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He Who Laughs
07-04-2005, 12:51
G'day, just a quick question:

What's the rough transport capacity of an Adeptus Astartes Strike Cruiser and Battlebarge (as in "How many squads/companies and their support elements can each carry?")

I know this was on the old Portent - but alas... and I can't seem to find the specific rules for Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battlebarges on the web.

Thanks for your help
He Who Laughs

He Who Laughs
07-04-2005, 13:04
Everybody can stop looking - I did find it after all.
For anyone that's interested:

It's 3 companies and support for Battlebarges
and
1 company with support for Strike Cruisers

Inquisitor Samos
07-04-2005, 13:12
In general, a Space Marine Strike Cruiser carries a Company of Space Marines plus supporting vehicles, while a Battle Barge can carry three Companies.

In a bit more detail, information from the Epic: Armageddon game says that a Strike Cruiser carries 20 personnel "units," which would be 5-Marine "tactical squads," Terminator squads, bike squads, or a single Dreadnought. It also carries up to 20 heavier SM vehicles, such as Land Raiders, Rhinos, and so on. It has six Thunderhawk gunships aboard, as well as carrying as many drop pods and landing craft as it takes to deploy any units that won't fit in the Thunderhawks.

The Battle Barge according to E:A carries 60 personnel "units," 60 vehicles, 9 Thunderhawks, and enough drop pods and landing craft to deploy any remaining units.

Rich
07-04-2005, 16:22
I suppose that battlebarges would have acess to thunderhawk transporters also - whether strike cruisers would have these also I don't know

Sai-Lauren
07-04-2005, 16:39
Well, BFG says a strike cruiser can launch 1 flight, so I would say yes.

In theory, even the escorts could, but they may only have a single bay - enough room for maybe one or two birds to drop squads, with maybe a couple of small drop pod bays as well, the heavier vessels would have more, including transporters to be able to drop armour and other assets.

Rich
07-04-2005, 18:39
The problem is that if each strike cruiser has six thunderhawks, each with two crew members, and command staff, you are looking at 15-20 marines aboard each strike cruiser in the fleet, as well as those aboard battlebarges and rapid strike vessels, and you soon end up with a figure for marines attached to the fleet at at least 100 - if, as is stated in some of the BFG fluff, the marines stationed aboard the fleet come from the reserve companies, that essentially means that you ahve an entire reserve company tied up in the fleet - the figures just don't add up. That doesn't even take into account tank crew etc who supposedly also come from the reserve companies. It would seem that GW didn't think through their figures when they detailed the codex astartes restrictions on marines.

Minister
07-04-2005, 22:59
The one thousand troops has always been an approximate figure, and can be looked at in two ways: either it's the strength of the chapter in terms of troops within the companies (including the command, remember the 10th doesn't have a full 100), or it is a typical figure taking into account the fact that Marines are in the habbit of running around getting shot at, and the 200 or so pilots, crew and command staff reflect this (particularly when the average includes the likes of the Flesh Tearers and Crimson Fists).

athamas
07-04-2005, 23:39
also remember 1000 is the 'supposed' number most are belived to follow....


IIRC the BA have more troops (origional legion) as they hardly split atall.. and are very tight knit...

and the Ultramarines.... again, as they recrute from so many worlds and have to give away so many ppl, the have an over sized number... the numbers in the books represent the 'deployable' companies... not those who are back at bae getting bored!

DantesInferno
08-04-2005, 00:12
Ummm....The only 2 chapters which are probably noticably over the 1000 man guideline are the Black Templars and perhaps the Space Wolves.

Ultramarines are the strictest Codex adherents out there, they really don't have an oversized number.

The Blood Angels split into 3 or 4 chapters after the Heresy, but considering that they bore the brunt of the fighting on the outer walls in the Siege of the Emperor's palace, I hardly think they would have been over after they were divided up.

And the 1000 man number does include the reserve companies and those back at base. What it may or may not include is things like command units, vehicle crews etc. No Codex Chapter is going to be more than a hundred or so over the 1000 man number even at full strength.

Delicious Soy
08-04-2005, 04:00
Indeed the 1000 is the raw ground pounder units of the companies, it doesn't include the Armoury, Apothecarion, or Librarium, possibly the Reccluesium. The few marines that survive beyond their fighting capability (conventionally marines around 700 - 800 years) often take adminstartive posts in the chapter, one of which would probably be fleet command. Of course the fleet could at a pinch be left in the command of chapter serfs trained in fleet tactics, or the navigator.

alterion
08-04-2005, 09:27
don't forget that most positions in a space marine flret are taken up by adepdts or marines who failed the training and upbringing process but survived. Only the very top positions are manned by space marines

Rich
08-04-2005, 11:18
Let me quote from the BFG 'Space Marine Fleet' article by Matt Keefe, Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe:

"The exact organisation of those Space Marines tasked with crewing the fleet varies from Chapter to Chapter. In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleets own company who provides these Marines, with each of his veteran Captains acting as Captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area withing that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battleforce may be made up from squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated Force Commander.

At an absolute minimum, the Master of the Fleet typically needs eighty to a hundred marines to properly crew the fleet, its Thunderhawks and its landing craft, and most Chapters have measures in place to ensure that a standing force of this size is permanently available to the Master of the Fleet, be it his own company in its entirety, or squads from across the Chapter left at his permanent disposal."

I find the above interesting, because it basically says that a Chapter doesn't have 1000 ground pounders at all, and that essentially at least one of the reserve companies is involved entirely in the manning of the fleet (which also means that those force dispositions which show ten companies being present at a certain conflict must be wrong, unless you assume that all of the fleet is present also).

the_yuk
08-04-2005, 12:51
I see a 11th company being the only real option, if they have a fleet master they should have a company under his command for the expressed use of the fleet. Being such a rapid strike force Id imagine it would just be common sense to have a permanent fleet arm attached to the chapter.

Delicious Soy
08-04-2005, 12:57
Given the nature of most marine operations, the Marine presence in the fleet would become largely superfluous after they achevied orbital supremacy. Once that was established they could simply join the rest of the marines on the surface and leave the support bombardment to the serfs.

Laspistol
08-04-2005, 13:31
I'de be inclined to think a lot of the menial labour in the fleet is left to serfs, servitors, and automats thusly reducing the amount of Marines needed to crew things.

Fleet size and the number of marines operating it likely also depends on whether or not the chapter is fleet based or planetary. Planetary chapters likely have smaller fleets and therefore fewer brothers tied up crewing things.

Rich
08-04-2005, 14:02
Given the nature of most marine operations, the Marine presence in the fleet would become largely superfluous after they achevied orbital supremacy. Once that was established they could simply join the rest of the marines on the surface and leave the support bombardment to the serfs.

I can't see marine ships serving as glorified transports and just sitting tight in orbit once their troops were deployed. In the armageddon campaign, the battlebarges formed the main portion of the Imperial fleet, and persued a very aggressive course - I would expect the fleet to seek out enemy vessels, patrol the system and guard the warp gate as well as providing support in terms of planetary bombardment.

I think I have to agree with the_yuk on the idea of an '11th company' as the only practical solution to the problem - but then it could be the case that a marine chapter only really consists of 500 ground pounders, with the other 500 being in supporting roles. It's just that this makes marine chapters seem extremely small.

Sojourner
08-04-2005, 14:12
In the armageddon campaign, the battlebarges formed the main portion of the Imperial fleet, and persued a very aggressive course

Slight misrepresentation there. The space marine fleet assets made up such a large proportion because the Navy got thrashed by the Ork fleet incoming. The reason they were used so aggressively is because their bombardment weapons were much more effective than the standard fleet batteries against the rock-based components of the ork fleet - which are unusual and mean that in a standard engagement, the marine ships are still disadvantaged ton for ton.

Delicious Soy
08-04-2005, 23:22
I can't see marine ships serving as glorified transports and just sitting tight in orbit once their troops were deployed. In the armageddon campaign, the battlebarges formed the main portion of the Imperial fleet, and persued a very aggressive course - I would expect the fleet to seek out enemy vessels, patrol the system and guard the warp gate as well as providing support in terms of planetary bombardment.Yes but the marines day to day buisness is attacking single planets/systems. Part of their modus operandi is to draw out defense ships and destroy them through ambushes before heading in system. One look at the disposition and armanents of SM fleets should tell you that their primary function is to lend orbital support barrages and act as transports for the marines. In a fleet engagement, the strongest method for SMs to win (in the background) is a massed boarding torpedo/teleport attack. After destroying the picket fleet of a world Space marines act fast and cripple the enemy in a few weeks, before help would be able to arrive. Armageddon (and for that matter, the battle of Macragge) is the exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.

Rich
09-04-2005, 10:47
I would have said that marine ships would attempt to deploy their forces fast and efficiently, punching through defending warships and orbital defences, and then hunt down any survivers afterwards. Marines prefer to deploy in the midst of a decisive engagement, and I can't see them fighting a fleet battle first to achieve this unless absolutely necessary - why risk the cargo? Better to force a way through the enemy lines, deploy rapidly (something that marines specialise in) and then hunt down enemy vessels individaully, suing the advantages that SM ships have over conventional vessels (speed, manouverability, armour and short ranged firepower) rather than allowing a long-range duel to develop (which the marines can't win).

Delicious Soy
11-04-2005, 13:04
I would have said that marine ships would attempt to deploy their forces fast and efficiently, punching through defending warships and orbital defences, and then hunt down any survivers afterwards. Marines prefer to deploy in the midst of a decisive engagement, and I can't see them fighting a fleet battle first to achieve this unless absolutely necessary - why risk the cargo? Better to force a way through the enemy lines, deploy rapidly (something that marines specialise in) and then hunt down enemy vessels individaully, suing the advantages that SM ships have over conventional vessels (speed, manouverability, armour and short ranged firepower) rather than allowing a long-range duel to develop (which the marines can't win).Marines usually engae a system without warning, the worst they'd ever have to face in that situation would be lowly picket ships, which wouldn't be able to stand against a strike cruiser bearing a full company. If engaging a heavily defended system, the marines are usually part of a larger taskforce, note that the common crusade tactic is to have the marine fleet run point, taking what worlds they can by themselves, while leaving the rest to the Navy and IG (of course they would probably have more marines in the fleet to aid bombardment and disruption of enemy HQ). Also marines frequently bolster their fleet firepower by taking control of orbital defense platforms or starports.

Brother Munro
11-04-2005, 13:21
The Ultramarines have more fleet elements than they stricly need for transport as they maintain a small navy (essentailly) to patrol Ultramar and the surrounding systems. Normally a strike cruiser will fit one company, plus support thunderhawks etc. and a battlebarge will carry 3.

Delicious Soy
11-04-2005, 13:34
Ultramarines also modify their battlebarges to field lance batteries to better deal with their responsiblities. They also have extensive shipyards in orbit around Calth, meaning a large conventional fleet presence as well.

Rich
11-04-2005, 16:40
Marines usually engae a system without warning, the worst they'd ever have to face in that situation would be lowly picket ships, which wouldn't be able to stand against a strike cruiser bearing a full company. If engaging a heavily defended system, the marines are usually part of a larger taskforce, note that the common crusade tactic is to have the marine fleet run point, taking what worlds they can by themselves, while leaving the rest to the Navy and IG (of course they would probably have more marines in the fleet to aid bombardment and disruption of enemy HQ). Also marines frequently bolster their fleet firepower by taking control of orbital defense platforms or starports.

I'm talking about situations where the marines have to go it alone - marines cannot always rely on local support, and organisations such as the gry knights (who fight space battles in much the same way as any other chapter) can almost depend on being without recourse to reinforcements or external support, given the secrecy and nature of their missions.

Minister
12-04-2005, 00:30
Quite frankly, the Space Marines are designed to be unable to take a heavily defended world on their own, even if the entire chapter is depployed as a single force. That's part of what the Codex Astrates was designed to do. An Imperial sector capital world will have a Navy battlegroup, half a dozen or so Star Forts, minefields, weapons platforms, dirtside defences, local system defence and patrol ships etc. A chapter couldn't breach it (or at least couldn't hold a breach and support ground troops). However, this is not a problem because even with support the Marines couldn't take the planet.

Delicious Soy
12-04-2005, 03:31
Not to mention that the navy and IG will be called upon far more than the SM's. The Grey knihts are as a chamber militant, an auxilary force. Usually only Puritan inqusitors will have access to them, and by the time they're called upon, an inqusitorial taskforce will have been established, they're just there to deal with the daemons.

WLBjork
17-04-2005, 09:01
Ultramarines also modify their battlebarges to field lance batteries to better deal with their responsiblities. They also have extensive shipyards in orbit around Calth, meaning a large conventional fleet presence as well.

Hate to point this out, but that background has never been official, and the entire article about the SO has now been binned.

Current Space Marine ship background information (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/assets/pdf/official/spacemarines.pdf)

Delicious Soy
18-04-2005, 01:55
Hate to point this out, but that background has never been official, and the entire article about the SO has now been binned.

Current Space Marine ship background information (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/assets/pdf/official/spacemarines.pdf)Eh was a dim recollection of an article, I wasn't aware it had been scrapped. In any case, as proved by the Battle of Macragge, SM ships were never desingned for fleet warfare, they were very nearly destroyed before the arrival of a naval taskforce, which played the pivotal role in the battle (admittedly by the usual "We're boned! Overload the warp core!" technique favoured by so many of the Navy's admirals)