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The Dude
22-03-2007, 06:45
Ladies and gentlemen of Warseer. I present to you, The Dude’s list of Things Games Workshop Isn’t.

1. Evil

Games Workshop do not make business decisions purely to mess with their customer. They do not sit up late at night plotting new and ingenious ways to specifically screw you over. Once again, just because it’s not happening the way YOU want it to, doesn’t make it a personal slight.

2. Greedy

All businesses have to make a profit. That’s the basis of capitalism. This profit is subsequently used to finance further development and refinement in the business to ensure the company remains competitive.

They don’t spend their free time rolling around in great piles of cash ripped from the hands of poor, downtrodden gamers. They use it to make their products better. I for one am glad the plastics technology has been so healthily invested in. The quality of GW minis has been steadily improving since I joined the hobby in the early 90s, and this is due to proper investment of capital.

3. Run by idiots

I am supremely confident that the people in charge know exactly what they’re doing. Some of their decisions may not make sense to you as a customer, but do you seriously think a successful multi-national would remain so if led by drooling idiots with absolutely no business acumen?

4. Obsessed with Space Marines

Whilst this is difficult to argue, you have to understand that lots of people like Marines. They’re cool. Therefore all Games Workshop is doing is meeting demand. I mean, hell, different Chapters have been getting separate Codices since 2nd edition (ie since Codices came into being), so it can hardly be argued that this is a new phenomenon.


Now I’m sure there are many who will argue against what I’ve said here, and I encourage it, but I’m getting a bit sick of the “GW is Evil!!!” talk, and thought they may need a bit of moral support ;).

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 07:01
i was goign to say: good. but then i read your little arguments. you're right. I think people are just venting and ranting about a company that they have seen blossom and shine with great product and materials, sort of "phone it in," so to speak. im not anti GW in any sense of the word. Rather, i am Bring back the good old days of White Dwarf being a publication by gamers for gamers instead of being a giant advertisement for citadel. they might as well release a catalog and stop calling it a magazine. other hobby companies do.

snurl
22-03-2007, 07:08
I for one am glad the plastics technology has been so healthily invested in. The quality of GW minis has been steadily improving since I joined the hobby in the early 90s, and this is due to proper investment of capital.



Sorry, but I cant agree with that one. IMHO the 6th edition plastics were way better than the newest ones. Especially on the Skull pass figures and the dwarves, there are areas around the sides of the figs that are almost void of detail, not so with the older ones.
Then again i'm just an old guy who likes the older metal figures. I have figures that are older than some of my opponents.

dodicula
22-03-2007, 08:46
2. Greedy

All businesses have to make a profit. That’s the basis of capitalism. This profit is subsequently used to finance further development and refinement in the business to ensure the company remains competitive.

They don’t spend their free time rolling around in great piles of cash ripped from the hands of poor, downtrodden gamers. They use it to make their products better. I for one am glad the plastics technology has been so healthily invested in. The quality of GW minis has been steadily improving since I joined the hobby in the early 90s, and this is due to proper investment of capital.



I havent heard that GW is evil from anyone, but I will speak to your other points in a few posts, in this post will deal with point 2.

2) Greedy- businesses do need to make a profit, and in fact I think GW relentlessly raising their prices has benefited the hobby in an unexpected and unintended (at least by gw) ways. By raising their prices so high they encouraged their competitors into the market , and these competitors have been steadily eroding GW's share of the war gaming market by being able to match GWs prices while turning out better products, and it has benefited consumers enormously. Like the bulky shoulder pad look-privateer press, like super detailed and heroic looking miniatures- Rackham, want a different look to GW's minis- Gamezone just to name a few. I sincerely hope all these new competitors do not kill off GW as they have a number of distinct advantages in the form of better minis (all three), more responsive customer service but most importantly SIZE, which brings me to the next point

I have a lot of money invested in GW minis, many of us do, and I root for Warhammer to do well because it is my favorite game and because most of my miniatures would go unused if war-gaming switched to smaller skirmish games and GW went under (maybe armies of arcana could replace GW, but maybe 30 minis would be the new "horde army" too) . My concern is that miniature prices have driven many people to skirmish games because of the cost, and skirmish games are not gw's strong suit and thus could make it go out of businesses, and be sold off to Milton Bradly who would interweave Warhammer and My Little Pony. The size thing also neatly intersects with the "They use it to make their products better" part of your posts.

One of the questions I always have when a company reinvests its profits is are they investing it in product development or are they investing in product cost. You may think that it is ridiculous that any "capitalist" company would invest in "costs" but the truth is its done ALL THE TIME in the corporate world, companys rent offices that sit empty due to changed plans, buy companies only to see that companies customers desert... in GW's case it is pretty clear to me that recently they are not investing in product development but product cost.

Two examples I will cite are the retail situation, and the sculpting. It used to be that the MAIN product independent retailers would carry was GW, but about 3 years ago, GW set out on a campaign to ruthlessly crush them, not because they are evil, but because they were seeking higher profits GW-
-Made it impossible for retailers to sell online
-Lowered the discount given to retailers on GW products
-Increased order sizes
-Started opening competing stores
This is fine, but sales, distribution has a cost and GW chose to take up that cost rather than share the cost (and profits with retailers) now they are stuck with expensive leases in class A locations with DECLINING sales. GW stores can never fully replace the independents as many of their customers will not play there. I have NEVER played at a GW store, and I know a quite a few people who won't for many many reasons including:
-difficulty parking in a high traffic area (I live in the San Francisco area)
-being unpaid product demonstrators to hordes hyper-active and rude kids
-4X4 tables (WTF)
-Being unable to use non-gw miniatures
-Time limits on games
-Requiring all miniatures to be painted/no proxies

So, GW has their shiny mall stores with space marine statues sitting empty, while we scramble for a place to play (3 stores have closed in the bay area in the last year) GW (unlike Rackham, Warmachine) requires a lot of space to play, and while the premier location stores are nice they are too expensive to provide the needed space, and the independents are disappearing, leaving us less and less places to play. No place to play is a bad for demand, which makes the stores emptier...

The second example in GW investing in costs is easy to spot: Their few 3 releases (Orcs, DA, Empire) were simply horrid (with a few exceptions) in terms of the quality of the new miniatures, and tepid in terms of rules my guess is that GW is not paying its sculptors competitively (to improve the product as you say) but rather is "investing" the extra sales in hiring managment flunkys (asst. director of sculpting...) and executive bonuses rather than talented artists and designers (as other companies seem to be beating GW in getting all of those).


Lastly, I'd like to point out that while yes, GW needs, and in fact deserves a a profit for what they are doing, it is irrational for it to price itself out of the market for its customers (SALES ARE DECLINING) while at the same time not doing much to improve its product (see orcs, empire, DA), it makes the veterans bitter and makes the kids go to other options that are more cost effective and more plug and play (pre-painted, video games...)

Damien 1427
22-03-2007, 08:57
I have to agree on all but the last point.

GW pushes Beakies, people buy Beakies, people demand Beakies, GW makes more Beakies. GW doesn't push Non-Beakies, a lot less people buy Non-Beakies, a lot less people demand Non-Beakies, GW makes less Non-Beakies.

Ozorik
22-03-2007, 11:18
Indeed, which leads to the situation where the rarest 'race' by far in the fluff accounts for about 70% of armies see on the table (if you include chaos).

The over abundance of marines is one of the prime reasons I gave up on 40k, nearly every oponent had some form of powerarmoured mutant which meant that nearly every army you see is built around killing 3+ saves. This combined with the overly streamlined rules simply makes 40k repetative.

GW is greedy though, most buisnesses are but GW is hurting its customer base with its pricing and various other practises.

Obviously GW isnt run by idiots but my above point does suggest that upper management arnt world class.

snurl
22-03-2007, 11:24
Games Workshop isn't................

Listening to it's customers.

Auzu
22-03-2007, 11:30
-Made it impossible for retailers to sell online

It has to do with only retailing not bringing new blood into the warhammer hobby and by so killing it.

THE CHIEF
22-03-2007, 11:33
The 'new plastics' have nothing to do with the models you get bundled in with the game boxes. Those are specifically for getting people into the hobby in the first place, and the quality of the models is and always has been less than the proper boxes you can buy.

BTW, Dude - are you Kirby in disguise or something? :D No I agree with you though - I mainly stay out of the discussion forums now as they are far too OTT with strong opinions. GW aint that bad really. They have provided me with hours of fun. :)

Sai-Lauren
22-03-2007, 11:42
I have to agree on all but the last point.

GW pushes Beakies, people buy Beakies, people demand Beakies, GW makes more Beakies. GW doesn't push Non-Beakies, a lot less people buy Non-Beakies, a lot less people demand Non-Beakies, GW makes less Non-Beakies.

Indeed. Marines may be an iconic part of 40k, but I think they're so iconic, they sell themselves - they're like VW Beetles or Minis.

I'd like to see the energy being put into promoting marines go into promoting the other races, as their sales would improve, but marine sales wouldn't necessarily decline without the attention.

Although the original post was nicely put and well thought out.
I just wonder how long before it turns into the usual anti-GW thread. :rolleyes:

james1225
22-03-2007, 12:04
You dont work for GW by any chance do you.

Archaon
22-03-2007, 12:37
3. Run by idiots

I am supremely confident that the people in charge know exactly what theyre doing. Some of their decisions may not make sense to you as a customer, but do you seriously think a successful multi-national would remain so if led by drooling idiots with absolutely no business acumen?


I'm not so sure about that part.. there are certainly no idiots but bad businessmen.

The hobby itself is declining yet GW increases prices way beyond inflation rates and makes it more expensive each year for a new customer to enter.
They change army lists so people will need more models (cheaper points costs yet normal army point sizes remain, bigger units are mandatory to get the same effect they had in the previous edition - at least in Fantasy etc), change options so some units can't be fielded like that anymore and have to be re-bought etc.

All this contributes to the problems GW is currently having and i don't see any measures to counteract that effectively.. you can forget any discounts by buying bulk from GW, battalion boxes get changed and sometimes not for the better, price decreases are nearly unheard of etc.

All this contributes to my though that GW executives are a bunch of blockheads refusing to acknowledge the fact that they have to jump over their shadow and do big changes or they will run their company into the ground in the long run.

Jan Polder
22-03-2007, 12:38
I agree with the dude's standpoint.

On the last point made by Dodicula I must disagree. I have the new eldar and dark angels and from both lines the new moddels are very sweet. I have noticed that they look a lot better in real-life then they do on the pictures so if you haven't seen them in real-life I can understand you're point of view.

Cheers

Max

Ryu_ookami
22-03-2007, 12:50
Ladies and gentlemen of Warseer. I present to you, The Dudes list of Things Games Workshop Isnt.

1. Evil

I Disagree but Ok


4. Obsessed with Space Marines

and theres how many space chapters in relation to all the other races

Just on a side point purely because I'm curious how many GWS shares is it you own then :)

Marked_by_chaos
22-03-2007, 13:48
I think that its interesting seeing a pro-gw post on here for a change.

I don't think that GW charge excessively in comparrisson to their main competitors who seem to be charging similar amounts now. Its not like the otehr companies have tried to recruit gamers by charging far less.
That is not to say however that i don't long for the days of lower prices and grand sales e.t.c.

What make me laugh on here every time is the over-emphasis of the competition GW faces. Just because a few die hards are going over now and then to competitors does not pose any real challenge to GW. GW are making more on sales of hobby materials alone than most other companies make full stop.

Also I would dispute that the models from competitors are any better. Rackham are perhaps the best quality competitor and lots of their product is IMHO inferior esp. to forge world.

As for the space marine debate - they are so popular not just because GW actively push them but also because they are quite simply more popular as a concept with most gamers or potential gamers. How can you blame a company for catering to such demand.

Sai-Lauren
22-03-2007, 14:08
I think that its interesting seeing a pro-gw post on here for a change.

I don't think that GW charge excessively in comparrisson to their main competitors who seem to be charging similar amounts now. Its not like the otehr companies have tried to recruit gamers by charging far less.
That is not to say however that i don't long for the days of lower prices and grand sales e.t.c.

Well, compared to other gaming companies, GW is probably the best overall offering (other companies may have better rules, but worse figures, or better figures, but worse - or in a lot of cases, no rules).

However, for GW's target demographic, their competition isn't Rackham, Mongoose, Privateer, Heresy, Hasslefree, Black Scorpion etc. It's not even historical gaming companies like Skytrex et al, or board games companies like Parker, Milton Bradley, or even Hasbro/WoTC with their twin 1,000 pound gorillas of Magic The Gathering and Pokemon (ok, maybe King Kong and Godzilla ;)).

It's Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft for Games Consoles, Nokia, Motarola, Sony Ericsson etc for mobile phones, CDs, DVDs, clothes, sports (incuding team replica kits and other merchandise) and at the top age end of the demographic, things like cars and driving lessons (not to mention members of the opposite gender, alcohol etc).

Their competition is on two levels - market segment - which they've effectively won, and target demographic, in which they're up against some of the biggest companies in the world.



As for the space marine debate - they are so popular not just because GW actively push them but also because they are quite simply more popular as a concept with most gamers or potential gamers. How can you blame a company for catering to such demand.
You can't. But, you can blame them for focussing on that demand to the detriment of what are effectively their other brands - diversification of brand coverage insulates you somewhat more against whims and fashions, even if it doesn't improve overall sales figures.

Oh, and James1225, was that question to me, or someone else?

Ozorik
22-03-2007, 14:59
Just because a few die hards are going over now and then to competitors does not pose any real challenge to GW

You underestimate the numbers of gamers moving away from GW. The competiton is gaining in strength, not enough to replace GW of course but none the less if this trend continues GW will have very serious competition in a few years.

Ivan Stupidor
22-03-2007, 15:30
You underestimate the numbers of gamers moving away from GW. The competiton is gaining in strength, not enough to replace GW of course but none the less if this trend continues GW will have very serious competition in a few years.

I've heard the exact same thing for over half a decade now - essentially since I started looking at GW internet fan forums. Nowadays, these pronouncements remind me a bit like the old joke about fusion power: "We're twenty years from a usable fusion reactor, and always will be."

I'm not saying the competition isn't getting stronger. It's just that this prediction has been made so often that it's little more than white noise for me.

Ozorik
22-03-2007, 17:04
They ARE growing in strength though. I dont do much wargaming anymore but even I am aware of more alternative systems now than I was 5 years ago (and one of which claims all my gaming money/time now). The timeframe is uncertain but unless something happens to reverse this trend GW will not be the big fish in this particular pond forever. Just because something is oft repeated doesnt make it wrong.

The fussion power analogy isnt very useful. That technology is essentialy stalled but the dynamics of the gaming market keep changing.

Asmith
22-03-2007, 17:15
Multinational corporations are greedy pretty much by definition. A corporation that invests in itself does so to make higher returns down the road. So I would have to disagree with you on #2.

#3 is up for debate, but I would put many of their business moves, particularly in the US in the idiotic column.

ashc
22-03-2007, 17:16
5. A Creche. :p

On a more serious note i think The Dude makes some good points, but I do not neccessarily agree with all of them (I still think GW make some serious knuckleheaded business decisions for instance).

Ash

Bombot
22-03-2007, 17:33
I'm not saying the competition isn't getting stronger. It's just that this prediction has been made so often that it's little more than white noise for me.

Ok, heres why I believe it is different now. Nowadays the threat of competition is real. Its not just some garage/basement-run outfit churning out a few cheap models but comprehensive game systems with their own model ranges (e.g. Warmachine and Flames of War).

Look at GWs performance in the US its dreadful, and only goes relatively unnoticed because GW still have the UK and to a lesser extent Europe under wraps. They are hurt in the States because the industry runs through local gaming stores rather than GWs own shops. In that environment, GWs pricing and 40ks faults get shown up for what they are. Thus, sales are going backwards across the pond.

As GWs competition gains more market share in the US, GWs position in Europe might increasingly come under threat because of US influence over the internet: if the buzz going round the net is all about alternatives to GW games then people will take notice. If GW lose the position of having the most popular wargame in the UK, then they are in very serious trouble.

I dont think it will come to that thats the doomsday scenario, and I dont think management are stupid enough to let it come to that but if they carry on their present course I think it could happen.

OrlyggJafnakol
22-03-2007, 19:32
Competition is a good thing, if GW lose more of their market share I would hope they would increase the quality of their releases. Develop new themes, armies and ideas instead of re-hashing IP...

Perhaps the lack of competition, over such a long time, could have contributed to GW current situation?

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 19:56
whether you like it or not. they push space marines. its the most user friendly army and has some ok scupts. look at white dwarf and see the pushing in real time! look at the website! More pushing!
and if they were a good company they would listen to their customers. they dont.
Dude, you're out of your element...

OrlyggJafnakol
22-03-2007, 19:59
How many companies make Knuckleheaded decisions? Its not just GW... Look at Sony and the release of the PS3! You cannot blame a company for pushing its best selling products... They pay for the specialist stuff that the older gamers are more likely to game with.

Templar Ben
22-03-2007, 20:05
whether you like it or not. they push space marines. its the most user friendly army and has some ok scupts. look at white dwarf and see the pushing in real time! look at the website! More pushing!
and if they were a good company they would listen to their customers. they dont.
Dude, you're out of your element...

So you are saying that large companies will listen to customers?

Exxon Mobil is not dropping prices
Wal Mart isn't a shinning example of Customer Service
General Motors won't build a car I would by
Microsoft....General Electric....

VetSgtNamaan
22-03-2007, 20:06
I certainly agree it is a business that is there to make money, and yes it certainly caters to marines not that I care whether they do or not. I am all for GW making money, heck it is not like there are any shortage of discount retailers on line offering 30% off mail orders. I myself are taking steps to being able to play in my own house since I recently acquired 2 6x8 sheets of plywood to be sanded and made into game tables with suitable terrain.


There is certainly competition for GW when I play mordheim or necromunda I sure dont use GW figures I prefer other companies that do it better. It is a pretty simple rule of business customer loyalty is not what it was 20 yrs ago with choice and alot of it comes diversification of ones hobby time. DO you think any child will be more excited about the months of painting require to get thier army ready to play or are they going to be more giddy about the ps3 or xbox360 they got and can plug it in and start playing on line in minutes?

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 20:09
So you are saying that large companies will listen to customers?

Exxon Mobil is not dropping prices
Wal Mart isn't a shinning example of Customer Service
General Motors won't build a car I would by
Microsoft....General Electric....

GW is the type of business that can and should listen to their customers! theyre a game company not a freaking huge enterprise like microsoft and wal mart! how could you even make that connection?

OrlyggJafnakol
22-03-2007, 20:11
VetSgtNamaan "DO you think any child will be more excited about the months of painting require to get thier army ready to play or are they going to be more giddy about the ps3 or xbox360 they got and can plug it in and start playing on line in minutes?"

They most certainly do get excited... I have several boys in my class who live, breathe and sleep 40k. They are ten and would prefer to mess out with GW stuff over playing on their Playstations.

Children, like adults, are all different and enjoy different things. You cannot generalise by stating that all young people will rather play with consoles than get into GW.

VetSgtNamaan
22-03-2007, 20:17
I generalise because it is what I see in my area like every day. They get thier parents to buy a box then realise how much work in involved they disappear. As for those that stay interested in the hobby it is usually those lucky few that have parents involved said hobby. Of which I know only one. SO maybe it is different in the UK or US but from where I am sitting that is how it is.

And yes even I have helped to mentor a kid who was super excited to play thought of nothing but 40k but he then realised that I would help him paint and such but not do everything for him and he also vanished.

Marked_by_chaos
22-03-2007, 20:26
They ARE growing in strength though. I dont do much wargaming anymore but even I am aware of more alternative systems now than I was 5 years ago (and one of which claims all my gaming money/time now). The timeframe is uncertain but unless something happens to reverse this trend GW will not be the big fish in this particular pond forever. Just because something is oft repeated doesnt make it wrong.

The fussion power analogy isnt very useful. That technology is essentialy stalled but the dynamics of the gaming market keep changing.

As much as i find your sentiment to be well placed I cannot agree in the slightest. the competition could grow at its current rate for the next 20 years and it would still be a poor second. Until they can achieve the same market presence they have not got a hope.

I think we are in danger of being overly blinkered by the nature of the die hard gaming community in certain forums such as warseer. To put things in perspective until I started looking on internet forums I did not even know that the other companies existed!

Companies such as Rackham may sell to a relatively small niche within a niche. However, GW is the only company in the sector capable of bringing in outside interest on any meaningful level. They know this and that is part of the background knowledge that drives their policies.

Marked_by_chaos
22-03-2007, 20:29
Ok, heres why I believe it is different now. Nowadays the threat of competition is real. Its not just some garage/basement-run outfit churning out a few cheap models but comprehensive game systems with their own model ranges (e.g. Warmachine and Flames of War).

Look at GWs performance in the US its dreadful, and only goes relatively unnoticed because GW still have the UK and to a lesser extent Europe under wraps. They are hurt in the States because the industry runs through local gaming stores rather than GWs own shops. In that environment, GWs pricing and 40ks faults get shown up for what they are. Thus, sales are going backwards across the pond.

As GWs competition gains more market share in the US, GWs position in Europe might increasingly come under threat because of US influence over the internet: if the buzz going round the net is all about alternatives to GW games then people will take notice. If GW lose the position of having the most popular wargame in the UK, then they are in very serious trouble.

I dont think it will come to that thats the doomsday scenario, and I dont think management are stupid enough to let it come to that but if they carry on their present course I think it could happen.

Considering as you say GW's competitors sell well through independant sellers and these are all closing down - how does this threaten GW. They are the only company big enough to have a presence in major retail areas.

Templar Ben
22-03-2007, 20:35
GW is the type of business that can and should listen to their customers! theyre a game company not a freaking huge enterprise like microsoft and wal mart! how could you even make that connection?

They can listen to their customers. Agreed as is the case for any company.

They should listen to their customers. Agreed only to the extent that it makes money. SM sells. Spending money on an item tells the company I value this, please make more. They do that.

They are a freaking huge enterprise. They are an international company. They are also currenly listed as a buy meaning that the financial community is happy with them.

It is easy to make the connection. They wish to grow. They can do that by doing what others have done to grow. The top companies don't listen to a bunch of whiners and then change their business model to make the kids happy.

vargojones
22-03-2007, 20:42
GW doesn't have to push Marines, marines are inherently cool. If i could have one wish in the world i'd be a space marine, and i'm 28! so for a 10 or 12 year old they must be pant wettingly cool! In fact remembering back to when i started the hobby, i wrote stories about being a marine they were so cool and used to run around the playground making dakka dakka noises....................i'll shut up now. But all GW has to do is market them to a wider audience and it sells e.g Dawn of War, cool becasue of the intro and space marines! GW should advertise more it would be better for all of us. I think i might have gone slightly off topic. ho hum.

Batwings
22-03-2007, 20:51
GW is not paying its sculptors competitively (to improve the product as you say) but rather is "investing" the extra sales in hiring managment flunkys (asst. director of sculpting...) and executive bonuses rather than talented artists and designers

Absolutely! A fortune was spent on ineffectual middle-management and Time & Motion specialists. Subsequently, in an effort to reduce overheads, talented creative staff were shown the door. After more than a year of redundancies there were more managers that actual artists in the Art Department. The management were terrified to turn the spotlight on their own inadequacies.

Ozorik
22-03-2007, 21:45
the competition could grow at its current rate for the next 20 years and it would still be a poor second

Thats the thing though. The competition isnt growing at a steady rate. As I said 5 years ago I could maybe name 1 other games company beside GW. I can name a lot more now.

Its not just numbers but quality as well.

The other game system I mentioned was flintloque or how ever you spell it, not great rules and fairly ugly minis. I am now playing FoW which has much better rules than 40k and the minis are good for their scale.

Yes GWs grip on the market is so entrenched that it will last years and years, unless GW implodes, but it is looking increasingly shakey to me. Remember the competition doesnt have to acheive the same market prescence to hurt GW and GW isnt in the best of financial health.

Archaon
22-03-2007, 22:11
What i also noticed is that at a certain age (say mid 20s) people start looking elsewhere for their tabletop needs because they have played GW for so long and it just isn't challenging anymore and they can see the flaws more clearly when they get older and "wiser".

GW doesn't have anything for that market segment.. i.e. people having jobs and usually more disposable income they could be willing to spend and some of them just don't see the point in expensive GW products. They are either scouring Ebay for good deals or trade privately with other people if they want to start up a new army.

GW is so locked into its 2 (or 3 if you count LotR) main games that they handle everything else with pity and contempt it seems.
If they'd branch out they may open up new markets and stabilize their company but that would require investing money in talent rather than looking for ways to cut costs (including firing said talent).

If there were advanced rules for 40K, i.e. more akin with 2nd edition for the more mature (or those who are interested) gamer i might actually consider re-entering 40K (though still hunting for used models in good shape.. i don't pay full retail for GW models).

Damien 1427
22-03-2007, 22:18
Games Workshop isn't................

Listening to it's customers.

Frankly, after reading some of the anti-GW topics that spring up here? I'm not suprised in the slightest.

The game is afoot
22-03-2007, 22:20
Killer post Archaon, really valid series of points.

GW have 'most' of the kiddie market interested in miniatures tied up, they could have the older guys as well if they were remotely interested, or in my perspective capable, of writing a really watertight system for the 'older brigade' then GW could have their cake and eat it too.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
22-03-2007, 22:33
The 'new plastics' have nothing to do with the models you get bundled in with the game boxes. Those are specifically for getting people into the hobby in the first place, and the quality of the models is and always has been less than the proper boxes you can buy.

BTW, Dude - are you Kirby in disguise or something? :D No I agree with you though - I mainly stay out of the discussion forums now as they are far too OTT with strong opinions. GW aint that bad really. They have provided me with hours of fun. :)

hear,hear. I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. It seams that most of the complainers come from countries with no established sales businesses. European customers are happy. Thats why the number of trade stores and GW retail stores are on the up.

Americans complain the most. Thats probably due to the fact that the US business is run by a bunch of monkeys. Shaved gibbons to be exact. Only the US business pissed all over its customers and it trade stores. Thats what happens when you try to grow too fast and don't listen to the older wiser more experienced colleagues form Europe. Thats not my opinion it is actually the truth. Just ask a european manager next time you see one, though they will back the US up if you try to get them on the record as saying so. so meh. :p

The Dude rules, just don't micturate on my rug.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-03-2007, 02:35
What do you mean that GW isnt listening to its customers?

If you look at the trends for the new things which are coming out you see destinct price drops (Case in point, dwarf and Orc Mega boxes)

People want rules printed in white dwarf, Blood angels are going to be a white dwarf release (as a filler till a new codex is ready)

Rules have holes, yes. But all rules do. You can go up to people and say 1+1=2 and they will counter with the old 1+1=window arguement. It has no common sense, means absolute gibberish but people will insist they are right.

It's like forums actually.

What other complaints do people have? im sure that if you look into what is coming soon for GW you will see that most of what the customers are asking for are coming.

dr.oetk3r
23-03-2007, 03:12
Hmmm, seems people weren't too happy about my 'ole boycott thread i posted yesterday. Oh well, i should of known it would crash and burn eventually. I've been in this hobby for 6 years and i am getting tired of GW screwing the community over.

Dark Eldar D:

Flame me, i don't care

Professor Chaos
23-03-2007, 03:15
GW business strategy is not much different than a Cynical Old Man without good Eyesight and bad hearing.

Powerful still, but getting senile and weak in it's old age, because it can not adapt to change very well.

1) Instead of Using it's strength to actually grow the business and sales through indy retailers and discount stores. Greed crushed their distributers and Indy stores. Only to be replaced by carbon-copy chain stores with carbon-copy sales people that PUSH GW products on you when you walk in.

Meanwhile, competeitors like Flames of War, Warmachine, Wiz Kids, etc.... excel becuase they take more affordable and friendly approaches with their products.

2) In reaction of Pokeman, Wiz Kids, etc.... (key word is "reaction" or you could use the word term "LASH-out blindly), they quickly cheapened and simplified the game system but are still having a hard time lowering the prices (Put foot up Ass business strategy or a half-measure). In fact they keep on raising them (???). Anyway, guess who gets screwed. Vet 40K players like myself becuase now I am treated like a ten year old who's parents give me money to shut up. Case in point, and the ultimate symptom, is the new White Dwarf which although still an ad before the change at least it still was there to SUPPORT the hobby. Now, it's just a large ad set on displaying the models like a cheap whores.

3) So now Vet Gamers are pissed off with this kiddy-Driven reaction, and we start looking at other options (Warmachine, Flames of War, etc....) and their profits fall in the USA.

dominic_carrillo
23-03-2007, 06:17
yeah you can look at stocks and sales and stupid stuff like that. the bottom line is that people are becoming disenchanted and pissed off, and that sucks.

The Dude
23-03-2007, 06:58
whether you like it or not. they push space marines. its the most user friendly army and has some ok scupts. look at white dwarf and see the pushing in real time! look at the website! More pushing!
and if they were a good company they would listen to their customers. they dont.

I find it very amusing that you say with one breath that GW are pushing Space Marines on people, and with the next imply they don't listen to their customers.

Marines have always been popular because they are a very likable concept. This results in more demand for them which GW then meets. It may have an exposure/demand feedback loop, but you can't deny they are listening to their customers.

It's good to hear some of the well crafted responses here. It's a good lot to mull over. Admittedly my actual opinion may not align with what I originally posted, but I've always been a fan of playing devl's advocate.

I also find it gut-bustingly funny that because I actually wrote a positive post about GW, I'm automatically assumed to work for them :D

Osbad
23-03-2007, 11:43
Whether you consider GW "Evil" depends on your definition of Evil really. Certainly they are only interested in your well-being to the extent of how much of the content of your wallet they can divert towards their own tills. As is any major corporation, and most minor ones.

Strange how "Big business" ripping off the little guy by massively inflating prices, using misleading packaging and pricing strategies (e.g. increasing paint-pot size but reducing the volume of paint contained therein) etc., is perfectly legal and accepted as perhaps a bit cheeky, but perfectly normal practice, but the "Little Guy" photocopying a rulebook or backing up a CD is massively illegal and virtually one of the seven deadly sins according to big business.

Just my personal POV...

But then I think that pretty much all businessmen are immoral by definition.

I have no issue with GW charging whatever they think their products are worth, in and of itself. Its a free world so if Vauxhall think a Vectra is worth 20,000 or GW think a single Space Marine is worth 7, then that's their opinion, and I happen to differ from it. What I do take issue with is their machine that (for instance) charges twice the going rate for a pot of glue and then prevents their (generally nice) Blueshirts from pointing out to the customer that they could save themselves a packet by buying generic glue from the hardware store. That sort of thing is cashing in on the ignorance of kids (and their parents - who perhaps are led to believe that somehow GW glue is special and other glue won't work as well on GW models), and in my view Evil, or at least immoral.

To sum up, I think that GW are morally entitled to charge what they like for the GW, Citadel or Warhammer brands when it comes to miniatures or games rules. Its fair enough as it is their own invention and a legitimate opinion. What is NOT moral, is adding the GW logo to some generic product and pretending (either implicitely: by staying silent about better/cheaper alternatives, or explicitely; for instance I have read promo that claims GW brushes are the best in the world for painting models.... O RLY?) that somehow this makes the product better suited for its job and therefore worth more money to the customer.

That my friends is a LIE and therefore immoral and/or evil. By definition. OK not on the level of Pol Pot, but still, not nice!

EldarWonderland
23-03-2007, 13:42
As a recent arrival into the world of 40K through my son's interest in the game, I am somewhat staggered by the cost of the models generally.

I can only thank the God of Ebay for being able to provide my son with 6000 points of Space Marines and myself with 4000 of Eldar.

Prices at the independant online retailers are generally 10-20% cheaper but it still makes them quite expensive in my eyes.

I know GW have the overheads of floor space, salaries etc but I rarely buy anything from the store but do seek advice. I always try to reward people who help me by buying their products but cost is always a factor.

Senseicads
23-03-2007, 13:46
I think paul has pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter. I think its the little extras that GW sells that give people the impression it is over priced, the price for glue and brushes is just extortionate and people are often seeing the price of them and given the impression that they must be getting ripped off in other ways.

Good post Paul

Cheers

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Asmith
23-03-2007, 14:49
No you are looking at it wrong, you are getting ripped off just as badly with other GW products, you just don't have anything to compare them to.

Senseicads
23-03-2007, 14:54
thats not true at all, if you compare them to something like Flames of war then they are directly comparable, and to get started in that would set you back a fair old whack as well. the rule book itself is 30 and ok Gw stuff is a little more but i don't think its all that bad. the bad stuff is as Paul said with the price on the hobby accessories, which is just scandalous!

Cheers

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Asmith
23-03-2007, 15:01
FoW is much cheaper on all counts... you wanna pick a different example?

Senseicads
23-03-2007, 15:12
nope not at all, the rule book is still 30, you still have to buy their version of the 'army' book, their theatre of war type of codex, which admittidly can make things slightly cheaper as you get a few army lists in each one but then they are still around 13. The miniatures for it are usually cheaper, but then they are 15mm. I mean a jeep is around 6 if you double that in size up to 28mm scale (I know its not exactly double ;) ) then the price is gonna be 12...how much is a lanspeeder(kinda comparable? ;) ), 15. not that far off. Sure you can prob shop around and get them cheaper off Ebay, but can't we do that anyway with GW stuff?

I think my point was that, whichever game you choose the financial layout will be significant, and gw while being one of the most expensive really isn't way over the odds like most people suggest.

Cheers

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Asmith
23-03-2007, 17:12
:rolleyes:

Archaon
23-03-2007, 20:05
nope not at all, the rule book is still 30, you still have to buy their version of the 'army' book, their theatre of war type of codex, which admittidly can make things slightly cheaper as you get a few army lists in each one but then they are still around 13. The miniatures for it are usually cheaper, but then they are 15mm. I mean a jeep is around 6 if you double that in size up to 28mm scale (I know its not exactly double ;) ) then the price is gonna be 12...how much is a lanspeeder(kinda comparable? ;) ), 15. not that far off. Sure you can prob shop around and get them cheaper off Ebay, but can't we do that anyway with GW stuff?

I think my point was that, whichever game you choose the financial layout will be significant, and gw while being one of the most expensive really isn't way over the odds like most people suggest.

Cheers

Cads

I think you are missing the point..

Both companies deliver a fully decked out game which, when played with the usual points ranges, take about 2-3 hours to complete.
Both have similar needs, i.e. assembly and painting.

Yet FOW is comparably cheaper which i don't think has much to do with the size of the models. Yes.. the GW models are twice their size but do they only cost twice the amount?

FOW models are mostly metal (apart from the vehicles), i.e. infantry, guns and the like while GW core troops are plastic. Plastic production is more expensive initially (the molds are far more expensive) but the production itself is much cheaper and so the end cost should be lower one would assume.

I get a full platoon of metal FOW infantry for something in between 12-16 Euro.. bases, miniatures, special stuff that they have in the rules.
I get a GW squad or regiment for 30 Euros which is all plastic.

FOW vehicles are a base 8 Euro.. bigger vehicles are 10 (big and expensive tanks like the german Tiger). Those bigger tanks cost twice or three times the points costs on the field than any other normal vehicle yet they are only slightly more expensive because they need more raw material to be produced.

Do you see that with GW? Character models cost two or three times as much as a normal model, bigger vehicles have all kinds of price ranges etc.

I'm just saying that the GW game experience is much more expensive than other games.. 50% because of their ludicrous price policy and 50% because of game design choices.
As i said.. other games give you an equally good time and satisfaction for half the price sometimes.

THE CHIEF
23-03-2007, 20:26
For what you get in FOW, it is atually comparable to GW. The FOW models are smaller and have far less detail on them. GW models are a good size and have a really high level of detail - even on the plastics.

It costs a good chunk of money to get into FOW. Once you are into it the ongoing costs might not be as high as GW, but it certainly aint cheap. It's also worth noting that the cost of the GW depends greatly on what style of play you like and what models you like. You can actually get a playable army for relatively quite a lot less if you favour elite units, rather than swarms which obviously cost more cash to put together.

I am not a really big fan of the GW price hikes, but I don't think they have priced themselves out of the market by a long shot. Perhaps in time if they keep doing it they will, but the models are good (and getting better all the time IMO).

Exterminatus
23-03-2007, 20:50
Ok... Let me help you out of your dream: GW is VERY space marine centered. Thats the reason I stopped playing 40k. Its like what, 9 SM armies vs 5 non 3+ save armies? Takes the fun away from the game, especially since they removed the armour saving modifiers.

That being said, the history and background of 40K is excellent. Thats why so many people still play 40K I think. COmpare it to Fantasy, where there is no definitive preferred race.

gorgon
23-03-2007, 21:24
They ARE growing in strength though. I dont do much wargaming anymore but even I am aware of more alternative systems now than I was 5 years ago (and one of which claims all my gaming money/time now). The timeframe is uncertain but unless something happens to reverse this trend GW will not be the big fish in this particular pond forever.

They may be gaining, but GW is much, much, much bigger than their main competitors, and most people underestimate this. Just their retail stores alone represent a massive operation compared to the Rackhams, Privateer Presses, etc. Let's see if Rackham and Privateer are even around five years from now. Because of their size, those companies are in a much more precarious spot than GW.


The hobby itself is declining yet GW increases prices way beyond inflation rates and makes it more expensive each year for a new customer to enter.

I really don't think the hobby is more expensive than a lot of hobbies and leisure time activities, however. People don't think twice about dropping $50 on a video game that they'll grow bored with and never play again after a couple months. And the price of these new console games? Yikes. You can easily be out $100 for a day of paintballing, and what do you have to show for it? Concert tickets can be very expensive. You can blow a lot of money with model railroading. The list goes on.

Meanwhile, I get many hours of enjoyment from my miniatures, both from the painting and modeling to the years of gaming with them. I'm not arguing that GW stuff hasn't increased a lot lately. It has. But I'm not sure that it's the bad value that people make it out to be.

Some people may have legitimate gripes with GW pricing. But it's my observation that there are many who are just cheap. Specialized hobbies are expensive.

Ravenous
23-03-2007, 21:32
EVIL.
No but they are dastardly. There are varying degrees of evil in the world and they are on the low end of "slap you in the nuts then ask you to pay for the beers, but you’re still good friends" evil.

GREEDY.
Every human is. Tell yourself any candy coated lie you want, the truth is the world runs on money. If you truly are not, then go live amongst the trees with nature’s creatures.

RUN BY IDIOTS.
Not completely, but expecting LOTR to sell after the movies were finished is a bit dense.

OBSESSED WITH SPACE MARINES.
They sell, so GW makes more. That’s pretty basic, most people like marines so they buy marines forcing GW to make more. Supply and demand, it will only get dangerous when they saturate the market with them (more so) leaving many bored and bitter players in its wake. New races are risky why bother burning money when you know what sells?



I really don't think the hobby is more expensive than a lot of hobbies and leisure time activities, however. People don't think twice about dropping $50 on a video game that they'll grow bored with and never play again after a couple months. And the price of these new console games? Yikes. You can easily be out $100 for a day of paintballing, and what do you have to show for it? Concert tickets can be very expensive. You can blow a lot of money with model railroading. The list goes on.

Meanwhile, I get many hours of enjoyment from my miniatures, both from the painting and modeling to the years of gaming with them. I'm not arguing that GW stuff hasn't increased a lot lately. It has. But I'm not sure that it's the bad value that people make it out to be.

Some people may have legitimate gripes with GW pricing. But it's my observation that there are many who are just cheap. Specialized hobbies are expensive.

The only difference is some people get bored of thier army faster then a video game.

An army costs around $500 give or take. And it takes a person anywhere from 3 to 6 months to build and paint it. Then they play the army for a while and have to go through it again. There is no instant gratifaction, you have to work in order to have fun, then you have to deal with rules lawyer butt holes that call your army cheese because it beat them. You gain Nothing from doing so. Most people would rather go buy an xbox and play Dead Rising til their eyes bleed.

At least in all the other games you can do it proffessionaly and make a living. Magic players can go on the pro circuit and make $50,000US a year, same goes with computer games and paint balling. What do you get from GW? a $5 trophy and a hand shake.

GW would GAIN from having a Pro circuit that pays. The only down side is you get more rules lawyers, but the rules can be adjusted for that.

Senseicads
24-03-2007, 00:06
I would never have even considered a pro circuit! Its such a good idea, even if they paid you in gw vouchers or something it would be ace ;)

Cheers

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Ozorik
24-03-2007, 00:23
They may be gaining, but GW is much, much, much bigger than their main competitors, and most people underestimate this

Im talking about the collective competition rather than any specific company.

VetSgtNamaan
24-03-2007, 00:52
In regards to flames of war I know I bought a 1500pt army from them for 170 canadian. It was an army deal box and it has a crazy amount of stuff in it but not only was it a complete army but it actually is a pretty tough army as well.

FOW tends to sell thier products by weight. Or at least it seems that way to me and while it may just be a perception thing but when I spend almost 200 on an army box and it feels like i am carrying a brick then yeah I feel that I am getting alot of value for my money. And when I open up said army box and find it packed very tightly full of all my minis then again I feel like I am getting my monies worth.


I am not one to say GW is inherently evil or run by space monkeys (WILD space monkeys.) But certainly the people at flames of war know how to make you feel like you are getting a good deal. I know I would certainly feel ripped if I bought a plastic dread for 55 and it feels like the box is empty. Which I suppose is why my local indie store hardly makes any GW orders anymore but thier FOW stuff is flying off the shelf.

Varath- Lord Impaler
24-03-2007, 10:03
hmmm how about this scenario

Person 1: GW is too expensive *goes and plays another game*
Person 2: GW doesnt allow you to use Special characters enough! *goes and Plays another game*
Person 3: What the hell? Special characters without opponents permission? BULL! *goes and plays another game*


What do you want from them?!

To people who want to make thousands off a competition circuit, why are you trying to turn a hobby into a buisness? you complain about GW doing it but then you try the same.

To people who say it is too expensive...its a HOBBY...why cant you just say 'its made me happy, i dont mind the expenses" Hell, i buy about 2 boxes a year from GW and i still love the game. Every single game i have is full of about a solid hour of the players and all the viewers laughing our asses off.

A computer game doesnt give me that satisfaction, only being with my friends and playing games against each other can do that.

JT-Y
24-03-2007, 11:17
Woah there...
No one in the UK makes money from the 'competition circuit'. Tourney tickets are set at the price required to cover costs, any procedes going back into the event itself, the club /organisation running it, or in increasing numbers, charity.

GW itself may seek to make a small profit on tourny tickets, but its the only business I can think of that runs GW related tourny's.

If I ever found out a tournament organiser was seeking to make a personal profit, I'd not go, and feel a bit disgusted by it.


Oh, things GW is not:
GW is not responsible for the invention of power gamers and rules lawyers at tournaments or conventions.
Blame WRG (historical games) for that in the 60's and 70's, the swines...
Some of those players are frighteningly into RAW and seeking abusable loopholes.

snurl
24-03-2007, 11:31
Oh, things GW is not:
GW is not responsible for the invention of power gamers and rules lawyers at tournaments or conventions.
Blame WRG (historical games) for that in the 60's and 70's, the swines...
Some of those players are frighteningly into RAW and seeking abusable loopholes.

Quoted for truth; I have been to Historicon. Some of the shouting matches are fun to watch.:D

Archaon
24-03-2007, 12:16
hmmm how about this scenario

Person 1: GW is too expensive *goes and plays another game*
Person 2: GW doesnt allow you to use Special characters enough! *goes and Plays another game*
Person 3: What the hell? Special characters without opponents permission? BULL! *goes and plays another game*


What do you want from them?!

To people who want to make thousands off a competition circuit, why are you trying to turn a hobby into a buisness? you complain about GW doing it but then you try the same.

To people who say it is too expensive...its a HOBBY...why cant you just say 'its made me happy, i dont mind the expenses" Hell, i buy about 2 boxes a year from GW and i still love the game. Every single game i have is full of about a solid hour of the players and all the viewers laughing our asses off.

A computer game doesnt give me that satisfaction, only being with my friends and playing games against each other can do that.

The point is that the hobby grew more expensive in an above average way when compaired to the inflation rate.
Some people DO mind the expenses even when dealing with a hobby.. are you rich that you don't care for the cost of your hobby?

Everyone doesn't mind the cost if he can afford it and can keep a steady level of commitment but with GW this becomes harder. If you have a steady budget per month you'd be willing to invest, say 50 (Euro, Pounds, Dollars whatever) and you did the math over the years you'd realize you are getting quite a bit less today than you were getting years before.

Yes.. subjectively speaking the quality has improved but that's a straw argument. Cars are better than 10 years ago yet when you compare prices and adjust them for inflation they don't have that price hike (and are sometimes even cheaper than older models).
The company is expected to improve their products but that can't be an excuse to raise prices on a regular basis because they need the money to "invest".. a good company does this within their budget and plans for it.

As it stands GW loses sales somewhere and their solution is to raise prices to even out the bottom line so their earnings remain constant despite selling less merchandise.
That can only function so far and at one point it won't work.. especially since other companies get a better exposure in stores and people tell them they get a 2 hour game out of it for half the cost.

Jo Bennett
24-03-2007, 12:46
I haven't read the entire thread, but am I the only one who thinks that saying GW isn't greedy and then justifying it by saying it just capitalist is shooting yourself in the foot. Capitalism is entirely about greed, it is predicated on the basis that everyone will always want more wealth and material goods, indeed more than they need or have use for. As for Evil, love of money is the root of all evil, GW are greedy (as already demonstrated) hence they love money, hence are evil. QED.

OrlyggJafnakol
24-03-2007, 13:02
Love of money is the root of all evil? Does that mean that before humanity invented the concept of finance there was nothing but peace and happiness?

GW is a company like any other. As gamers we love the creative side of GW, and we love the creative people who provide this stuff for us. The Jes Goodwins of GW, I assume, have little to do with the business side of things. I want to see more of their fantastic work (such as the new harlequins) the business executives and pen pushers I could not care less about.

Codemning an entire company to evil due to their management's decisions is daft!

Aelyn
24-03-2007, 14:44
As for Evil, love of money is the root of all evil, GW are greedy (as already demonstrated) hence they love money, hence are evil. QED.Not at all. Whilst I'm glad to see someone actually using the proper phrase (the love of money... as opposed to just money...) just about every step of your argument here includes a fatal flaw.

Firstly, capitalism is not predicated on the assumption everyone will want and strive to get more money and other material wealth than they could need, but rather it is simply a system which ensures that in principle everyone can get what they do need while not needing to produce it themselves. It is simply a way of allowing those who can, for example, build a house focus on that aspect knowing full well it will give them the means to get the food they require while at the same time ensuring those who produce food won't need to waste precious time building a shelter for themselves. Obviously the specifics have evolved over time, but the principle remains. If anything, capitalism is predicated on the assumption that people should have to put effort in to earn the right to live in comfort.

Secondly, in a capitalist society, it's basically impossible to create and distribute a luxury item without a business to support it, especially one which requires as much time and skill put into it as Games Workshop. Games Workshop is at its heart about making enjoyable games and hobbies for a relatively small but loyal group. Unfortunately by the limitations of a capitalist society that forces it to be a business.

In essence the mind of the company is the business managers, but the heart and soul of the company are those who actually create the games. GW does not love money any more than you love food - it simply needs it to survive, and needs more than the absolute base rate to grow. And if it can't grow, it can't offer more to us, its consumers.

Finally, the phrase "The love of money is the root of all evil" does not imply that loving money leads to being evil, but rather that not loving money will lead to not being evil. It's not a case of A leads to B but rather B implies A. Perhaps the distinction isn't entirely clear, but it's a vitally important one.

As for the discussion at hand, no, Games Workshop is not evil, but rather misguided. The problem is that it's on a downward spiral in terms of its business plan - for a luxury product that relies heavily on word of mouth, aiming for a low-volume high-margin strategy is inherently flawed, yet due to the relatively low portion of the population who would be interested in the products, coupled with the incredibly long satisfaction period associated with the products, the high-volume low-margin strategy is unreliable at best.

In my opinion, the best thing GW could do right now would most likely be to freeze the prices, maybe even lower them a tad, spend more on marketing to new customers (I've never once seen an advert for GW products further than ten metres from a store that sells its products!) and accept the immediate losses in exchange for the long-term gain. It's inherently a risky strategy, but I feel it's a risk that needs to be taken for the long-term good of the company and the survival of its products.

gjnoronh
24-03-2007, 15:45
Did everyone on this thread miss this thread in the same section of warseer?

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75807

I love dual complaints of:
Too many marine chapters / Not listening to their customers - I suppose those sales figures don't have anything to do with listening to what customers want.

Capitalism is all about greed? I suppose this depends on your definition of greed, when used on this forum it usually is meant to imply "GW is asking me to pay TOO MUCH, and their stupid for doing it"

Of course what is TOO MUCH is different each year- when one crowd of us leaves the hobby (which as often as anything has to do with the fact mommy and daddy aren't paying anymore, we now have children, oops we found girls etc. . . ) another group moves in.

Despite the complaints about miniature gaming including GW I've been hearing for the last 15 years the total number of GW gamers / sales figures keep going up.

You want to talk about corporate evil and greed go ahead and look at the profit margins of just about every major company you are interested in.
I had previously researched this on one of this weekly price complaint threads.

GW runs a 1% profit
Pepsi runs a 16-20%
Hasbro runs a 15%

And mind you corporate policies, environmental impact, and markup on their product is quite different between those three companies.

These numbers are available from the investor relations section of any publically traded companies website. Something to think about next time you put away 3 pennies worth of sugar water for 1 dollar. '


Price change over time analysis:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=856983#post856983

GW prices vs market competition links
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1380682&posted=1#post1380682
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73336

RobC
24-03-2007, 16:32
This really is not the place to be discussing economics, but for what it's worth:

corporations can be defined not only by their publically traded nature (i.e. anyone can buy shares in them), but also by their legal obligation to increase dividends for shareholders. By definition, they have to keep their dividends up or the chairman/board of said company isn't doing their job.

Given that GW is a relatively small company in a niche market, it is doing itself potentially long-term damage by continuing to be a publically traded company. What it needs to do is somehow (and this is the tricky bit) offload all the venture capitalists who currently hold shares in the company. Hell, it needs to become a private company again so it can avoid having to borrow money to pay next year's dividends.

A private company can plan for the long-term, which seemingly most corps in trouble cannot, bound as they are by their commitments to increasing profit.

There's a whole argument as to why, in a niche sector like 'the gaming hobby', it's essential for companies to keep their customers on-side. Regular price increases and stripping the non-remunerative (i.e. Design Studio) resources of a company down for short-term gain are not actions that gamers like, and it's partly why there's so much ill-will towards the company. By isolating itself from the wider wargaming/roleplaying community back in the late 80s, it tried to ringfence its share of the market - hence all the talk about the 'Games Workshop' hobby, as though there was nothing else. But this damaged the rest of the industry in the same way GW's predatory practices in the US damaged local gaming shops. Whether or not this is a sensible financial tactic (short-term yes, long-term perhaps not) is by the by, it helps explain why there are so many 'haters' out there.

GW are making attempts to ingratiate themselves a little into the wider industry; most BLP products aren't available through their stores, same with Specialist Games, so these wings have to go out there and push their products in bookshops and regular hobby shops. Perhaps it's time for GW proper to reconsider its isolationist stance - before it's too late. Because GW going under and its IP being bought out by Hasbro or whoever will be unbelievably much worse than the current situation.

Professor Chaos
28-03-2007, 00:43
"Perhaps it's time for GW proper to reconsider its isolationist stance - before it's too late. Because GW going under and its IP being bought out by Hasbro or whoever will be unbelievably much worse than the current situation"


I agree with you on there isolationist stance.

The first year that GW didn't show up at GENCON was a slap in the face to the entire industry.

Effect: They lost industry exposure and alienated the rest of their industry. Only to replace it with their OWN. Now most people get into by Word of mouth only.

Once they started their own carbon-copy stores, Indy retailers suddenly had more space.

Effect: Now the Indy Retailers gap has been filled by Warmhacine, FOW, etc.....

GW is backing themselves into a corner and a tomb of their own design with their lack of exposure to people who know nothing about them.

dominic_carrillo
28-03-2007, 05:46
i suppose that GW could do a pro circuit. Look at Magic the Gathering. i would love to see the big names in GW to go head to head in things other than painting competitions and the like.

Ravenous
28-03-2007, 06:09
GW itself may seek to make a small profit on tourny tickets, but its the only business I can think of that runs GW related tourny's.

If I ever found out a tournament organiser was seeking to make a personal profit, I'd not go, and feel a bit disgusted by it.


Please.

GW takes more then their share when it comes to tournaments. I remember back when they were charging $200 for the GT and they had over 300 people show up (thats $60,000) They rented out a collage hall for 2 days. Take out the transport, and rent cost. I figure they made about 30 grand at least.

Most small stores & clubs will charge $10 or $20 for thier tournies because they know people will pay and when 20 people show up you make $400.

Every tourny that isnt free takes a large sum of the money, mostly for personal gain.

A pro circuit wouldnt be a bad idea. Just make rules for comp, missions that rely on objective and special rules rather then VPs, have judges available that are knowledgable in the game, and make sportsmanship an important factor. In the end you have an even that is not only profitable for GW but for the players as well. People now pay $100 to play in a tournament for 3 cent trophies, they would easily pay $300 - $500 if they knew First play was $10 grand.

And we word getting around that they offer large sums of money more players come into the circuit, GW makes more money in the end.

Hell I wouldnt mind playing a couple games a year and put a down payment on a house.

One thing I am curious about though is, what if someone else decided to pull a tourny like this together, would that go against GWs legal policy for someone else to host a tournament that offered cash prizes?

gjnoronh
28-03-2007, 10:02
I know for a fact that GW US is running even or at risk of a loss for their GT's over the last few years. (Having talked to Jeff Hall the US events director directly about it)

That was one of the factors in abruptly cutting the 2006 season. GT's don't make GW money but they do give the "best" a chance to compete, and showcase the hobby.

Space Rental, transporting and paying staff are the big costs. Indy GT's do it cheaper www.indygt.com but most of them rely on a lot of volunteer work.

Ravenous
28-03-2007, 10:40
GW has a program here called the grey knights. People who volunteer for events and get free stuff here and there.

Our tournaments have been suffering as well. Back in 2001 when I first went to a GT there was 130 people playing 40k and 100ish playing fancy (my version of fantasy). When they dropped the GT and turned them in the 50 person max conflicts we still didnt have a problem. Torontos 2005 tourny had 65 people (more then the 50) playing 40k. At the 2006 one we had 34.

I heard that they are lowering ticket prices down to $75 and include a $15 coupon for GW stuff with that.

Needless to say if it goes on like this the game might be pouched.

A pro circuit ran by them could get them tons of money. Tell people that Best Overall gets $5000 and you will have people come out of the wood work so long as everyone gets something.

$5000 for the winner $1000 for best painted/general/sportsman then give everyone else a $50 gift card for GW stuff. You would have to charge $200 but they would get people into the hobby and spending money to go to these things. If they had 200 people show up paying $200 each thats $40,000.

With $40 grand they could easily cover transport, Prize money and hall costs. while the rest of it goes right in their pockets.

JT-Y
28-03-2007, 13:54
Well, in my experiance here in the UK tournaments don't run to make personal profit. The vast majority being organised by clubs and societies, rather than businesses.
The events my club runs do indeed make a small profit, but that gets ploughed back into the club and future events, as per the above.

May be different in the USA or Canada, doesn't say I have to like the idea, in the same way I don't like the idea of a pro-circuit with prize money.
Tabletop wargaming is a hobby and should remain so, in my oppinion, and I'll go further and say that its not a competetive sport, where it is easier to bench-mark a diference between pro and amateur competitors.
Going down such a route opens the hobby even wider to rules lawyering and abuse of rules as written, the death of WRG in the 70's/80's and an ongoing problem with DBM.

I feel this view shows an enormous cultural divide between the UK and the USA/Canada, because I can't see the idea being succesfull or welcome in the UK. I may well be wrong, thats just an oppinion. Please don't tear strips off me for it, it may just be me...

Ravenous
28-03-2007, 14:23
Nah its cool.

Ive run the idea of a prizemoney tournament a long long time ago, and it didnt go over well. Perhaps it is a divide or perhaps there is more hobbyists then competitive gamers here.

I think it could work but there would have to be alot of effort involved as well as a strict set of rules with knowledgable judges. RAW and rules lawyering goes out the window when a judge says you're wrong.

Bombot
28-03-2007, 15:04
I don’t like the idea of playing for cash for games that are as woolly rule-wise or as open to cheating as wargames. The CCGs I played went this way and I wouldn’t call it a development. For one thing, it accelerates the divide between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’.

Zink
28-03-2007, 16:34
I have to agree with bombot. Unless the armies were designed and supplied by the event organizer to be equal and fair(mirror armies, terrain set up identical). There are just too many variables and it's too easy to cheat. You pay big money and people will get dirty to win. The way the rules are written now I'm not sure there's any balance between the different army books. That's ok when playing for fun but not in a serious competition.

Templar Ben
28-03-2007, 18:10
The point is that the hobby grew more expensive in an above average way when compaired to the inflation rate.
Some people DO mind the expenses even when dealing with a hobby.. are you rich that you don't care for the cost of your hobby?


I bought a Nintendo in 1987 for $100.

According to http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

What cost $100 in 1987 would cost $177.24 in 2006.

Can I get the newest game system for that price?

Now if you want to argue that the Nintendo was out in 1985 and I could have purchased it then (it was less than $100 then too).

What cost $100 in 1985 would cost $187.11 in 2006.


Please don't try to say that rising the cost above inflation is unusual.

Asmith
28-03-2007, 19:59
Your analogy is flawed. The newest game systems are made from different technology all together thus justifying the higher price. The technology on a nintendo from 1987 can now be included in things like a cell phone, or those $10 cartridges you plug right into your TV, so now it is many times cheaper than it was back then. GW however offers the exact same thing as in 1987 (with cosmetic changes of course) At many times the inflated price.

Templar Ben
28-03-2007, 20:32
Right because the cost of the technology has gone up. No wait it has gone down.

The cost of producing the newest game system is not nearly as high of a percentage of the purchase price it was years ago. Why? Because the price has outpaced inflation. The same with GW and every other product manufaturer that is not selling a commodity.

I used game systems because in your initial post you said that prices rise with inflation. I was showing that is not the case. But hey to help you wrap your mind around it, we can look at Wizards of the Coast.

In 1998, the books required to play D&D were $20 each (PHB, DMG, MM). The average price of a supplement was $15 and an adventure was $10. In 2006, you pay $30, $20, $15 respectively.
By inflation they should be, $24, $18, $12.

Don't worry people got all upset when prices went up there too. They still sold a ton and they haven't lowered prices on anything.

yabbadabba
28-03-2007, 20:37
Your analogy is flawed. The newest game systems are made from different technology all together thus justifying the higher price. The technology on a nintendo from 1987 can now be included in things like a cell phone, or those $10 cartridges you plug right into your TV, so now it is many times cheaper than it was back then. GW however offers the exact same thing as in 1987 (with cosmetic changes of course) At many times the inflated price.

I dont agree with this at all. I pay more per item now than I did back in 1987. Milk is a classic, as is bread, beer, wine, motorbikes, cars, houses ... ....
All the same thing as in 1987, just a lot more expensive and all way above inflation.

Another thing people fail to appreciate is that while direct costs of manufacturer have remained fairly constant with inflation, associated costs have shot up. This is why Britain is no longer a country with a manufacturing economic base - it is too expensive.

Asmith
28-03-2007, 20:51
Firstly I didn't post previously, so I don't know what you are getting worked up about. Secondly you don't really have a handle on how electronic technology is progressing I think. Older technology continuously drops in price, while the newest technology which is physically harder to make actually increases in cost when you look at it in terms of inflation. You are comparing apples to oranges.

The cost of producing the newest games systems is much higher than it was previously, in fact many of the newest game consoles are sold at a substantial loss to the manufacturer. They use the very latest of cutting edge technology which is always expensive and which is why the price outpaces inflation because it actually costs that much to produce the things.

GW in fact is now producing miniatures at a substantial savings (mostly using plastic injection molding) than they were previously (mostly metal casting) and still increases prices faster than inflation. See the difference now?

Asmith
28-03-2007, 20:53
@ yabbadabba what does what I said have in any way to do with any of the items you have listed? I am merely pointing out that comparing it to video consoles is an extremely flawed analogy. BTW if everything is increasing at a faster rate than inflation I think you need a new definition of inflation.

yabbadabba
28-03-2007, 21:19
@ Asmith

re: Inflation. Welcome to the British economy!

As a rule over the short term metal casting is cheaper than plastic casting. Long term plastic is the better product.

The set up costs for plastics run into the tens of thousands of pounds (mostly because the moulds are cut from steel) - even though the plastic itself is very cheap. However the moulds suffer from wear and tear immensely less than metal.

GW now make their metal models with a majority tin base. This is currently being traded as a commodity due to it's relative scarcity(?) in the earths crust. As such control over price is out of GW's hands. I seem to remember reading somewhere that China was stockpiling it for their space programme which will not help the cost at all. Metal moulding tends to be done with vulcanised rubber moulds and these do not take punishment well. This is why a lot of classic models aren't around - the moulds went to **** and the original greens were lost or damaged.

Finally, as I said before, the additional costs associated with making models for a global business as apposed to a cottage industry or a small warehouse add significantly to the overall costs.

So in order to be able to produce minis at relative cheap, sustainable prices GW needs to find a product which is cheap, plentiful and has as little environmental impact as possible. That'll be sand or mud then :) . Or GW can reduce their business down in size to reduce costs, but will have to reduce their ranges and investments as well. A private equity firm might be happy with that kind of asset stripping but I don't think that most of GW's investors would go for it.

I hope that explains why I dont agree with your statement.

Templar Ben
28-03-2007, 21:24
Firstly I didn't post previously, so I don't know what you are getting worked up about. Secondly you don't really have a handle on how electronic technology is progressing I think. Older technology continuously drops in price, while the newest technology which is physically harder to make actually increases in cost when you look at it in terms of inflation. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I looked and it was Archaon that posted. I am hardly worked up.


The cost of producing the newest games systems is much higher than it was previously, in fact many of the newest game consoles are sold at a substantial loss to the manufacturer. They use the very latest of cutting edge technology which is always expensive and which is why the price outpaces inflation because it actually costs that much to produce the things.

PS3 was a loss because they were pushing Blu-Ray. XBox was profitable. That is according to iSuppli at least. Wii costs $158 to make and is therefore profitable too. This was worse those many moons ago. But then again I don't anything about electronics. :p


GW in fact is now producing miniatures at a substantial savings (mostly using plastic injection molding) than they were previously (mostly metal casting) and still increases prices faster than inflation. See the difference now?

Right and now the incremental cost in producing a game CD is pennies. The sunk costs of production for that game are recovered and still for some reason they don't start selling the games for 15 cents each. Funny that.

Asmith
28-03-2007, 21:28
I design injection molds and parts to be made by injection molds as part of my job, so I am well aware of how it works. Injection molding is by far the cheapest way to make these things in quantity. They aren't switching to injection molding for the fun of it, they are doing so because they save money. Unfortunately they don't pass any of this savings on to the customer, which IMO is a large part of their problem.

Edit @ templar ben: yes but the cost of things like CD's and video games separate from the console has in fact gone down in relation to inflation. A game for the Atari 2600 cost about $50 new - a new PC game today? about $50...

yabbadabba
28-03-2007, 21:31
I design injection molds and parts to be made by injection molds as part of my job, so I am well aware of how it works. Injection molding is by far the cheapest way to make these things in quantity. They aren't switching to injection molding for the fun of it, they are doing so because they save money. Unfortunately they don't pass any of this savings on to the customer, which IMO is a large part of their problem.

Fair enough. You can't argue with an expert, eh?

Asmith
28-03-2007, 21:41
Sure you can.. but in this case I'm pretty much agreeing with everything you are saying about molding so there isn't much to argue about :)

scarletsquig
28-03-2007, 22:00
GW is not completely pointless...

... unlike this post, and indeed this thread :)

None of it will have any remote form of real-life impact to anyone, therefore typing here is of no consequence.

Templar Ben
28-03-2007, 22:11
Edit @ templar ben: yes but the cost of things like CD's and video games separate from the console has in fact gone down in relation to inflation. A game for the Atari 2600 cost about $50 new - a new PC game today? about $50...

Actually I only remember buying 10 games for Atari 2600 and I remember they were just under $10 each at Sears in the early 80's. Strangely I wish I had bought E.T. seeing what those go for now. Nintendo games in the late 80's were $20. So no, they have gone up too.

We are getting pretty far off the topic of GW though.

GW will sell the price that the market will bear. Some here think they have exceeded that. I do not. The pure cost of production is rather low but they will still charge current prices. Simple and fair as no one is required to buy.

edit:


GW is not completely pointless...

... unlike this post, and indeed this thread :)

None of it will have any remote form of real-life impact to anyone, therefore typing here is of no consequence.
Quite right. I will refrain in the future.

Archaon
28-03-2007, 23:22
GW is not completely pointless...

... unlike this post, and indeed this thread :)

None of it will have any remote form of real-life impact to anyone, therefore typing here is of no consequence.

So by that reasoning might as well close down most of the board and stop talking crap with your buddies since it also doesn't have any consequence, meaning or importance, right? ;)

Discussion boards are that.. meant for discussion. Companies rarely look into such boards to get customer support and i suspect GW will neither but it is fun to talk about it.

dominic_carrillo
29-03-2007, 03:40
i, reiterating what i said before, which was that GW is no longer the company that it was.

Ravenous
29-03-2007, 05:34
I dont like the idea of playing for cash for games that are as woolly rule-wise or as open to cheating as wargames. The CCGs I played went this way and I wouldnt call it a development. For one thing, it accelerates the divide between the haves and the have-nots.


I have to agree with bombot. Unless the armies were designed and supplied by the event organizer to be equal and fair(mirror armies, terrain set up identical). There are just too many variables and it's too easy to cheat. You pay big money and people will get dirty to win. The way the rules are written now I'm not sure there's any balance between the different army books. That's ok when playing for fun but not in a serious competition.

Handing the armies out ahead of time isnt viable, as well it is kind of bland, unfun and boring.

As for the rules think of how MTG works, they still allow cards from 1992 and they have hundreds upon thousands of rules, and their pro circuit works just fine.

To solve the problems of comp you just instill a structure much like the astronomi-con does for their tournaments. http://www.astronomi-con.com/

As for missions every table will have different missions. That solves the problem of people preparing for specific missions, the ones astro uses are nuts if you ever played at this tournament you would understand that its really anyones game from first game to last.

Make sportsmanship matter, as well as having judges that can weed out problems.

I believe it would work just fine. The only thing that I would like to know is if it is legal to run such a tournament without GW backing you.

Zink
29-03-2007, 16:06
Handing the armies out ahead of time isnt viable, as well it is kind of bland, unfun and boring.


That was kind of my point. But it seemed to me to be the only way to balance things so that personal skill was more important than army building. I'm not familiar with MtG. Oh, I know what it is but I've never even glanced at it's rules or cards. Just my personal opinion but I feel professional events should be more about skill than luck. GW games are too random and the points costs for units and armies not balanced. They're fun but not balanced really. Giving a judge too much power isn't good either. People could get bitchy with arbitrary rulings. And sportsmanship is kind of a hard thing to measure professionally. Guys who win lots sometimes get less sportsmanship just because of hard feelings by the losers. Not a major a concern as I would never play professionally. I just think it would be very difficult to do properly. But stanger things can happen.

Carlos
29-03-2007, 19:32
GW need to do one thing and one thing only to gain back confidence in customers:
Its not lowering prices and its not lowering costs. Its some Promotion, Bundles and an Annual Sale.

Promotions and Bundle deals would work wonders for their business (eg: Buy new Da Codex, get 10% off any 2 space marine plastic box sets) as more people would buy in bulk, which would reduce the amount lost.

And an Annual Sale, or better Still Clearence, might work wonders too. Im not saying brand new stuff should go down in price but what about the older more ignored armies like Orks, Necrons and Dark Eldar? How about holding a January stock clearence and reducing the prices of older boxsets to not only clear them out, but to renew interest in them.

lanrak
30-03-2007, 00:47
GW isnt a Games Workshop any more.A Games Workshop implies the main focus of the company is the development and quality of thier games.
All the current GW PLC does is use its established IP and tallented staff to market thier models at the expence of gamplay.

So if you want to collect lots of plastic and metal models,spend ages building and painting them.Even more time talking about the poorly written rules.Then GW is the company for you.

If you want to spend the majority of you hobby time playing good wargames,steer well clear of GW products.

The game is afoot
30-03-2007, 08:38
GW isnt a Games Workshop any more.A Games Workshop implies the main focus of the company is the development and quality of thier games.

Their tired old engine has been left in the dust. It's still works (albeit not very well in the last two years) as a mechanism for bringing kiddies into their stores and flogging space guys and laser guns to their parents wallet.
There has been nothing new of merit out of GW for years, and now they are dwindling, perhaps someone at HQ could work out that a good new product might increase sales instead of more and more of the old stuff rehashed over and over again. New packaging, new higher prices, no balanced intellectual input.
It's sad considering how good they used to be many years ago.
Thats commercial shareholders for you.


So if you want to collect lots of plastic and metal models,spend ages building and painting them.Even more time talking about the poorly written rules.Then GW is the company for you.

It does lead to 'cul de sac' discussions. The game system has not progressed.
Consequently the discussion ends up in a static orbit going over the same old ground.


If you want to spend the majority of you hobby time playing good wargames,steer well clear of GW products.

Quite correct.
Excellent post.

clovis
30-03-2007, 08:59
the reason why i still play 40K is because i still have fun!, and i have been playing it for the last 20 years.It's true there are problems at the moment! even if i still buy their products i still think that €30 for a box of ten plastic space marine is very expensive, but i still buy them( but not as much as before!).I remember some GW stores used to do special deals, such as : buy 2 boxes and get the third one free!Bring that back! What they still do, well in GW stores in France is a card, and everytime you buy something you get stamps after a certain amount you can get a codex for three, if you have more stamps then you get a box!I am now3 living in Ireland, and they don't do that over here!I still buy some stuff but i would appreciate some gesture from GW!As for those who keep saying GW is evil....blabla, i say fair! move on and play something else and stop B... about GW! I have tried over games such as Warmachine but didn't like it( figures looks like older version of Pokemon or a Manga!) but that's my opinion.

Osbad
30-03-2007, 09:24
Something that really disappointed me recently was the way Aeronautica Imperialis was released.

Here they have a fairly new product - an air combat game, There are some very nicely sculpted models for it that justify a premium price tag (unlike many of GW's now rather dated line, like the Leman Russ, or Ork buggies for instance). Yet GW let it flounder in the depths of Forgeworld's antiquated and expensive mail order.

They over-price the rulebook (35 for 17 pages of rules, 8 pages of army lists and something like 100 pages of waffle), make it mail-order only (add postage to the already ridiculous price) and basically it flutters on the ground doing nothing much altogether.

If they had done something approaching the AT-43 with online rules you can "try before you buy", a discounted boxed set you could set up and get playing with out of the box, and with more expensive, but optional "add-ons" (other army models, full rulebook, etc), and above all done a splash promotion through their stores and at discount postage through their main online store, then they might have made a few quid out of it. Even better, if they had taken the basic engine and expanded the environments in which it operated out of the 40k universe exclusively - into (say) WWII, or even just into the Warhammer world (Deathkoptas and Dragons anyone?) it would have been exciting and novel and created a buzz.

Instead they let it languish as some sort of "beardy wierdy" in the depths of Forgeworld. How pathetic is that? They just aren't even trying any more. Instead all they do is release more fething plastic space marines for the dwindling numbers of faithful, and yet another month goes by as former players drift away bored with what's on offer.

Get with the program GW. You're BORING. Do something novel (and reasonably priced) to bring us back, or you're going down!

The game is afoot
30-03-2007, 12:34
Get with the program GW. You're BORING. Do something novel (and reasonably priced) to bring us back, or you're going down!

Concise accurate and honest.

Once again Osbad you have struck the nail firmly on the head.
Nobody wants to see GW go under, but if they are not going to make any effort to keep the older gamers who been very loyal within the realms of their area of the hobby then that is where they will go.
The kiddie market is replenishable so it'sthe obvious target.
The older gamer market increases every year though and they have long term disposable income so there is absolutely NO point in alienating them with inferior products, marketing and ever higher prices aimed solely at the kiddie intro market.
For the first time in nearly 30 years, there are better game systems out there, real viable options of high quality, there are better quality sculpted models out there, there are better painted and photographed models out there and GW needs to step up a gear, not drop out with the same products repackaged at a higher price.
New QUALITY material would also circumnavigate eBay eating into their profit margin.
Spend some money on R+D and get back to basics.

clovis
30-03-2007, 13:59
I hate to say, but i agree with guys! Hopefully this year GW is launching codex apocalypse! so there's not all bad for GW!
True when you say that some GW stuff are overpriced but PP stuff are in my opinion overpriced.

The game is afoot
30-03-2007, 14:17
True when you say that some GW stuff are overpriced but PP stuff are in my opinion overpriced.

I don't think anyone will argue with you on this, the difference is PP and Rackham are offering something new and different with new systems.
That is what is prizing open the wallets of the older gamers for their wares.

Tyron
30-03-2007, 14:50
"Things that Games Workshop isnt" - A place to pick up girls.

clovis
30-03-2007, 14:51
I don't think anyone will argue with you on this, the difference is PP and Rackham are offering something new and different with new systems.
That is what is prizing open the wallets of the older gamers for their wares.


I agree with you:o But as you said PP and Rackham are offering something new. I think therfore that the problem is not GW overprced products, game rules... but the need for Veteran to seak something new and refreshing the likes Rackham and PP are offering at the moment.

One thing, i think, the over competitors don't is the WH AND 40K background!
Have you ever read the recent Horus Heresy books( they are brilliant) even friends of myne who don't any Fantasy likes the background .The background is one of the strong point, that PP and Rackham will never have even with all the efforts they want to put in.
But if you are only interested in the rules, tactics( and more, fed up with GW game in itself), then change is for you.;)

Osbad
30-03-2007, 15:06
One thing, i think, the over competitors don't is the WH AND 40K background!
Have you ever read the recent Horus Heresy books( they are brilliant)

Yes, I have read two of the HH and found them to be OK formulaic 40k books. Not bad, but nothing special either. But that is just personal opinion.

What is a matter of fact is that once people have been seeing the same background for many years, many want to expand away from it. Yes a lot love it and don't want to move - good for them. For the rest though, unless you want to play LotR (which I do) all GW offer is more of the same, and for many people once you've seen one Space Marine or one Skaven you've seen 'em all.

If GW increased their effort in offering variety without destroying their offer for existing reasonably happy fans, and managed all that without hiking prices then I suspect they may have a hope. A change is as good as a rest. (Although price is still a major, massive factor:- I bought 2 Iron Fang Pikemen for WM for 11 the other day. That felt expensive but at least they were pretty chunky models, but now I see that GW are selling their latest LotR Dwarves at an even more massive premium: Durin and his henchdwarf go for 12 the pair, and a single Goblin Shaman is 6.... throw us a frikkin' bone!!)

If they don't and just issue more "retreads", then how can they expect any improvement in turnover? If despite releasing new editions of all three core games, their turnover fell in real terms in each of the last 2 years, how can they realistically expect any improvement just because they continue their existing release schedule?

It makes no sense whatsoever!

JT-Y
30-03-2007, 15:12
"Things that Games Workshop isnt" - A place to pick up girls.

Oh I dunno...
I met my missus in the GW I worked in four years ago when she ventured in out of interest!

Although I'll grant its not that easy normally :p

Tyron
30-03-2007, 16:38
Oh I dunno...
I met my missus in the GW I worked in four years ago when she ventured in out of interest!

Although I'll grant its not that easy normally :p

That is a story worth posting about!

JT-Y
30-03-2007, 18:16
No. No, it really isn't.
I'd hate to be responsible for generating another 'gamers and girls' debate.

Move along...

EarlGrey
30-03-2007, 19:23
A lot of what people are saying is simply guess work. No one except those employed at Games Workshop really know the true cost of things. From start to finish, the cost of designing, sculpting, creating, producing, and distributing a model is unknown. So to go about saying "Games workshop is greedy" without any knowledge of these costs is just plain ludicrous.

You may think you know about business, and maybe you do, but you don't know the details that have led to Games Workshop to charge what they charge.

Did you know you can get the rules for Specialist games like Epic and Battlefleet gothic for free?

Did you also know that if they make more money, grow as a company, they can invest it into making more models, better models, etc? If they just sit there doing nothing then nothing you want (whine for) will ever happen.

Asmith
30-03-2007, 19:33
Nope... no one else in the world makes injection molded pieces of plastic. How could one ever know?

Templar Ben
30-03-2007, 19:51
Be nice Asmith. :D

To be honest though there are people on the board here that work for global companies that have to handle manufacturing, supply chain management, marketing, finance and accounting. I agree that I don't know why GW does a lot of things they do. I think it is just because they are Brits and as a colonial how can I be expected to understand. :p

RampagingRavener
30-03-2007, 21:09
The background is one of the strong point, that PP and Rackham will never have even with all the efforts they want to put in.

That's a complete matter of oppinion. I've started looking into PP's stuff, and have found their background to be every bit as engaging and fascinating as GW's stuff. In some ways, I prefer it, as it's not so boringly doom-laden and miserable. It's still fairly dark in many ways, but without the repetative "Humanity is doomed!" or whatever that dominates 40k.

Plus, I like Necromancers and things like that, so I've got a major thing for the Cryx which nothing in 40k really represents, and Fantasy undead are rather generic IMO.

But, like I said above, all of that is just oppinion. You can't state that PP's fluff is definatly inferior to GW's fluff, as it's not a fact. It's purely dependant on whoever's reading it.

*wanders off back to 40k general*

Zzarchov
30-03-2007, 21:58
Be nice Asmith. :D

To be honest though there are people on the board here that work for global companies that have to handle manufacturing, supply chain management, marketing, finance and accounting. I agree that I don't know why GW does a lot of things they do. I think it is just because they are Brits and as a colonial how can I be expected to understand. :p

You know how GW doesn't pay its staff competetive wages and thus they (on average, there are exceptions) don't tend to get the best sales staff?

That happens all the way up, more so on the upper levels. Why would the best and the Brightest work for GW, when they could make dozens of times more in many instances working for Coca-Cola, Toyota, etc.. You know, BIG companies.

GW makes bad business decisions more often than some other companies because quite frankly they can't afford to staff themselves with only the best.

The game is afoot
01-04-2007, 10:50
I have to say I have given up on GW getting their act together.
I have seen nothing that indicates they are even remotely interested in connecting with the older brigade who have been loyal to them for decades other than lip service.
For a long time I have watched GW travelling this path and seen little or no deviation.
It's a real shame because I believe that if they did the few basic aspects that need attention then many of the older brigade would have stayed, and those who are leaving may think twice about it.
Under current management policies however, which date back years now, I expect the defections to continue and grow.

IronSailor
01-04-2007, 12:48
My feelings with regards to over-pricing are that people generally have a good sense of value for money and if they feel they are being ripped off they know it and are likely to complain. It's hard to justify the prices for certain models, especially some of the blisters. From what Ive seen, most people spend a certain amount of money going into a store; if the cost is increased they will simply purchase less.

From reading the boards, people in the US especially seem to be complaining about prices I dont think Ive seen anybody stating that the dollar is weak, especially compared to the pound; as a UK based company the American gamer is going to suffer and the prices are in most cases correlated to the $ - exchange rate.

A general sale would not really be a good solution for GW as I think the majority of customers, even kids would wait for the yearly sale causing very little to be sold in the preceding weeks and months. Having said this I used to love the grand openings and re-openings and the 3 for 2 offers that accompanied them enabling a cost efficient bulk buy.

One final thought it that with the influx of multi part sprues some of the specialist games would be great these days with a quick makeover. Having loads of parts for Necromunda characters would make it very popular compared to the old days when you were limited by the available miniatures. You'd only need a few miniatures for a game and add magnets or slot fitting models and injuries or enhancements are more easily implemented.

Just a few thoughts there.

Osbad
02-04-2007, 10:08
The point of a sale is to divest the retailer of slow or non-selling stock to make space for new lines. So stuff that's been lying around in the cupboard under the stairs gets dumped at 25% or more off as its otherwise going to sit around doing nothing taking up space that could be better used for more profitable wares such as the latest wizz bang release of Space Marines.

Clearly though GW believes it doesn't have any "redundant stock" lying around. Which is quite possible - GW's stores just don't reorder slow-selling items any more for instance (which is the whole rationale behind their no longer selling SG from stores nowadays), and Kirby states in the Annual Report that they have improved their stock handling procedures, which reads to me like they no longer have piles of stock hanging around the place unwanted and unloved, and are more efficient at casting stuff to order.

scratchbuilt
02-04-2007, 19:28
To save on cash I buy models from ebay.
I haven't seen any other company that approaches gw on good background, fluff, illustration or models. Many games are alot cheaper to play, yet still 40k is my favourite. 40k is better than a computer game. Although it might seem like having ones toys taken away, it is a good thing for models to become more expensive, for the same reason that designer clothes gain their value from the pricing, if they were priced ordinarily they would be worthless; the models go from silly past time to luxery / status item.

'GW dont sit in an evil tower hatching evil plots to punish its consumers'
But wouldn't it be really cool if they did.;) Like real Dark Elder!

simonr1978
02-04-2007, 19:40
Although it might seem like having ones toys taken away, it is a good thing for models to become more expensive, for the same reason that designer clothes gain their value from the pricing, if they were priced ordinarily they would be worthless; the models go from silly past time to luxery / status item.

And that is a good reason because...?

Wargames on the whole do not have the exclusivity factor to justify such prices that designer clothes do. On the whole people need clothes, people want designer clothes, people do not need wargaming figures...

You make it sound like GW is doing eveyone a favour by their pricing structure.


I haven't seen any other company that approaches gw on good background, fluff, illustration or models

I'd disagree, but that is entirely subjective. What I consider good fluff, background and illustration is probably different from yours, on the other hand what is good in those respects is probably different from what it was years ago as far as GW is concerned. For me, plenty of other companies equal or better GW in those respects, whether I or you like them as much is another matter entirely.

Grimshawl
02-04-2007, 20:03
Something that really disappointed me recently was the way Aeronautica Imperialis was released.

Here they have a fairly new product - an air combat game, There are some very nicely sculpted models for it that justify a premium price tag (unlike many of GW's now rather dated line, like the Leman Russ, or Ork buggies for instance). Yet GW let it flounder in the depths of Forgeworld's antiquated and expensive mail order.

They over-price the rulebook (35 for 17 pages of rules, 8 pages of army lists and something like 100 pages of waffle), make it mail-order only (add postage to the already ridiculous price) and basically it flutters on the ground doing nothing much altogether.

If they had done something approaching the AT-43 with online rules you can "try before you buy", a discounted boxed set you could set up and get playing with out of the box, and with more expensive, but optional "add-ons" (other army models, full rulebook, etc), and above all done a splash promotion through their stores and at discount postage through their main online store, then they might have made a few quid out of it. Even better, if they had taken the basic engine and expanded the environments in which it operated out of the 40k universe exclusively - into (say) WWII, or even just into the Warhammer world (Deathkoptas and Dragons anyone?) it would have been exciting and novel and created a buzz.

Instead they let it languish as some sort of "beardy wierdy" in the depths of Forgeworld. How pathetic is that? They just aren't even trying any more. Instead all they do is release more fething plastic space marines for the dwindling numbers of faithful, and yet another month goes by as former players drift away bored with what's on offer.

Get with the program GW. You're BORING. Do something novel (and reasonably priced) to bring us back, or you're going down!

Its because it is in the same scale and almost ties in with Epic, and the current masters of GW " HATES Epic We DO!!!" to quote Golum. Besides if the rules were tight, AKA better than 40ks shoddy system, thats another automatic strike aguanst it. GW will be trying to spoon feed the masses space marines and nothin much besides space marines untill hell freezes over or they go under.


A lot of what people are saying is simply guess work. No one except those employed at Games Workshop really know the true cost of things. From start to finish, the cost of designing, sculpting, creating, producing, and distributing a model is unknown. So to go about saying "Games workshop is greedy" without any knowledge of these costs is just plain ludicrous.

You may think you know about business, and maybe you do, but you don't know the details that have led to Games Workshop to charge what they charge.

Did you know you can get the rules for Specialist games like Epic and Battlefleet gothic for free?

Did you also know that if they make more money, grow as a company, they can invest it into making more models, better models, etc? If they just sit there doing nothing then nothing you want (whine for) will ever happen.

did you know that dispite giving the rules away online for free GW has done just about every thing else they can besides outright canning specialist games to lower support of these games?

superknijn
02-04-2007, 21:25
GW isnt evil, its just misunderstood.
(does anyone else hate these clichs?)

Ravenous
03-04-2007, 00:41
I originally said they werent run by idiots but this should say a lot.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76991

scratchbuilt
03-04-2007, 12:19
You make it sound like GW is doing eveyone a favour by their pricing structure.



You take it that way, but I'm just trying to say that a price increase doesn't mean a loss in revenue neacessarily. Compared to other businesses GW might be badly run, but unless someone here works in finance or is an economics student I think they know better than us what is good stratagy.

DonkeyMan
03-04-2007, 15:16
... a company run by gamers for gamers anymore.

Considering the size of GW, its most likely impossible to be that.
I don't think GW to be evil, bad or anything. I don't hate GW, but I also don't support them anymore (would be offtopic to explain why). I like the Warhammer World (both Fantasy and 40K) and play WFRP and eagerly await the 40K RP in 2008.

I see a company, which is strugling due to the fact that their product (and I mean Table Top Games in total) isn't as popular as it was anymore.
I see a company, which in my eyes made quite a few mistakes in recent years.
I see a company, I really don't care about at all.

The game is afoot
03-04-2007, 19:00
I don't think GW to be evil, bad or anything. I don't hate GW, but I also don't support them anymore.

Exactly my feelings as well.


I see a company, which is strugling due to the fact that their product (and I mean Table Top Games in total) isn't as popular as it was, anymore.
I see a company, which in my eyes made quite a few mistakes in recent years.
I see a company, I really don't care about at all.

Fair call.

JT-Y
03-04-2007, 20:56
Donkeyman, well said.

Time to move on for many an unhappy gamer I feel.
I'm off to paint more Victoriana Darkets Africa models...

ChrisLS
03-04-2007, 21:54
I'm curious as to where other people are playing their games, because what I'm hearing people say about competitors games being played more than GW's games just doesn't connect in my area. Quite the contrary - my favorite FLGS has had a long series of flash-in-the-pan attempts to get other game systems going in their area. I personally tried to get Flames of War rolling there, but after a brief initial interest the regulars went back to their Space Marines and Orcs & Goblins. There have been similar attempts with Confrontation, Warmachine, Hordes, and some other game for which I don't even remember the name. These games sit idle on their shelves while GW's products keep selling.

From stock levels of other local stores, I'd say it's the same thing - plenty of GW products with some bits and pieces of other games around. Events are always GW focused, with maybe one or two events for another system in a month.

I do sometimes wonder about GW's business model and if they are too married to some of their assumptions, but the basic thing they do - make really cool models and games to go with them - they are still doing very well IMO. And BTW, I do own shares of GW, and haven't sold them despite the recent dip in value.