHAT? You get nothing, becasue severything is released. 40K v.5? And then repeate the process?

And then when you are a games developer, how many concepts did you make for the same game? I imagine that with 4th edition they not only brainstorm for ideas, but create (at least rudimentary) concepts of say 4-5 ideas, how the army should look like (units, FOC aligments, rules). And then they decide which one should be fleshed out. Then back at the desk, work it out, and repeat that process, because they throw that back. That takes time.
[dice0]

Scythe
21-03-2007, 10:24
You're right about most of that, except I don't think playtesting takes as long as people think. These are people who get paid to do this as their full time job. You can play a game in an hour or two. You think 10 or 20 games is enough to get a handle on a revised codex? Especially if you've got more than one guy playtesting it at once? I think it is. Now, if they're creating a new army, that'll probably take more time. But many codexes have changed little since 3rd, in regards to basic unit costs and capabilities.


That's 1-2 games against every other army out there. Enough to test every option (especially in an army such diverse as Eldar or Space Marines)?


Zzarchov, that is possibly the worst idea I have ever heard... I almost didn't get into 40K because I had to buy the Necron Codex AND the 3rd edition rulebook... I can not only see the multicodex system as turning away new customers, but killing the game for existing players who don't want to dish out 30-40$ every month for some tweaked rules and a new Elites Choice


I agree. Though I own pretty much every codex now, the thought of buying an expensive rulebook and an expensive codex was not really encouraging me to pick up warhammer when I started. If anything, the decision to kill add-on codexes like craftworld eldar and dark angels (3rd edition) was a good one. Even more, I think reducing the codex prices would interest more people in the hobby, as it makes starting up cheaper. It would also encourage more people to start second or third armies, as picking up a codex just to have a look at other armies possibilities would be more affordable. But then, that's just a thought.


Could you imagine if they released codex: orks with special characters without models? No flash gits? Docs? Cyborks? Painbosses? Big meks? kommandos? (those last two have been crossed off the list since)
It has happened, and look! Ork players are likely the most devoted group of 40k players. Look at that "who loves orks?" thread.

And consequently, Orks are also one of the least popular armies out there. Sure, the Ork players that are out there might be very devoted to their army, but in popularity, they only beat Dark Eldar.
I am not saying this is pure because the lack of a lot of codex models, but I think it is a considerable factor.

Von Wallace
21-03-2007, 10:40
I'd like to know where i can pick up a job designing games :P Much better then good old College and being Uncle Sam's play thing...

But I digress - GW is a business, a buddy and I took a look at all that we have bought from them, the days we spent within GW alone got chow then went back, played their little games when HQ went was down watching and what not and we were astonished. They sell a commodity so you don't need to be an economics major to understand this stuff, this IS a hobby so you have to deal with all the Hobby crap as my late Uncle would say. Steep prices at times, lack of content at times - however to 40k and Fantasy systems to me are awesome and this to date in my life is one hobby I can't put down.

So I guess GW owns my fielty and thus I give it, because without our money GW wouldn't be anything...

THE CHIEF
21-03-2007, 11:58
It just does my head in that they take so long between the actual books - I don't mind the rate at which they release miniatures at all.

I think they should adopt (in all seriousness) a new strategy of getting all the Codices and rulebooks written in one go, balanced and tested all together so there is nothing 'broken' or 'unbalanced' ANYWHERE in the system, this would make for a much better game overall. They would have an epic launch for fifth edition if they did this, where everybody can get the rules they want/need with no waiting around and more importantly no hangups/errors/unbalances from the previous editions permiating through.

They could then release the new model ranges at their leisure as normal whilst building up just as much hype as usual before each new release. It is after all the models that are the main focus of this hobby anyway, not a bunch of ill concieved books that don't work in harmony together.

Tensor
21-03-2007, 12:28
Its not about how long it takes to write. Releasing a codex for everything at the same time is madness, from asales point of view. Codexes are there to push sales of minis. Releasing them all at once may result in a lot of minis sold in a short tim but in the long term, elss minis sold.

Release every 6 months though, and lots of people build that army, then when the next one comes out do that one, or skip one and do the nerxt one, etc etc. It gives plenty of time to hype the upcomining minis and army and keep sales going for longer.

THE CHIEF
21-03-2007, 12:38
Sorry to disagree mate. Its MODELS that sell models, not the army books. I never said release everything in one go either - just the rules. If the models are good enough they will sell themselves. The Codices are just for the rules for how to use what you bought.

leonmallett
21-03-2007, 13:07
Sorry to disagree mate. Its MODELS that sell models, not the army books. I never said release everything in one go either - just the rules. If the models are good enough they will sell themselves. The Codices are just for the rules for how to use what you bought.

Sorry to disagree with you. It is a combination of factors that sell models: excitement/anticipation, White Dwarf, shop staff (GW, independent, online), personal taste/preference, rules (therefore codices), advertising (back to WD, but effectively Codices act to 'sell' models by being an advert of sorts that is in continuous publication), sites such as this with rumour-mongering (which I like BTW!), quality of sculpting, quality of production, 'value' (this last one is affected by the size and complexity of the model, as well as the value it represents in game terms) and so on. Models don't just sell models or else these other factors (other than personal prefernce) would not be present.

Gaz
21-03-2007, 13:18
I'm quite happy with the wait of 6 months, considering the amount that has to be done. On the point of models being released with the codex, don't forget that they need to be designed aswell. There's going to be prototype after prototype, then it'll have to be chopped and changed etc so you can have the more diverse boxed sets (Dire Avengers,marines etc). Then there's going to be the production of the molds, which all costs money. Im sure that if they had the money to do it all at once, they would. But they have salaries and rent to pay, and there's no point selling a product if you don't have any staff or shops which to sell from.
The codexes probably don't take as long to write, but it's all the support that goes into it that will beef the time up. Im curious as to how many people would complain if codexes were released monthly, but without supporting models.

Voodoo Boyz
21-03-2007, 13:25
The rate of release that the "codex's" provide is insufficient for most people who are in the hobby to play the game.

It does not take 6 Months to write the rules for an army, at least not to the standard that the current lists are written. And honestly GW should be publishing rules for armies at a much higher rate. If you think it takes 6 months or more to write the rules for an army you're bonkers. If they did take that long to write the rules you wouldn't see things like Assault Cannons, Holofields, Veil of Tears, or Godzilla type armies.

The fact that the rules update for an army is irrevocably tied to a large "model release" is based on the fact that GW is trying to maximize profit. People who play an army need the new rules, and the new rules drive new model sales in a large way.

This is something that is good for GW, but sucks for us fans, or at least us fans who are stuck with an underperforming army (read: Orks).

The fact that it DOESN'T take 6 Months to write the rules for an army is best shown in the rumor that the Blood Angels will receive a rules update in White Dwarf. Honestly stuff like this should happen much more often.

Bookwrak
21-03-2007, 13:32
It just does my head in that they take so long between the actual books - I don't mind the rate at which they release miniatures at all.

I think they should adopt (in all seriousness) a new strategy of getting all the Codices and rulebooks written in one go, balanced and tested all together so there is nothing 'broken' or 'unbalanced' ANYWHERE in the system, this would make for a much better game overall. They would have an epic launch for fifth edition if they did this, where everybody can get the rules they want/need with no waiting around and more importantly no hangups/errors/unbalances from the previous editions permiating through.

Why can't you understand just how absolutely TERRIBLE of an idea this is? For one thing it'd push back the new edition release by years as they got all of this stuff written, and brought together. Note that GW didn't even release all the codexes in one go in the massive changeover from 2nd to 3rd, when it would've made 'sense' to attempt something like that, because it would've taken too long to get them all ready to go. Also, even at the current 'slow' rate of release, you've seen how many errors still pop-up. Multiply the amount of material by what, 12-15 times and see how things work then. It's not going to be better, and there's going to be the additional deadline burden of nothing new is happening to their market while the entire system is being brought online at once, so the faster they get them out, the better.

By doing staggered releases, aside from not burning everyone out by having a single deadline for _everything_ you can have a cycle where you push the army for the upcoming codex, building up the to actual release, and then repeat the process for the next one. This keeps things churning, generating various facets of fan interest (just take a look in the Rumors forum) and keeps the market cycling. If everything was released at once, what exactly would everyone be doing in between editions? Things would stagnate, because there would be no supply of fresh news and ideas, no real reason to speculate about what's coming five years or so down the line, and certainly no facts or developments to keep things fueled. The current system keep things fresh. People hear rumors about the new Dark Angels, discuss them, thin out the rumors as new facts are released, and then the codex is released and people talk about the actual contents. This is not a process that would last stretched across half a decade. The Apocalypse rumors have been running for a while, but after two years, what would people have to say that hadn't already been hashed out?

Codexes sell models. It's pretty hard to argue against this. A new Codex is released, and people who've gotten interested into the leading hype get a start with the army, veterans take a look at the changes made and buy new models for units that they didn't use before, or people upgrade models that have been released with a new appearance (I mean man, the current HT & and carnifexes...). I play IG, Necrons, Tyranids, WH, and SM armies. I also only have so much money to spend on the hobby. When Tyranids came out, I could buy a couple of them, build them, paint them, and not have to make any difficult decisions about which models I really wanted. So I had plenty of hobby money squirreled away when the new Devastators were released, and I decided I really wanted some of those. If _everything_ came out all at once, my spending opportunities ability be much more limited. Unlike spreading all my purchases across a period or months or years, I don't have the money to buy everything all at once, and there's no built in 'downtime' as when things are staggered. I'd finish updating one army, and with that out of the way would be inclined to move onto the next, right up until the point of burnout.

Finally, what are the designers supposed to do until the release of 6th Edition? They have no idea how all the new rules are going to be received. There has been no constant level of feedback about how the new edition is shaping up, and how all the changes have been received, and what is working, and what might need fixing by mid-edition tweaks. Everything is out there, just kind of sitting there in one big steaming pile.

tl:dr - You just have to understand that releasing everything at once is a horrible idea both from a business and a hobby perspective, and there's really no way to argue against that.

trigger
21-03-2007, 15:16
at the end of the day no one wants to wait 6 months from a collectors point of view, the thing is its not just the codex we wait 4
its the new modles that come with it
take marines, the templars and angels have both come with sprues full of great kit
the only problem that springs to mind is they had a similar system 4 second ed by the time they got the last codex out the were already wrighting the new rules
as long as your codex dont come last your fine
yes it may be the best but the down side is people dont let you forget it ether..,.:evilgrin:

golembane
21-03-2007, 17:04
Working for Intel, I can pretty much say what you would think could get done in a matter of a few weeks takes a LONG time.

Theres meetings to attend to update everyone on status, and these can take a decent chunk of the day depending on the topic at hand. Quality control is a needed and things have to slow down while various molds and are even dreamed of. Theres large models that get sculpted first, and if that doesn't cut it, then re-sculpted(remember what was supposed to have been the new Avatar, finally GW canned the project entirely, how much time in working on those various designs were wasted?). Once the company is happy with that then the shrink process can start where the large model can be turned into the proper 25mm or whatever range mini it needs.

Meanwhile you still have the rules being written, and those people have to have meetings with the sculptors, who have meetings with the fluff writers.

Then once a basic idea is laid out testing phase, which isn't merely 3 games and call it good. more like 5-10 games for each army, with a meeting after EACH game to discuss outcome and various points.

With each tweak requires additional game to verify tweak didn't overpower or underpower that option(ie: the assault cannon, while it is a deadly weapon, the items that cargo it are usually fragile, slow, or both of the above).

All this while in another room, those in charge of WFB is doing the same thing with a new Armies book of theirs.

Also keep in mind that Unlike Intel or AMD or other large companies, GW probably doesn't keep it's people on staff 24/7 and thus while it takes chip makes about 3 months to get one wafer out the door, someone working half the time, with far less automation, 6 month to a year sounds about right.

THE CHIEF
21-03-2007, 17:31
I honestly don't think writing a rules set that works as a whole and releasing it as a whole is such a 'terrible idea'. Sure the way things are now works for GW, but they cause too many headaches with us gamers who just want a game that runs smoothly. I merely suggested a remedy to this situation.

I work in design, so I am pretty familiar with the workings behind the scenes. I NEVER suggested releasing all the models in one go - the release schedule would remain entirely unchanged as far as models are concerned. I just think something better could be done as far as the releases of the rules are concerned.

GW obviously will never do this in a million years and I have no illusions about it either. The way they are doing things at the moment works for them. The problem is that their way of working has backed them into a corner they will likely never be able to get out of unless they start thinking about radically changing things. Do you seriously think GW will survive edition after edition of 40k and Warhammer doing the same tired thing of 'new codex, new army...wait a few months...new codex, new army...new edition, new codex........' etc? Things need to move on and evolve to survive, thats all.

AlphaLegion
21-03-2007, 19:17
They need to sell there codex with new sets of models and such, time to take approve and re writing. Then it takes time to get enuff copies for there players thats alot. Those are some reason it may take so long

Marinox
21-03-2007, 19:54
the only limitation GW has is on how fast it WANTS to produce models. i don't buy for a second that it takes 5 years to write a codex and put out an army release.

look at other games out there. M:tG releases what like 3-4 new sets a year?

white wolf & TSR (now wizards of the coast) put out a new 100 page book every couple of months.

and i'm not saying i want warhammer to be as fast paced as magic. but waiting close to 10 years for new models is obnoxious. so don't gimme GW CAN'T do it. GW WON'T do it. and they get away with it, because they're the only dog on the porch.

leonmallett
21-03-2007, 19:59
the only limitation GW has is on how fast it WANTS to produce models. i don't buy for a second that it takes 5 years to write a codex and put out an army release.

look at other games out there. M:tG releases what like 3-4 new sets a year?

white wolf & TSR (now wizards of the coast) put out a new 100 page book every couple of months.

and i'm not saying i want warhammer to be as fast paced as magic. but waiting close to 10 years for new models is obnoxious. so don't gimme GW CAN'T do it. GW WON'T do it. and they get away with it, because they're the only dog on the porch.


No it doesn't take 5 years to produce, in fact far less. But to maintain year to year turnover new releases/re-releases are always required, therefore the staggered release approach.

Bookwrak
21-03-2007, 20:00
Do you seriously think GW will survive edition after edition of 40k and Warhammer doing the same tired thing of 'new codex, new army...wait a few months...new codex, new army...new edition, new codex........' etc?

Yes.

If something isn't broken, don't try and fix it, and if you want to try and convince us otherwise, you're going to have to attempt to answer the issues I raised in my previous post. How do you maintain interest if you release everything at once, making it impossible to hype a certain type of army leading up to it's release? Or you've released the rules, which include new models, but because you've done everything all at once, it's going to take you months to actually get around to making those models?

What your saying is completely unworkable from both a hobby and business prespective. They're using the current system because it works, and it works well.

Templar Ben
21-03-2007, 20:31
One thing I would like to see if when 5th edition comes out a series of upgrades for the 4th edition Codex for each army. The current system of FAQ are not what I mean. I mean like an errata saying that one should change the wording on page 13 to "..." and on page 15 to "..." and so forth. Then you have all armies together and you can still have the build up and rerelease of the 5th edition codex with the pomp and circumstance normally associated with such.

Ian Argent
21-03-2007, 20:53
GW is a company that sells miniatures. One of the incentives that they offer buyers of these miniatures is that they can be used to play a game. If you look at GWs behavior from that point of view, much that is inexplicable if you view things from the gamer pov is explained.

BrainFireBob
21-03-2007, 21:22
People are forgetting that GW does not make money on their rulebooks and codices. Only model sales drive profits.

Arhalien
21-03-2007, 21:24
People are forgetting that GW does not make money on their rulebooks and codices. Only model sales drive profits.

And the release of a new codex is a perfect way to get people to buy the new models thaat are released with it.

Midknightwraith
21-03-2007, 21:24
Question. How do we "know" GW doesn't write all the rules at once and then spend the time between releases working on the models and codex layout and such?

And that begs the further question of why not write a book of just rules/army lists and release that for about the cost of the main book at the start of a new edition. Battle of McCragge sold quite well in my area because of the mini rulebook alone. The main book is more than just rules, and the codex's are more than just the army lists. In fact that is how 3rd started with basic lists for each army in the main book. We don't need pictures every other page of models. The reason GW will never do this is because then codex sales will go down and they won't make any money off of them. They force players to buy those new books and charge plenty in the process so that they make money on them. The reason GW is loosing money right now is because their business model doesn't work. It looks good on paper and even makes some sense. However, the reality is that most people have 2-4 armies of the 10 basic factions in the game, and eventually they get saturated and don't need to buy many new models. They have what they want. GW makes some money on a new rulebook and maybe a codex here and there.

The learning curve/start up cost for a new player is enormous compared to a lot of other games. A basic 500 pt army costs about $100, plus main book at $50 plus codex at $20, to play a decent sized force your probably talking close to $400 bucks, plus you have to take the time to paint your own pieces. Something many people don't have the time or patience for and to get them done by somebody else is like what $25 a unit x8-9 units or another $200 on the cheap end quality will cost you twice that. Do this every 6 mo and that is $1600 a year min. Card Gamers don't spend that keeping current and start up is generally about $20-$30. Role playing games maybe $100-$200 and your done. Not to mention the plethora of one shot games out there. Even expensive ones (Uber Collectors edition Settlers anyone) cost only a few $100. Most of which are just as entertaining. Heck I played a regular card game (Lightening Africa, I think it was called) a while back that I must say just rocks. Cost $25, and I got more enjoyment out of that than my last game of 40k, and it was much faster.

And there is the crux of the problem, and others have pointed it out. Something I like to call cost to weight ratio. GW has an old game that they have retreaded 4 times now. It is not a bad game as those things go, but it is too expensive. I don't know if commoditizing the market is the answer, but they certainly could bring prices down if they made/sold their stuff for less. They aren't doing themselves any favors continuing this trend. It reminds me of the guy who puts his fingers in his ears trying to ignore the bomb dropping on his head.

FarseerUshanti
21-03-2007, 21:31
Two of the reaosns it takes so long for some codexes to get updated are simple. For codexes that don't have a new edition for 8 years or so, there are only X number of game developers on staff. They have Y number of codexes they have to produce before the next edition of the system comes out. The past 8 years have not been spent on Orks, but rather on other codexes. Although some early work may start 2 years in advance such as concept work, the nit and grit of a codex at the earliest would start a year ahead of the planned release date.

Also to think you could do a codex in a week is a joke, at least for a codex such as Orks. Playtesting alone takes several months. This is because although there are at least 10 armies with their own codex. Within each codex, there are several possible armies such as with codex, plus the hundred of variants of lists in an amry, it takes a long time. This plus the fact there are a multitude of missions that can be played all equal into a long time of playtesting, then revisions of the playtest list based on that information, after this the playtesting starts all over again and repeats it self until the codex is good in the designer's eyes

leonmallett
21-03-2007, 21:36
Two of the reaosns it takes so long for some codexes to get updated are simple. For codexes that don't have a new edition for 8 years or so, there are only X number of game developers on staff. They have Y number of codexes they have to produce before the next edition of the system comes out. The past 8 years have not been spent on Orks, but rather on other codexes. Although some early work may start 2 years in advance such as concept work, the nit and grit of a codex at the earliest would start a year ahead of the planned release date.

Also to think you could do a codex in a week is a joke, at least for a codex such as Orks. Playtesting alone takes several months. This is because although there are at least 10 armies with their own codex. Within each codex, there are several possible armies such as with codex, plus the hundred of variants of lists in an amry, it takes a long time. This plus the fact there are a multitude of missions that can be played all equal into a long time of playtesting, then revisions of the playtest list based on that information, after this the playtesting starts all over again and repeats it self until the codex is good in the designer's eyes


And not all play testing is done in-studio is it? Or I may be wrong. If (as I understand it) some is done outside by a trusted few, then this will add to time taken whilst improving balance as the studio approach to armies is probably not replicated outside of that environment).

FarseerUshanti
21-03-2007, 21:56
ALthough I can't claim to know for certain, I believe that is what happens, becuase it is often how leaks that don't come from GW dev staff come about, becuase these playtesters have a playtest copy of the possible codex, which some people have claimed to see for the impending Apocalypse release. This would also be a beneficial idea because all players compile army lists in different ways and have different playstyles for armies which would allow armies to be balanced agianst different playstyles and lists to an optimum effect

midget overlord
21-03-2007, 22:10
To be honest, I think the rate of release is ok (2 to 3 a year) The only thing I would change would be order of release (I don't play orks, but man, do these guys need an update!)

The way I see it, things will actually get worse if they keep coming up with new armies, but keep the same pace of writing the books. Could you imagine if we had 13 armies like fantasy? (maybe more, and chaos dwarves, plus all the optional lists ou there...)
the way they are doing'em now gives me the impression that they are back on track, no more half-codices, the return of the beloved fluff, a book that takes more than 5 minutes to go through (I read the blood angels codex during my break this morning, and unlike my eldar codex, i don't feel like going through it again)

I can see it taking more than 6 months to make sure things are done correctly, as i'm shure thats how they did the last couple od dexes (just look at the wraithlord box, the slottabase for Yriel, and a couple of others in the new range, says GW 2005 on them, codex came out november 2006, i doubt that they made a wraithlord holding a sword
without playtesting first...)

then again, what the hell do i know anyways?

FarseerUshanti
21-03-2007, 22:15
Well in terms of codexes, I think we are close to Fantasy
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Black Templars
Bllood Angels
Space Wolves
Imperial Guard
Inquisition
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Tau Empire
TYranids
Orks
Chaos Space Marines

Now I know all hte Space Marines are one race, but each of those constitutes one slot on the codex release schedule. That said, I believe the order of codexes are messed up, although at least orks are within the next year.

midget overlord
21-03-2007, 22:25
well, you got me there, and you even put all the inquisition in one slot... but marines do take mucho space, we are in the dark angel release, and what's next? blood angel mini-dex in white dwarf, but i'm not going to complain, rules in the white dwarf is indeed something that has been missed...

Sildani
21-03-2007, 22:48
Aye. I miss Chapter Approved.

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 03:34
It isn't just about profit, it also has to be about sufficient quality - insufficent quality and people won't buy.

Champsguy - a week?!? I am sorry you are deluded. There or four test games? Again the vagaries of rules interactions and chance would make that seem unlikely. Fluff? There has been quite a bit in recent codices. The rules aren't written and then models made, the approach is more synergistic going from a conceptual stage of looking at design ethos, some 'cultural' reference for the army in question and then slowly assembling the list. Which then gets revised, and revised, and no doubt revised more. Have you done an academic course? How long does it take to work on an essay at just say 3000 words? In my experience you gather your reference materials, do your research or wider reading, plan, write, re-write and revise, repeating that latter stage until those involved (which in GW's case is many) are happy, all taking considerable time. The word count on a codex? More than a few thousand I'd guess. We could all probably churn out a list of rules with no fluff in no time (a week you suggest), however it doesn't mean that approach would be any good.

Yeah, you could say I've done a bit of academic work. ;)

I've written on subjects that are a lot longer than 3000 words, that required loads of research. And I did it in a couple of days. I did a 30 page appellate brief to the state Supreme Court and it took me a week. That's something you don't want to screw up on. I'd have been happy if I could have just used a few quotes out of an old White Dwarf, maybe a page from a Black Library book, and then made up the rest. That would have been nice.

At most, you've got a day or two of fluff writing in there. Most of the actual words in the army lists are just "X unit may take frag grenades for +x points per model." Not hard. Cut and paste. Seriously, you could assemble a codex in Microsoft Word or Adobe Acrobat in like an hour, as long as you had some jpgs and text blocks ready to go.

Again, you don't need to do much playtesting unless it's a new army. You think Codex: Space Marines needed it? What did they change? The Assault Cannon? That's about it, other than giving a few more options over 3rd Ed. Eldar? Oh, they included the Autarch, put fusion guns back up to Str 8, and gave the Wraithlord a few more options. Woo-hoo. And remember, it's not like GW has done a flawless job of rules construction. If they spent sooo much time playtesting it, surely we wouldn't have all these problems, like how Shadow in the Warp for the Tyranids interacts with those Eldar runestone thingies.

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 03:53
They tried this last year/two years ago with Macragge. Didn't pan out.

Oh, they tried it for a whole year or two? :rolleyes:

They need to do if for like 5 to 10 years. And it needs to be in big stores. I never EVER saw it anywhere except the local game store. I never saw it in Toys R Us at Christmas. That's what they've got to do.

They also need to do it bigger and cheaper than Battle for Macragge. It needs to be like $35, include a landspeeder and a 20 space marines, and maybe a razorback. Then for the 'nids, it'd have 10 genestealers, 20 hormagaunts, and a mini-plastic hive tyrant. Everything pre-molded, maybe the Hive Tyrant with snap-on arms. Man, I'd buy 3 or 4 of the sets. Include a super-basic set of paints as well (the kind you can buy for a dollar). You'd sell those things like hotcakes. Have good, basic molds. You don't need to include all the biomorphs. You're wanting to get people hooked. The plastic? That doesn't cost anything. Plastic is virtually free. Use pre-existing molds, so you don't even have to pay for those. It's the only way that GW is going to get away from gouging their customers.

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 04:06
Also to think you could do a codex in a week is a joke, at least for a codex such as Orks. Playtesting alone takes several months. This is because although there are at least 10 armies with their own codex. Within each codex, there are several possible armies such as with codex, plus the hundred of variants of lists in an amry, it takes a long time. This plus the fact there are a multitude of missions that can be played all equal into a long time of playtesting, then revisions of the playtest list based on that information, after this the playtesting starts all over again and repeats it self until the codex is good in the designer's eyes

Variations within an army don't matter. It's very simple. You can "playtest" a codex by just asking yourself like 10 questions and using some Math-Hammer. I'll tell you one thing, even doing that would have told them that half the Dark Eldar model range were complete crap.

Then you do a few games to test it out and make sure it works in practice like it does on paper.

1. How does this army do vs 3+ armor saves? Does it have enough low-AP weapons or does it do it through massed shots?
2. How does this army destroy tanks? Does it need more? Are the weapons it has only good against light vehicles?
3. How does this army handle leadership tests?
4. How does this army handle power weapons? Are we like the Eldar, where everyone can get an invulnerable, or like the nids, where we have so many it doesn't matter?
5. How mobile is this army? Can we get across the field and make it into hand to hand? Or do we have to walk?
6. How durable is this army? Do I die to bolters? Or does it take krak missiles?
7. How do I perform against hordes? Can I kill enough light models with this, or do I need something else?
8. How am I in hand to hand? Is there any unit that will just destroy me. Should it?
9. What is this army's purpose? What should it be GOOD at? Is there anything preventing it from doing this? Does it need a boost in a stat on a unit or two in order to achieve that purpose?
10. Is this army too strong in an area? Are my fire warriors beating genestealers in hth? Is there any stat that needs lowered in order to make them fit the fluff?

Answer those questions to get an idea of the army.

Prices? Compare to the previous editions and other codexes in the current editions. No amount of playtesting will ever tell you if a model should be 17 points or 18 points. That's a judgment call.

Lancaster
22-03-2007, 06:42
Oh, they tried it for a whole year or two? :rolleyes:

They need to do if for like 5 to 10 years. And it needs to be in big stores. I never EVER saw it anywhere except the local game store. I never saw it in Toys R Us at Christmas. That's what they've got to do.

They also need to do it bigger and cheaper than Battle for Macragge. It needs to be like $35, include a landspeeder and a 20 space marines, and maybe a razorback. Then for the 'nids, it'd have 10 genestealers, 20 hormagaunts, and a mini-plastic hive tyrant. Everything pre-molded, maybe the Hive Tyrant with snap-on arms. Man, I'd buy 3 or 4 of the sets. Include a super-basic set of paints as well (the kind you can buy for a dollar). You'd sell those things like hotcakes. Have good, basic molds. You don't need to include all the biomorphs. You're wanting to get people hooked. The plastic? That doesn't cost anything. Plastic is virtually free. Use pre-existing molds, so you don't even have to pay for those. It's the only way that GW is going to get away from gouging their customers.

I think there's too many models in that...

I think if you had even more basic you'd be on to sthg

maybe 3 snap together marines (the kind in the paint box or w/e) with a flamer and a bazooka guy (also snap together) and some form of snap together seargent

On the Tyranid side a min snap together squad of Genestealers and a min snap together squad of Termagaunts to give some shooting

and a peice of plastic terrain

A special tiny paint set that would give them just enough paints to do them all, and that's it

All of that for $45, less than a box size of marines, genestealers, and gaunts

And of course throw in a TON of advertising, profiles for each army, a couple short stories, a map of the universe, etc, etc the stuff to get kids hooked

that would be more reasonable (albeit less value) than the idea you put forth (which by the way is right on, just a little too big in the loss department)

Drasriath
22-03-2007, 06:55
Nope, I agree completely inspite the negativity in regards to your post. New 'dexes shouldn't take six months or so to write. It's insane. Given the codecies from last edition, all you need to do is tweak this, tweak that, perhaps add a few new things, playtest for perhaps a month, edit and you're done.

There is not the faintest chance it should take as long as it does for them to write a simple army book or codex, even with plenty of balance testing and the like, and frankly, they come out with so many erratas and leave open so many cheesy exploits, it seems like they took only about a month actually writing their codecies.

Just my two cents.

Lancaster
22-03-2007, 06:59
Nope, I agree completely inspite the negativity in regards to your post. New 'dexes shouldn't take six months or so to write. It's insane. Given the codecies from last edition, all you need to do is tweak this, tweak that, perhaps add a few new things, playtest for perhaps a month, edit and you're done.

There is not the faintest chance it should take as long as it does for them to write a simple army book or codex, even with plenty of balance testing and the like, and frankly, they come out with so many erratas and leave open so many cheesy exploits, it seems like they took only about a month actually writing their codecies.

Just my two cents.

I'd be interested to see what you have to say about the co-releasing of the new models and the time it takes to make them, as well as setting up the means to produce them.

We all realise it doesn't take 6 months to write a book like a codex, but what your post fails to address is the modelling and business aspect of the 6 months

EDIT: That sounded 200% more snarky than I meant it too, please don't be offended :)

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 07:19
I think there's too many models in that...

I think if you had even more basic you'd be on to sthg

maybe 3 snap together marines (the kind in the paint box or w/e) with a flamer and a bazooka guy (also snap together) and some form of snap together seargent

On the Tyranid side a min snap together squad of Genestealers and a min snap together squad of Termagaunts to give some shooting

and a peice of plastic terrain

A special tiny paint set that would give them just enough paints to do them all, and that's it

All of that for $45, less than a box size of marines, genestealers, and gaunts

And of course throw in a TON of advertising, profiles for each army, a couple short stories, a map of the universe, etc, etc the stuff to get kids hooked

that would be more reasonable (albeit less value) than the idea you put forth (which by the way is right on, just a little too big in the loss department)

They're not really losing money, though.

Think about this. If you had never played miniature games before, and you looked at a game like this in the store, what would you think? 45 bucks for like 20 plastic snap-together toys and a lump of plastic terrain? I think I'll pass. You actually want to sell this stuff, you know. For $45, I can get an X-Box 360 game. Tony Hawk 17, or something. The intro set you just described should be like ten bucks.

GW is too expensive as it is. But we pay it because it's a rare hobby, so we pay a premium. If you go mainstream, the prices plummet. They pay maybe fifty cents for the actual plastic that makes a squad of Space Marines. It's the other operating costs that eat them alive. You're judging the "value" of the boxed set on the current cost of GW miniatures. But currently, they're dramatically overpriced. The cost should drop with mass production. To get new blood, they need to give actual good deals, not just GW good deals.

Scythe
22-03-2007, 10:30
Oh, they tried it for a whole year or two? :rolleyes:

They need to do if for like 5 to 10 years. And it needs to be in big stores. I never EVER saw it anywhere except the local game store. I never saw it in Toys R Us at Christmas. That's what they've got to do.

They also need to do it bigger and cheaper than Battle for Macragge. It needs to be like $35, include a landspeeder and a 20 space marines, and maybe a razorback. Then for the 'nids, it'd have 10 genestealers, 20 hormagaunts, and a mini-plastic hive tyrant. Everything pre-molded, maybe the Hive Tyrant with snap-on arms. Man, I'd buy 3 or 4 of the sets. Include a super-basic set of paints as well (the kind you can buy for a dollar). You'd sell those things like hotcakes. Have good, basic molds. You don't need to include all the biomorphs. You're wanting to get people hooked. The plastic? That doesn't cost anything. Plastic is virtually free. Use pre-existing molds, so you don't even have to pay for those. It's the only way that GW is going to get away from gouging their customers.

A lot like Battle for Skull Pass for fantasy was then? I don't know the exact figures, but from the response I have seen in stores and on the net, I say that approach was a success. At least a lot of those boxes were sold. Wether it actually hooks people, I am not sure.

Templar Ben
22-03-2007, 14:42
Well if I were going to Wally World and I saw I could get the Battle for Macragge for $45. Then I have to paint all the guys up and glue them together. I also need to do the same with the terrain.

Or right next to it is HeroScape for $39.96. The figures are all painted and each expansion will be $20.00. In the expansions, again the terrain and figures are assembled and painted. It is hard to go head to head against that on the shelf.

I am not saying we should all go play HS I am saying that when no one is there to explain why you should play the game that requires you to do all the work of painting then it does not look as good by comparison. In fact the Wal Mart stocker may just stick it over with the models if it is something that needs to be painted and glued.

I would like to see some sort of tie in with Dawn of War to the tabletop game.

Derling
22-03-2007, 15:25
Sorry about the forum. I'm on my work computer, it's not very good at all, so I posted by mistake.

I have always assumed that the time consuming part was playtesting and model sculpting...but then again I wonder who long can it really take when you have a squad of pro sculptors, designers, and such...who get paid and equipped each day to go in and do just that....?

When you end up writing whole books where the misuse of a single word in a rule has terrible implications for the game, some of them seemingly invisible until it's too late... I think 6 months is hardly enough time for a codex release.

Even in the public spectrum, it took a year and a half before the Rhino Rush came to true form, Demon Bombs to similar amount of time to perfect to it's cheesiest. And that's with thousands of people looking at the rules.

Never think that just because it's a relatively simple wargame that it doesn't take LOTS of work just to make it as good as it is...without a grid system, the felt covered battlefield just has too many abstracts to be as easy as theoryhammer.

FarseerUshanti
22-03-2007, 15:27
The problem with using mathhammer is that we all know that probability is anything but set in stone. Also if you don't playtest using different tactics, you will not know the true potency of an army. WHen they were doing the Eldar codex, if they only used players who choose Dire Avengers for troops and Harlequins for elites, they would get a very good idea of how balanced these units would be, but would not know how balanced the army owuld be with other units. Using different players allows the developers to see how someone could create an overpowering army list from the playtest version. The developers can then work on tweaking the list slightly. And those questions may answer how the army should paly, but you have to use a variety of players across a broad spectrum of tactics to actually see if the army stands up the ideas of the developer.

golembane
22-03-2007, 16:34
The price hikes aren't directly related to WH40k and WFB being 'rare' hobbies. The models use oils for molding, creation, and other various points, and oil costs are on the rise. Rising price to create items, means rising cost to sell items.

Warhammer plastic mini's are of superb quality(Hard plastic that is open to conversions, cleans up well, doesn't break or warp to easily, ect) when compared to that of heroscape and warmachine which is soft plastic that warps in the heat much faster, can't do much conversions on, and generally only as clean as the machine that cleaned them off did.

If you want them to price the mini's cheaper then the minis will have to have been made cheaper. You're paying for quality.

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 16:46
The price hikes aren't directly related to WH40k and WFB being 'rare' hobbies. The models use oils for molding, creation, and other various points, and oil costs are on the rise. Rising price to create items, means rising cost to sell items.

Warhammer plastic mini's are of superb quality(Hard plastic that is open to conversions, cleans up well, doesn't break or warp to easily, ect) when compared to that of heroscape and warmachine which is soft plastic that warps in the heat much faster, can't do much conversions on, and generally only as clean as the machine that cleaned them off did.

If you want them to price the mini's cheaper then the minis will have to have been made cheaper. You're paying for quality.

Oil ain't that expensive, and the plastic they use is still cheap. You're paying for rarity and because GW has a near-monopoly, not materials.

Eldartank
22-03-2007, 16:59
Based on the layout of the Eldar codex, I wonder if maybe they should have taken more time, at least for editing. The Eldar codex, while having decent rules and fluff, is VERY POORLY laid out. They have bits of rules for units buried in the fluff entry for that unit, and incomplete rules for that unit in the actual army list entry. To get the entire set of rules for a particular unit, you have to flip back and forth between fluff entry and army list entry, and pore through the fluff entry to dig out those parts of the rules buried within.

I think they did a fine job rules-wise with the Eldar codex, it's just that the layout of the book itself is positively horrible.

gitburna
22-03-2007, 17:09
Man, this whole thread just makes me want to scream.
Yeah, i can toss off Codex Men in a week! Yeah, course you can and it'll be really well balanced against a whole range of different army types :rolleyes: , but wheres the artwork, the minatures, the stories, wheres the variety [Codex Necrons], wheres the pictures of the models which im going to use [master of ravenwing] . The codex is there to sell the miniatures, not the other way around. The codex might be workable as a load of text but why buy it when i dont know what the models are going to look like. GW have tried the "release everything as soon as possible" approach [3rd edition where the quality was below what we and GW have come to expect, specialist games where sales die off soon after the initial boom]
And what happens as soon as you release the codex without the models to back it up then ? Its purely a book saying how to play "Codex Men". I have no idea if im going to want to play them because i dont know what they look like. 6 months later i might know what the heavy support choice looks like, and it doesnt interest me, bugger, i was hoping that was going to be a really good i dont want to buy that minature range now.

WAAAGH WAAGH WAAGHH why havent GW released a waveserpent yet, where is my new this , i want my new that.

The codexes are there as a cool way to get people to buy new models and not as rules in and of themselves.

gitburna
22-03-2007, 17:18
The price hikes aren't directly related to WH40k and WFB being 'rare' hobbies. The models use oils for molding, creation, and other various points, and oil costs are on the rise. Rising price to create items, means rising cost to sell items.


Theres also Inflation.

a computer game in the 80s cost what, 5, 10. I know that there was a 1.99 range for the commodore 64 which had some really cool games in it.

How much do you pay for a new game nowadays ? 25, 30 quid, or more if its a big release or on different platforms.

I'm not so old i can remember pre-decimalisation, but i can still remember 1/2 penny coins and 1 notes.

I pay nearly 5 for a snack from Burger King for gods sake. How long is that going to last me, 4 hours total, 10 minutes to eat?

GW is on the whole a good price for a good product, that i *want* to get.
I wouldnt have nearly 20 seperate army/gang/fleet collections if i didnt keep wanting to go back for more, and people coming along preaching pseudo economics and pseudo games design on here seem more interested in a short term fix.

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 17:37
Theres also Inflation.

a computer game in the 80s cost what, 5, 10. I know that there was a 1.99 range for the commodore 64 which had some really cool games in it.

How much do you pay for a new game nowadays ? 25, 30 quid, or more if its a big release or on different platforms.

I'm not so old i can remember pre-decimalisation, but i can still remember 1/2 penny coins and 1 notes.

I pay nearly 5 for a snack from Burger King for gods sake. How long is that going to last me, 4 hours total, 10 minutes to eat?

GW is on the whole a good price for a good product, that i *want* to get.
I wouldnt have nearly 20 seperate army/gang/fleet collections if i didnt keep wanting to go back for more, and people coming along preaching pseudo economics and pseudo games design on here seem more interested in a short term fix.

I don't know about England, but a computer game in the US during the 80s was comparable price-wise to what it is now. I remember paying $40 for Nintendo games back then. The Atari 2600 started out selling for $300. I can get a Nintendo Wii and an extra game for that price (you know, if I could find one on the shelves).

Seriously, these are plastic miniatures. If you double the cost of plastic, you're still paying next to nothing. Cost isn't based on materials. Prices are high because that's the way their business plan works. They don't have to be.

--

Short term fix? Merely pointing out that if these guys wanted to run GW like a real business, they could produce product much faster and at a lower cost. The fact is, they should have been working on this stuff for a long time. They should have had preliminary rules available with the release of 4th Ed. They should have had models designed and ready to go. They run this company like a hobby, and it shows.

Templar Ben
22-03-2007, 17:50
The cost for the pellets is about 1400 euro per ton.

GavT
22-03-2007, 18:28
So day 1, you have a morning brainstorming session, getting several people to toss in ideas. In the afternoon, you write up a quick outline of what you want the army to look like, including special rules that apply to the entire army, special organization charts, or any big important units that affect the way the army will play (like SM Tactical Squads). Day 2, you hash out some more quick rules for units in the morning and play them using a hodge-podge of the current codex and your new rules in the afternoon. Day 3, repeat. Modify the costs on any units that seem too powerful or too weak. Day 4, write some fluff and unit descriptions. Day 5, proofread and double-check points costs. Done.

:eyebrows: :rolleyes:

Now all you have to do is plan the book, plan the miniatures range, design the models, get the art brief agreed, get the artwork painted, get the models sculpted, get the models produced, get the models painted, get the text typeset, get the graphics produced, get the art put in place, get the graphics put in place, get the models photographed, get the photographs in place, get the text edited, get the layout checked, create the contents list, create the reference page, get all of the final text translated into 5 different languages, get the reprographics completed on all of these versions ready for printing, get the six different books printed and distributed (to the US, OZ, and all over Europe, don't air freight it because that costs a mint), get the models manufactured, get the packaging designed, get the packaging photographs briefed, get the photographs taken, do the reprographics on the packaging, get the packaging printed and then delivered ready for packing, get the models picked and packed, get the models distributed, get the sales staff to tell their accounts to order the models, send the models to the sales people, create the White Dwarf support (including painted models, photos, etc), create the website support. Need I go on? And that's being simplistic and not even worrying about any actual testing or changes that may occur.

I'll part with another :rolleyes:

Cheers,

GAV :angel:

AndyH
22-03-2007, 18:34
Per book Gav! (we're working on at least three at any one time...)

Andy

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 19:37
:eyebrows: :rolleyes:

Now all you have to do is plan the book, plan the miniatures range, design the models, get the art brief agreed, get the artwork painted, get the models sculpted, get the models produced, get the models painted, get the text typeset, get the graphics produced, get the art put in place, get the graphics put in place, get the models photographed, get the photographs in place, get the text edited, get the layout checked, create the contents list, create the reference page, get all of the final text translated into 5 different languages, get the reprographics completed on all of these versions ready for printing, get the six different books printed and distributed (to the US, OZ, and all over Europe, don't air freight it because that costs a mint), get the models manufactured, get the packaging designed, get the packaging photographs briefed, get the photographs taken, do the reprographics on the packaging, get the packaging printed and then delivered ready for packing, get the models picked and packed, get the models distributed, get the sales staff to tell their accounts to order the models, send the models to the sales people, create the White Dwarf support (including painted models, photos, etc), create the website support. Need I go on? And that's being simplistic and not even worrying about any actual testing or changes that may occur.

I'll part with another :rolleyes:

Cheers,

GAV :angel:


And how much of that has to do with WRITING the codex, which is what I was talking about?

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 19:37
Per book Gav! (we're working on at least three at any one time...)

Andy

So... which three are you working on now? :cool:

Marked_by_chaos
22-03-2007, 20:13
I think the biggest factor in timing of the codexes is how it fits into the release schedule for commercial reasons. I am sure GW could bang out 3 codexes a year for both Fantasy and 40k but they'd only be redone 2 years later to make some more cash

Charax
22-03-2007, 20:20
And how much of that has to do with WRITING the codex, which is what I was talking about?

You know, by reading the list and ignoring everything not connected to writing a codex even you should be able to answer that.

Champsguy
22-03-2007, 21:21
You know, by reading the list and ignoring everything not connected to writing a codex even you should be able to answer that.

You know, I see a lot of stuff related to models. The only thing I see related to writing is "have it translated", "do the table of contents" and "cut and paste everything into the document".

I'm sure GW keeps them busy. It is a job. But again, writing a codex, especially when there aren't big changes from 3rd, not that hard.

Bookwrak
22-03-2007, 21:49
You know, I see a lot of stuff related to models. The only thing I see related to writing is "have it translated", "do the table of contents" and "cut and paste everything into the document".

I'm sure GW keeps them busy. It is a job. But again, writing a codex, especially when there aren't big changes from 3rd, not that hard.

If you'd been reading what people have been posting, you'd know it is. You can't just spew words out of a keyboard for a week and have any sort of usable document at the end.

FarseerUshanti
22-03-2007, 22:08
The thing is though, if you just focus on the content of the codex itself, and not worry about art, graphics, layout, and models and such, You are still looking at a decent amount of time. maybe not the 6 months to a year they currently spend on everything, but it would at least be a month or two because of the extensive playtesting GW does. And yes they do need extensive playtesting to owrk out bugs, I compare it to how they test video games. You have to play through every conveiable setting in both single player and multiplayer, with a variety of number of players to get both network data, plus find all possible bugs in programming. You see what happens when they miss bugs, they release a patch, unfortunately GW doesn't have the luxury to do this so they must be extra cautious in terms of balance.

Also you factor the process of making models, which is inextricably linked to the codex writing process because GW likes to have pictures of the new models in the codex gallery, you are easily looking at a 6 - 12 month cycle. This allows GW to slow the pace of writing the actual codex, in addition to allowing them to do more playtesting, in order to create the best possible codex. ANd not releasing the models with the codex is not a good business decision becuase when I hold onto a codex for my army, I want the new models ASAP, not in 4 or 5 months

Brotherdraagor
22-03-2007, 22:20
You know, I see a lot of stuff related to models. The only thing I see related to writing is "have it translated", "do the table of contents" and "cut and paste everything into the document".

I'm sure GW keeps them busy. It is a job. But again, writing a codex, especially when there aren't big changes from 3rd, not that hard.

Have you, well, you know, considered that in the codecies of today models are somewhat integral? Maybe you would like a codex with absolutely no model shots whatsoever, but for those of us who actually like a little variety, they fit in with the creation of a codex just fine.

Why are you so deluded as to think that a codex can be pumped out in a few days? As a part time writer myself I know that conception of ideas alone can take days, Hell, even weeks to finalise. Then everything will have to be developed, improved, tried, tested, failed, withdrawn, reinstated, improved again and given the green light (which when you consider just how many variables have to be tested is an undertaking all of its own). And that's when you mind is only focusing on one task, how on earth they keep to their scheduel with three on the go at once, on top of a life, I don't know.

In the end, if you're so right about this perfect codex in a week business, then do it. You go off and make a balanced, interesting, relatively flawless codex suitable for world wide consumption in a week. You can have some friends help you if you like. Of course you'll have to find room for that Fantasy codex by Wednesday as well, but I'm sure you'll manage. Ah, and remember the Lord of the Rings supliment is due in tomorrow as well, yeah?

Until you can do it yourself, that's the contempt I'll give to 'a codex a week' arguments.

Ian Argent
23-03-2007, 00:11
Just as a note - my wife works as a copy editor in the RPG biz. Just copy editing a book as large as a codex is a several-week project. And it's not one that throwing more people at will help.

Champsguy
23-03-2007, 06:09
Have you, well, you know, considered that in the codecies of today models are somewhat integral? Maybe you would like a codex with absolutely no model shots whatsoever, but for those of us who actually like a little variety, they fit in with the creation of a codex just fine.

Why are you so deluded as to think that a codex can be pumped out in a few days? As a part time writer myself I know that conception of ideas alone can take days, Hell, even weeks to finalise. Then everything will have to be developed, improved, tried, tested, failed, withdrawn, reinstated, improved again and given the green light (which when you consider just how many variables have to be tested is an undertaking all of its own). And that's when you mind is only focusing on one task, how on earth they keep to their scheduel with three on the go at once, on top of a life, I don't know.

In the end, if you're so right about this perfect codex in a week business, then do it. You go off and make a balanced, interesting, relatively flawless codex suitable for world wide consumption in a week. You can have some friends help you if you like. Of course you'll have to find room for that Fantasy codex by Wednesday as well, but I'm sure you'll manage. Ah, and remember the Lord of the Rings supliment is due in tomorrow as well, yeah?

Until you can do it yourself, that's the contempt I'll give to 'a codex a week' arguments.

Send me the money so I can take a week off of work, and I'll pump you out a full codex in one week.

BrainFireBob
23-03-2007, 06:44
No, Champs, you're making the outrageous claims, so you put up first.

Warp Zero
23-03-2007, 07:30
Interesting discussion. I'll put in my two cents. I tried to read all the post but didn't. So my apologies if I repeat something that has already been said, or bring up a point that someone has already addressed.

I also have had this discussion with my gaming group. In short, my opinion is this: I don't mind them taking six months between Codexes. I think that's a reasonable amount of time.

What I'm particularly touchy on is the Armies they do choose to do. I'm not always in agreement with older armies being pushed to the back of the line while others get an early re-write. Yes, I'm aware of the reasons we've talked about concerning why its "smarter" to do Tau while Orks are being done in a more fuller way. But that's just the way I feel.

Another thing is...if I am too wait a long time for an army Codex to come out, I do want the book to be fully balanced. I don't like to see even one single unit or upgrade be put in the "useless" or "near-useless" category. [see the threads on Pariahs, Sisters Repentia and others similar to it] Come on, we admit, there are some stats or things that are in each of these new codexes that make us scratch our heads. Am I right?

Which reminds me...let me ask you this: When GW game tests their armies, do they play it the way we play the games or do they play it their way? Is "their way" different than us? Do they even care about how it impacts the power gaming style of play or do they feel that its useless to cater to that crowd?

Also, if we are indeed waiting for new models...the six month window totally makes sense. There needs to be time for sculptors and such to do their job as well. But, what gets me is not the waiting....its sometimes what they choose to do with the man power they have. Example: Re-do Dark Reapers? Why? They were perfectly fine. I understand redoing the Striking Scorpions (they weren't up to standards I think we all agree), but the Dark Reapers? Here is where I wish they would've spent time on redoing the Wraithguard instead. [side note: I'm not complaining about the Eldar launch. For the most part it was awesome....I'm just nit picking at a few items within it]

So to summarize: Yes, I think it does take six months to write AND do new models for a Codex. However, if you're gonna take that long....there's no excuse for any broken rules or units. :D

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-03-2007, 08:56
Warp Zero, I think you've hit it on the head. The six-month window is fine, IF the Codex is un-GW perfect. However, they're not. So, it gets difficult to justify 6 months.

Myself, I try to keep myself on one army at a time so I don't have to deal with the whole "X comes out, buy X, Y comes out, buy Y, Z-game gets an update, buy that, start over at X" series. I'm making a transition to CSM from Guard, and boy does it feel timely- Chaos is (relatively speaking) around the corner. I'd feel very unhappy if I were interested in Orks or Dark Eldar as:

GW agenda:

1) Promote Space Marine Chapter A-Z.

2) Shaft Orks.

3) Promote random army chosen by D12 roll (note: not DE or Orks).

4) Shaft DE.

5) Release miserable excuses for WDs, start from 1.

Sorry if I'm rambling. Well, I am. Anyway, GW's problem is not that their plan doesn't work; the plan works, but it sucks that it does. Consider a child allowed to continually spurn homework (DE get shafted) so they can eat candy (money moolah from more popular releases). The child never learns its lesson. In short, GW is a spoilt child that needs to be beaten severely with a gaff hook and then sent to bed with no supper. Or candy for that matter.

*Note that the above in part is facetious. The author does not actually condone the use of gaff hooks on anything but a fish. Which begs the question: Is GW a fish?

GavT
23-03-2007, 09:30
And how much of that has to do with WRITING the codex, which is what I was talking about?

At least two thirds of the things on that short list directly involve the lead writer on a project. The vast majority of a games developer's time is not spent sitting at a keyboard simply writing. If it were just the case of spending a week slapping down a few sentences and making up some profiles, we'd all have a lot more spare time! :)

I would also challenge anyone to write 5,000+ words of background and 15-20+ bestiary entries (another 3,500-5,000 words) in a single day. Also, how much preparation time did you need to do before writing your appelate? I can't imagine you knocked out 3,000 words without some form of research and plan in place.

Incidentally, our lead times are actually even longer than most folks imagine - anywhere up to starting a project 24 months before release for big things such as the new Warhammer rulebook and starter set.

Cheers,

GAV

leonmallett
23-03-2007, 11:40
Thanks for the insight GavT and AndyH.

I am sorry Champsguy, but I still think (as others have stated) that you are deluded if you think you would churn out anything other than unbalanced, turgidly written, illogical dross in a wekk. Next time you have a weeks vacation prove us wrong, since you keep insisting on asking for those who disagree to pay for a week off for you.

A codex is part creative writing as well as being part 'factual' writing (wrong word I am sure). Both require research into what has gone before (preparation). The lists themselves need balance and internally logical decisions, with no doubt changes from the initial draft/outline. This is of course based on testing. You talk of new versions of old codices not needing testing? I'm sure that is incorrect. Look at the subtle changes that Codex Dark Angels underwent amongst the more obvious changes. These things need to be checked to see they work as intended rather than not working, or worse still working as unintended.

Captain Micha
23-03-2007, 12:58
*bangs head on desk*A week? are you ******* serious? I'm no pro writer.... but when I attempted writing a lengthy short story about something it took me six months to get what roughly amounts to the same amount of material found in a codex (once you count for inpsiration.. lack of it etc etc) grant it this is -all- 'fluff' and no rules... but coming up with rules is always harder with a system like 40k. (I can crap out a d20 books worth of useful rules in under a week. want proof? I'll post my worlds campaign log sometime soon lol. I even came up with a better spell casting system. le sigh) d20 rules? probably over 100 pages worth easy so far. (most of these ideas while useful I abandoned simply to streamline *L*) 40k rules? zip... none. period. why? I've still not figured out how they do things yet.

I'm glad to see that some of the dev team itself decided to speak up here. We appreciate your input! *eyes my half converted warrior pariah.* how do I make the weapons for them... the body was 'easy' (note they are still so hideous I am not posting pics yet.. I've got six more warriors that are spares) but I can't rightly figure out the weapons....

Anyway, a week... yea right....

and that is a ton of work to make a codex work. please please release the orks sometime soon! one of my friends is going rabid over this! I swear I saw foam action when he started thinking about it!

Zzarchov
23-03-2007, 13:35
It is easy to think Codex's are easy to churn out. And you can churn on out something "ok" within a week if you are good. But if you churn out something "ok" you'll need to update it and change it constantly for months, hell maybe years.

If you don't have time to do it right, you'd better have time to do it twice.

It took me a year to get from OK to something Im mostly happy with in a simple fandex.

WLBjork
23-03-2007, 14:46
The cost for the pellets is about 1400 euro per ton.

On top of that you also have:

Sales Tax (17.5% in the UK)
Corporation Tax (between 20% and 30% in the UK)
The cost of the mould
The cost of the machine (including running costs)
The cost of labour to run the machine
The cost of labour to design the model
The cost of the factory (including running costs)
The cost of the warehouse (including running cost)
Transport costs
Packaging
The cost of labour for designing the packaging
The cost of labour to manufacture the packaging
The cost of components for the packaging
The cost of the bricks and mortar stores (including running costs)
The cost of staffing the stores
The cost of Admin Staff, Managerial Staff, Legal Staff...

There is a lot more than just the cost of the raw materials to consider!

Templar Ben
23-03-2007, 15:45
On top of that you also have:

Sales Tax (17.5% in the UK)
Corporation Tax (between 20% and 30% in the UK)
The cost of the mould
The cost of the machine (including running costs)
The cost of labour to run the machine
The cost of labour to design the model
The cost of the factory (including running costs)
The cost of the warehouse (including running cost)
Transport costs
Packaging
The cost of labour for designing the packaging
The cost of labour to manufacture the packaging
The cost of components for the packaging
The cost of the bricks and mortar stores (including running costs)
The cost of staffing the stores
The cost of Admin Staff, Managerial Staff, Legal Staff...

There is a lot more than just the cost of the raw materials to consider!

You are conflating costs. I cannot speak to UK taxes only US. In the US, taxes will be paid on the profit of the firm not on revenue.

I agree that the cost of materials (variable cost) is just one component. It is the most important (which is why direct material cost is subtracted first on a cost and profitability report).

The VC in producing the item will be Materials and Packaging (direct material) and Utilities, Direct labor (not the hodge podge you listed) and other supplies as VC Conversion. That will give you your VC Margin. Fixed product costs will be paid by margin such as the cost of the mill, repair, depreciation, and overhead.

Half of what you listed are sunk costs and in no way are reflected in the profitability of the item. If you want me to explain that further just PM me as I would hate to bore everyone with talk of cost accounting.

----------------

That said, I purchase little plastic men so I must view them as worth the price.

Stormsender
23-03-2007, 16:29
whooa hoo an acountant whoop out some numbers yeah, good stuff. I just want my army dex to reflect whats currently going on in game which it doesn't becuase of the switch in the way DA does business. Are they really an Astardies chapter and if so why are they doing so many things that are no reflected in the codex marines, I hate inconsistancies. Release codex's relevant to each other in a timely basis or prepair to take some heat.

Templar Ben
23-03-2007, 16:40
I had posted on another thread that when a new edition comes out (let's say when 5th is published) they should take each of the existing codexes and make an errata page to bring it in line with the new rules. By doing so, the armies that don't have marketshare to dictate a new codex quickly (you know who I mean) will not be at a disadvantage under the new rules. It will also help when the new edition changes the way a rule works so you don't have a codex refer to something not in the new system.

That would be a fix that can happen quickly.

The new codex release would have the fanfare that we are used to and the resultant model sales.

Brother Loki
23-03-2007, 16:59
Templar Ben: They did that as soon as 40Kv4 came out. They're free downloads on the GW website. They did the same for WFB when v7 came out.

Champsguy
23-03-2007, 18:49
On top of that you also have:

Sales Tax (17.5% in the UK)
Corporation Tax (between 20% and 30% in the UK)
The cost of the mould
The cost of the machine (including running costs)
The cost of labour to run the machine
The cost of labour to design the model
The cost of the factory (including running costs)
The cost of the warehouse (including running cost)
Transport costs
Packaging
The cost of labour for designing the packaging
The cost of labour to manufacture the packaging
The cost of components for the packaging
The cost of the bricks and mortar stores (including running costs)
The cost of staffing the stores
The cost of Admin Staff, Managerial Staff, Legal Staff...

There is a lot more than just the cost of the raw materials to consider!

I don't know about the taxes you pay over there, but everything else you've listed is a one-time cost. That's why FW stuff is so expensive - they do incredibly small runs. It would cost you a ton of money to buy a figure if GW only produced like 10 of them.

But those costs don't change at all (except labor costs to run the machine and shipping), regardless of whether you produce 10 models or 10 million. That's why the more they produce, the lower the price they can charge.

Champsguy
23-03-2007, 18:57
At least two thirds of the things on that short list directly involve the lead writer on a project. The vast majority of a games developer's time is not spent sitting at a keyboard simply writing. If it were just the case of spending a week slapping down a few sentences and making up some profiles, we'd all have a lot more spare time! :)

I would also challenge anyone to write 5,000+ words of background and 15-20+ bestiary entries (another 3,500-5,000 words) in a single day. Also, how much preparation time did you need to do before writing your appelate? I can't imagine you knocked out 3,000 words without some form of research and plan in place.

Incidentally, our lead times are actually even longer than most folks imagine - anywhere up to starting a project 24 months before release for big things such as the new Warhammer rulebook and starter set.

Cheers,

GAV

Oh, I'm sure they keep you guys very busy. I'm not insinuating that you're just slacking off or anything (my original post made that a bit more clear, before we got distracted by the one-week timeline). My point was that it's not the actual writing of the book that takes so long - it's other factors that enter into play.

Though I'd really like it if you guys did some more WD articles to tide people over. I love my 'Nid codex (thank whoever wrote that for me, will ya?), but I used to play Dark Eldar, and hate to see them drag along with the same old stuff. Hint hint.

Yeah, I had done some research beforehand as far as writing the brief, and I was quite familiar with the goings-on of the case. But you guys should be familiar with the changes you're going to make with the codexes as well (after all, it is your game). ;)

I think someone could do an okay codex in a week. In a business, where one guy doesn't get to call all the shots, and has to listen to bosses and whiney artists and other people, I'm sure that will stretch out considerably.

Templar Ben
23-03-2007, 19:00
Templar Ben: They did that as soon as 40Kv4 came out. They're free downloads on the GW website. They did the same for WFB when v7 came out.

They should do it well. ;)


I don't know about the taxes you pay over there, but everything else you've listed is a one-time cost. That's why FW stuff is so expensive - they do incredibly small runs. It would cost you a ton of money to buy a figure if GW only produced like 10 of them.

But those costs don't change at all (except labor costs to run the machine and shipping), regardless of whether you produce 10 models or 10 million. That's why the more they produce, the lower the price they can charge.

There is stuff included like the stores which have nothing to do with production. Throw that right out. The fixed overhead such as admin costs should be included. You are right about the long production runs being so very cheep. Even your set up costs are lower if you have few changes during a cycle.

VetSgtNamaan
23-03-2007, 20:09
I am all for them pumping out more dark angel goodness every month the more they do the more I will buy. which is really the only complaint I have about gw I want more stuff for my army. Yeah silly I know.

gorgon
23-03-2007, 22:31
I've written on subjects that are a lot longer than 3000 words, that required loads of research. And I did it in a couple of days. I did a 30 page appellate brief to the state Supreme Court and it took me a week. That's something you don't want to screw up on.

I have a graduate degree, have worked in a legal environment and I'm currently a professional writer in a creative environment. Allow me to assure you there's a big difference from writing academic or legal papers and doing creative work. :)

In grad school, I was able put together decent research papers in a week or two. It took longer to write a *good* one due to the additional (i.e. actually doing the proper amount of) research time. But in a creative environment I sometimes spend a week just in creative concepting meetings for a new project. Why?

Everyone else around me. Just getting a new creative *concept* approved can involve many rounds with your fellow creative types, business people, salespeople, and other internal stakeholders. Everyone needs to be on the same page before the real work can proceed, and they usually aren't. That means rounds of revisions, more concepting, more meetings, etc. Then maybe you get to write something.

And that's not a condemnation of the process. While it can be frustrating, you *need* to have everyone in your enterprise on board, and you often (although not always) improve the concept based on others' feedback. In creative work, taking your time *does* make a difference.

I understand why you have your opinion. But trust me that there's a huge difference between your writing process and theirs. It's not even apples-to-oranges...more like apples-to-appaloosas.

Gav, Andy...I can feel your pain. :)

ctsteel
23-03-2007, 23:10
I tend to think people are under-estimating the amount of playtesting and revision time needed too.

Think about it - you need to play-test your new codex army, models and rules, using a bunch of different variants within that army.

Then, multiply that out by each of the other armies already out there, and multiply again by the variant armies within those races. Taking into account special rules for each army, making sure they interact properly and dont cause game imbalances etc.

That takes a *lot* of different games, not to mention needing different peoples' interpretations and thought processes, and various tactical situations in game to even highlight them as issues.

And that level of complexity I suspect is also why there are weird clashes of rules and wording between races even with the new codex - it just didn't get found/dealt with before the codex had to be released.

SamaNagol
23-03-2007, 23:36
I'd like to see them take longer to do books

6 months isn't enough time. A year is probably just enough.

Books need stringent testing, and also some good editing to ensure IP is in line with the rest of the range. I would rather wait longer for a better product than get short term fixes.

WHAAAAAAGH!40K!
24-03-2007, 03:32
I see your point. But 40k is a complex rules system. As you stated nothing YOU have designed is that in depth. The thing is the rules designers for GW have people like you that will find every little flaw in there design and exploit and/or complain about it. The designers playtest and playtest and playtest to be sure that all the rules work in conjunction with the core rulebook and that the armylist is somewhat balanced with other armies present within the system. We only see 2 Codeces a year. They don't get redone for at least 4-6 years. The way I see it, the more effort that the design team puts into a codex the better that army will fair in the five years to come. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A LITTLE THING CALLED PERFECTIONISM. A word to the GW design team (in case any of you visit these heretic sites) I'm lovin the new codex layout and the return back to the fluff and buff of the second edition codeces. Love the new Eldar, Love the new Dark Angels. A+++

Finnigan2004
24-03-2007, 03:39
I think that it's worth waiting a little longer for a codex or army book that is relatively balanced and well implemented than to rush them out and have poorly conceived and poorly tested rules. Giving every marine an assault cannon might seem like a good idea for a week, but given time to rethink it... Well, yeah, anyhow it is best to test rules sufficiently.

Champsguy
24-03-2007, 16:16
I see your point. But 40k is a complex rules system. As you stated nothing YOU have designed is that in depth. The thing is the rules designers for GW have people like you that will find every little flaw in there design and exploit and/or complain about it. The designers playtest and playtest and playtest to be sure that all the rules work in conjunction with the core rulebook and that the armylist is somewhat balanced with other armies present within the system. We only see 2 Codeces a year. They don't get redone for at least 4-6 years. The way I see it, the more effort that the design team puts into a codex the better that army will fair in the five years to come. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A LITTLE THING CALLED PERFECTIONISM. A word to the GW design team (in case any of you visit these heretic sites) I'm lovin the new codex layout and the return back to the fluff and buff of the second edition codeces. Love the new Eldar, Love the new Dark Angels. A+++

Yes, they certainly catch everything with their playtesting. :rolleyes:

leonmallett
24-03-2007, 16:21
Yes, they certainly catch everything with their playtesting. :rolleyes:


There will always be something that is missed or is exploitable because it is impossible to balance all potential variables (army selction, BGB core rules, list options vs opponent lis options, chance, playing environments).

You seem alone on your 'one week codex' contention, and determined to stand your ground with comments such as this. Perhaps concede the issue?