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guillimansknight
29-03-2007, 19:16
hey


if i make a SW army and paint them in imperial fist colours and tell my oppenent its a SW list do you think that would be ok


as for modeling i was thinking of making a wolf helm a big cool execptional helmet and making a wolf toth necklace into a necklasce with a fist on it ect

so would you have any problems with this ?

rev
29-03-2007, 20:10
do whatever colours yuo like bro just don't call them imperial fists!

guillimansknight
29-03-2007, 20:12
do whatever colours yuo like bro just don't call them imperial fists!


why not ??

or do you mean dont say its an imperial fist list?

The Finn
29-03-2007, 20:25
Why would you paint Space Wolves as Imperial Fists if you intend on using them as Space Wolves? Just paint them as SW.

Lyinar
29-03-2007, 20:57
Imperial Fists have absolutely no wolf iconography anywhere. Either make them Space Wolves, or make them Imperial Fists. Plus, the Imperial Fists have their traits already listed. If you don't want to play them as that kind of army, make them a fully Codex Astartes army.

If you want to play Space Wolves, why would you go through the absolute torture of trying to paint the entire army yellow when the Space Wolves have an easier paint-scheme, and a few alternatives that are just as easy (like painting them in pre-Heresy neutral grey instead of the bluish Space Wolves Grey).

muskrat
29-03-2007, 21:08
I'm pretty sure he's not talking about saying he's using SW(fluff wise) painted in IF forces.

Just using SW rules to represent IF forces.

Which wouldn't work, fluff wise. IF are one of the strictest Codex chapters. Plus I'm pretty sure you can't use a seperate, distinct chapter's rules to represent any other chapter besides a successor.

If not can't, then it's shouldn't- doesn't make sense.

superknijn
29-03-2007, 21:18
Why would you even want to do that=
Please, explain your motives.

Grimtuff
29-03-2007, 21:23
Yeah, i've play SW's for years and I cannot fathom what could make them seem "Imperial Fist-ey" :confused:

guillimansknight
29-03-2007, 22:07
Why would you even want to do that=
Please, explain your motives.

i like the paint scheme

also i aint using wolf gear i said i was going to use home made gear to represent stuff

im using a "backwards" IF army before the codex, they hated the codex ideals and only gave in to stop civil war -so a after HH but before the codex IF army

im using SW rules for IF

Grimtuff
29-03-2007, 22:46
Once again, why? You say you dislike the background for the IF yet you're using it in the context of another army list :confused:

Lets go through a few of the special rules shall we?

1)Blood Feud- How are you going to pass this one off?
2)SW's "veteran" scouts- You have no core recruit choice save Blood Claws (which could be used to rep Assault Marines, yet have inferior WS and BS)
3)Wolf Priests- Apothecary Chaplains, pretty much unique to the SW.
4)Iron Priests- Well, at least they'll make you want to go back to the standard SM list if you want Techmarines :rolleyes:
5)Counter Charge- does not fit IF at all IMO.

I think you're just doing this for the sake of doing it, if you think SW of one of the stronger SM lists out there you're sadly mistaken.

Champsguy
29-03-2007, 22:46
Do whatever you want. If you want to call them Imperial Fists, and some guy gets mad at you, then that's his problem. You can paint your Space Marines neon green and yellow and call them Blood Angels if you want to. You paid money for them - they're yours.

Rayek-san
29-03-2007, 22:55
In tornament you can have some problem: if you use a specific iconography you should use the right rules for them, or at least the generic SM trait rules.

I suggest to create your own personal SW successor chapter (using SW rules), paint them in yellow or as you like but call them "Wolf Paws" or something like that, just don't use the IF symbol, but one of your own.

rev
30-03-2007, 00:20
sounds to me like he wants yellow space wolves.

go for it dude. dont let people tell yuo that you cant do something, you can paint your minis however you like. call them the fists of russ or something.

rev

lord_blackfang
30-03-2007, 00:22
Ignore the fluff nazis. They're your models. You can paint them any way you like, regardless of the Codex you're using.

Grimtuff
30-03-2007, 00:32
Dont get me wrong, I don't care what codex is used TBH, all i'm looking for is some proper justification as to why said list was chosen. As nothing in the list jumps out at me to says "hey I could use these to rep IF!"

AlphaLegion
30-03-2007, 00:35
I am not a fluff nazi, but I think if you using the rules of a army they should be that army. Or I would of painted my Alpha Legion my own colors. or my Death Guard kill team.

Lyinar
30-03-2007, 00:37
I have to say again: Why go through the absolute torture of painting your models completely yellow if you're going to use Space Wolf rules?

Unless you already have your hands on the Foundation Paints, yellow is the single most evil colour in the entire Citadel Paint range.

As for the very short amount of time between the Horus Heresy and their adoption of the Codex Astartes, the Imperial Fists would still fit their representation in Codex: Space Marines far better than any other list, and the Space Wolves list is one of the worst choices to try to represent it, IMHO. The major problem Dorn had with the Codex Astartes wasn't the squad organization or any of that, it was that he would have to break up his beloved Legion.

Hell, I reckon I could make a Chaos list that would fit the Imperial Fists' specialties better than any list made using the Space Wolf Codex would.

Reflex
30-03-2007, 00:42
first of all, the specific codex armies, like SW, BA, DA and BT, you can only play those armies and second founding chapters in there own colours to use tehre rules. with the exception of deathwing (lets face it some chapters do sent all terminator squads into battle... rarly, but they do.)

so if you want space wolf rules, considering there are no second foundings, i would only play you in a tourny situation if they were painted like space wolves, otherwise i either wouldent play you or give you low sportsmanship...

its harsh, but i would not play yellow imperial fist wolves

Grimtuff
30-03-2007, 00:42
Hell, I reckon I could make a Chaos list that would fit the Imperial Fists' specialties better than any list made using the Space Wolf Codex would.

Well, yeah funnily enough, as CSM have access to the Siege Specialists skill.

Lyinar
30-03-2007, 00:52
There was a Second Founding of the Space Wolves... The Wolfbrothers. They just got "disbanded" by the Inquisition because they weren't as careful about sending Terra the same "flawless" geneseed over and over again... Of course, if you want to go with a different idea for a Space Wolves army, you could make a remnant warband from them that continues to fight on in the names of the Emperor and Russ.

Grimtuff: Yep. If you want to play alternate Imperial Fists, play Iron Warriors with no Obliterators or outright Daemonic stuff (at least not the stuff that doesn't exactly replicate non-Daemonic items like Artificier Armour). It fits far better than Space Wolves, and three Havoc Squads and a Vindicator are nothing to sneeze at.

Palatine Katinka
30-03-2007, 01:36
if i make a SW army and paint them in imperial fist colours and tell my oppenent its a SW list do you think that would be ok

Outside tournaments, yeah but it'll depend on your opponent. At GW tournaments, an army painted in a known colour scheme has to be that known army.


im using a "backwards" IF army before the codex, they hated the codex ideals and only gave in to stop civil war -so a after HH but before the codex IF army

The standard Codex list is probably still closer than Space Wolves. For a while I was considering a Black Templar army painted as Imperial Fists around that time. I'd read some background somewhere about Dorn taking a bunch of Marines who didn't want to split on a suicide mission to attack the Iron Warriors. They painted their armour black (or at least Dorn did) and took the opportunity to charge their most hated foe and die as part of the Imperial Fist Legion. If you want a more combaty Imperial Fist army, you could do something like this. If you want yellow Space Wolves, paint them yellow and use a different Chapter Badge.

PS: There may be Space Wolf successor's other than the Wolf Brothers, there are more than 2 foundings. There's over 20 and few of them are recorded.

SAMAS
30-03-2007, 03:06
I know we're supposed to be all supportive and "Damn the Fluff Nazis!" about this, but I'm sorry. To me, Using one army's rules to play another army(that already has rules of its own) just feels dishonest to me.

Rhamag
30-03-2007, 04:51
It would be like using Sisters of Battle but saying that they are actually female Space Marines and using a C:SM list. It's too confusing.

Reflex
30-03-2007, 06:25
There was a Second Founding of the Space Wolves...

Excatly.. was... :D

lord_blackfang
30-03-2007, 11:17
Wow, this thread is like a debate on morals or religion. Everyone gleefully enforcing arbitrary restrictions on what other people may do and think.

Or perhaps like schoolyard bullies, always looking for any excuse to harass someone. You wouldn't play someone because of the way his legally composed army is painted? Are yellow Space Wolves more likely to beat you or something?

Ronin_eX
30-03-2007, 11:50
I too see nothing wrong with it, as long as the entire army is "counts as" it should be fine. Just make sure your opponent knows before hand, it's as simple as that.

The only objection I can see is that Imperial Fists even before becoming codex weren't at all like the Space Wolves. Another option could be to go with the Black Templar (now that's some circular thinking for you, the successor's codex is being used to make the rules for the fisrt founding chapter) as they are made up of the crusader elements of the old Imperial Fist Legion.

In any case good luck with the project in whichever way you decide to go with it.

WLBjork
30-03-2007, 12:06
PS: There may be Space Wolf successor's other than the Wolf Brothers, there are more than 2 foundings. There's over 20 and few of them are recorded.

There are a number of recorded foundings, but there has only ever been one Successor Chapter to the Space Wolves recorded, and that was the Wolf Brothers.

The only other time a Successor Chapter may have appeared is during the Cursed Founding, as the records are incomplete.



Back on topic - as the others have said, if you want to do a pre-Codex Imperial Fists force, Codex: Black Templars would be a better source than Codex: Space Wolves.

Death Before Dishonour
30-03-2007, 12:22
I play as fists a use Black templar models and conversoins for veterans. I don't think there is ever a problem in this game as long as your opponent knows whats what, otherwise confusion and arguments can arise.
Thats what sportsmanship is all about, just make sure your opponent knows their following the wolves list. You can have some fun making up a story about their founding as well thats what I like to do when I start a new army.:D

jfrazell
30-03-2007, 13:11
Once again, why? You say you dislike the background for the IF yet you're using it in the context of another army list :confused:

Lets go through a few of the special rules shall we?

1)Blood Feud- How are you going to pass this one off?
2)SW's "veteran" scouts- You have no core recruit choice save Blood Claws (which could be used to rep Assault Marines, yet have inferior WS and BS)
3)Wolf Priests- Apothecary Chaplains, pretty much unique to the SW.
4)Iron Priests- Well, at least they'll make you want to go back to the standard SM list if you want Techmarines :rolleyes:
5)Counter Charge- does not fit IF at all IMO.

I think you're just doing this for the sake of doing it, if you think SW of one of the stronger SM lists out there you're sadly mistaken.

You could do a successor chapter (keep the paintscheme and tweek as you want), that has fallen away from original I Fist doctrine (which would strike me more as Black Templers then strict codex in the first place). As you noted, replace SW specific gear with appropriately named/themed codex gear-but make sure it is plain to those you are playing against.

Another option is to use Vanilla marine rules with doctrines similar to SW to avoid some SW specific gear that may be hard to model where your opponent knows it.

Edit: Personally I'm not a stickler here. If you're using a successor chapter, paint it what you want, and use whatever codex rules you want, as long as you stick solely with the benefits and limits of that codex.

yankeeboy
30-03-2007, 13:34
Actually, I don't care if he has yellow space wolves, per se. I would object if his marines were clearly Imperial Fists being played with Space Wolves rules. What would consititute that? If they were yellow, had standard company trim (often red of black are the favorite company choice for fist players), and had Imperial Fist iconography. In that case, they would clearly be Imperial Fists, and should be played as such.

On the other hand, if the gentleman painted his "wolves" yellow, but had space wolf iconography (shoulder pads, rhino doors, etc), I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I guess it really comes down to color + symbol, rather than color choice alone.

Captain Micha
30-03-2007, 13:38
personally, I would use the Bts rules for your real man's Imperial fist. *sorry the hair bow is a coward lol* Personally I feel that if they would have been willing to go to war over it that they would have stayed divergent enough (this counts for all legions against the codex ) to get their own codex. Not become smurfs of a differing color.

But if you wanna go space wolf, thats fine too. I just feel the Bts probably more fit what the Fists would be like than the wolves... perhaps an Iron Warriors as well would work..... (again no daemonic stuff or daemons and you will do fine)

*Note the Hairbow is Roboute.... I also call him the Gullible...*

jfrazell
30-03-2007, 13:48
It would be like using Sisters of Battle but saying that they are actually female Space Marines and using a C:SM list. It's too confusing.
Sounds like a cool idea actually. Wait I think I've seen some conversions like that somewhere.

Go chicks with sticks!

devolutionary
30-03-2007, 13:58
I'd have no issues with this, though I would call you completely nuts and I'd want to ensure that all equipment is adequately justified on the model, but I expect that from anyone. As someone who has plans for a traited Ultramarines force, I say go for it. Though in tournaments you will hit the wall, as they are not technically WYSIWYG (IF are IF, and they already have rules)

Overlord Krycis
30-03-2007, 14:04
Wow...all this over someone wanting to paint a yet another SM army as something else...
Fluff-wise...I agree with most of the people on this thread. It's going to be a stretch to validate all the options that appear in C:SW as a pre-Heresy Imperial Fists force.
Gaming/modelling-wise...go for it! It's your army and as long as you inform your opponent before-hand about the peculiarities of your army it should be fine.
However, if you want to play any tournaments with it, you will need to use C:SM with Traits as most Tourney organisers are a little fidgety about having one named Chapter's rules being used for another named Chapter's paint scheme.

Mr Zephy
30-03-2007, 14:06
My vote is with devolutionary:

I would let you do it, but it makes no sense. at all.

Champsguy
30-03-2007, 14:07
Again, ignore the fluff nazis. If somebody says "I wouldn't play with you if you have yellow Space Wolves", don't worry, because he's just some guy on the 'net, and probably lives in another country anyway.

I thought about doing a Space Marine army and painting them up in red,white, and blue and putting US flags on everything. Is this supported by the fluff? Who cares? If a guy told me he wouldn't play me because my army wasn't painted right, I'd tell him he needs to get a girlfriend.

If you use the SW codex because you like it, and the IF paint scheme because you like it, that's fine. Do whatever you like.

the1stpip
30-03-2007, 14:10
At the end of the day, if he wants yellow space wolves, have yellow space wolves, but don't call them Imperial Fists.

I was going to do orange space wolves and call them the Thundercats Chapter (Sworde of Omens - Master Crafted Power Sword, with Auspex (Eye of Thundera), but never got around to it...

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
30-03-2007, 14:23
I say let him have it! If you wanna paint your boys yellow, and like the squad composition of SW, by all means go ahead and do it;)
If you're participating in local tournaments, just create some random fluff, as long as it doesnt contain any "imperial fist" stuff in it, it should be fine

MasterModakai
30-03-2007, 15:29
No problems here, fluff or ruleswise. So long as you inform your opponent about it, I'd say all's far since it is a legal Codex army.

The only things you need to watch out for are those sticklers about matching fluff and the little blurb in the SM 'dex about using the listed traits or straight COdex rules for know chpaters. The first is easy to deal with, don't play against them and you could through in Champsguy's bit about getting a girlfriend/boyfriend, depending on the gender of your opponent.

The second shouldn't be much of an issue with your friends/group, however, some could still pretty anal in that regards as well. To get around this, just alter the color scheme or chapter badge a bit.

mcbogi
30-03-2007, 17:53
I don't understand these people who are so incredibly anal that they "either wouldent play you or give you low sportsmanship" etc.

I've never seen a rule which says that one cannot use the counts-as effect to represent a known chapter. Fluff =! Rules.

I suppose the nay-sayers would refuse to play my counts-as Alpha Legion Egyptian themed CSM army, because I use Thousand Sons models, despite them being extensively converted. :rolleyes:

To the OP: You can use any army list to represent your army, just make sure to convert the models(as you've already said you'll do) and tell your opponents what the deal is.

SAMAS
30-03-2007, 19:37
At the end of the day, if he wants yellow space wolves, have yellow space wolves, but don't call them Imperial Fists.

That's pretty much my point. It's not the color, or the conversions. Those are cool.

But playing one army's models as another's crosses the line, IMO.


I don't understand these people who are so incredibly anal that they "either wouldent play you or give you low sportsmanship" etc.

I've never seen a rule which says that one cannot use the counts-as effect to represent a known chapter. Fluff =! Rules.

I suppose the nay-sayers would refuse to play my counts-as Alpha Legion Egyptian themed CSM army, because I use Thousand Sons models, despite them being extensively converted. :rolleyes:

Depends. If they had a primarily Thousand Sons-style color scheme, marks of Tzeentch all over the units, and Horrors that "count as" cultists, then yes.

Grimtuff
30-03-2007, 19:45
Can I just reaffirm something here, I have no problem with the choice of list being used for gameplay purposes. But the reason I am so baffled by this is what drove him to the SW list in the first place, when there are (at least) 2 other perfectly adequate lists (CSM and BT) that would represent what he is going for a helluva lot better.

mcbogi
30-03-2007, 19:46
That's pretty much my point. It's not the color, or the conversions. Those are cool.

But playing one army's models as another's crosses the line, IMO.

And what line might that be, your arbitrary 'fluff-based moral-superiority complex' line?


Can I just reaffirm something here, I have no problem with the choice of list being used for gameplay purposes. But the reason I am so baffled by this is what drove him to the SW list in the first place, when there are (at least) 2 other perfectly adequate lists (CSM and BT) that would represent what he is going for a helluva lot better.

Why does that matter? If he feels his vision of whatever he's trying to do is best represented with a space wolves based list, isn't it his prerogative?

zendral
30-03-2007, 19:47
Like others have said, its your models. I would raise an eyebrow to what your doing, but I wouldn't tell you not to do it. As long as you told me what models are what, fine. I just would not be happy about something a bit outrageous as saying a terminator is actually a scout marine. But if a model looks like a librarian, then its obvious that it is a rune preist. Be warned, the army (I think) will not be allowed in some tournaments.

t-tauri
30-03-2007, 19:49
And what line might that be, your arbitrary 'fluff-based moral-superiority complex' line?

Let's not start throwing around lines like that. More posts in that vein will not be welcome.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

Da Reddaneks
30-03-2007, 19:53
I fail to see the big deal. Its simply a second (or latter) founding of spacewolves. "The Imperial Wolves" or something along those lines.

Grimtuff
30-03-2007, 19:57
I fail to see the big deal. Its simply a second (or latter) founding of spacewolves. "The Imperial Wolves" or something along those lines.

With that, I not problem or indeed bafflement as it is not an established existing chapter, so you could use whatever SM list you liked with no qualms. But IF have certain combat doctrines that is not best represented by the SW list IMO.

As already said the better lists would be CSM, (specifically IW) and BT.

monkey child
30-03-2007, 19:59
I don`t think I would have a problem with this if it was along the lines of, second founding, ties to both chapters Fists of Fenris or somthing like that. But to me it would need a background explaination as I dont think spacewolves rules fit the Imperial Fists fighting style.

Having said that, their your minis so sod it, if your vision of the fluff is best repesented by Space puppy rules go for it.

Clang
30-03-2007, 20:06
to keep everyone happy, call them Imperial Wolves (or whatever), they have yellow armour (think up some fluff reason to justify) but no Fists iconography (and don't necessarily use Space wolves iconography either, although some wolfy bits would make sense), and state up front that they 'play as space wolves'

scarletsquig
30-03-2007, 20:06
5 Types of people in this thread:

1. "You're a ***** for even considering a deviation from the official background"
2. "Really don't like the idea, how about [insert idea here] instead?"
3. "It'd be a bit daft, but I'd still play you. Don't expect everyone to feel the same way though"
4. "Do whatever the hell you like!"
5. "I hate fluff nazis and the stupid losers should go get a girlfriend."


I think I'm somewhere between 3 and 4... :)

Palatine Katinka
30-03-2007, 21:06
I think I'm a mix of 2, 3 and 4!

I've given suggestions of alternative ideas, including one I plan to do sometime. (2)
I'd play him but probably keep asking what things were because I'm forgetful and unless they looked different from Imperial Fists, he may have problems at GT's (where this matter is covered in the rules pack for the GT). (3)
I'm probably never going to meet him let alone play him! (4)

WLBjork
30-03-2007, 21:06
I've never seen a rule which says that one cannot use the counts-as effect to represent a known chapter. Fluff =! Rules.

The answer to that is between yes and no.

Without "fluff", we'd be playing Generic Sci-Fi Skirmish X and there would be no distinction between the Space Marines - they'd all be standard.

Someone wants to do Space Wolves with Yellow Armour and Wolf markings is one thing. Someone doing Space Wolves in Imperial Fist colours and iconography is a whole other matter.

Grimtuff
30-03-2007, 21:11
Someone wants to do Space Wolves with Yellow Armour and Wolf markings is one thing. Someone doing Space Wolves in Imperial Fist colours and iconography is a whole other matter.

My point exactly! Thankyou! :)

Palatine Katinka
30-03-2007, 21:17
I've never seen a rule which says that one cannot use the counts-as effect to represent a known chapter. Fluff =! Rules.

Try here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/events/diary/default.aspx?display=tournaments). Download the 2006 Grand Tournament pack for 40K, look at page 4, around the bottom left, the bullet point about inventing your own Chapter but it being "not permissable" to use use a "recognised Chapter" with the Codex of a different Chapter.

As I've been saying, the problem would be at a tournament, not during friendly gaming.

guillimansknight
30-03-2007, 23:05
GGGAAAHHH!!!!!!!!! abort ! abort !!!!

omg this is info overload ................


ok this idea is chucked

i wanted to go to the tourney aswell

AlphaLegion
30-03-2007, 23:09
...They could be a SW sub chapter or some thing, but dont use the same paint colors as IF, like use a different trim color. I guess we lose as the Keeping it the right colur' crew.

Lyinar
31-03-2007, 00:54
My point is this: if you want to play Space Wolves, then play bloody Space Wolves, or at least some insane Cursed Founding successor, or a remnant warband of the Wolfbrothers (which is actually an idea I had with my ancient, abandoned Shadow Wolves).

If you want to play Imperial Fists, then play Imperial Fists. Grimtuff missed the mark by one. There are three lists that fit the sons of Rogal Dorn FAR better than the Space Wolves ever will: the Imperial Fists traits in Codex: Space Marines, the Black Templars (while they don't quite fit with the whole siegemasters thing, they ARE a Second Founding IF successor, and they do fit part of the Imperial Fists outlook), and then their archrivals, the Great Crusade's OTHER set of siege specialists: The Iron Warriors.

Having come from an RPG background, and in fact being a published author in that vein, I DO say that the storytelling aspect is the second most important part of Warhammer 40k, with the first being the same one the BGB states: HAVE FUN!

All using Space Wolves to represent Imperial Fists will do is confuse literally everyone you would ever want to play against. Thus, it doesn't fit in with the most important part of Warhammer 40k, and as the Imperial Fists were never anything like the Space Wolves, before or after the Heresy, it doesn't fit what I believe to be the second most important part, either.

Literally the only thing the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves have in common is that they originally rejected the Codex Astartes, and they didn't even do that for the same reasons. The Imperial Fists never fought with a Bolter in one hand and a Chainsword in the other. They never had the ability to track an enemy by smell. They never had massive hordes of Power-Armoured Space Marines who were still in training. And the Space Wolves never had the same number of heavy weapons, nor the siege training, nor, most importantly, the famed discipline of the Imperial Fists.

Grymlok
31-03-2007, 01:21
Okay, I'm confused. I have a Space Wolves army, abiet one that I inherited from my brother. I also have a smaller Imperial Fists army, which I painted and collected myself (my brother also collected up a large orc army, and I a chaos army. I collected the IF's so I could play proper codex good guys against him). Oh the days of WAY cheaper models.

Any way, the Space Wolves models that are specifically designed to be Space Wolves are quite destinct. You can paint them Yellow all you want, but they'll still look like Ragnars boys. I would suggest you file off the things that make them look "Space Wolvish". (I do appologise if that is terrible english!)

SAMAS
31-03-2007, 02:07
And what line might that be, your arbitrary 'fluff-based moral-superiority complex' line?
The WYSIWYG line, for one.

mcbogi
31-03-2007, 02:17
Try here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/events/diary/default.aspx?display=tournaments). Download the 2006 Grand Tournament pack for 40K, look at page 4, around the bottom left, the bullet point about inventing your own Chapter but it being "not permissable" to use use a "recognised Chapter" with the Codex of a different Chapter.

As I've been saying, the problem would be at a tournament, not during friendly gaming.

Thanks for that, but I still stand by my view. Rules =! Fluff. It seems like there are two differing schools of thought at work here. Those who believe that fluff > all (including a player's prerogative to paint/play their miniatures like they want, within the scope of the rules). And those who believe that fluff is just that, background to enrich the playing environment. I kinda see this as the difference between religious fundamentalists and those who don't think religion should supercede other values/desires people might have.
(I mean no disrespect by this comparison, it's just an observation :) )

If I wanted to play a blood angels list and paint them pink I'd want to be able to play without being either berated or shunned.


The WYSIWYG line, for one.

Do you expect all red space marines to be Blood Angels by default? I've never considered colour scheme to be a part of WYSIWYG myself. Weapons and notable wargear yes but not colour scheme.

Lyinar
31-03-2007, 02:21
Yeah, and all you'd have to do to create the "Pink Angels" would be to make a paragraph, at most, to create a new Blood Angels successor somewhere within the 800-something Space Marine Chapters that aren't already created.

The problem that I see is taking a Chapter, and indeed a Legion which already have very specific characteristics (some of which are laid down as RULES), and trying to represent them with something that is almost the exact antithesis of those characteristics.

mcbogi
31-03-2007, 02:26
Well, for me it'd be enough that someone said: "Yeah these are my Blood Angels, I just wanted to paint them pink."

Like I did with my 'Grey Knights', I painted them black. You know, because I wanted them to be black.

Krog Ironclaw
31-03-2007, 02:32
Apparantly I'm the minority, but I'd have no problem with this. The way I look at it is this: It's no different than using Lost and the Damned (a list that represents Chaos) as Adeptus Mechanicus or Rogue Traders (for example). If you want to play Imperial Fists but prefer the rules in Space Wolves, then by all means, go for it. That's why "Counts As" exists.

Lyinar
31-03-2007, 03:28
"Counts As", in the admitted intention of the rules developers, breaks down significantly when attempting to use a force that already has its own rules. "Counts As" is specifically intended to represent armies that don't currently have rules, such as, say, Genestealer Cults, Rogue Traders, or Adeptus Mechanicus armies (the latter being fairly well-represented by WH/DH allies with Skitarii-themed IG).

SisterMordagg
31-03-2007, 03:30
I think we should let this die and leave poor guillimansknight alone.

BigJon
31-03-2007, 04:40
Call them the "Imperial Paws". You models, you money, just make sure
whom ever you play knows what they are going up against.

BigJon

Lisiecki
31-03-2007, 06:31
You know, I honestly cant say i see the problem.
Im just in the process of building my first army after taking 10 years off playing, but i really cant see much of a problem if the person i was playing set down a bunch of painted up Imp Fists, and told me "im using Space Wolf rules for these guys".
Now, i dont think its the best way to capture the feel of the Fists (Iron Warriors or Suffer not the Heritics would be better) but if its what gets this players a thrill, then why not?

Honestly ive been thinking of painting up a bucnh of Termies with Black Templar colors and using deathwing rules for them.

lord_blackfang
31-03-2007, 08:36
So, would you guys also refuse to play against, for example, an all-infantry Eldar army in Saim-Hann colours? Or any IG army not using the doctrines appropriate to the models?

Reflex
31-03-2007, 08:46
So, would you guys also refuse to play against, for example, an all-infantry Eldar army in Saim-Hann colours? Or any IG army not using the doctrines appropriate to the models?

thats a different situation... where is codex siam hann? you do realise that the doctrines in the back of the imperial guard codex are subject to some regiments only from that planet.

like the cadian doctrines are not shared by all cadians. that is heavily the basis on the Cadian 8th. oh and look there is a deathworld codex, yet there are still catachans in the imp guard codex. the DKoK have many different style regiments. the one in the Imp Codex focuses on the locked in trench warfare DKoK regiments. what about the assault regiments and the mechanised regiments.

its a different situation.

lord_blackfang
31-03-2007, 11:11
What about traited Ultramarines? We've seen plenty around here.

Reflex
31-03-2007, 12:48
i dont agree with traited ultramarines... i just havent been asked weather or not i do or dont agree... but i dont... ultramarines are ultramarines and being ultramarines they can only be ultramarines, not ultramarines with traits but only ultramraines because as theya re ultramarines they adhere to the codex there primarch laid down and they, as ultramarines, only follow it and it only as ultramarines...

(is that a record for the amount of times the word ultramarines has been said in one sentance? :D)

Zzarchov
31-03-2007, 13:41
You can use Space Wolf rules, paint them yellow and call themwhatever you want. You might get some WYSIWYG issues with some pieces of wolf wargear so you would need to clear that up with your opponent before hand.

"Ie, this do-dad here countas as a Wolf Helmet"

Captain Micha
31-03-2007, 13:44
SMURFS HERESY BURN AGH *chokes on all his blue paint which I've never used* hmmmm I see a problem here.... I need to use blue paint!

Reflex, I would go as far as to say that the traits exist only because of ultrasmurf second foundings and foundings thereafter.... Only because of with the exception of a couple of those draw backs, they really do not affect chapter organisation at all. and thus the chapter still has the codex so rightly up its hindquarters.

I think Gw needs a codex Imperial Fists, that Blood Angels should be truly non codex (not non codex pretending to be codex yet not pretending to be all at the same time wtf?) Spacewolves codex, a codex Salamanders, (don't need a codex white scars.. .why? ....since when did they do anything other than ride bikes?... plus ravenwing represents them....disturbingly well) anyone that said stfu to the hairbow that would remain too divergent for a codex (even I'll admit the white scars are too divergent to be in smurf dex... simply cause... a fluffy scars player would not be taking side weapons on the preds... command squad bikers.... etc) some of the chapters of legend are represented quite well in fluff by the ultrasmurf dex. Others...not so much.

As the Imperial Fists stand in the codex smurfs.. they really don't scream rivals of the Iron Warriors, for siege specialists the only thing that really even vaguely at best touches on this is that stupid rule where the enemy gets an extra turn... wth? How bout having devaster elites instead as the perk instead of what they got? even -that- is more siege oriented.

Codex Bt only really works because of the mass crusaders they can have. at least in my mind so the best bet would be Iron Warriors as it currently stands.... Or make them a 'successor' chapter of some sort using different traits and drawbacks

scarface
01-04-2007, 07:25
Dude, you can paint them any colour you like, only fools say otherwise ...

Varath- Lord Impaler
01-04-2007, 11:01
Hell, im using my Imperial Fists with Dark Angel rules..

SAMAS
02-04-2007, 01:45
Do you expect all red space marines to be Blood Angels by default? I've never considered colour scheme to be a part of WYSIWYG myself. Weapons and notable wargear yes but not colour scheme.

Iconography.

Sure, red Space Marines can be of any number of chapters, but if I see red space marines adorned with winged blood drops, Predators with dual chainguns, and a bunch of black-armored guys in jetpacks, I'm going to think "Blood Angels."

SAMAS
02-04-2007, 01:48
So, would you guys also refuse to play against, for example, an all-infantry Eldar army in Saim-Hann colours? Or any IG army not using the doctrines appropriate to the models?

*Psst* Bad example. Their respective codexes have explicitly stated that you can do that. :D

L' aéronautique d' Eldar
02-04-2007, 01:59
i dont agree with traited ultramarines... i just havent been asked weather or not i do or dont agree... but i dont... ultramarines are ultramarines and being ultramarines they can only be ultramarines, not ultramarines with traits but only ultramraines because as theya re ultramarines they adhere to the codex there primarch laid down and they, as ultramarines, only follow it and it only as ultramarines...

(is that a record for the amount of times the word ultramarines has been said in one sentance? :D)

But say u wanted to do a specific company? like the 8th coy, with its bikes an assault marines (check codex). the only way to do it would be to use traits!

Gray Hunter
03-04-2007, 06:22
If you like the Space Wolves rules, but want a yellow army then by all means paint a yellow Space Marine army and tell your opponent that you are using the rules from Codex Space Wolves. Just don't call them Imperial Fists. Imperial Fists already have their own rules, and they are nothing at all like the Space Wolves rules. It's just far too confusing.

It sounds to me like you like the rules from one army but the background of another. Make up your own Chapter - people will applaud you for it. It will even be tournament legal so long as your opponent knows what unit counts as what.

Zedric
03-04-2007, 06:46
In tornament you can have some problem: if you use a specific iconography you should use the right rules for them, or at least the generic SM trait rules.

I suggest to create your own personal SW successor chapter (using SW rules), paint them in yellow or as you like but call them "Wolf Paws" or something like that, just don't use the IF symbol, but one of your own.
I'm going to second this.

There's only one major restriction in 'counts as' - you can't use an army painted as a specific themed army (which has existing rules) and count them as a different specific themed army (which has existing rules). This applies to other armies to a (much) lesser extent. As was mentioned earlier, 'counts as' is a specific allowance for armies that don't yet have army lists (or never will, as in the case of the Deff Wing all-mega-armour Ork army). Using it in any other way deliberately causes confusion otherwise.

That said, I speaking from tournament or strict opponent point-of-view. Slap 'em down on a friendly table with me and you can do whatever the heck you want, so long as it's mostly WYSIWYG. :)

"What, your bolter-wielding World Eaters count as Thousand Sons? Ummm... alright, let's see whatcha got!"