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Chimera
29-03-2007, 15:25
Right, so there's this guy at work who thinks he's the best thing that happened to Planet Earth since Genesis, and he's got this Eldar Fleet that's in dire need of a good sorting.

I have no idea what's in it, but we're going to be playing a 2,000 point game. I'll be using the Imperial Navy to administer said sorting.

Unfortuanately, my fleet was designed with Chaos Space Marines in mind, rather than Eldar, so it's a little lance-heavy (not to mention untested, I've not played a game in quite a while...)

The fleet list I was going to use was the Battlefleet Bakka, (Sector Tempestus), which gives me access to lots of nice ship classes.

Models I have:
Victory-class Battleship
several Lunar-class cruisers
Dominator-class cruisers
Gothic-class cruiser
Enforcer-class cruiser
several Firestorms

I've also got enough bits to make up a couple of Tyrants and a Mars (which I could reserve in from the Gothic list if need be). Unfortunately, I don't have any Swords or Falcions at the moment...

So I'm kinda low on flight bays (not a huge problem with the new rules) and have a high-ish proportion of lances.

Tactics-wise, aside from the usual 'AAAGH it's Eldar ships must support each other' issue, I'm wondering if it's worth using the lance batteries to spread fire across the Eldar fleet. Since their ships actually take damage on a 6 for moving through blast markers, a lance shot actually has two chances at doing damage - failing the save on a 1 roll, and then the blast marker produced if the save is passed.

Another thought I've had is possibly using a tempting target such as the battleship to draw out the deviants, with the rest of the fleet in such a position as to be able to exact bloody revenge after the 'bait' ship has taken the pasting it will doubtless receive.

I know a lot will depend on my oppoenent's set up, the mission and the battlefield, but if anyone's got any good ideas and/or suggestion for what's worked against Eldar for them, I'd be happy to hear them!

Satan
29-03-2007, 18:34
I wouldn't put my faith in lances. You need long-range Weapons batteries and fighters to protect you from ordnance.

IncrediSteve
30-03-2007, 04:49
It always worried me that every Tactica list published in Warpstorm, the 2002 Annual, and BFG magazine, by the designers themselves, always said "If you've got any tips for facing Eldar, please let me know!"


Your only hope is to trust in the Emperor I'm afraid.



No seriously, the Emperor Class Battleship. I never leave home without one against any foe, but against Eldar I'd say it's a double-must. The Emperor has the longest range forward capable firing weapon batteries, at a good strength 10 at that, and can bring S16 to bear broadside, or 11 both directions, or spreading fire in a 270 arc, etc. All at far longer than the Eldar's weapon ranges, and farther than they can be within striking distance and still escape out of harm's way.

Add in the prestigious Fighter coverage to combat their nasty torpedoes and bombers, and the Emperor should fit the bill nicely.

Now I'm sure your opponent will realize this, so using the Emperor as bait might not be the most prudent strategy [as the Eldar will likely go for it and could take it out without too terribly much trouble].

Zhai Morenn
30-03-2007, 14:32
I am in agreement with Satan, and as an Eldar player I can tell you my first response to that fleet would be long range massed torpedo cross fire to soften up your ships, if there are eclipses present bombers should be expected as well. If you are playing a 1k or more game and he fields a Void Stalker, things will most assuredly get ugly for your fleet due to it's high mobility, launch bays and wide arcs with extended range.

If you split your fleet up, or a smaller element becomes separated, you should expect your opponent to isolate and try to destroy it with combined ordnance and heavy direct fire attacks.

Bombers are nice against eldar but really the best solution is always to take some battery heavy ships. Swords are good eldar hunters but have a high mortality rate once they are further from the fleet, Dauntlesses are good though they are not as resilient as the full cruisers, and as far as normal cruisers and battlecruisers go, dominator, tyrants (with range upgrade) and Mars (with targeting computer upgrade) are nice.

Greblord
30-03-2007, 14:59
I am in agreement with Satan

I'd be careful about that ;)

Zhai Morenn
30-03-2007, 15:42
Better for me than to be in accord with Slaanesh. :-p

smileyface
31-03-2007, 01:11
Models I have:
Victory-class Battleship
several Lunar-class cruisers
Dominator-class cruisers
Gothic-class cruiser
Enforcer-class cruiser
several Firestorms

I've also got enough bits to make up a couple of Tyrants and a Mars (which I could reserve in from the Gothic list if need be). Unfortunately, I don't have any Swords or Falcions at the moment...

So I'm kinda low on flight bays (not a huge problem with the new rules) and have a high-ish proportion of lances.


I think you're in trouble. The things that work well on eldar are launch bays and long range batteries. You appear to be short on both (although I've no idea what a victory and enforcer are).

I'm with IncrediSteve on this - the scariest thing Imperials have is the Emporer battleship. Hideous gun batteries plus vast launch bays. Plus, assault boats are quite nasty too, compared with bombers. I mean, if it gets really bad, we can always run away from bombers, but assault boats are a bit quick.

The other thing that is (surprisingly) effective against eldar is the nova cannon, so the dominator isn't a bad choice.

For an ideal imperial fleet (from the gothic list), I'd take a pair of tyrants (the zealous and dominion, with upgrades), a pair of dominators, two mars, and an emporer. Then you fit in a Ld10 admiral and as many swords as you can get. Compare that with what you've got and... crap, it's nothing like.

On the lances, you're right though. Spread them around. They still won't be as good as batteries, but with what you've got it's the best you can do.

IncrediSteve
31-03-2007, 01:39
(although I've no idea what a victory and enforcer are).


Those were ships published in the 2002 Annual, so essentially official but not in Armada.

The Victory is basically an Imperial Desolater Battleship, with 6+ front hull and a Nova Cannon instead of torpedoes.

The Enforcer is basically a Dauntless with S1 launch bays instead of weapon batteries on the broadsides.

ReDavide
31-03-2007, 09:56
The Victory is basically an Imperial Desolater Battleship, with 6+ front hull and a Nova Cannon instead of torpedoes.
Damn, that thing's a steal compared to the Apocalypse.

bladestalker
31-03-2007, 15:31
have you played the match yet?

Chimera
31-03-2007, 20:27
Not playing until a week on Thursday :)

I've taken some advice and I'm getting hold of some more suitable ships -- I'll post my list and ideas later on...

bladestalker
31-03-2007, 22:50
make sure the new ships are a surprise to your opponent. :)

surprise is your friend.

fracas
31-03-2007, 23:03
i also agree with fielding 2+ mars and upgraded tyrants

Wraithbored
01-04-2007, 15:55
Also use combat space patrol to get rid of our pesky torpedoes. Us Eldar also like to hide in asteroid fields and jump out attack and jump in. Perhaps one of your ship s could be fitted with mines. And just lay em outside the asteroid field.

IncrediSteve
01-04-2007, 18:37
Damn, that thing's a steal compared to the Apocalypse.

Actually it costs just as much, so it's like a trade.

Lose 2 points of lance strength on the broadsides in order to always be able to fire them at 60cm without cutting power from the engines.

Chimera
22-06-2007, 13:59
Right, finally played the game at 1500 points plus an Admiral and re-rolls as extras.

My fleet was far from ideal, his fleet, well, it was an Eldar fleet.

So here we go:

Imperials (me)

Emperor Battleship
Overlord Battlecruiser
2x Lunar Cruiser
Dominator Cruiser
9x Sword Frigates (3 squadrons of 3)
2x Firestorm

Eldar Scum

2x Shadow Cruiser (with short-burn torpedoes)
5x Nightshades (with Vortex torpedoes!)
8x Hemlock
5x Aconite
5x Hellebore

May have a couple of details wrong on the Eldar fleet but you get the idea. The battlefield had one large asteroid field (which was on my side to the west), a small planet (on his side to the east) and a couple of small asteroid fields. We played a variant on Cruiser Clash.

I set up my fleet away from the large asteroid field, pretty much aiming directly towards the small planet - in case I needed to turn around when I got there! The Emperor was in the centre of the fleet, flanked by the Overlord. The two Lunars were at the eastern edge of my deployment zone, with the Dominator at the back, and the escorts in a kind of reverse 'L' shape, around the capital ships. The Eldar had their two Shadows directly ahead of my fleet, and then a mass of escorts arrayed across the table.

In the early stages, the Eldar fleet split up, about half the escorts headed towards the far side of the asteroid field, and the torpedo-launching ships fired salvoes towards my fleet. One of the Lunars had to take evasive action with a Burn Retros order, weapons fire from the fleet dealt with the remaining torpedoes. The Emperor started working on one of the Shadows, the Overlord picked off a couple of Aconites (I think). The carrier launched a full wave of fighters, which took up CAP positions with some reserves to the rear of the fleet.

The Nova Cannon didn't hit anything all game.

The combined fire of the Overlord, Dominator and Emperor, locking on, were forcing a few of his ships to brace, preventing either Lock On or Reload orders, and reducing their firepower to manageable levels.

By mid-battle, I'd picked off around 10 escorts for no loss (my own escort force was keeping out of range) and the Eldar launched a massive strike on my centre, forcing the battleship and battlecruiser to brace. Two full squadrons took up position behind the asteroid field (which I had kept a respectable distance from.

In my turn following the attack, my escorts threw themselves at the enemy, eliminating two full squadrons of Eldar. Return fire from the centre crippled one of the Shadows. In the following turn a lucky torpedo hit did 6 points of damage to the Overlord, but the shields on the Emperor held and it was not forced to brace.

The Lunars had by now gotten ahead of the main Imperial Fleet, and swung around to send waves of torpedoes into, and towards, the Eldar positions. One of the Lunars took almost-crippling damage from a counterattack and disengaged due to lack of support.

By the last turns, the Eldar escorts were decimated, and one of the cruisers disengaged crippled. A squadron of escorts was launching hit-and-run attacks from the asteroid field but was rapidly getting out of range. The game ended with the Imperial fleet loitering around the planet, safe from Eldar reprisals and launching bomber squadrons at the Eldar positions.

Final losses:

Imperials:
One Battlecruiser crippled and disengaged.
One Lunar cruiser disengaged.
One escort squadron destroyed, two crippled.

Eldar:
One Shadow crippled and disengaged.
Four escort squadrons destroyed, one crippled and disengaged.

Final Victory point total was 1100 to the Imperium and 320 to the Eldar.

I think my resounding victory was mostly due to not taking ANY bait that I was offered, keeping my Fleet together in a defensible formation, and my careful preservation of my escort forces until they were able strike a decisive blow.

We discussed the game afterwards and decided that it was the solid core of Emperor and Overlord that did most of the damage. His best performance came from the Nightshades with their vortex torpedoes crippling the Overlord with one (yes, one) hit. Had that not happened, and had I not messed up with one of the Lunars' position forcing me to disengage the ship to save it, the VPs total would have been more convincing.

It has to be said his plan was good, his elastic tape measure and (increasingly desparate and liberal) rules interpretation not good, and his target selection dire.

Praise the Emperor!

horizon
22-06-2007, 14:25
Under Official MSM rules:
The Eldar player lost with that celestial phenomena? What the *******? How could that happen?

Hellebores: NEVER EVER take them!
Shadow cruiser: never.

Did the Eldar player play the rules correctly?

slaaneshi3
22-06-2007, 16:48
Better for me than to be in accord with Slaanesh. :-p

OI! Thats offensive

Chimera
22-06-2007, 20:29
Under Official MSM rules:
The Eldar player lost with that celestial phenomena? What the *******? How could that happen?

Hmm. What's MSM rules? We were using the regular Eldar rules from the rulebook. Have they been changed? o.O

I stayed far enough away from the big asteroid belt to stop the hit-and-RUN being used to too great an effect :)


Did the Eldar player play the rules correctly?

Mostly. Had a few questions:

1: Do Eldar torpedoes ignore friendly targets?
2: We couldn't find the rule that says they don't (if there is one...), so can you opt to not re-roll the dice if you miss a friendly target with your Eldar torpedoes.
3: Short-burn torpedoes: Do they really go at double speed (60cm). That seems a bit broken to me!
4: Blast markers: Do Eldar have to test to avoid damage (ie not roll a 6) if they start their movement in contact with a marker but move away from it? Also, when saving on holofields, the Eldar player gets to choose where the Blast Marker is placed. Is this correct?
5: Escort squadrons: I was always under the impression that, when removing dead escorts, you started with ones closest to the attacker and work away, but my opponent said it was the 'owning player' who gets to choose which ones to remove.

Otherwise, yeah, cool game. After all, I won :D

ReDavide
22-06-2007, 21:31
Hmm. What's MSM rules? We were using the regular Eldar rules from the rulebook. Have they been changed? o.OMSM stands for Move-Shoot-Move, the standard Eldar rules. There are some experimental rules floating around that change that sequence, but I don't know much about them.


1: Do Eldar torpedoes ignore friendly targets?I see no special rule that would let them do this.

2: We couldn't find the rule that says they don't (if there is one...), so can you opt to not re-roll the dice if you miss a friendly target with your Eldar torpedoes.I dunno. The wording in the blue rulebook would have me say yes they can opt to not reroll, but maybe it's been FAQ'd otherwise.

3: Short-burn torpedoes: Do they really go at double speed (60cm). That seems a bit broken to me!:wtf: No, why on earth would someone think that? They go way slower than that (Armada pg. 157)

4: Blast markers: Do Eldar have to test to avoid damage (ie not roll a 6) if they start their movement in contact with a marker but move away from it?Yes. (2007 FAQ, page 2)

Also, when saving on holofields, the Eldar player gets to choose where the Blast Marker is placed. Is this correct?I'm a bit dubious about this, but can't find a strong argument either way. :eyebrows:

5: Escort squadrons: I was always under the impression that, when removing dead escorts, you started with ones closest to the attacker and work away, but my opponent said it was the 'owning player' who gets to choose which ones to remove.You're correct (rulebook page 38).

It sounds like this eldar player was a bit shady...

Otherwise, yeah, cool game. After all, I won :D

IncrediSteve
23-06-2007, 01:53
I think Horizon is a little overzealous on the Hellebores; sure they're expensive, but if used in moderation they can be a versatile little squadron.

Also, what's wrong with the Shadow?

Zhai Morenn
23-06-2007, 20:25
Lol, it sounds to me like your "greatest thing on earth" eldar player was more than slightly dubious. After all its easy to act like that when you make your own version of the rules.

Eldar torps ignoring friendlies? They don't

Eldar Torp rerolls if I recall are obligatory. At least thats what I recall from a FAQ regarding hulked ships so who knows.

Short Burn torps add only 10cm to the normal speed of torps rather than doubling it.

So overall it sounds like despite his shady interpretation of the rules you still spanked him. Much grats and well played.

horizon
25-06-2007, 04:40
Eldar torps re-roll failed to-hit rolls.

Hellebores 75pts
1 Nightshade & 1 Hemlock = 80pts
same weaponry, but two different targets, no special rules issue, faster

Shadow
2 Nightshades @ 2 Aconites = 210 points
same weapons, 4 different targets, harder to hit, no critical hit issues.

Within the Eldar fleet escorts are king.

horizon
25-06-2007, 04:46
Hmm. What's MSM rules? We were using the regular Eldar rules from the rulebook. Have they been changed? o.O


Like mentioned MSM = Move Shoot Move, official Eldar rules.

Good you started with them first instead of the MMS house rules.

But, I am the writer, alongside the 'main creator' Sigoroth, of the Eldar MMS house rules.

You can find them here: http://www.epic40k.co.uk/rules/gothic/geldarmms01.html

Besides fixing ships like the Hellebore and Shadow it adresses mainly the MSM rules themselves.
In MMS (move-move-shoot) Eldar are brought more into line with the other fleets. Making Eldar more fun, balanced & tactical challenging in the long run (note: MMS does not make Eldar stronger or weaker!)
There are already quite a few gaming groups who adapted the MMS ruleset in favour of the original rules.

But I'll stop hi-jacking the thread with this, if you have questions mail me or head over to the Specialist Games forum where MMS is developed further (v1.6 is on its way).