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Xenageo
29-07-2005, 00:41
-- Note: this post does not really apply to daemonic legions, as the troops involved have better protection in the form of a non daemonic ward save, are able to take full command and various other bonuses as well as fulfilling slightly different battlefield roles. --

Has anyone else had bad experiences in running daemonettes on foot? I've run a cult of pleasure for a while, and a friend plays a chaos: slaanesh army and neither of us think they are worth using, while a friend persists in telling me that they are an awesome unit.

On the positive side, they do have a 5+ (daemonic) ward save, as well as 2 s4 attacks and benefit from the aura of slaanesh -- unfortunately, the negative side far outnumbers the positive. They're 15 (!) points a model, 1 wound/toughness 3, only ws4 (which is average, possibly slightly above average -- but means they rarely hit on 3's when it counts). As well as the above problems, they also suffer from a 25mm base size which is horribly restrictive when it comes to getting them into combat, and means if charged very few survive to strike back. Coupled with movement 5" and a general lack of manouverability this unit doesn't seem to be worth taking at all.

To compound these problems, in a cult of pleasure there is a clearly better choice in terms of the Devoted, who are 3 points cheaper, have sophoric musk (which is massive, halving the enemies WS and I), 1 ws more, 3 attacks as oppose to 2 (though 1 str less) and a 20mm base size.

In a chaos list there're also many better choices, for example, a 5 man chaos knight unit or 3 ten man beastherds (15 gor and 15 ungor in total) instead of a unit of 11 daemonettes, or 25! chaos hounds for a unit of 10 daemonettes. These are all identical points values and quite clearly better choices.

Mounted daemonettes on the other hand are a slightly better choice, with a massive charge of 20", though are unfortunately still _terribly_ weak to shooting, with only a 5+ daemonic ward and 1w t3 on a 30 point model. Unlike many fast cavalry regiments they also have no shooting, which means they can adopt only limited roles on the battlefield, and the immunity to psychology hurts them terribly as it prevents them from fleeing, which is usually a key point in fast cavalry units. However, no one can say that on the charge they do not output a moderately impressive amount of attacks, usually scoring at least a few kills vs an average regiment, and often adding the necessary CR to break a unit if they can charge it in the flank.

With this said, however, the fact remains that there are simply better choices in chaos lists (2 units of 5 marauder cavalry, or a massive 25 chaos hounds), and in a cult of pleasure (dark riders with repeater crossbows, although less lethal on the charge are much cheaper, able to perform multiple roles, and very importantly able to flee.)

To conclude, I believe that daemonettes in both forms if nothing else are a characterful unit, but daemonettes on foot are nigh on totally useless, and daemonettes on steeds while useful in some situations are too many points and too specialized to see much use in a competitive gaming enviroment.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I totally wrong or am I actually making sense?

Replies welcome. =)

IkuTurso
29-07-2005, 01:21
well, the demon instability test thing should be removed!
then the demon would be yey in any army but at the moment, a unit of bloodletters,goddamn WARRIOR DEMONS HAVE T3!!!!J"(/&#Ī%/#"QY
well it just makes me sick. also the unit gets destroyed if not pass a ld test. i pass. i go mortal.

Frankly
29-07-2005, 03:33
I agree.

I've found out side of combat they're are a walking bull's eye thanks to their points cost and in combat they just aren't worth 18pts a pop.

Mounted are alittle better, mainly because they are threatening your opponants line on turn two, they work alot better in all cavalry armies as well. But still that high points cost is off putting.

Ophidian
29-07-2005, 11:14
With regards to the instability thing, I think it should be more like the Undead instability - the higher leadership means you'll lose less Daemonettes (f'rex) than you would Zombies, but you'll have less 'nettes in the first place...

samw
29-07-2005, 11:33
Instability is a fantastic rule. These are the only troops where you can lose combat, fail a break test AND NOT FLEE! 'Popping' is no different to breaking from combat and getting run down, which you tend to acept as a fact of the game. Instability is far better than the undead rules which are a negative, rather than a positive for elites. Lose five zombies, who cares? Lose five bloodletters and you do care, just as you care if you lose five wights.

In short, demonic infantry need a slight reduction in points cost, not a rules change.

Selsaral
29-07-2005, 18:30
Well I agree and disagree about the instability thing. In many ways it IS very good. As long as you don't roll badly you are unbreakable. However, it's too easy to roll badly and lose your entire elite unit. In a daemonic legion the battle standard lets daemons reroll instability tests, which makes it reasonable. In a normal army...yeah it's just not good enough.

And that's my overall point too: daemons were nerfed too hardcore in this version. I think it's very suspicious that they later released a real daemonic army, which immediately became popular. I think they knew they made a mistake and tried to make up for it.

I've loved daemonettes in the daemonic legion armies I've fielded....never used them in a normal chaos army (even a slannesh-only normal army). That pretty much says it all.

Selsaral
29-07-2005, 18:43
One thing I'll add: a major strength of daemonettes is that slannesh daemon characters can join them. Exalted daemons and daemon princes all strike first and can get devastating gifts. A daemon prince can ignore armour and halve the enemies ws/i. When you have something like that in the unit suddenly they are absolutely lethal, even if charged.

Neknoh
29-07-2005, 19:18
Will I have to answer this.... AGAIN!!!

Oh well... I presume it is the very same post that you posted on the GW forum.

>> Note: this post does not really apply to daemonic legions, as the troops involved have better protection in the form of a non daemonic ward save, are able to take full command and various other bonuses as well as fulfilling slightly different battlefield roles. --
>>
>> Has anyone else had bad experiences in running daemonettes on foot? I've run a cult of pleasure for a while, and a friend plays a chaos: slaanesh army and neither of us think they are worth using, while a friend persists in telling me that they are an awesome unit.

IMHO, they ARE an awesome unit, especially in armies where you WANT your opponent in a second round of combat if he charges you and not the other way arround.

Instabillity is an asset, just like Stubborn troops on Ld8 (or 9 if a General is nearby), their chance of going poof is just as small as a stubborn unit breaking and being run down.

Of course, the other part of instabillity might hurt you, but it is still a very good thing.

And the aura of Slaanesh is just wonderful on blocks tieing up other bad ass units, just think of it, when you Flank them, they take a modified Leadership test, not their normal one, flank them with Mounted Daemonettes and that juicy Ld8 suddenly becomes Ld6.

>>
>> On the positive side, they do have a 5+ (daemonic) ward save, as well as 2 s4 attacks and benefit from the aura of slaanesh -- unfortunately, the negative side far outnumbers the positive. They're 15 (!) points a model, 1 wound/toughness 3, only ws4 (which is average, possibly slightly above average -- but means they rarely hit on 3's when it counts). As well as the above problems, they also suffer from a 25mm base size which is horribly restrictive when it comes to getting them into combat, and means if charged very few survive to strike back. Coupled with movement 5" and a general lack of manouverability this unit doesn't seem to be worth taking at all.

Is a 5" move a lack of Manouverabillity?

May I remind you about the move of Chaos Wariors and Marauders, our other two strong blocks (of course, Bestigors are strong as well, though you need a Beastherd as well), that is correct, Marauders and Wariors have M4, meaning that it is fully possible to send your Daemonettes into suprise charges by holding them in line with your Wariors, or rushing ahead with them to tie up any nasty unit.

Sure, they have T3 and a 5+ Ward, but, you are forgetting, against shooting, Dark and High elf Spearmen (and a few of their special AND Rare choices) have a 5+ Armoursave and Toughness 3, without "suffering" from Instabillity, nor being able to dish out 2 strength 4 attacks at all the time.

The one and only weakness that the Daemonettes have which the rest doesn't is that they have 25 MM bases.

>>
>> To compound these problems, in a cult of pleasure there is a clearly better choice in terms of the Devoted, who are 3 points cheaper, have sophoric musk (which is massive, halving the enemies WS and I), 1 ws more, 3 attacks as oppose to 2 (though 1 str less) and a 20mm base size.

Yes, it is very nice, however, can they hold a charge from Heavy Cav?

Do they have a Ward of ANY kind?

You would be suprised how defensively you can use a unit of Daemonettes, where's the Devoted MUST be used offensively, since they cannot hold a charge.

And, if your Devoted runs into something with good armour and high number of attacks, it doesn't matter who strikes first, the Devoted will be brought down and probably loose, even break, however, the Daemonettes can loose their battle and will probably stick arround long enough for you to flank that unit.

>>
>> In a chaos list there're also many better choices, for example, a 5 man chaos knight unit or 3 ten man beastherds (15 gor and 15 ungor in total) instead of a unit of 11 daemonettes, or 25! chaos hounds for a unit of 10 daemonettes. These are all identical points values and quite clearly better choices.

Yes there is, but none of them is practically Stubborn, none of them has a Ward (trust me, Bolt Throwers is a much larger problem for Knights than for Daemonettes)

25 Chaos Hounds can be a liabillity to your force, imagine having one of them a little larger to screen your Knights long enough, then, it panics, suddenly, all of your screens are panicing and perhaps your Horsemen as well.



>>
>> Mounted daemonettes on the other hand are a slightly better choice, with a massive charge of 20", though are unfortunately still _terribly_ weak to shooting, with only a 5+ daemonic ward and 1w t3 on a 30 point model. Unlike many fast cavalry regiments they also have no shooting, which means they can adopt only limited roles on the battlefield, and the immunity to psychology hurts them terribly as it prevents them from fleeing, which is usually a key point in fast cavalry units. However, no one can say that on the charge they do not output a moderately impressive amount of attacks, usually scoring at least a few kills vs an average regiment, and often adding the necessary CR to break a unit if they can charge it in the flank.

As you said, they don't serve the normal purposes of Fast Cavalry, however, their impressive ammount of attacks combined with the Aura of Slaanesh makes them carve through flanks and units as a hot knife through butter.

They are also one of the few Fast Cav units out there that causes Fear, meaning that they can act just like Furies in terms of hunting down Lone Characters and Warmachines.

>>
>> With this said, however, the fact remains that there are simply better choices in chaos lists (2 units of 5 marauder cavalry, or a massive 25 chaos hounds), and in a cult of pleasure (dark riders with repeater crossbows, although less lethal on the charge are much cheaper, able to perform multiple roles, and very importantly able to flee.)

Yes, there are other choices, however, if you stick the Mounted Daemonettes in a flank, the only way to get rid of them is to throw a fully ranked unit at their own flank, where's Marauder Horsemen can be dealt with by simply sending your own Cavary in for a flank charge.

Of course, the other choices can flee, but, that is NOT the point of Mounted Daemonettes, they are not supposed to do it, they are one of the most agressive units in the game when it comes to using them.

>>
>> To conclude, I believe that daemonettes in both forms if nothing else are a characterful unit, but daemonettes on foot are nigh on totally useless, and daemonettes on steeds while useful in some situations are too many points and too specialized to see much use in a competitive gaming enviroment.

IIRC, Phil used a unit of Mounted Daemonettes in his GT army list once, of course, he could not work them properly, however, near the end of the GT (the final three matches or so), he learned how to use them and they helped him out in many situations.

Though he switched back to trolls for his next GT list.


As for Mounted Daemonettes being to vulnerable and specialised, actually, IMHO, they are more survivable than other Fast Cav, due to their Daemonic save and being able to move up to 20" a turn.


Daemonettes on foot also serve a very important role in my armies, they are there to take the charge from whatever nastyness sent at my beloved Marauders, Knights and Wariors.

If you want a report on exactly how well Daemonettes on foot and Steed can do in a Cult of Slaanesh army, may I suggest you to take a good look on the Battle Reports writen by Baron de Sade, he uses units of both to great success.

>>
>> Thoughts? Opinions? Am I totally wrong or am I actually making sense?

Yep, you are totally wrong

FallenScholar
29-07-2005, 19:44
In the past I have used 6 units of 10 with no command. These are backed up by 2 units of mounted daemonettes and 2 chariots. The army has a single character...a daemon princess. From all the games I have played this list rocks. The only list I had a problem with on a regular basis...Nurgle Daemon Legions.


Fallen Scholar

Lindinblade
29-07-2005, 21:32
And here I thought you meant they looked heinous.
Gods know they are aeons and endless miles after endless aeon-miles beyond their previous incarnation; the crab-nazis.

Xenageo
29-07-2005, 23:07
(quote from neknoh, edited around with my responses in italic, the things he was responding to prefixed by >)

Oh well... I presume it is the very same post that you posted on the GW forum.

It came up in a debate between a friend and me - he posted it for me on the GW fourm, but in essence, yes.

>> Has anyone else had bad experiences in running daemonettes on foot? I've run a cult of pleasure for a while, and a friend plays a chaos: slaanesh army and neither of us think they are worth using, while a friend persists in telling me that they are an awesome unit.

IMHO, they ARE an awesome unit, especially in armies where you WANT your opponent in a second round of combat if he charges you and not the other way arround.

Instabillity is an asset, just like Stubborn troops on Ld8 (or 9 if a General is nearby), their chance of going poof is just as small as a stubborn unit breaking and being run down.

Of course, the other part of instabillity might hurt you, but it is still a very good thing.

I disagree, especially with an MSU style instability is almost more of a hinderance than a help sometimes

And the aura of Slaanesh is just wonderful on blocks tieing up other bad ass units, just think of it, when you Flank them, they take a modified Leadership test, not their normal one, flank them with Mounted Daemonettes and that juicy Ld8 suddenly becomes Ld6.

Aura is nice, yes -- but it doesn't justify the incredibly high points cost.

>>
>> On the positive side, they do have a 5+ (daemonic) ward save, as well as 2 s4 attacks and benefit from the aura of slaanesh -- unfortunately, the negative side far outnumbers the positive. They're 15 (!) points a model, 1 wound/toughness 3, only ws4 (which is average, possibly slightly above average -- but means they rarely hit on 3's when it counts). As well as the above problems, they also suffer from a 25mm base size which is horribly restrictive when it comes to getting them into combat, and means if charged very few survive to strike back. Coupled with movement 5" and a general lack of manouverability this unit doesn't seem to be worth taking at all.

Is a 5" move a lack of Manouverabillity?

In my opinion, yes -- a basic 5" move is hardly particularly manouverable

May I remind you about the move of Chaos Wariors and Marauders, our other two strong blocks (of course, Bestigors are strong as well, though you need a Beastherd as well), that is correct, Marauders and Wariors have M4, meaning that it is fully possible to send your Daemonettes into suprise charges by holding them in line with your Wariors, or rushing ahead with them to tie up any nasty unit.

If marching/charging that's 2" more a turn -- that's hardly "rushing ahead"

Sure, they have T3 and a 5+ Ward, but, you are forgetting, against shooting, Dark and High elf Spearmen (and a few of their special AND Rare choices) have a 5+ Armoursave and Toughness 3, without "suffering" from Instabillity, nor being able to dish out 2 strength 4 attacks at all the time.

High Elf Infantry is one of the most widely complained about infantry in the game in terms of sucking. Dark elf spearmen have a 5+ as and t3 (though 4+ in combat with a handweapon/shield), yes -- but they're HALF the price of daemonettes. i don't see how you can even begin to compare them.

The one and only weakness that the Daemonettes have which the rest doesn't is that they have 25 MM bases.

>>
>> To compound these problems, in a cult of pleasure there is a clearly better choice in terms of the Devoted, who are 3 points cheaper, have sophoric musk (which is massive, halving the enemies WS and I), 1 ws more, 3 attacks as oppose to 2 (though 1 str less) and a 20mm base size.

Yes, it is very nice, however, can they hold a charge from Heavy Cav?

With weapon skill five and halfing opponents WS they are more likely to survive a charge than daemonettes, most of the time, since opponents are going to be hitting on 5+ instead of 4+

Do they have a Ward of ANY kind?

No - soph musk is nice, and i'm not saying the daemonettes ward isn't good - people make more 5+ saves than you'd realise, but they're still incredibly light infantry. And, there's no way they will take a charge from an average heavy cav regiment and survive.

You would be suprised how defensively you can use a unit of Daemonettes, where's the Devoted MUST be used offensively, since they cannot hold a charge.

Just wrong, imo -- devoted vs ws4 enemies are as likely to hold as daemonettes, but it's very rarely that daemonettes hold a charge.

And, if your Devoted runs into something with good armour and high number of attacks, it doesn't matter who strikes first, the Devoted will be brought down and probably loose, even break, however, the Daemonettes can loose their battle and will probably stick arround long enough for you to flank that unit.

>>
>> In a chaos list there're also many better choices, for example, a 5 man chaos knight unit or 3 ten man beastherds (15 gor and 15 ungor in total) instead of a unit of 11 daemonettes, or 25! chaos hounds for a unit of 10 daemonettes. These are all identical points values and quite clearly better choices.

Yes there is, but none of them is practically Stubborn, none of them has a Ward (trust me, Bolt Throwers is a much larger problem for Knights than for Daemonettes)

25 Chaos Hounds can be a liabillity to your force, imagine having one of them a little larger to screen your Knights long enough, then, it panics, suddenly, all of your screens are panicing and perhaps your Horsemen as well.

None of them are stubborn or have a ward, no -- hounds "can" be a liability, but chances are for panic they're on ld9 (lords LD) anyway -- and i'd rather have any of the above choices than daemonettes.


>>
>> Mounted daemonettes on the other hand are a slightly better choice, with a massive charge of 20", though are unfortunately still _terribly_ weak to shooting, with only a 5+ daemonic ward and 1w t3 on a 30 point model. Unlike many fast cavalry regiments they also have no shooting, which means they can adopt only limited roles on the battlefield, and the immunity to psychology hurts them terribly as it prevents them from fleeing, which is usually a key point in fast cavalry units. However, no one can say that on the charge they do not output a moderately impressive amount of attacks, usually scoring at least a few kills vs an average regiment, and often adding the necessary CR to break a unit if they can charge it in the flank.

As you said, they don't serve the normal purposes of Fast Cavalry, however, their impressive ammount of attacks combined with the Aura of Slaanesh makes them carve through flanks and units as a hot knife through butter.

Yeah, agree that if they're in the flank of a unit chances are the unit is gone.

They are also one of the few Fast Cav units out there that causes Fear, meaning that they can act just like Furies in terms of hunting down Lone Characters and Warmachines.

Sure, but furies are half the price, skirmish, and have a 360 degree sight arc. I know what i'd take.

>>
>> With this said, however, the fact remains that there are simply better choices in chaos lists (2 units of 5 marauder cavalry, or a massive 25 chaos hounds), and in a cult of pleasure (dark riders with repeater crossbows, although less lethal on the charge are much cheaper, able to perform multiple roles, and very importantly able to flee.)

Yes, there are other choices, however, if you stick the Mounted Daemonettes in a flank, the only way to get rid of them is to throw a fully ranked unit at their own flank, where's Marauder Horsemen can be dealt with by simply sending your own Cavary in for a flank charge.

Uhh, most cav can take out mounted daemonettes.

Of course, the other choices can flee, but, that is NOT the point of Mounted Daemonettes, they are not supposed to do it, they are one of the most agressive units in the game when it comes to using them.

>>
>> To conclude, I believe that daemonettes in both forms if nothing else are a characterful unit, but daemonettes on foot are nigh on totally useless, and daemonettes on steeds while useful in some situations are too many points and too specialized to see much use in a competitive gaming enviroment.

IIRC, Phil used a unit of Mounted Daemonettes in his GT army list once, of course, he could not work them properly, however, near the end of the GT (the final three matches or so), he learned how to use them and they helped him out in many situations.

Though he switched back to trolls for his next GT list.

shock! a chaos player dropping daemonettes. =P

As for Mounted Daemonettes being to vulnerable and specialised, actually, IMHO, they are more survivable than other Fast Cav, due to their Daemonic save and being able to move up to 20" a turn.

More survivable than most, yes -- but like double the price of most.


Daemonettes on foot also serve a very important role in my armies, they are there to take the charge from whatever nastyness sent at my beloved Marauders, Knights and Wariors.

If you want a report on exactly how well Daemonettes on foot and Steed can do in a Cult of Slaanesh army, may I suggest you to take a good look on the Battle Reports writen by Baron de Sade, he uses units of both to great success.

>>
>> Thoughts? Opinions? Am I totally wrong or am I actually making sense?

Yep, you are totally wrong

But, yeah -- honestly, some of your arguments make sense, but you really haven't succeeded in justifying the incredibly high points cost. I'm not saying that as a unit they can't do well, but that for their price almost anything else in the chaos/cult lists are a better option.

Frankly
30-07-2005, 04:29
Yep, you are totally wrong

Thats O.K. I disagree with you.

Most of your argument is about the the daemonette ward save. Alot of CHEEPER units get a 4+ save in combat for L.armour, h.weapon and shields, for example Cult of Ulric warriors are 5pts a pop with L.armour H.weapons and shields, Empire Swordsmen are 7pts.

I think Xenageo right in his opinion that for what you pay for daemonettes, your actually still getting a T3, 5++ model, that can be smacked around at range and in combat pretty easily.

In the HoC army, what about magic? where does that ward save go?


You talk about mounted daemonettes getting to the flanks of an enemy unit, held up by daemonette infantry, which I find alittle strange, because both the units cost a ton of points per model(getting back to Xenageo's arguement)and will be outnumbered 2 or 3:1. So who has the real advantages in target selection, flanking and so forth?

If an opponant can help it, why would he get envoked in a combat he is going to get flanked the mounted demonettes anyway?

Or he could through away a unit, let it smack up your demonette infantry on the charge, break in turn 2 and then in turn 3 counter attack with his greater advantage in numbers(point cost problem again).

Who wants to get envoked in combat with mounted and footslogging daemonettes when you can take care of them at range anyway, I have cheep Xbow dwarves who deal to daemonettes(don't worry about my 8 B.throwers), or cheeper handgunners, or even cheeper B.pipes(3:1 points cost).

Then the magic phase. It's all coming down on your demonettes .... target number one=mounted units.


@Fallen Scholar;

Nice army list, everyone has a problem with nurgle daemons ... little stickers.

Neknoh
30-07-2005, 09:01
Xenageo, you are putting too much trust in the Soporofic Musk of the Devoted, trust me, even though enemy units only hit on 5's, one lucky go is all that is needed to bring you down.

Especially from Bretonnian Lances, I should know, yesterday, I had a 1200 pts match against Bretonnians, and in my eagerness to cast Titillating Delusions on a 8 man lance, I miscast and that lance was free to charge my Wariors, he wiped the entire front rank (except for my Champion), and did I mention, I had the Raptorous Standard.

Even though robbed of my Ranks from the Bretonnian Battle Standard Bearers banner, I held for a single round, the next round, I did strike first with hallberds, but, ranks, wards and other stuff brought me down.

Devoted would have done even worse in that situation.


As for Daemonettes not being manouverable, correct me if I am wrong... but doesn't the elven units have Movement 5 and are considered some of the most manouverable?

And you talk about Furies being used for Flanking, sure, they migt be good, however, the do not cancel ranks, which is a vital thing to do, nor do they have the Aura of Slaanesh.

And elven units being cheaper, of course, but, they do not have Instabillity, they do not have a Ward (Daemonic or Not, it still isn't changed by a Chariots impact hits), nor do they have the Aura of Slaanesh, and they certainly not deals out 2 strength 4 attacks.

And you Frankly, you speak about infantry for 5 and 7 points with Lightarmour and Shields, well, we have that as well, our Marauders with Lightarmour and Shield have a 4+ Armoursave in CC, those are the ones there to match the Swordsmen and CoU Wariors.

As for the army being outnumbered, sure, if you field solely Daemonettes, Mounted Daemonettes, Wariors, Knights and the varius monsters from Beasts of Chaos.

However, if you use your Special Choices on Beastherds and Marauders, you suddenly have quite a few units in your army.

And you still have your Rare Choices left to field Dragon Ogres whom serve the same role as Chaos Knights.

That is in a Daemonic lead army.

In an army lead by a Mortal, you can have even more numbers while still fielding 2 units of Daemonettes on foot and 2 units of Mounted Daemonettes, you won't even need the rare choice Dragon Ogres then, since you can field Knights and Wariors as Core.

In beasts, the situation is equal, lots of Beastherds and Bestigors, two units of Daemonettes, perhaps one of Mounted, some Minos or Trolls (unless the army is lead by a Doombull, in which case, you can bring how many Minos you want for Core) and then, why not field some other heavy hitters? Giant, Dragon Ogres?

And one thing I almost forgot, Daemonettes cause Fear as well, meaning you can even Autobreak your opponent.

The prise is in context with the army, them being vulnerable to Magic or Shooting, right, but, so are Swordsmasters and Black Guard, and besides, they doesn't cost more than Chaos Wariors with Shields or something else.

Frankly
30-07-2005, 15:44
[QUOTE=Neknoh]

And you Frankly...QUOTE]

...yes?

I'm wondering if you have missed my point, the arguement is how effective deamonette units are for their points, not how effective the rest of the chaos armybook is or how effective deamonettes are when you place them beside other point sink units when they are getting beat down by magic. This doesn't distract from the fact the DEAMONETTES cost 18pts which your armylist still has to soak up, distracting points from other core units.

The sweeping statement that price is in the context of the army doesn't always hold water, they're still a points sink easily targeted by range attacks or magic and they won't stand up to well against a supported charge by units of the same points cost(well actually that last point is a bit of a sweeping statement as well, but what the hey ...).


Remember you can't auto break if you don't outnumber with the fear causing enemy ... how big are your deamonette units anyway?

Also remember when your comparing Deamonette instability to D.E. leadership, remember that a DE unit can get L.d.10 re-rollable with a BSB, if they lose combat by 1 or 2(even 3) they're most likely going to stick around in combat. If they have L.armour, H.weapon and shields then they have a better armour save, they're cost half the price of deamonettes, so will have twice the ranks and twice the unit strength, they'll also have a standard and musican.

Neknoh
30-07-2005, 16:09
Daemonettes costs 18 points?

My dear friend, now you have gotten something wrong, Daemonettes are 15 points each, not 18.

If they would have costed 18 points a piece, of course, they would be ridiculus, however, the only Daemons costing above 16 points are:

Greater Daemons... 600 to 675 pts a piece
Daemonprinces... a minimum of 300 points
Exalted Daemons... 210 pts without any marks or upgrades
Screamers... 33 points a piece

And note that only one of those choices are from the Daemonic Section wheres the rest comes from the Character section.

And I often field them in either bigger blocks of 18 and 20 to act as a shock troop, or I field them in units of 10 to 12 in order to throw something at the enemy which does not cost all too many points and still has a chance of tieing that 400 points unit up for two or three turns.

And yes, it might be true that the DE can get Ld10 with rerollable Break Tests... may I ask you then, how many points did you just throw down on your Highborn and Battle Standard Bearer, including the unit?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
30-07-2005, 21:54
Daemonettes have performed so well in my Cult of Pleasure army that I bought a second unit. I run them in units of 12 each.

I think people who do not like them are either unlucky with them or not using them properly.

Frankly
31-07-2005, 11:10
Daemonettes costs 18 points?

My dear friend, now you have gotten something wrong, Daemonettes are 15 points each, not 18.



....err, didn't I mean 15pts ... :rolleyes: . Oh weel, at least I made a dear freind out of all of this.

night2501
02-08-2005, 17:08
well I play demonic legion, apure slanesh demonic legion, and have to say thet the demonettes are just great, the big iference betwen DL demonetes and mounted demontes with the rest is, the comand group for the infantry and the demonic save becoming standar ward save, but they have never let me down, I think demonettes and mounted demonettes are just great...as long as you donīt make a mistake as they are fragile like cristal...
but is true that usually I m outnumbered at least 2:1, once played against skaven and he outnumber me almost 4:1, but the army can deal with it (the number of units have little to do with being able to flank the enemy or not, tat have a lot more to do with coordinating your force, concentrate your forces, seting a trap, and autmanuver your enemy), actually a higly mobile force not too big is a lot better at flanking than a lot of big units...

Darwin_green
02-08-2005, 19:23
how well do they work in a Beasts of chaos Slaaneshi Army? I love the minis and i might field an unconvetional force of mostly bestigors and other ranked units with the compulsery herds as ambushers.

Neknoh
03-08-2005, 11:32
You can use them in units of 12 with a frontage of 6 to flank charge any units running into your Bestigors or pinned for a turn or two by a Screening Herd (you can't believe how good the Banner of the Gods works on a Herd with a Foe Render, Ld7, Stubborn, rerolling failed Breaks... just gotta love it).

You can also use them as screens for your Bestigors, since unless your opponent dishes out 10 unsaved wounds and wipes the unit (a unit of 10 that is), he will not overrun, even though the Instabillity kills them, then, they just stand there, with Bestigors or something else very nasty ready to charge them.

As for your idea of having Herds in Ambush... why not get a Doombull instead?

Enabling you to field even more Daemonettes since Minos are core when he is the general

night2501
04-08-2005, 02:08
just correcting a mistake...

if a unit of demons goes puff in the first round of combat the enemy may overrun, this is cleare in the faq

Chris_Tzeentch
06-12-2005, 19:19
well I play demonic legion, apure slanesh demonic legion, and have to say thet the demonettes are just great, the big iference betwen DL demonetes and mounted demontes with the rest is, the comand group for the infantry and the demonic save becoming standar ward save, but they have never let me down, I think demonettes and mounted demonettes are just great...as long as you donīt make a mistake as they are fragile like cristal...
but is true that usually I m outnumbered at least 2:1, once played against skaven and he outnumber me almost 4:1, but the army can deal with it (the number of units have little to do with being able to flank the enemy or not, tat have a lot more to do with coordinating your force, concentrate your forces, seting a trap, and autmanuver your enemy), actually a higly mobile force not too big is a lot better at flanking than a lot of big units...

I murdered Grimgors Ardboyz army with a slaanesh army which outnumbered me hideously. The speed of the army is the key. You can dictate the pace of the game superbly. Deamonettes form the ranks to surround the KoS, thats all they do really. You have to have them (compulsory choice unfortunately). Mounted deamonettes, on the other hand, with chariot and pleasureseeker support, just rule.

Oguleth
06-12-2005, 20:15
Never played WITH a slaanesh army, but having played quite a bit against things with daemonettes, I can only speak as an opponent I guess.

As for basic daemonettes, I can only say I like playing against them. Typical elite infantry; neither better nor worse than what the system has made the type. In other words not terribly good.

As for the mounted version, I hate them. They are perhaps not your typical fast cav, but oh my how they hurt! They can whack lighter ranked units fast, can maul skirmishers, and can deal with lots of stuff as long as they can get a flank or rear charge, something regular fast cav can`t do without support. Combine that with exceptionel speed, a lot of things on the battlefield should shiver at the sight of them. I`d be a happy man if I don`t have to see them ever again.

Slappy
07-12-2005, 02:24
I love when I see Demonettes. Junk unit. Horribly high cost. I always just magic and shoot them to death before running them over with a unit of calvary or something. A free 300 VP. People should run two units of them always.

Trunks
07-12-2005, 04:57
People always seem to view Mounted Demonettes in the completely wrong way.

They see the "Fast Cavalry" special rule listed and immediately expect them to be like Dark Riders, Glade Riders, etc., used as a baiting unit to flee, or as a harasser. You aren't suppose to flee with Mounted demonettes, there are other units for that role in the army such as Marauder horsemen and Hounds. You can use them as harassers to hunt down warmachines and lone characters of course, but I prefer to make them smash into units.

Look at them like Wood Elf Wild Riders. They are a relatively hard hitting (2 S4 + 1 S3 poison attack, pretty damn good i'd say) unit, that causes fear, that is DAMN fast. The Fast Cavalry rule is included simply to let them be very maneuverable to get those flank and rear charges.

They are not "light cavalry", despite being lightly armored/"warded". They are "medium cavalry", much like Wild Riders (who also, cannot flee from charges and cause fear and are hardly a bad unit).

Demonettes on foot may be hard to justify at times in a non-demon legion army, but Mounted Demonettes are a completely different story.

Chris_Tzeentch
07-12-2005, 09:10
I totally agree with Trunks. They are so easy to get into position for the all important flank charge or to hunt down artillery/mages. Combine a charge with Slaanesh deamon chariots, and its all over for your opponent.

True, they are flimsy, and be destroyed in one turn of shooting, but then you need to use their pace and fast cav move to ensure that you are positioned out of the fire arcs of enemy guns/bows/crossbows.

I had two units of mounted deamonettes take down a giant in one turn of combat. Rather funny.

Selsaral
08-12-2005, 15:29
And here I thought you meant they looked heinous.
Gods know they are aeons and endless miles after endless aeon-miles beyond their previous incarnation; the crab-nazis.

You are SO right about this. The old models made me want to cry, the new ones give me a stiffy.

MarcoPollo
09-12-2005, 01:25
When I first bought these models I was happy to have all the goodies that they came with. The foot demonettes looked appealing on paper. So I painted up 24 of them and flew a demon from one to another. But the lack of command for a regular chaos unit really hurts. Your demon Prince has to accept the challenge from the lowly champion while the rest of your demonettes get beat down by the other cavalry. The uncertainty behind the instability test makes throwing such an expensive unit into combat a real risk.

I think that they should allow regular mortal armies to have a full command with them or allow them to start their units with only 5 models. 10 models is too much of an investment for what I would want them to do (small detatchment).

The mounted demonettes are cool but also very expensive. They can be used quite nicely in conjunction with other cavary and dogs. I have never ventured to try them in a mostly cavalry chaos army as the chaos cavalry is also very expensive.

There was a comment a while ago about the banner of the gods. It seems statistically good but positioning the BSB can be tricky and often your opponent will know that you have it. 210 pts on a wargor is pretty expensive. I have tried it a few times but never really found results. I suppose it would be more effective with the more points the game is played at.