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RaZeR
28-07-2005, 04:52
I'm considering using this list, because I'm bored of my slow saurus getting flanked etc because I'm a bad player :)
I thought i'd try a faster list with no saurus, but when I posted it on a different forum, someone said that it was cheesy and unbalanced. I understand that it has a lot of special troops, but the other option is a load more skinks, which IMO is worse.

So what do you think of the army as a whole, and do you think its cheesy??

thanks.

Saurus Oldblood 303pts (Lord)
Light Armour; Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent; Maiming Shield; Charm of the Jaguar Warrior; Tlazcotl; Quetzl; Sotek

Saurus Scar-Veteran 179pts (Hero)
Great Weapon; Light Armour; Venom of the Firefly Frog; Aura of Quetzl; Cold One; Quetzl; Sotek

Skink Priest 135pts (Hero)
Level 2 Wizard; Diadem of Power

Skink Priest 115pts (Hero)
Dispel Scroll(x2)


10 x Skink Skirmishers 60pts (Core)

10 x Skink Skirmishers 60pts (Core)

10 x Skink Skirmishers 70pts (Core)
Scouts, Blowpipes

10 x Skink Skirmishers 60pts (Core)


3 x Kroxigor 174pts (Special)

3 x Kroxigor 174pts (Special)

8 x Saurus Cavalry 370pts (Special)
Musician; Champion; Standard Bearer; Sun Standard of Chotec

3 x Terradons 105pts (Special)


3 x Salamander Hunting Packs 195pts (Rare)

fubukii
28-07-2005, 05:20
ehhh saurus calvary ewwww :(

my list something more like this

old blood 328
3 shams 400
30 skinks 180
10 skinks 60
20 skin scouts 140
8 terradons 280
6 salamanders 390
4 krox
14 skinks

key is to combine any of your "hard" hitting units into one target at a time. for me this would be my kroxigors, The oldblood, and a rear charge from terradons.
i know the lsit is vague but its a total of 2k and works decently if played right

He Who Laughs
28-07-2005, 06:53
Okay, I'm not sure of the points values - but here are a few suggestions from a grizzled old lizardmen vet:

Bigger Skink units - at least 12-15 strong, and sod the blowpipes - although javs are short-ranged, they almost always hit on 4+, and the 6+ save vs shooting, and 5+ save vs hth is a real bonus.

Bigger Krox and Terradon units. Never, and I mean never, field Krox's or Terradons in less than units of four. You can get away with not having an Ancient for the Kroxs, but always have a Brave for the Terradons.

Btw: I'm a bit confused by your list fubukii - 30 skinks? You realise you can have max 25 in a unit? And eight Terradons?!? Does this actually work?? I mean, they're only Unit Strength:1 each, and with a 50x50 base, you'll hardly get them all in base to base contact when you charge. Oh well, if it works for you...

Good luck with it - and no it's not cheese - what your whinging opponents don't realise is that Skinks are T2, and die so quickly when caught... it just catching them thats the tricky bit :D

fubukii
28-07-2005, 07:15
well i got lazy with typin out the list, its 30 skinks total, 3 units of 10. then 1 units of 10 skink scouts. at the end i had some points leftover so i threw in 14 more skinks. the terradons are in 2 units for 4. salamanders are in packs of 3.
so in total

it could look something like this if i broken it up better
1 old blood (Cold one, +1 dispel dice, +1 attack on charge, Revered blade of tzunki, glyph necklace, light armor shield)
1 sham 1 sham 1 sham (cube of darkness, 2 scrolls i gave one scoutin ability)
11 skinks
11 skinks
11 skinks
11 skinks
10 skink scouts
10 skink scouts
4 terradons
4 terradons
4 kroxigors
3 salamanders
3 salamanders

Kalanic
28-07-2005, 08:11
Yeah, I wouldn't maybe label it "cheese" or whatever as those words have such bad connotations, but I guess I'd say that if I were going against this list, I would think it would make for a game that wasn't as fun as fielding what most would call a "balanced" list. The list seems on the same lines as an "Empire Gunline" nothing illegal about it and yeah, it has little hth power and leadership poblems, but most people find it not a fun army to play with.

Field it if that's what you want to do or if it's to change it up some, it's all good, but just be aware that you opponents may look down upon a list make up such as yours.

Frankly
28-07-2005, 08:43
I play a simplar list, I tell you now that your not going to make many friends playing a list like this all the time.

Atleast your not using 6 salamanders. cheezy.

fubukii
28-07-2005, 09:18
:( im cheesey sigh

oh well at least no one is commenting on my all necromancer vc list :x

RaZeR
28-07-2005, 10:20
Fubukii, i'm using saurus cav because i've never used them before, and i wanted a hard hitting unit... with the scar vet in there, i have a US18, fear causing, hard hitting unit. oh yeah, and they have the banner of huanchi now, not the sun standard. :)

He Who Laughs, larger skink units are an idea... i generally play 10s and they work alright normally. most of my opponents dont bother shooting my skinks, and if they get into combat, well, 10, 12, 15, they're still going to get crushed!
i might look into it though.

as regards the krox and terradons, again i've never played more than 3 krox in a unit... generally works alright, i would have thought the frontage of 4 might be a bit unmanouverable... plus io only own 6, i dont really want to get more, but if i cut out a unit i might increase the other one to 4.
as regards, terradons, i dont actually have any models, and i've never played them before. however, i was under the impression that 3 was enough, again for the frontage issue. however, 4 isnt a big deal to buy, do you think that would do better??

Frankly, i wouldnt use 6 sallies. they are great, and i love them, but 3 is enough i reckon :) (at 2k, ofc...)

anyways, thanks for the input guys.
i'll change the list slightly and get back to you :)

RaZeR
28-07-2005, 10:30
oh yeah, and as regards the champions, why would i give the terradons a brave??
what purpose does it serve? :)

and blowpipes... well i've generally found that they work quite nicely on my scouting skinks. they dont move much, so the double shot works quite often. i'd rather have 20 shots hitting on 6s than 10 shots hitting on 5s, because of the poison :)
but my screens will be moving, so have javelins

thanks

RaZeR
28-07-2005, 11:01
OOOKKK
so would this go down better?? (i've decided to use my support units to support something, and added saurus anyway)
This unfortunately meant i couldnt afford to add a krox or a terradon, as i intended to. i have increased my screening skinks to 14 though, with a few spare points. 14 and 10 was the most cost effective way to do my skink units and still fit in 2000...


Saurus Oldblood 303pts (Lord)
Light Armour; Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent; Maiming Shield; Charm of the Jaguar Warrior; Sotek; Quetzl; Tlazcotl

Saurus Scar-Veteran 179pts (Hero)
Great Weapon; Light Armour; Venom of the Firefly Frog; Aura of Quetzl; Cold One; Quetzl

Skink Priest 135pts (Hero)
Level 2 Wizard; Diadem of Power

Skink Priest 115pts (Hero)
Dispel Scroll(x2)


20 x Saurus Warriors 270pts (Core)
Hand Weapon; Shield; Musician; Champion; Standard Bearer

10 x Skink Skirmishers 70pts (Core)
Blowpipe; Scout

14 x Skink Skirmishers 84pts (Core)
Javelin & Shield


3 x Kroxigor 174pts (Special)

8 x Saurus Cavalry 370pts (Special)
Musician; Champion; Standard Bearer; Blessed Totem of Huanchi

3 x Terradons 105pts (Special)


3 x Salamander Hunting Packs 195pts (Rare)


Thanks again

fubukii
28-07-2005, 19:50
give the scara better weapon, and a ward save.


err edit i meant give the old blood a better wpn and a ward not the vet :)

Kalanic
28-07-2005, 20:11
I like your second list a lot actually....you still got a nice number of skinks on the field, and the Saurus unit gives you a bit of "balance" while not really hurting you at all. I also especially like your inclusion of the Saurus Cav...too many people don't play with them so ya get big kudos from me for all that's worth..lol

Megilain
28-07-2005, 20:35
Just remember that if you want to mount a saurus hero on a cold one or carnosaur, he has to have the spawning of itzl...

Both lists look ok, but on the second list, have you considered taking a second unit of saurus cavalry instead of the sauruses on foot. With 275 points you could get a unit of seven cavalry sauruses with musician and standard. Of course this would mean that you would have to take another core unit, but this could be accomplished quite easily with making the screen ten wide, removing the spawnin of quetzl from the Veteran as he already has 2+ save and 4+ ward to any attacks that jeopardizes that save and by removing the Maiming shield, your oldblood already has eight attacks on a charge, how much more can he need. :) This would release just enough points for another squad of ten skinks. Not only would this make your army more mobile and with more units, it would also reduce the amount of points on characters which in a list like this is almost always a good thing. Saurus cavalry is often under-appreciated, but two units of 8 can be a fearsome sight and boy do they pack a punch...

Kerill
29-07-2005, 03:24
I wouldnt say its cheesey, but it certainly isnt fluffy either. but where are you putting your oldblood? on his own or with a unit?

The many attacks is cool, especially against infantry but he won't win a combat on his own against heavy cavalry (2+ save or better, with or without hero- he will kill 2 on average but not have US, standard or musician) although if he doesnt break he is likely to whittle the enemy unit down fast enough.

Against shooty armies I think you would suffer a bit but there are few shooty armies left it seems so its isnt too much of a worry. If your opponent keeps a small unit of medium/ heavy cavalry to protect his shooters they will also be defended against skinks.

Also a rear charge from 3 terradons does nothing- they dont negate rasnks or get +2 combat resolution for rear charges. If you want to use them for the latter you will need to boost the unit size to at least 5. They will cause some casualties though so if thats your plan tis cool.

I think the main problem with your newer list is the possibility of your opponent targeting one hitty unit at a time- you have three (plus salamanders) The old blood, Krox and cavalry.

Lizardmen have some great combos, its sad they are one of the races I don't play, just never liked their fluff.

RaZeR
29-07-2005, 03:28
Cheers guys
Fubukii, i really like my oldblood liuke this, i've used him lots with lots of success... 9S5 attacks on the charge with WS6 just eats units... i've been considering making him a bit more of a character killing lod, but i think i'll leave him as is for the moment...

Kalanic, normally i'd take 30 skinks in a 2k list, so i'll see how i go with only 24... :) but thanks for the support, i'm beginning to like the list as well... slow but steady saurus to take charges etc, supported by flank charges from either krox, cold ones or oldblood :) cool!

Megilain, thats true... when i copy and paste from the armybuilder, it doesnt show spawnings, so i just tried to remember which ones he had. He actually has itzl and quetzl, i believe :)
i hadnt really thought of another unit of cav no... i havent played with them before, and this was more a list to test them out. 2 units might be bringing back that 'unbalanced' factor...

RaZeR
29-07-2005, 03:37
I wouldnt say its cheesey, but it certainly isnt fluffy either. but where are you putting your oldblood? on his own or with a unit?

The many attacks is cool, especially against infantry but he won't win a combat on his own against heavy cavalry (2+ save or better, with or without hero- he will kill 2 on average but not have US, standard or musician) although if he doesnt break he is likely to whittle the enemy unit down fast enough.

He's on his own... the plan is not really to use him against ranked units (unless they are already in combat) or against heavy cavalry, he's there to hunt things like skirmishers, light cavalry, warhounds, mages, small units of missile troops, etc etc... or to get a rear charge onto a ranked unit, perhaps... (havent seen the book for a long time, would he negate ranks?)


Against shooty armies I think you would suffer a bit but there are few shooty armies left it seems so its isnt too much of a worry. If your opponent keeps a small unit of medium/ heavy cavalry to protect his shooters they will also be defended against skinks.

possibly, but with luck i can use my terradons against war machines, and my oldblood as well is very useful for that.


Also a rear charge from 3 terradons does nothing- they dont negate rasnks or get +2 combat resolution for rear charges. If you want to use them for the latter you will need to boost the unit size to at least 5. They will cause some casualties though so if thats your plan tis cool.

they are mainly there for war machine/missile troop hunting. i'd use them quite carefully as regards charging ranked units...


I think the main problem with your newer list is the possibility of your opponent targeting one hitty unit at a time- you have three (plus salamanders) The old blood, Krox and cavalry.

Well, the krox i'll try to keep screened by the skinks, which they can also charge through. the oldblood is going to be very mobile, what with the single character rules... hopefully i can keep him out of trouble... and the cavalry... well yeah, but thats to be expected. hopefully i can keep them alive long enough to achieve something!


Lizardmen have some great combos, its sad they are one of the races I don't play, just never liked their fluff.

yeah they do :)
harsh, i quite like it...

thanks

fubukii
29-07-2005, 05:50
i see well what matters if what you prefer, im more of a 6 str 6 attacks ignore armor save type myself :)

RaZeR
29-07-2005, 08:55
ok.. yeah thats not a bad way to do it... i'm not a great fan of the blade of revered tzunki though, i could give him a GW for so much less, and have 6S7 attacks... S7 deals with most armour quite nicely...

i might consider something like, sword of might, maiming shield, aura of quetzl, possibly... thats 7S6 attacks on the charge and gets him a ward save...
hmmm might run some calculations on that :)

Kerill
29-07-2005, 10:56
Surely thats 6 S7/S6 attacks and one attack at his basic strength (5) from the maiming shield?

RaZeR
29-07-2005, 11:02
hmmm yeah that's probably right :D
well spotted...

Frankly
29-07-2005, 15:55
I prefer a GW, turns him into a can opening H.cavalry killer, one of the big threatening units for mobile L.M. It's the best weapon you can get him for its points cost IMO.

A fully decked out Old Blood is pretty cool to play with though, I have to say.

On the whole, I use my Old blood mainly for his L.d. value more than anything, its more important to keep the army moving then stagnated through panic, so I keep my Old Blood pretty tooled down, and defensive, most people are pretty frightened of what you can do, so the fear factor alone is worth having him uncommiting in the opening stages. Later in the game he'll come in and support, perhaps clean up a mess or two, but L.d. for me is his major rule.

fubukii
29-07-2005, 18:39
another good combo for a old blood is gw, glyph necklace, banehead, enchated shield :)

makes him quite the character killer.

Frankly
30-07-2005, 04:22
Remeber he cna't use a GW and enchanted shield at the same time.

I prefer aura of Quetzl, str4 hits his toughness 5 and armour save can shrug off, but str5 and higher will beat him up.

I like bane head on an old blood on a cold one in a unit with Huanchi's blessed totem. He'll can really get to his man then.

Piranha Blade + Bane head is the best character kill IMO.

fubukii
30-07-2005, 04:30
yea i know he cant use both its just for a better save vs shooting really.

RaZeR
30-07-2005, 06:32
all good combinations :D
i'm a fan of the aura of quetzl over the glyph necklace as well...

if i want a character killing OB, i'll probably go with the sword of the hornet, bane head, maiming shield, aura of quetzl (unless thats 105 pts, cant remember off hand)
but for now i want a unit killer! :D

Frankly
30-07-2005, 14:11
yea i know he cant use both its just for a better save vs shooting really.


true, true.

Tobias
30-07-2005, 19:13
I'm considering using this list, because I'm bored of my slow saurus getting flanked etc because I'm a bad player :)
I thought i'd try a faster list with no saurus, but when I posted it on a different forum, someone said that it was cheesy and unbalanced. I understand that it has a lot of special troops, but the other option is a load more skinks, which IMO is worse.

So what do you think of the army as a whole, and do you think its cheesy??

thanks.

Saurus Oldblood 303pts (Lord)
Light Armour; Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent; Maiming Shield; Charm of the Jaguar Warrior; Tlazcotl; Quetzl; Sotek

don't take him take another scar veteran on a cold one

Saurus Scar-Veteran 179pts (Hero)
Great Weapon; Light Armour; Venom of the Firefly Frog; Aura of Quetzl; Cold One; Quetzl; Sotek

Skink Priest 135pts (Hero)
Level 2 Wizard; Diadem of Power

Skink Priest 115pts (Hero)
Dispel Scroll(x2)


10 x Skink Skirmishers 60pts (Core)

10 x Skink Skirmishers 60pts (Core)

10 x Skink Skirmishers 70pts (Core)
Scouts, Blowpipes

10 x Skink Skirmishers 60pts (Core)


3 x Kroxigor 174pts (Special)

3 x Kroxigor 174pts (Special)

lose one unit kroxigor and make the other unit 4

8 x Saurus Cavalry 370pts (Special)
Musician; Champion; Standard Bearer; Sun Standard of Chotec

make them 5, give them banner of huanchi

3 x Terradons 105pts (Special)


3 x Salamander Hunting Packs 195pts (Rare)

Now take a stegadon, it's such a good distraction :) theyw ill shoot him instead of the kroxigor and saurus cav

banner of huanchi on saurus cav, so you always screen them with skinks :)

fubukii
31-07-2005, 00:48
all good combinations :D
i'm a fan of the aura of quetzl over the glyph necklace as well...

if i want a character killing OB, i'll probably go with the sword of the hornet, bane head, maiming shield, aura of quetzl (unless thats 105 pts, cant remember off hand)
but for now i want a unit killer! :D


problem is str5 is only -2 save so any decent character will have a 1-2+ save so they will take a 3-4+ then a ward. Seems a lil iffy to me :(

RaZeR
31-07-2005, 07:48
true but his intitative is normally a problem... see
this is why i go for a unit killer :D

and tobias, please have a look at the newer version of the list, but thanks for the comments anyway :)

Tobias
31-07-2005, 13:44
OOOKKK
so would this go down better?? (i've decided to use my support units to support something, and added saurus anyway)
This unfortunately meant i couldnt afford to add a krox or a terradon, as i intended to. i have increased my screening skinks to 14 though, with a few spare points. 14 and 10 was the most cost effective way to do my skink units and still fit in 2000...


Saurus Oldblood 303pts (Lord)
Light Armour; Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent; Maiming Shield; Charm of the Jaguar Warrior; Sotek; Quetzl; Tlazcotl

make him a scar veteran, this is too much points

Saurus Scar-Veteran 179pts (Hero)
Great Weapon; Light Armour; Venom of the Firefly Frog; Aura of Quetzl; Cold One; Quetzl

just make him a cheap hero IMO much better for its points...

Skink Priest 135pts (Hero)
Level 2 Wizard; Diadem of Power

Skink Priest 115pts (Hero)
Dispel Scroll(x2)


20 x Saurus Warriors 270pts (Core)
Hand Weapon; Shield; Musician; Champion; Standard Bearer

10 x Skink Skirmishers 70pts (Core)
Blowpipe; Scout

14 x Skink Skirmishers 84pts (Core)
Javelin & Shield


one unit sarusus is something you can ignore lose it or take a 2nd

3 x Kroxigor 174pts (Special)

8 x Saurus Cavalry 370pts (Special)
Musician; Champion; Standard Bearer; Blessed Totem of Huanchi

3 x Terradons 105pts (Special)

kroxigor always 4, saurus cav always 6 with charachter and a skinks screen infront of it :)


3 x Salamander Hunting Packs 195pts (Rare)


Thanks again

Change what you want, but try to make it overall work

RaZeR
01-08-2005, 00:06
"make him a scar veteran, this is too much points"
Nah, sorry... i really like this oldblood, and he always works like a charm for me. he's taken out units of 4 bulls, 3 yhettees, 4 ironguts, 6 centigor, 3 nurgle minotaurs, an 8/11 beast herd, loads of mages, and even took out a unit of black orcs by himself, charging in the front...to name but a few! so this is the one thing i'm not going to change, sorry :D

"just make him a cheap hero IMO much better for its points..."
I might lose the aura of quetzl if i need points for something... but the GW venom combination is very good IMO, and the spawning will hopefully help keep him alive...

"one unit sarusus is something you can ignore lose it or take a 2nd"
Hell if someone ignores a unit of 20 saurus, thats fine by me. they might regret it though...

"kroxigor always 4, saurus cav always 6 with charachter and a skinks screen infront of it"
4 krox i normally find unwieldy... 3 normally work out alright for me, but i would also like to take 2 units of 3... hmmm...
as regards the cav, i wouldnt drop them to 6, i dont see a point in a unit of 7 including a character.. but i might drop to 7 so that its a unit of 8 including the character...
that would give me enough for another unit of skinks, i believe...

might do that :D

Tobias
01-08-2005, 08:13
no never 8,
I ment you get 5 saurus cav with hero 6 is max attacks on front :)

You can ignore 20 saurus with ease just destroy the support units and you outflank them easily

If you really want an oldblood, just give him great weapon and not an expensive magic weapon, charm of the jaguar warrior adn aruo of quetzl ... But believe me, a scar veteran is also good in his purpose the main actof them is killing chariots, yours can't do tha tin one hit ;)

And the cheaper scar veteran just do it, you have a great weapon almost everything you hit will wound ... :P You charge so there won't be any attacking back on him so that auro of quetzl is a shame, with 11 S5 atacks, 4(5) S7 attacks and 6 S4 attacks, you most of the time win cc, and sometimes will outnumber too, so also no need for a 2nd cc :)

RaZeR
01-08-2005, 09:42
no never 8,
I ment you get 5 saurus cav with hero 6 is max attacks on front :)

hmmm
its a possibility, but i'm also up for the old outnumbering with fear causing enemy... with US18 this is a possibility, but not with US12... however, i'll bear that in mind :D


You can ignore 20 saurus with ease just destroy the support units and you outflank them easily

yeah but when the support units are all fast and protecting eachother, its harder to destroy them... however, i'll keep that in mind
ofc, if there are 2 units of saurus, there are fewer support units, so its even easier to destroy them...


If you really want an oldblood, just give him great weapon and not an expensive magic weapon, charm of the jaguar warrior adn aruo of quetzl ... But believe me, a scar veteran is also good in his purpose the main actof them is killing chariots, yours can't do tha tin one hit

nah, the main act of mine is killing units :). i have krox for killing chariots... plus even without S7, 9A will probably kill a chariot anyway, its just not autokill...


And the cheaper scar veteran just do it, you have a great weapon almost everything you hit will wound ... :P You charge so there won't be any attacking back on him so that auro of quetzl is a shame, with 11 S5 atacks, 4(5) S7 attacks and 6 S4 attacks, you most of the time win cc, and sometimes will outnumber too, so also no need for a 2nd cc

hmmm you might be right with that. however. what happens if he hits a unit with a character in it who challenges?? then he gets pasted all over the map :D
however, as he is, he can provide some good support for the unit in combat, and also protect them against hard characters, who are their main problem anyway...

Frankly
01-08-2005, 15:15
For what you pay for a Old Blood compared to a S.veteran, I'd go for an Old Blood 90% of the time, only if I'm completely sure I'm using my Lord choice ONLY as a Leadership bonus character have I chosen a Scar over an Old Blood.

T5 and 3 wounds are the biggest bonuses, BUT, its the WS6 against other hero's and some elite unit choices means he's hitting on 3's instead of 4+ making far more effective in combat against high priced units, which he should be attacking to get his points back. All this leads to a more surivalable character if he has to get into combat, he's not going to die to the odd unlucky/lucky roll.

I totally agree with going for a tooled down approach to an Old Blood, GW is by far the best weapon choice, aura the best defensive ward, jaguar charm for mobility and then start to count anymore "add on's" in terms of skinks ... for every 6pts you spend on your character you could buy a skink, for every 60pts you spend on characters you could have a multi-task unit that can spit out 20 poison shots a turn ;) .

Tobias
01-08-2005, 17:44
its a possibility, but i'm also up for the old outnumbering with fear causing enemy... with US18 this is a possibility, but not with US12... however, i'll bear that in mind :D

----------

but with Us 12 you have S5 attacks extra and 2 S4 attacks making a better cr


yeah but when the support units are all fast and protecting eachother, its harder to destroy them... however, i'll keep that in mind
ofc, if there are 2 units of saurus, there are fewer support units, so its even easier to destroy them...


nah, the main act of mine is killing units :). i have krox for killing chariots... plus even without S7, 9A will probably kill a chariot anyway, its just not autokill...


---------
and the support untis ar mainly cavalry, that's another reason why give the oldblood a great weapon

Tobias
01-08-2005, 17:44
sorry it didn't want in one post :S



hmmm you might be right with that. however. what happens if he hits a unit with a character in it who challenges?? then he gets pasted all over the map :D
however, as he is, he can provide some good support for the unit in combat, and also protect them against hard characters, who are their main problem anyway...


------------
you take a champion ;)or fi it's a weak charachter crush him with the 5 S7 attakcs ;)

RaZeR
02-08-2005, 11:19
ok i keep saying i'm going to do this, now i'm ACTUALLY going to do this :D

Oldblood with scimitar, maiming shield, COTJW, light armour, spawning of quetzl, sotek, tlazcotl (303pts)
VS
Oldblood with GW, Aura of Quetzl, COTJW, light armour, spawning of quetzl, sotek, tlazcotl (259)
(not actually vs, just a comparison, strictly by probabilities)

OB with scimitar - M9 WS6 S5 T5 W3 I3 A9 Ld8 Sv2+
OB with GW - M9 WS6 S7 T5 W3 I3 A6 Ld8 Sv3+ WSv4+(vs S5+ attacks)

1) VS skinks
Scimitar: hits on 3+ = 6 hits, wounds on 2+ = 5 wounds
GW: hits on 3+ = 4 hits, wounds on 2+ = 3.33 wounds

2) VS saurus w/ 4+ save
Scimitar: hit on 3+ = 6 hits, wounds on 3+ = 4 wounds, saved on 6+ = 0.67 saved, TOTAL 3.33 wounds
GW: hit on 3+ = 4 hits, wounds on 2+ = 3.33 wounds

3) VS Black Orcs
Scimitar: hits on 3+ = 6 hits, wounds on 3+ = 4 wounds
GW: hits on 3+ = 4 hits, wounds on 2+ = 3.33 wounds

4) VS Chosen undivided chaos warriors w/ HW/shield
Scimitar: hits on 3+ = 6 hits, wounds on 3+ = 4 wounds, saved on 5+ = 1.33 saved, TOTAL 2.67 wounds
GW: hits on 3+ = 4 hits, wounds on 2+ = 3.33 wounds

5) VS Exalted Chaos Champion with Gaze of the Gods, Sword of Might and shield.
M4 WS7 BS3 S6 T4 W2 I7 A4 Ld8 Sv3+ WSv4+

1 - Scimitar: hits on 4+ = 4.5 hits, wounds on 3+ = 3 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 1 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 1 saved. TOTAL = 1 wounds, Exalted Champion has 1 left.
1 - Exalted Champion strikes: hits on 3+ = 2.67 hits, wounds on 3+ = 1.78 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 0.59 saved, TOTAL = 1.185 wounds, Oldblood has 1.815 wounds left
2 - Exalted Champion strikes first: hits on 3+ = 2.67 hits, wounds on 3+ = 1.78 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 0.59 saved, TOTAL = 1.185 wounds, Oldblood has 0.63 wounds left
2 - Scimitar: hits on 4+ = 4.5 hits, wounds on 3+ = 3 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 1 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 1 saved. TOTAL = 1 wounds, Exalted Champion dies in second round, Oldblood with 0.63 wounds left

1 - GW: hits on 4+ = 3 hits, wounds on 2+ = 2.5 wounds, no armour save, ward saved on 4+ = 1.25 saved. TOTAL = 1.25 wounds, Exalted Champion has 0.75 wounds left.
1 - Exalted Champion strikes: hits on 3+ = 2.67 hits, wounds on 3+ = 1.78 wounds, armour saved on 6+ = 0.297 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 0.74 saved, TOTAL = 0.74 wounds, Oldblood has 2.26 wounds remaining
2 - Exalted Champion strikes first: hits on 3+ = 2.67 hits, wounds on 3+ = 1.78 wounds, armour saved on 6+ = 0.297 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 0.74 saved, TOTAL = 0.74 wounds, Oldblood has 1.52 wounds left.
2 - GW: hits on 4+ = 3 hits, wound on 2+ = 2.5 wounds, no armour save, ward saved on 4+ = 1.25 saved. TOTAL = 1.25 wounds, Exalted Champion dies in second round, Oldblood with 1.52 wounds left

6) Ogre Tyrant with +1S name, Wyrdstone necklace, Terror causing scars, Cathayan Longswords
M6 WS7 BS4 S6 T5 W5 I5 A5 Ld9 Sv5+ WSv5+

1 - Scimitar: hits on 4+ = 4.5 hits, wounds on 4+ = 2.25 wounds, ward saved on 5+ = 0.75 saved. TOTAL = 1.5 wounds, Tyrant has 3.5 wounds left.
1 - Tyrant strikes: hits on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounds on 3+ = 2.22 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 0.74 saved. TOTAL = 1.48 wounds, Oldblood has 1.52 wounds left.
2 - Tyrant strikes first: hits on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounds on 3+ = 2.22 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 0.74 saved. TOTAL = 1.48 wounds, Oldblood has 0.04 wounds left.
2 - Scimitar: hits on 4+ = 4.5 hits, wounds on 4+ = 2.25 wounds, ward saved on 5+ = 0.75 saved. TOTAL = 1.5 wounds, Tyrant has 2 wounds left.
3 - Tyrant strikes first: hits on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounds on 3+ = 2.22 wounds, armour saved on 5+ = 0.74 saved. Oldblood dies in 3rd round, Tyrant with 2 wounds left

1 - GW: hits on 4+ = 3 hits, wounds on 2+ = 2.5 wounds, ward saved on 5+ = 0.83 saved. TOTAL = 1.67 wounds, Tyrant has 3.33 wounds left
1 - Tyrant strikes: hits on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounds on 3+ = 2.22 wounds, armour saved on 6+ = 0.37 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 0.925 saved. TOTAL = 0.925 wounds, Oldblood has 2.075 wounds left.
2 - Tyrant strikes first: hits on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounds on 3+ = 2.22 wounds, armour saved on 6+ = 0.37 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 0.925 saved. TOTAL = 0.925 wounds, Oldblood has 1.15 wounds left.
2 - GW: hits on 4+ = 3 hits, wounds on 2+ = 2.5 wounds, ward saved on 5+ = 0.83 saved. TOTAL = 1.67 wounds, Tyrant has 1.67 wounds left
3 - Tyrant strikes first: hits on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounds on 3+ = 2.22 wounds, armour saved on 6+ = 0.37 saved, ward saved on 4+ = 0.925 saved. TOTAL = 0.925 wounds, Oldblood has 0.225 wounds left.
3 - GW: hits on 4+ = 3 hits, wounds on 2+ = 2.5 wounds, ward saved on 5+ = 0.83 saved. TOTAL = 1.67 wounds, Tyrant dies in 3rd round, oldblood with 0.225 wounds left


SO... basically i cant be bothered to do any more :D
hopefully i didnt make any glaring errors in my maths, the general outcome seems to be, against very weak units like skinks, the Scimitar oldblood does better. However, against tougher, more elite units and characters, the GW one does better. Generally speaking, as the GW one is a lot cheaper, he seems to be the better way to go...

thanks for making me do that, Tobias, thats good to know now...

(OFC the characters are pretty random, i just got a mate to make them in army builder, he chose the items. but they arent too bad. the units i havent bothered working out things like CR and strike backs, because i couldnt be bothered. sorry :D. It still ought to be a reasonable representation of the 2 characters.)

EDIT: Forgot about initative before... still same overall outcome...

Tobias
03-08-2005, 12:18
Yes weaker units you have amny attacks is good, but against weak units you have salamanders, skink shots erradons etc etc

against cav you only have kroxigor and there are amny cav army's believe me a GW is so much cheaper adn better :)