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adreal
27-03-2007, 08:53
Ok, I have been a staunched suporter of the 'O&G have a good book, learn to play' party but reciently I have noticed some things.

Their is four players in my club that play orc and gobbos, all of them are new (No vets playing them). One plays a mix, one is pure Orc and the other two, from what I can see havn't gotten further hten the BoSP box sets.

The all Orc players can't get a win, now while he is new I don't see this as much of a handicap, his tactics (baring the first game) are fiarly sound, (ie shoot the knights with bolt throwers, combine charges, get charges). But he still can't seem to get a win, sure a loose or three could be blamed on dice, but 6, 7? orcs are suppost to be better in the ediytion right. He usually runs, a foot hero, a foot shaman, 3 blocks of 20 orcs, boar chariot, 2 bolt throwers and an rock lobber. I think his orc blocks could be bigger, but that is all he owns (can afford). What's the problem with this list?

The BfSP players just march along a board against some dwarf brats (yes brats, not because of thier age or armies, but attitude) and go shot to pieces, perhaps them playing something other then that would help them.

The mixed army is one I just can't get my head around, he hasn't won a game since his first (he was let to win that game). He usually runs a foot lord, mounted hero, gobbo shaman, 3 blocks of 20 boys, 20 arrer boys, 2 blocks of 20 N. gobbos, 20 N.gobbo archers, 3 fanatics, 10 maybe 20 spider riders and a giant. I don't have my book on hand, but that's somewhere near 2000pts acording to him. I see this as a balanced army, but he can't even break weak (a unit of 20 clanrats) units in combat, I managed to beat this kid in 1000pts with three units of 5 knights (elves) and he took a giant in that list. His tactics are weak granted (he seems reluctent to charge) but even still, whiped off the board to a non cheese weak skaven army in turn 4 just seems plain stupid.

What is wrong with Orc and Goblin armies? WHAT???? In blanaced play they should be alright shouldn't they? Why does it seem GW have made O&G into the new elves? Anybody know of any solutions, apendix lists they may be able to use, anything?

WLBjork
27-03-2007, 09:10
My take on it:

The all Orc player needs to look at getting more regiments, that looks a small army and 2 Bolt Throwers and a Rock Lobber are quite heavy firepower.

The BfSP players need to fight against a non-gunline force, see how they do then.

The mixed guy is too timid. Orcs need to be charging so that they aren't valid targets for shooting/magic. Might also need to keep his units closer together for support and to protect his flanks.

Angry Lawyer
27-03-2007, 09:16
Tactical problems. First, they're taking too small units. You need groups of 30 goblins minimum, maybe 40 optimum. As for orcs, shooting for around 30 helps.

Being reluctant to charge also stymies the third guy. Orcs need all of the attacks of the front row. Being charged means they'll probably die before they get to attack.

Orcs regularly beat me, but I play Kislev and High Elves :(

-Angry Lawyer

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-03-2007, 09:41
He usually runs, a foot hero, a foot shaman, 3 blocks of 20 orcs, boar chariot, 2 bolt throwers and an rock lobber. I think his orc blocks could be bigger, but that is all he owns (can afford). What's the problem with this list?


No support units.

You have the chariot that can support one of the block, some shooting, but thats it. 3 blocks alone will not win you anything, they need smaller supporting units to combat enemy support units, do flank charges, chase down warmachines etc.

The orc blocks might be better if they were a little bigger, but I don't really think thats the problem. The real problem is lack of units. The number of manouvering elements is atleast as important as the total number of models you have, and it can often be worth it to go with slightly smaller units if you can get more of them.

Combined a block of orcs and the chariot can likely bash up an enemy unit. But what are the other two units doing. They either have to support each other, or get stuck on there own, not doing very much.

If you add in some wolf/spider riders, squigs, maybe a goblin unit or two, snotlings, more chariots, small unit of boars, even a few trolls or a giant and things should be looking much better.

As it stands, his army is to slow and inflexible and likely suffer from having a hard time setting up favourable combats and frequently being outmanouvered.

adreal
27-03-2007, 13:14
So the general gist of what I'm getting is that they just can't make lists (no money), play the wrong people, or just don't apply the right tactics to the army.

so my first assuption of the book being okay is correct and thet people just need (the people in my group I'm refering to here) to learn how to play in fantasy better, or is both the book and players crap?

Subscan
27-03-2007, 13:23
"So the general gist of what I'm getting is that they just can't make lists (no money), play the wrong people, or just don't apply the right tactics to the army.

so my first assuption of the book being okay is correct and thet people just need (the people in my group I'm refering to here) to learn how to play in fantasy better,"


correct.

"is both the book and players crap?"
incorrect.
:D

o&g are definitely not a weak army. very chaotic, but not weak. however, you have to use them in the right way to perform well. as already mentioned, supporting units are very important, especially for o&g

Tutore
27-03-2007, 13:38
I like my orcs and my goblins, I happen to win sometimes, to draw sometimes, and to lose sometimes. Tactics and lot of expendable units are a good idea to try.

Important
27-03-2007, 13:47
I have just started play fantasy again from some years break and meanwhile I have only played 40.k. Now I have played 2 games against Empire okay they are shooty in that list but I do alot of tactical and choice of troops mistake.

I play Ogre Kingdom so I dont have fast units but movement 6 is fast enough for them.
O&G needs alot more fast units or suprices. What I remember from former days in playing Night goblins having fanatics jumping out and screaming is great to have since the enemy will be like "wtf?".
Boar riders, spider, chariots other fast elements flanking and protecting flanks is great. Make shooty armies afraid to go close to you and make them back. Those rounds they cant shoot with an unit just rush! Do not be affraid to sacrifice the rules of war never changes. And concentraiting your whole army at one flank is an great tactic aswell. Go with the whole army at one point and let his other units far away (if he have units far away) stand there and have to go forward to do any use.

Voltaire
27-03-2007, 13:47
Anecdotal evidence based on a single persons potential bad luck is never going to be representative of the entire O&G community. O&G still happen to be one of the most well thought out forces out there and aside from the Boar Boys points hike and the perceived gobbo crisis, everything about the book is fine, it just might be that your friend was playing better generals or played poorly.

adreal
28-03-2007, 07:38
A small problem that does seemed to be glosed over in my post (allthough every point you all have made has reafermed my origianl state of mind) is that no vets play the army. But I'm thinking that is a local problem and nothing more, anyways thanks fro all your time and input, if asked I'm sure I can now help my O&G friends

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-03-2007, 09:46
So the general gist of what I'm getting is that they just can't make lists (no money), play the wrong people, or just don't apply the right tactics to the army.

so my first assuption of the book being okay is correct and thet people just need (the people in my group I'm refering to here) to learn how to play in fantasy better, or is both the book and players crap?


The book is fine from what I have seen. I think it's just a combination of a) they need to play more games and gain more experience with the army/game and b) tuning there lists a little, generally adding more support units.

They are hugely important in Warhammer, even if they are first glance might not look like all that compared to mainline combat units.

But adding a pair of chariots, and a unit of wolf riders(or something else) to an army will see a massive increase in effectiveness.