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Panophobia
29-07-2005, 13:48
Well this is my 2000pt lizardmen list that my friends say is unbeatable. I'm wondering what other people think.

610 - slann 2nd gen., plaque of protection, plaque of tepok, diadem of power, battle standard bearer warbanner.

130 skink priest lv2 blood statuette of spite

140 skink priest lv2 cube of darkness

84 14 skinks javelin and shield

84 14 skinks javelin and shield

70 10 skinks blow pipes and scouts

70 10 skinks blow pipes and scouts

222 16 sauruses with full command

247 16 sauruses with full command, spawning of tepok

105 3 teradons

105 3 teradons

130 2 salamanders

:confused:

Frankly
29-07-2005, 15:32
I think its very beatable(I'm not saying its and bad list, just beatable), would you like to know how?

Snoozer
29-07-2005, 15:54
you really don't have any heavy hitters in it, no kroxies or saurus cavalry.

Is your plan just to magic and shoot the enemy to death, no I wouldn't say thats unbeatable.

:D

TeddyC
29-07-2005, 16:12
Difficult for a banalced army to beat... but not unbeatable.....

Khorne knights would have an easy job taking apart most units and dispelling most of the spells.

Skaven shooty army of death would see a lot of stuff dead before it got within range.

Like other have said, hard... but by no means unbeatable.

gortexgunnerson
29-07-2005, 17:50
I think heavily armour armies that are basically immune to missile fire such as bretonnians will cause problems as you have difficulty getting enough kills. And due to a lack of hard hitting units they can just go straight for the 2nd generation Slann's unit which is likely to get abit slapped by a brettonian lance or other such nasty like choas knights etc.

I would guess the correct way to play to is totally ignore the skinks and go for the rest of the army. Generally straight at the slann as if he goes the rest must follow.

But its a nice list with abit of everything, maybe a bit more fight is needed but magic, missile and skirmishers are all very good in this edition whereas combat units got played down abit

fubukii
29-07-2005, 18:36
eh it dont look unbeatable by far you have 800+ points of characters.

Panophobia
30-07-2005, 02:15
The slann usually sets up in terrian where he can't be seen and movement towards him is hindered. I use lore of heaven mostly. I do see a problem with lots of high armour or toughness models. The heavy hitting comes from magic. maybe its just the armies i play? the main people i've played alot are VC and DE? I usually only lose 2 units and always a massacare one time i played the VC guy and i got 2,400 victory point difference!

P.s. for terrian we use the realm of men list in every 2' x 2' section on a 6' x 4' table.

taer
30-07-2005, 03:32
Heh, that's funny. That's almost verbatum for the army my friend always runs. I beat it down with a very balanced (actually, one of the weakest army lists I've ever played with) chaos dwarf army today. So I'd say no, it isn't unbeatable, just very nasty. Though it is even squishier than elves.

Frankly
30-07-2005, 04:12
Heh, that's funny. That's almost verbatum for the army my friend always runs. I beat it down with a very balanced (actually, one of the weakest army lists I've ever played with) chaos dwarf army today. So I'd say no, it isn't unbeatable, just very nasty. Though it is even squishier than elves.

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but what did you have in your CD armylist ... I'm playing abit of CD at the moment.

taer
30-07-2005, 05:28
Well, first off, I should say we are playing 2250 army lists at the moment as there is a tournament we are trying to prepare for in November.

My list had 5 units of 16 choas dwarf warriors in it, 3 with HW and shield, 2 w/ HW shield and great weapons. I also had 5 units of 10 hobgoblins with no equipment for a missile screen, a hobgoblin bolt thrower, an earthshaker, 8 bull centaurs w/ GW, L.A., and no standard, 2 lv. 2 chaos dwarf sorcerers, 1 with staff of sorcery and 1 with chalise of darkness, a BSB with H.A., the biting blade, and Black gem of Gnar for protection, and a Chaos dwarf lord with Black hammer of hashut (which is useless unless you are fighting flamable crap), Armor of Gazhrakk (the 1+ armor save thingy) and the gauntlet's of Bazrakh the Cruel, mounted on a Great Taurus purely because I have never actually fielded a large flying monster before.

nurgle_boy
30-07-2005, 06:45
ever heard of terror?

id say a terror causer would be able to smash up your lines if you fail a few leadership cheacks...


otherwise, any fast unit can deal with skinks, especially wolf riders, een if you try to flee....

the saurus units are too small to cause much damage, so the only real threat is magic, but thats nothing a few hochland rifles/eadbutt spells cant solve, and dont worry, orcs can overpower your magic when they get to combat....

fubukii
30-07-2005, 08:43
vanhels dance with dire wolves > skinks :)

nurgle_boy
30-07-2005, 11:39
thinking about it, skinks are toughness 2 yes?

anything that requires a toughness test.....


can you say 'lore of nurgle'?

Panophobia
03-08-2005, 05:08
My skinks stay back in terrian and are there for screens and harrasment they don't get in combat they stay out of it. The skinks don't do much its the magic and i deploy it out of los behind terrian. I played a ork player he quit on the 3rd turn playing heavy magic. he had no chance of winning. all of my units sit mostly in my deployment zone and protect my slann. all of my games have been massacares.

I deploy my slann out of sight so how do hocoland long rifles and eadbutt spells do anything i'll have seven dispel dice with +1 and typicaly 9 dice. I'll have 10 power dice + about 4 with my slann and maybe 2 more with diadem.

Does any one think theres a match up problem against VC or DE? I massacare them all the time.

gortexgunnerson
03-08-2005, 09:02
Well DE have T3 so have always have trouble with missile/magic heavy armies. And VC need control of the magic phase to be played correctly. I would guess their more fighty armies then magic armies? Basically surely anyone taking a similar list from another race will have a good shot. High Elves Lv 4 Book of hoeth, 3 Lv2 with 2 bound spells and a few dispel scrolls is quite common and the Lv4 will just cast munchy crunchy ultimate force on your slann till it dies.

I actually really rate your list but not hanging back, thats just magic war and their are lots of armies that can do it better High elves and Tzeentch being the best example. I think your army would do better if it moved forward and used the flexibility of Sals, skinks and terradons with the large number of attacks from saurus

Panophobia
03-08-2005, 09:58
Why are they better at magic? I've said that my slann is deployed out of sight so there spells won't be targetting me (slann)... He is also second gen so when he casts a spell he gets another powerdice to through in. I'll have one dispel scroll that will end the turn on 50% a item that can kill low toughness characters any where instantly (almost)! I don't quite see how heavy magic would be a problem for a slann? Maybe i'll have to ask one of my friends to play magic heavy and test it out.

gortexgunnerson
03-08-2005, 16:29
I think High Elf magic army has the edge as:

Life magic is the new magical superpower as it does the most damage and doesn't require line of sight casting. Also if your Slann is in cover it takes extra hits. On 3 or 4 dice cast the Lv4 with book of hoeth has a very high percentage chance of being irrestible force. Which means they will start to damage your slann, and if he goes its all over.

The item your talking about is blood statue of spite I presume, which only has a 25% chance of killing a Lv2 (if not dispelled) and 12.5% for killing the Lv4. As a bound spell is easy to dispel especially with the +1 for being a high Elf.

The 2 high Elf bound items availble are really good too giving 2D6 str4 hits very good against skirmishers and the destroy item spell is very good (if you can get it off). I rate

High Elf magic as better due to the book of hoeth (potentially most powerful item in the game due to the over power of magic in this addition) and the fact they can get 2 wizards with ability to cast high level spells (Lv4, and Lv2 Wizard with channelor, seer and silver wand (3 spells, can choose spells and can cast with up to 4 dice) means they have 2 wizards with access to the really damaging spells which are potentially denied to a Lv2. The key to effective magic is to ensure that you cast every spell to draw dispel scrolls and dice or to damage the oppenent.

The normal High Elf infantry list I use goes something like this,

Lv4 Book of Hoeth
Lv2 Dispel, Ring of Fury
Lv2 Seer, channelor, silver wand
Lv2 Ring of Vaul, Jewel of dusk (quite often swapped for a Battle standard with world dragon banner (makes unit immune to magic))

3 * 10 archers
Small unit of swordmaster with banner of soccery and (-3 on casting roll item on bladelord)
Small unit of spearmen
4 bolt throwers

This especially if the battle standard is used should have an edge in a magically battle (unit with Lv4 is immune to all magic but albe to cast out) also as there are 4 wizards that can take life magic and so will eat armies hiding and has plently of shooting for when yor in the open

Give this to your mate and ask him to try it out take as the 3 chosen spells Master of stone, master of woods and howler wind

Cpt. Drill
03-08-2005, 17:29
to make it infinatly more poowerful you need to drop the two units of saurus and add two units of kroxigors and the rocket saurus!

nurgle_boy
03-08-2005, 17:47
i could outmagic it with orcs. immune to phsychology units get up close whilst i dispell all your magic, and once they get into combat, i get extra powerdice.

also, if i can get los, i can get eadbutt.
i could always take the big waaaargh and have Gork warpath your ass!

if you use the right list to outmagic, outnumber, outmove, and outcombat, you can win.

Panophobia
05-08-2005, 12:18
Yea I guess if an army is made to beat it I could see that. I'm not to familiar with other army books. But what about if it was played agianst normal lists?

I'll have to let my friends know about this...

Zombie Cow
05-08-2005, 19:48
Sounds like the most boring list in the world if all you do is sit in your deployment zone and try to magic everyone to death.

I bet your friends get sick of playing it pretty fast, huh? :rolleyes:

Lady's Champion
05-08-2005, 20:01
Yea, I'll bet too. That lists looks very beatable to me i can see my armies would have no problem- not that I'm conceited, I can just see it. My friend played a similar lists some time back and psychology proved problematical, as did the overall squidgy-ness of a Slann

Naghaz
05-08-2005, 20:13
Well I see things a bit differently than most here apparently. Your list is downright tough to beat for many balanced armies.

First off its hard to get any VP's against your units as they simply run away while you magic/shoot everyone to death. Certainly the army is beatable, but so is any army if you do what the other responses in this thread are doing; IE: Build an army to beat it.

For your standard take all commers armies the list you built is a rather unfun match in my opinion. If you really enjoy the theme then thats something but to be honest, its a bit like a Skaven SAD army in it exploits some of the extrememly tough and or irrational special rules, and shoves them down your opponents throat.

Again this army is beatable, but average take all commer lists will have some serious trouble against it. (imho of course)

GrandMasterNinja
10-08-2005, 19:15
Thank you Naghaz, finally a non-conceited person stands up.

I'm friends with Panophobia and I've played a very heavy magic O+G army agaisnt him. He beat me pretty handily but it was my first Fantasy game (I play 40K mostly) so that says a lot. I've watched other people try and beat his army with their balanced army and it never works out well for them. Yes a list specifically designed to beat his list would do well, duh! The point and fact is that his army is very tough to beat, unbeatable, no, nothing really is, but tough as nails to defeat, very much true.

I'm not sure where this thread is going now. I guess the question is should he play a more balanced list so friends that play him can compete or should he stick with it? I say go more balanced but it's up to you luke

gortexgunnerson
10-08-2005, 19:54
Actually the list I gave for my high elves is what I play against all comers when I use them, mainly as itys what i have painted and secondly its pretty effective against most armies. And to bash every one as conceited because they suggested the army was beatable and gave an example when the thread question is "is this army unbeatable" is pretty silly.

Basically true balanced armies are generally very poor because armies built towards one theme cream them. Competetive balanced armies are generally have a strong point and then a reasonable amount of everything else and these are the strongest armies. This army is actually not too unbalanced except for the 4 wizards its the playing style that makes it very boring to play against. Stand in my deployment zone and use magic! If you swapped some magic for some combat (say one skink for a scar vet) and played attacking magic using magic and skirmishers with salamanders and krox in support you would have a much more fun army to play with and against and it would be a better army for when you play tournments or more experienced warhammer players

corben_da
10-08-2005, 19:59
this list isn't beatable, every list is beatable, and if not with "normal" army then with army that is desingned against specific army. your army is ok, yet i think that you could use saurus champion on your army. yet its really working army on your list.
your friend is poor player or his army is poor if he says that your army is undefeatable!

Naghaz
10-08-2005, 22:17
I guess the question is should he play a more balanced list so friends that play him can compete or should he stick with it? I say go more balanced but it's up to you luke


I suppose its up to the General. Balanced lists will be able to compete, but it won't be a tactical victory, and thats why the Lizardman list he's using isnt that much fun to play against. Denying victory points by hampering movement, skirmishing away, and thwaking down enemies in shooting and magic phases doesnt make for much of a "massive fantasy army battle" and thats the trouble with it.

When I see threads like this I very often feel lucky that in my group storyline and fun are the main things that drive army creation. We play enormous campaigns with lots of fun house rules and charts to roll on. We build upon the wonderful atmosphere Games Workshop has developed for us. But what we dont do, at least amongst friends, is build lists that you would ever have to ask the question "is it beatable?" When we prepare for a tournament we will playtest some tough lists against one another but even those lists have more flair and fluff than the one listed.

I'm not trying to stand on some platform and speak down to you for your playing style and if I come across that way please accept my apology. The Lizard General here has to make the decision to change his list not based on making it "less powerful" so his friends can compete, trust me, eventually your opponents will figure out the achillies heal of the army and then it will be beaten soundly. The process is no fun though, and thats the problem. Remember the old addage, "if you have to ask, you probably already know the answer?" Well I think it comes into play here. If you have to ask if you should change up your list, well...you know the rest.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope you and your friends find some enjoyment in the epic storyline leading up to your conflicts and realise this game is far more than an arms race.

Hannibal Barca
11-08-2005, 00:11
Well, as the slann is really skishy, and he hiddes while the rest of the army stalls for time, I guess an ambushing beasts of chaos army would do well, for their mages wouldn't survive combat with a beast herd. Just my 2 cents.

Lord Anathir
11-08-2005, 01:43
that high elf list mentioned before is just pure nasty....
no one would want to play against that.
nor does it require a lot of skill to play.

Naghaz
11-08-2005, 02:34
This army is actually not too unbalanced except for the 4 wizards its the playing style that makes it very boring to play against. Stand in my deployment zone and use magic! If you swapped some magic for some combat (say one skink for a scar vet) and played attacking magic using magic and skirmishers with salamanders and krox in support you would have a much more fun army to play with and against and it would be a better army for when you play tournments or more experienced warhammer players


I find it interesting that you say this type of gameplay is no fun and yet, its almost exactly the type of army you use. Even more strange is you're explaining how easy his army is to beat while stating that your are very successful with basically the same army, albeit with more magic items.

That paragraph sounds harsh, but the written word cannot convey sarcasm so please know that I'm not trying to be blunt here. I just want to point out the irony of the situation. If you use the high elf list you posted against all commers and do pretty well, its almost a given that the Lizard player who originally posted will as well is it not? Yet, somehow your saying he shouldnt, or something. Now I'm confused. I think this thread hurt my mind.

I think Ill have a glass of wine and hope for the best :)

Trunks
11-08-2005, 03:33
Does your main Dark Elf opponent field multiple regiments of Dark Riders and other harassers?

I find them to be required no matter who I am playing against, but against an army like yours it is especially important. If he is the type to play a mostly shooting focused Dark Elf army, I could understand him losing alot though (It's not a very good "take on everyone" approach either).

Your downfall will be facing exceptionally mobile armies I would think.

Artemis_Quinn
11-08-2005, 06:04
I have to agree with Trunks here, mobile armies spell doom for you... an all wolf rider and fell bat VC with tons of anti-magic or a dark rider, harpy, shade list with enough anti-magic might give you a run for your money (all they have to do is hold out your magic for one turn, then they're in combat and you can't target them with your sneaky missiles, ok, maybe ttwo turns, but taking enough magic they should minimalize magic damage).

Maybe necharchs would do better than most others (just fly a lord on winged nightmare close enough to drop a ton of zombies behind some stuff). and they have the magic and hitting power to do some damage. not to mention the movement spell :p

Dark elves won't get far with shooting, but they have some wonderful spells and units that are fast enough to be a problem real quick.

So I don't see how they can't just change the focus of their armies (which I feel would be competitive against all comers) and nto give you a good fight.

But that's just my two cents.... remeber, every army has a weakness, yours just happens to be mobility.

LordPomposity
12-08-2005, 00:34
My standard Daemonic legion list would probably be able to make pretty quick work of this.

HEROES

Exalted Daemon, General, Mark of Tzeentch, Blade of the Ether (350)

Daemonic Herald, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Hunger (220)

Daemonic Herald, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Hunger (220)

CORE

10 Horrors, Champion (199)

10 Horrors, Champion (199)

3 Screamers (99)

6 Flamers (150)

SPECIAL

4 Changebringers (280)

RARE

Chariot of Tzeentch (140)

Chariot of Tzeentch (140)

10 power dice, 7 dispel dice


The Heralds ride in the chariots, and they and the Exalted Daemon would be able to make aerial charges against your Slann at the beginning of my second turn. This would give you either one or two magic phases, depending on who got the first turn. During that, I wouldn't be able to stop all your spells but could probably take care of the really scary ones (Comet comes to mind) provided they weren't cast with irresistible force. I would outnumber, so I'd need to cause two wounds to win the combat (10 S5 attacks, 12 S4 attacks, 2D6 S4 impact hits), forcing an automatic break from fear and outnumbering.

While my characters are taking care of the Slann, my Screamers and Changebringers would hunt down the skink priests.

After that the rest would be pretty much a turkey shoot. I'd have 10 power dice and 2 bound spells against your 2 dispel dice. This combined with 12D6 S4 shots from my flamers, changebringers, and chariots would dispose of the skinks next. The final order of business would be coordinated charges of my Screamers, Changebringers, Chariots, and Exalted Daemon against your Saurus blocks. This could all be done within the six turns of a standard game, allowing two for mage hunting, two for skink hunting, and one for each saurus block.

That said, your army would be extremely difficult to beat for most armies; the only ones I can see beating it would be mobile armies like mine and khorne chariot-like armies with dispel dice coming out the ying-yang. Every army has some type of enemy that it would take either a miracle or loaded dice to beat, especially thoroughly over the top ones.

gortexgunnerson
12-08-2005, 12:54
I find it interesting that you say this type of gameplay is no fun and yet, its almost exactly the type of army you use. Even more strange is you're explaining how easy his army is to beat while stating that your are very successful with basically the same army, albeit with more magic items.

That paragraph sounds harsh, but the written word cannot convey sarcasm so please know that I'm not trying to be blunt here. I just want to point out the irony of the situation. If you use the high elf list you posted against all commers and do pretty well, its almost a given that the Lizard player who originally posted will as well is it not? Yet, somehow your saying he shouldnt, or something. Now I'm confused. I think this thread hurt my mind.

I think Ill have a glass of wine and hope for the best :)

I was just making the point that the army would be better with either totaling out on magic like the High elves if thats all your going to use. But if your going to use the other units then a few combat units would also probably improve the army. I don't use that HE army much, it just was weilding out in a couple of nights gaming against my friend as we both play dwarfs and have almost identical armies so its really dull if we play each other so I swapped to High Elves for a few games. I was just pointing out that I would take that list against any army and I hadn't just written it to beat the lizard list.

And magic heavy are pretty dull in the long term. They have a short fun bit were you get to blow things up in new interesting ways but them games get a bit repeatative. But as do lots of armies I like to change my armies regularly becuase I get bored of them quickly I mainly play dwarfs (my true love) but in the last 12 months have also played Vampire Counts, Sea Guard, Lizardmen in tournments and am taking empire to a tournment next weekend.

Naghaz
12-08-2005, 14:33
Not to pull far, far off topic but I have to agree with gortexgunnerson regarding magic heavy. It seems like such fun at first, but after a few games its so dull. Meanwhile armies such as Dwarves (great example) seem fun forever to me. I hope 7th edition allows for more fun in magic, but also somehow puts a stop the obligatory scroll caddy.

Ok I'm all done hijacking this thread (sorry).

Brother Edwin
12-08-2005, 16:46
Bret lord on royal pegasus.

BSB on royal pegasus

damsal with 2 scrolls

damsal with 2 scrolls

6 errants

6 errants

6 errants

6 errants

3 peg knights

3 peg knights

3 peg knights

3 peg knights

This list kills your slann turn 2 and than kills the rest of your army with cordinated charges.

Naghaz
12-08-2005, 16:57
Bret lord on royal pegasus.

BSB on royal pegasus

damsal with 2 scrolls

damsal with 2 scrolls

6 errants

6 errants

6 errants

6 errants

3 peg knights

3 peg knights

3 peg knights

3 peg knights

This list kills your slann turn 2 and than kills the rest of your army with cordinated charges.


Edwin NO! Do not succumb to the dark side of the force!! :p

I think this is a good time to halt the posting of super lists! As has been stated time and time again, the lizard list is beatable, obviously. His opponents are having trouble with...stick with me now...NORMAL, BALANCED LISTS facing off against it. Some of his opponents are also new to Fantasy, which doest help.

Making an army simply to beat another army is easy and has been done about a trillion times in this thread. If you say you use the above as your standard take all commers list, well, again this doesnt help his opponents beat him with their own.

In fact, I beg you Panophobia, post what lists your opponents are using so that we can spend some of this wasted energy helping your opponents with tactics to confront your list, as opposed to telling them how to create entirely new lists that are completely over the top.

Nicodemus
12-08-2005, 18:53
Im one of panophobia's regular opponents and im the one who normally plays dark elves my most recent list i played againt him was this.

Highborn(125)Heavy armor,SDC,Enchanted shield,cold one,lance,COBI=230

Noble-coldone, heavy armor,enchanted shield,sdc,lance,talisman of protection=135

sorceress-level2,seal of grhond,dispell scroll=180

Assassin-touch of death, 2hand weapons, dark venom=169

5 Dark riders=90
5 Dark riders=90
cold one chariot-spears=97
5 cold one knights- full comand banner of murder=235
5 cold one knights- full comand=190
10 executioners-full comand=140
10 warriors- x-bows, shields=120
10 warriors- x-bows, shields=120
2 RBT=200
total=1996

he placed his slann with a unit of sauruses in a large forest template, and surrounded it by 2 units of skinks with the skink priests in that mix, one unit of dark riders and cold one knights started to move to that position while the rest of the army worked on taking out the support stuff like salamanders and the teradons, on each magic phase one of the cav units was dropped from spells along with the unit of crossbow guys with the sorc in it, the game ended turn 4 with a massacare.
any help would be appreciated
BTW we are using the prerevision lore of heavans.

Panophobia
20-08-2005, 14:16
First off I don't think this army is unbeatable to some balanced armies some armies have match up issues. It also depends on what spells i get.

The reason i posted this was beacause alot of my friends were saying this list was "broken" "unblanced" etc.. I don't feel that way and have even asked my friends to field my army agianst theres and see what happens but to no avail. I think that with my list and my tactics I play really good, and maybe my friends arn't as good or something. But any victory I get is beacause my army is "lame" or "broken". Do being good at the game mean anything? I just take what I think is cool and use it as good as I can, should I dumb my tactics down or dumb my list down?

I play this army not beacause I think its unbeatable or really good its beacause i like the units and how it plays. So please don't go saying I'm trying to make some uber-unbeatable list or something.

I relize that an army made to fight this army could beat it. Duh. So I guess in that respect its not unbeatable. Maybe I should have rephrased it or something.

So to start over or something:

Do you think using(tactics, your basic most used army list, The realm of men terrian list, saying i'm at least a good player, etc..) you could after some games beat this list without changing your list or using a different army?

P.S. And if your ever in the area I'd love to play a game :D (Manitowoc, Wisconsin)