PDA

View Full Version : Does Fantasy need more "good" armies?



Hawkmoon
22-03-2007, 14:27
Looking back at the armies I've owned in the past I realized that with exception of the lizardmen I've never owned a "good" army. So then I got to thinking about if I were to collect a new army and were to specificly go for a good army who which one would I choose.
It was at this point that I came to the conclusion that the Warhammer world has very few options when it comes to forces of good and order.

Lets look at the break down
note: I know that some of these would fall more into an armies of neutrality but lets split them up into only two for simplicities sake.

Forces of Good and Order
Empire
Bretonnia
High Elves
Dwarfs
Wood Elves
Lizardmen

Forces of Evil and Chaos
Chaos (Hordes, Daemons, Beasts)
Orcs and Goblins
Vampire Counts
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Chaos Dwarfs (should GW finally get off their duffs and release the army in full)

That's 5 good versus 8 evil,10 if you count the various armies of chaos indivdually.

So what's the deal? Where are all the good guys? I understand that from a story telling standpoint the whole being out numbered thing has a more heroic feel to it but couldn't you still have more good armies out there that didn't nessarily tilt the balance either way.

A lot of talk has gone into whether or not GW will do a Cathay or an Araby army in the future. I think that would help balance this out a bit and give players looking to run a good army another option. Anyone else feel the same way?

Voltaire
22-03-2007, 14:33
Conjecture strikes again!

Why are the Ogre Kingdoms evil? They do trade with the Empire and help those on their way to Cathay along the Ivory Road. This does not mean they are quintessentially good but it does not place them irrevocably in the evil section of things.

One could argue that the Tomb Kings simply want to keep hold of what is by all rights, theirs and not the Orcs. The great kingdoms of the Tomb Kings have never really caused crossing over between them and the likes of the Empire and Bretonnia.

You could put the Orcs and Goblins into the neutral as they have sacked the Empire before but they quite happily fight Chaos as was seen in the SoC. This does not mean an Orcs inherent intent is 'evil' - they simply enjoy having a good fight and having somewhere to live. Its just a coincidence that they are also the mortal enemies of the Dwarfs and get the evil slant on them.

Theres a lot of grey inbetween the white good and the black evil. If you want to tar WFB as White/Black then its better to be depraved and bad because it gives the 'good' armies all the more reason to fight and thus makes the game more attractive.

bdickj
22-03-2007, 14:38
What about the Slave raids of Settra on Brettonia and Tilea? I'd say they qualify as evil.

As for Lizards and Ogre Kingdoms, I'd say they are neutral.

Count de Monet
22-03-2007, 14:42
None of the "good" armies are completely good anyways, all just shades of grey. They're just strategically the defenders vs. Chaos/Orcs/Vampires/Skaven and such and are "not as bad" as those guys.

I think it would be kind of fun to have a real goody-goody force out there, full of princesses and shining knights and magic ponies and flying bunnies. :D

Voltaire
22-03-2007, 14:46
Isnt that Bretonnia though?

CommanderCax
22-03-2007, 14:50
Well, eating people sounds more 'evil' to me, than enslaving them...

Anyway, this good/evil discussion does not fit into Warhammer anyway. It is about zones of grey. The Empire burns any suspects of witchcraft at the stake, Bretonnia opresses its own people, the Asrai are xenophobic as hell, the Asur arrogant in the extreme, the Dwarfs greedy and intolerant and the Lizarmen as egocentric as one can get.

It's a grim world of perilous adventure after all... :skull:

Vomax
22-03-2007, 14:50
Isnt that Bretonnia though?

Peasants might disagree. ;)

VampireOfKhorne
22-03-2007, 14:53
I would much rather have warhammer stay as it is (various shades of grey) than to go all black and white.

Most of the armies are not decidely good or evil.

Forces of Good and Order
Empire >> "Ah, look that guys only got 7 fingers, hes a witch, lets burn him."
Bretonnia >> Because the noble born, focring the peasants to live in proverty is "good"
Wood Elves >> Killing anyone who strays onto their land...

Forces of Evil and Chaos
Chaos (Hordes, Daemons, Beasts) >> Their gods tell them to kill, if they didnt they would be punished.
Orcs and Goblins >> They attack anyone, not just the "good" guys.
Vampire Counts >> Evil? Why? They must kill to survive, just because they're killing people and not cattle makes them evil?
Tomb Kings >> I thought Tk just kinda sat in the tomb, killing anyone that tried to rob them? Why are they not in the same group as WE?
Ogre Kingdoms >> They're mercanarys, similar to VC they fight to survive.

spikedog
22-03-2007, 15:01
Although I quite like the idea of GW bringing in another good army, especially if it comes from Araby or Cathy/Nippon etc I really don't want to see another Human or Elf army. Maybe an army of goody goody monkeys is in order?

Hawkmoon
22-03-2007, 15:04
Conjecture strikes again!

indeed it does!

Like I said, a lot of the armies could fall into a neutral category. But the point is that their are fewer armies in the Warhammer world that don't hack up, eat, mutate, rape, enslave, or scare the crap out of their enemies than those who do.

I like my evil armies, I've been playing chaos since I started. I just think that the game could use another army that most would consider 'good'.
And besides, this isn't the real world after all this is fantasy!A genre that has long let you, the reader, know right from the start who the good guys and bad guys are.

As for Ogres. Any army that has things with names like Butchers, Gorgers, Maneaters and Tyrants in it aren't out to make friends.

boerk
22-03-2007, 15:33
Vampire Counts >> Evil? Why? They must kill to survive, just because they're killing people and not cattle makes them evil?


The Necrarch's want to kill everyone and make them undead. I'd say that's evil, at least as much as chaos is.

Lahmians want to rule everyone, including the other bloodlines. In other words bring back the old days.

Von Carsteins want to take over the Empire. (Then again the Empire more or less wants to take over itself as well.)

Blood Dragons just want to fight people and slay monsters. For the most part it also seems they're content with the status quo and would defend their feeding area from a threat. (In other words they want the Empire to stay the Empire and not the Ununited States of Chaos.)

And I have no clue what the Strigoi do besides brood in anger and hang out with ghouls.

So with vampire counts you have the bad (Necrarchs), the somewhat neutral (Von Carstein, Lahmia), and delusional vampires who think they're good (Blood Dragons.)

the blind knight
22-03-2007, 16:20
there is no goo dor bad army in warhammer.It is just someones point of view.Exept Empire we are bad ass -----------:p

Galadrin
22-03-2007, 16:25
I like the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay approach to the Warhammer setting. If you haven't looked into that background, then you are playing the saturday morning kids cartoon version of Warhammer! In brief: nobody is "good".

FatOlaf
22-03-2007, 16:42
So with vampire counts you have the bad (Necrarchs), the somewhat neutral (Von Carstein, Lahmia), and delusional vampires who think they're good (Blood Dragons.)


Ummm, not sure about this...VC are about as evil as you can get, they are only out for them selves, only concerned about feeding on humans and living in luxury and world domination. Read the Von Carstein trilogy and tell me that that bloodline is 'neutral'.
And as for Blood dragons they are certainly not good :wtf: they have a certain sense of chivalry in combat but are definetly not good :angel:

Important
22-03-2007, 16:49
If you ask me there is only one "evil" army and that is chaos. Their goal is to kill everything including the nature everything must be dead. When there is only chaos and the warp left they must kill themselves and make sure only thier only god is alive.

Galadrin
22-03-2007, 16:55
There have been plenty of debates about this before, but I don't think Chaos want to destroy everything. There was only one Chaos god of destruction, and he has been quietly phased out by GW in favor of the four main gods whose primary schticks are basically just corruption. My personal opinion is that Chaos just wants everything to be... well... chaotic, which entails death and rebirth equally.

@FatOlaf; right you are sir. If anyone doubts Vampires are evil, they should read the new WFRP sourcebook on Vampires, "Nights Dark Masters".

Franco
22-03-2007, 17:34
Dont release an arab army, you said good armies!!! It would be another boring army like empire that has no character. Cathay is ok, but they need to think of an army that is designed well. Not like ogres which is a bigger version of O&G, and DE arent great. But then when they are designing, they will start thinking futuristic, which is 40K. They should bring out chaos dwarfs. What do they look like, ive never seen them before???

Mazdug
22-03-2007, 17:52
If I recall Correctly, there are 3 army alignments as far as GW is concerned, Good, Neutral, and Evil, and the breakdown is as follows

GOOD
Empire
Bretonnia
High Elves
Dwarfs
Wood Elves
Lizardmen

NEUTRAL
Dogs of War
Ogre Kingdoms

EVIL
Chaos (Hordes, Daemons, Beasts)
Orcs and Goblins
Vampire Counts
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Dark Elves

This makes for a balance between good and evil, and although dogs of war seems to have more "good" units, and ogres seem to have more "evil" units, they are still basically just mercenaries and will fight for anyone good or evil, as long as they have the cash... or hamburgers. None of the armies are totally pure, but the difference lies in weather or not the race/army aspires to be good and just isn't there yet (or anymore in the case of high elves/dwarves) and if they have no real interest in bettering themselves (I include the dark elves in this because from what I gather they are egomaniacal and believe themselves perfect, and therefore have no interest in making a better society, just making everyone else recognize that their society is the best.)

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
22-03-2007, 17:54
There's more evil than good becuase everybody knows it's far more fun to not care about morals for once and to just be evil. perhalps you better check out my sig, and my name.

Bretts have peasants, so what, didn't we too? does that make our human race evil. because if so then there is no such thing as a good race.

And I've never seen chaos dwarves either, anyone got any pics?

Franco
22-03-2007, 18:02
No army is good if they start wars!!!
I would have thought there would be another column, wanna be evil.
heres my list.
Good-
-Empire
-Brettonia
-Wood Elves
-High Elves
-Dwarfs

Neutral-
-Lizardmen
-Ogre Kingdoms

Evil-
-Hordes of Choas
-Vampire Counts
-Tomb Kings
-Orcs and Goblins
-Beasts of Chaos
-Chaos Dwarfs

Wanna be's-
-Dark Elves
-Skaven

Thats my list!!!
Prob not right but it is my opinion!!!

boerk
22-03-2007, 18:02
I'll agree that vampires are "evil" in the moralistic sense of the word, but not with the GW idea of good vs. bad. They're certainly looking out for their own interests, but their interests tend to put them in the good/order camp more often than the bad/chaos camp. I mean after all, they have to make sure the food supply stays alive. :D Certainly it's not the noblest of reasons, rather a very selfish one, but it is a reason. Plus I hear Chaos follower blood isn't any good. It's one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (who may later try to conquer me) deals.

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 18:13
the Sith are a good example. they are selfish, passionate, powerful and really cool. to the jedi, they are evil, to me, they are way more realistic.
and the idea of a doomed warrior that is too powerful for his own good is awesome. vampires and chaos lords are like this, and as a result are very popular.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
22-03-2007, 18:21
I'd say wood elves are half way between good and neutral.
franco, how can you say dark elves are wanna be evil. You wouldn't be saying that if you were one of their slaves. It's not like they're doing it for attention or to turn the witches on.

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 19:08
If everyone is doomed to a horrible death, than what's the point of being a nice person?
you might as well be an evil-hearted fiend and have a good time. http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m139/dominic_carrillo/emot-awesome.gif

zak
22-03-2007, 19:26
This topic has been discussed a million times and what it has shown before and again, this time, is that very few people agree upon what is evil and what is good. This is a subjective decision based upon set values and morals.
I don't think we need any NEW armies. We have enough as it is, if you include the Chaos Dwarves, and feel that other projects need completing. A new army wouldn't necessarily need to be good or bad as long as it fits within the Warhammer World in general and offers us gamers something new.

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 19:27
like the tau! communism!http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m139/dominic_carrillo/emot-awesome.gif

Weapon
22-03-2007, 19:31
Warhammer needs less unbalanced armies with underpriced units, or completely broken army lists. There are only a couple lists I can think of that are just not as good compared to normal, well rounded lists from other armies.

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 19:49
and we need a treeman that doesnt look like crap. seeing that makes me want to do evil things in real life.

Ender Shadowkin
22-03-2007, 19:54
Well good and evil are just labels that people can debate to all eterenity, but there are certainly "alignments" to the various warhammer races that are consitently reinforced in the army books and Black library books. Forces with similar alignments will associate and may ally with each other (and neutrals), even though they occasionally fight, heck most of the armies in the warhammer world have a history of fighting with themselves (e.g. empire elector count border wars, HE civil war, WE's vs forest spirits, Chaos Smackdowns).

So if the "good and evil" terms bother you stick to order and chaos, or light and dark. The test of who is in which alignment is who will they asscoiate with. Would WE ally with Empire .. . .yes . . .how about Ogres . . .maybe . . . skaven . . .not really, they are more likely part of the Order/Light alignment. and so on.

Here is my List (based on actual army books):

Forces of Order/Light
Empire
High Elves
Wood Elves
Dwarves
Bretonnia
Lizardmen

Forces of the Neutral/Grey
DoW
Ogres

Forces of Chaos/Darkness
Chaos (duh)
Beasts of Chaos
Dark Elves (hmm they are orderly, oh well, associate with chaos gods and this is what you get)
Skaven
Orcs and Goblins (again not evil, but defiently hangs out with this crowd).
Tomb Kings
Vampire Counts

Looks like we could use another book in the top or middle list. I would like to see a truly neutral Human army such as Araby or Ind. And after that another fantasy based army that is a depature from current paradigns. Birdmen, elementals . . . whatever.

Arhalien
22-03-2007, 19:57
like the tau! communism!http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m139/dominic_carrillo/emot-awesome.gif

Looks like Thargrund isn;t the only one with that opinion :) I must tell him that someone agrees with him; that'll be a schock ;)

On topic, I don;t like the idea of armies being considered good or bad. What it is is a battle between Humans, dwarves and High elves against Chaos and pretty much anyone else who wants to join in on any side. I think that classifying armies as 'good' and 'evil is ridiculous. Of course, there are some armies which could be considered evil; the example of VC was brought up, but what they do isn't evil to them. Evil is simply our opinion of something; the Dark Elves don't consider what they do to be evil; we do because of our opinions. And therein lies the problem with classifying good and evil; there is no definitive definition of either of these 2 terms, they bnoth depend on your point of view.

In addition I don't like the idea of good vs evil; too cliched :)

Just my strange, rambling 1.1 pence (down with the domination of US-centric currency terms!)

dominic_carrillo
22-03-2007, 19:58
tomb kings arent forces of darkness. theyre the product of evil magic that awoke the dead. now they simply try to reclaim that which is theirs by right of birth and conquest. they are neutral.

Mazdug
22-03-2007, 19:59
On the subject of new armies, I would have to say rebalancing all the existing armies for 7th edition would be a better priority. Once that is done, I would say sure, if they can think of another good army to introduce that has something new to offer, they should go for it, but not because they need to balance good and evil, but because it would add something to the hobby.

boerk
22-03-2007, 20:08
On the subject of new armies, I would have to say rebalancing all the existing armies for 7th edition would be a better priority. Once that is done, I would say sure, if they can think of another good army to introduce that has something new to offer, they should go for it, but not because they need to balance good and evil, but because it would add something to the hobby.

Agreed, release new armybooks for the current armies that need them before creating a new army.

As for the balance of power it seems to me that the "good" side always manages to come out ahead, even if it is just by a bit.

Reflex
22-03-2007, 20:39
obviously rebalancing old armies comes first, i think GW got a taste of that with OK...

anyway...

you cant really put the lizards in either good, neutral or evil simply because they are doing there own thing. they are more prone to ally with "good" armies simply because they know that they can give them gold in return for them helping them and then just getting the f@#k out of there jungle lands.

so it should really be like Good, Nutral, Evil and then armies doing there own thing...

der_lex
22-03-2007, 20:59
No. Every race should have an excuse to fight any of the other races. Hence, all races should have both good and evil aspects. Gray is always more interesting than black and white anyway...

Simon23
22-03-2007, 21:07
People who desire power over others are evil. IMHO wood elves are the only race I would consider good. They just want to be left alone! The social structure is also very focussed on liberty and union with nature. Awww how nice. :)

The empire is a crazed aristocracy.

Bretonnia is a feudalistic hellhole.

Dwarves are greedy drunks who smell and only care about "grudges"....they're like an army of rab c nesbitts! :D

High Elves are mostly good... about as good as the asrai. :)

The rest are pretty evidently evil.

diehard0123
22-03-2007, 21:10
tomb kings arent forces of darkness. theyre the product of evil magic that awoke the dead. now they simply try to reclaim that which is theirs by right of birth and conquest. they are neutral.

I agree, Read thier background, they are a race met by unfotunate events. If you were awaken after thousands of years to find that everything you had was plundered you would be a bit grumpy too! If you put the Dwarfs as good and tomb kings as evil its crazy because they are of the same thinking. They may have different beliefs but they have travelled simmilar paths in that there civilizations have been reduced to nothing and they want to reclaim what is theirs. The Tomb Kings are a grudge army!

Ender Shadowkin
22-03-2007, 21:52
I agree, Read thier background, they are a race met by unfotunate events. If you were awaken after thousands of years to find that everything you had was plundered you would be a bit grumpy too! ....... The Tomb Kings are a grudge army!

Pure TK propaganda ;) . TK are an abomination against nature, thus it is the resposibilities of the forces of light/order to destroy them. Now it's not their fault, but such is there lot in life/death. :D

Setra's not exactly Mahdma Ghandi either . . . he's looking to expand as well . . .

Anyway the true test of where they belong is who they could associate with. None of the Traditional "good/order/light" armies will have anything to do with them, no matter what. But the other guys would be happy to fight with them if they had a common goal. So those are the guys they belong with. I feel bad for them I really do, somethimes unlife just sucks.

LaughinGremlin
22-03-2007, 22:20
Pure TK propaganda ;) . TK are an abomination against nature, thus it is the resposibilities of the forces of light/order to destroy them. Now it's not their fault, but such is there lot in life/death. :D

Setra's not exactly Mahdma Ghandi either . . . he's looking to expand as well . . .


Spoken like a true Sigmarite:
"I'm right and you're wrong. I'm good and you're evil."
translation: We're going to kill all of the other races so we can have their lands. Killing them and forgetting that they ever existed is much less evil than enslaving them and taking them back to our home turf.

conclusion: Dark Elves are less evil than the Empire.

DarkAngel74
23-03-2007, 04:34
Can anybody tell me why TK, who are just running their own empire just as the Empire or Bretonnia does, and O&G, who just runs around fighting everybody, are evil?

Besides, this whole good/evil thing is stupid, if you ask me. In international politics, there is no good and evil. There are just allies and enemies. State itself can never be good or evil. The most 'good' state would be a state that works hard for the benefit of its citizens, whether its slavery or expansion. In such aspect, if slave economy serves well for wellness of Druchii nation, than DE is good. In conclusion, the standard of determining good or bad for a state or an armed organization is their beneficiency towards their members, not morality. Period. Speaking like the chief chimpanzee in White House, for Buddha's sake.

spacedwarv
23-03-2007, 04:39
I believe that they don't need a good army but a slightly whiter shade of grey, something like the wood elves but not hippies.

Simon23
23-03-2007, 04:47
In international politics, there is no good and evil. There are just allies and enemies. State itself can never be good or evil.

I REALLY disagree my friend. I say that as an international relations student! ;)

Jhayden
23-03-2007, 04:51
The Good--
High Elves (Only race I see as actually truly aiming for peace on a grand scale. Rather pompous but generally the only truly good people)

The Good Natured Neutral--
Empire (Expansion is never good. Should stick to their own lands and stop burning people because they can cast spells)
Brettonians (The french)
Dwarves (Stubborn and unforgiving)

The True Neutral--
Wood Elves (stick to their lands and ANYONE caught crossing is dealt with)
Lizardmen (stick to their lands and admire their own mastery of everything they do)
Tomb Kings (Undead but stick to their lands. Only wish to return to their former state)

The Dark Natured Neutral--
Ogres (They're ogres. They eat stuff and whore themselves out to eat more stuff, but get paid for it)
Orcs/Gobbos (Fight fight fight fight fight. That's all they do. Not necessarily evil but incredibly single-minded and nomadic)

The Evil--
All of Chaos (They're chaos)
Dark Elves (They're the polar opposites of High Elves)
Skaven (World domination)

snurl
23-03-2007, 07:17
Without any evil there can't be any good, so it must be good to be evil somehow. - Stone and Parker

Yes, I think that another human / good-to neutral army would fit in nicely. I think that the Border Princes or Araby or Cathay would make a fine addition to the WHFB game world.

stonefox
23-03-2007, 12:59
Warhammer could always do with a steampunk version of Tau (omg anime). Science, reason, and unity for all.

Grymlok
23-03-2007, 14:39
If they introduced a new army I'd like to see something based on the New Zealand Maori's. Saying that, you'd need to be pretty nifty with a paintbrush to pull off the tattoo paterns.

They could be discovered living on some island off of Lustria or somewhere.

DesertDirge
23-03-2007, 15:24
Good, Evil.. it all depends on what side of the fence your on! ;)

If I had to lable them I'd put them like this...

Good= LizardMen, Highelves,Dwarves,Brets,Woodelves,Empire

Nuetral=Empire,O&G's,Ogre's,TK,Vampire Counts

Evil= Chaos,Beasts,DarkElves,Skaven,Vamps,Fishmen

Franco
23-03-2007, 17:50
I'd say wood elves are half way between good and neutral.
franco, how can you say dark elves are wanna be evil. You wouldn't be saying that if you were one of their slaves. It's not like they're doing it for attention or to turn the witches on.

It is a 100% chance of me not being a dark elf slave. THEY AREN'T REAL!!! I think i have had to tell you this before Naggarothy, so please dont have to make me say it again. I know you might believe in them, and maybe santa aswell but aventually you will find out that they dont have a heart or a brain or any living thing on them!!! (unless you have left them outside and fungus is growing on them) Can i ask you a personal question, Naggarothy. How old are you???
Back to the subject, i do think there should be a wanna be evil and DE sould be cemented in that no. 1 spot!!! WE should be in no catagory, because they dont give a crap about what is happening until someone insults them or comes in Athel Loren!!! (That comment is what they are based on, not what they have told me because THEY AREN'T LIVING THINGS!!!)

DesertDirge
23-03-2007, 18:14
chill dude! I don't think it was an insult.:rolleyes:

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
23-03-2007, 18:45
I think Jhayden's list is the best one so far.
Franco, I was just saying that you are just saying stuff about DE because you play against them, that's pretty childish. If you must know I'm 13. what about you?

Franco
23-03-2007, 18:55
I think Jhayden's list is the best one so far.
Franco, I was just saying that you are just saying stuff about DE because you play against them, that's pretty childish. If you must know I'm 13. what about you?

Actually i mainly battle against dwarfs, and my DE friend has gone to australia for a few months so i dont think i will be battling with him for a while. To be honest, i wouldnt have been interested in DE if i didnt have a friend who has DE, i just dislike them and hate how the people who use them think they are great!!! Im 18 and going to uni soon in italy. I wont be battling with DE for 4 yrs!!! Childish, no!!! Just annoyed that you will not let me give my opinion without getting an argument of you!!!

Arhalien
23-03-2007, 19:02
Haven;t we had this argument before? :p

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
23-03-2007, 19:46
the point is franco that you're the only person in this world that would think that Dark elves are wanna be evil. If that's your real opinion then fine, but I'm not sure it is.

Arhalien, there's no harm in it, I'd call it a debate.

oh yeah and stop taking the mic (Franco) of course i dont think they're real so get it out of your head, there's no harm in talking about it like i did. if so then why are you making judgements about a race that doesn't exist, your judgement wouldn't be justified without experiencing the dark elves' slavery, and since that can't happen, dont judge.

superczhunk
23-03-2007, 20:14
The allying chart from 6th edition gives you an idea of what armies are good and bad. Lizardmen, TK, Ogres and DoW all seem to be neutral-good while the rest are obvious in terms of the traditional roles of good guys and bad guys.

I'm not quite sure if more 'good' armies are needed, it's just that the evil armies tend to have more visually appealing traits and models. I think the direction they took with the empire was a good one (much more heroic looking), although the empire soldiers are terrible.

dominic_carrillo
23-03-2007, 20:58
If they introduced a new army I'd like to see something based on the New Zealand Maori's. Saying that, you'd need to be pretty nifty with a paintbrush to pull off the tattoo paterns.

They could be discovered living on some island off of Lustria or somewhere.

then, the equivalent of Captain Cook and his men (the empire) will open fire and kill them. :)

Felworth
23-03-2007, 21:37
Well, thats just grand.

Countless centuries of Orcs and Goblins threatening the stability and lives of Men, Elves and Dwarves... and now we've been regulated to 'neutral'.

This is Grimgor's fault. You dont march an army out to Middenheim just to smack around the latest champion of chaos before wandering off into the setting sun. Leaves a bad precident. Now folks will expect Orcs and Gobbos to ride out to the Empire's defense everytime...

What happened to us? Didnt we used to be a threat?

ZeroTwentythree
23-03-2007, 21:45
Hahaha.

Just for that, I'm going to start an O&G army and paint them all in pink dresses!

javaguru
23-03-2007, 22:02
The problem is that people are applying modern morality to a dark fantasy world. There is no "good" race as defined by modern morality. Civilians would often suffer at the hands of "friendly" troops as much as at the hands of their enemies.

Delusionist
23-03-2007, 23:55
Hm....

I'd say no race could be classed good, as they all are pretty twisted inside.

From a gaming point of view Empire are somewhat good, and I guess bretonnian guys are too. Elves don't seem to give a damn about anyone else atm, so I'd say they are neutral. TK are not evil in any way, who wouldn't defend themselves if they were attacked. So what if people think they have been dead for thousands (not sure for how long) years. VC seem pretty bad to me, while O&G are neutral (they are closer to animals, and I don't see animals being anything else than neutral). Chaos are indeed the bad guys here.

From a historical point of view (mixed with my own opinnions) I'd say Chaos are good, while the Enpire is the true enemy. DE are really bad (no one likes slavary, right?), and the other two elven people are neutral. LM are also good guys, and if WH follows our history I'll feel reeeally sorry for these guys.

StarFyreXXX
24-03-2007, 00:27
Lizardmen are more neutral..i'd say a lawful neutral...believe in order of the universe..and don't really care what happens as long as their is balance.

Sanjay

boerk
24-03-2007, 01:19
I think part of the problem is defining what makes an army "good" and what makes it "evil." In our time the concept of "good and evil" mostly depends on our ethics, morals, and whoever we're at war with. Good and Evil represent opinions more than facts. (Sue me I'm a nihilist.) But when classifying warhammer armies as good or evil we'd have to be using facts and not applying our current era opinions. Afterall, it is a fantasy world. We'd also have view "Good and Evil" in a third person perspective when applying the terms to the warhammer world as opposed to the first person perspective we use normally.

From what I've seen it appears that Chaos and the like are "Evil" (or to get away from that moral debate "the bad guys".) While those that fight Chaos are "Good" (or the "good guys".)

As for the original question, I do not think fantasy needs anymore armies at the moment. I just don't see where they could expand, the "fantasy type" races are basically done, leaving only possible human variants. The humans already have two armies (3 if you count mortal chaos) and I worry that adding anymore human armies will turn into a space marine effect. (Similiar overall but each army gets a new rule/unit.)

javaguru
24-03-2007, 05:29
Warhammer isn't about good and evil. It's about order and disorder.

Hawkmoon
24-03-2007, 13:08
Dear God, what have I done!!! It's like I opened a pandora's box with this question!
Let me just say that I realize that by the standards of our world, very few people could claim they believed any of the armies in the WHFB were what we would call good. Even the ones that don't eat babies.

Perhaps using the word "good" was a mistake on my part. Now that I think about it and have read many of your posts. (some of you are pretty talented debaters I must say) perhaps the title would have been better off reading "Does Fantasy need more armies of Order?".

The creators of Warhammer fantasy were heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock. So much so that they, Like Moorcock, set up their world with the myriad races and nations representing various shades of Law, Chaos and Neutrality. This being the case it is rather difficult to point at an army and say this a "good" army. My bad! :angel:

That being said I still think that the warhammer world could use one more army of order or perhaps a lighter shade of neutrality. As for those who said that GW should focus on fixing the armies they have I can only say this. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHa!!! GW will NEVER "fix" any army to the point that will please even half of the people who play that army. It's just not possible considering the differences in what people want for their armies. Not to mention the inevitable f%@# up factor that comes with any GW product. So since I can't have an army that is perfectly balanced I'll take another army to waste my hard earned money on.


As for the original question, I do not think fantasy needs anymore armies at the moment. I just don't see where they could expand, the "fantasy type" races are basically done, leaving only possible human variants. The humans already have two armies (3 if you count mortal chaos) and I worry that adding anymore human armies will turn into a space marine effect. (Similiar overall but each army gets a new rule/unit.)

What about Elves though? For a dying race they have 3 different armies. I don't understand why everyone is so down on humans. What else is left? Dogmen? Catmen? Elephantmen?! After a while the world will become like a *******' Zoo!

Aelyn
24-03-2007, 13:15
What about Elves though? For a dying race they have 3 different armies. I don't understand why everyone is so down on humans. What else is left? Dogmen? Catmen? Elephantmen?! After a while the world will become like a *******' Zoo!
Absolutely agreed! I think there should be roughly a 50/50 split "basically human" and "basically nonhuman", which there pretty much is right now:

Basically human:

Mortals of Chaos
Empire
DoW (essentially)
Bretonnia
High Elves
Wood Elves
Dark Elves
Dwarves

Basically nonhuman:

Beasts of Chaos
Daemons
Skaven
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

I feel that, if and when a new army comes out, it should be human or dwarf and leaning towards the lighter side of neutral. Dwarves will be tough to fit in like that, so I'm thinking if a new army came out, it should probably be Kislev. As I understand the fluff they're really not close to the Empire at all in army design, and I very much doubt they'd suddenly make a Marine-style love of one species suddenly spring up.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
24-03-2007, 13:23
when people say that we are judging the world on our own morals, I fail to see how their morals would be any different.
All living things wish to avoid pain, because everyone hates it and knows it's a bad thing, so people that delibereately cause pain (or other such bad things) are doing something bad or evil. It's hard to explain. I'm sure the 'evil races' know they are evil and judge themself to be evil. You could say that dark elves are only doing what we do, killing and enslaving beasts of lower value. but at the end of the day, the other races of the old world are not animals. dark elves ENJOY inflicting pain, we do not.
I hope what I said makes a bit of sense.