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fwacho
31-03-2007, 19:46
Well I read through the codex darkangels and figured I post an idea I hadn't seen here yet. first my info.

1. Not all fallen are killed. they either "repent or have their body absolved"
2. no one goes into monastary atop "The rock"
3. Luther's rambling about being fogiven
4. there was an emergency request for The disciples of Cliban to be founded by Anziel.
5. Not all fallen are caught being evil. some simply become good leaders.

Just thinking...
Some of the fallen do repent. A good place to keep them once they do would be the uppper monastary as no one goes there. they are wariors and obviously want to fight. Why not be sent over to the Newly formed Disciples of Caliban as cover. Here, while being watched over by a lnner circle presence they form a new chapter and can occasionally bring in the odd repentant (exchange student) with minimal fuss. thus allowing the angels to regain their honor.

Cypher is probably Lion el Jonson. Imagine the great hero going through space finding those who have been scattered and putting them in the bad places where they can be captured. All the while "miraculously" getting away (read "allowed to escape"). Basically being the hunting dog that flushes out the quail. In the meantime he wears the old tainted armor until the chapter is fully restored.

The story sees to point that way if you ask me.

Feor
31-03-2007, 20:12
Sounds reasonable, except Cypher is not the Lion. Primarchs in their skivvies are the same size as Astares in Full Terminator armour, and can arm wrestle dreadnoughts expecting to win.

No, while Cypher might be an agent of the Dark Angels, he's not Lion El'Johnson.

harlequin21
31-03-2007, 20:19
The only way a Fallen can be absolved is through repentance and then paying for his sins of heresy, which is death.

Luther's ramblings about being "forgiven" are him saying he will be forgiven by Loin'El Jonson not that he has already been forgiven

That said i havn't read much of the new background in the new 'dex

muskrat
31-03-2007, 20:28
In the older dex, 3rd edition, Asmodai speaks to a fallen, telling him that "Repent and die quickly, or I will absolve your sins of you slowly- even if it kills you."

Not a direct quote, but basically saying repent or die slower.

Grindgodgrind
31-03-2007, 20:39
Cypher is not El'Jonson. El'Jonson is sleeping at the centre of the Rock.

fwacho
31-03-2007, 20:39
Yes bu the codex explicitly states... "repent OR be abvolved of their body" there is most definitly a distinction here. ( I know I'm an author myself.. thats how you hide things)

Grindgodgrind
31-03-2007, 20:46
The Fallen are all killed. The only two that have ever been mentioned as surviving are Luther and Chapter Commander Astelan.

corsair_01
31-03-2007, 22:26
the fallen arent all killed! are you mad, you should read the codex!
cypher is a fallen and it mentions their are more
they dont know ehere but they have a list of all their names!

I dont mean to sound harsh and i appologize if i do

Steffan Von Rotstein
31-03-2007, 22:27
The Fallen are all killed. The only two that have ever been mentioned as surviving are Luther and Chapter Commander Astelan.
I'm pretty sure Boreas tortured Astelan to death...

Feor
31-03-2007, 22:48
the fallen arent all killed! are you mad, you should read the codex!
cypher is a fallen and it mentions their are more
they dont know ehere but they have a list of all their names!

I dont mean to sound harsh and i appologize if i do

Yes, well, they've obviously not killed any of the Fallen they haven't caught yet. (like Cypher)

In general any captured fallen are killed, either quick and merciful if they repent, or slowly as they are tortured to death in an attempt to force them to repent. It's possible some are spared, but it wouldn't be common.

A more likely source of "forgiven" marines might be those who recieve the Geneseed of a Fallen who repented.

THE CHIEF
31-03-2007, 23:04
Sorry dude, all fallen that are captured are interrogated by Interrogator Chaplains - the most successful of which is Asmodai - from memory he has only got one fallen to repent! All of them die, the ones that don't repent die in agony at the hands of the Blades of Reason, while those that do repent are granted a swift painless end to their miserable lives. (2nd ed Codex gives info of this).

Feor
31-03-2007, 23:30
I thought he was considered so successful because he'd gotten one to repent so early in his career. Though I could be thinking of something else.

Still, I imagine the Geneseed of the marines would be taken (unless they were obviously tainted by chaos) and that the neophytes given those Zygotes would feel they had something to prove.

MadDoc
01-04-2007, 00:47
Sorry dude, all fallen that are captured are interrogated by Interrogator Chaplains - the most successful of which is Asmodai - from memory he has only got one fallen to repent!

First I'd like to concur with what others have said, all captured Fallen are killed, those who Repent just die more quickly, the new Codex states this using a rather more oblique euphemism. ;) As for the suggestion somebody made about using repented Fallen's geneseed, I have to say I highly doubt it, it'd still be considered tainted even if the Fallen had repented.

Secondly, Asmodai isn't, despite the common misconception, the most successful Interrogator Chaplain that honour falls to Master Molochia who, IIRC only managed in all his years as an Interrogator to force 10 (thanks 'The Emperor' for clarifying) Fallen to Repent. (The name and numbers are now right thanks to 'The Emperor' who posted confirming them, though I still can't find my copy of C:AoD damn thing is still AWOL. :()

MD

CELS
01-04-2007, 01:02
I don't think they'd touch their geneseed with a bargepole, to be fair. The Dark Angels aren't exactly known for their naiveté. All they know is that the Fallen betrayed them, so why would they allow any of them to live? Because they say "Oh, I'm sorry, I guess killing my own and running off for ten millennia was wrong after all"?

I don't buy it. The 2nd Edition offers three alternatives;
A - Slain (presumably in battle)
B - Get captured and repent. Die quickly.
C - Get captured and refuse to repent. Die slowly.

The Codex doesn't explicitly say that all captured Fallen are killed, but it is implied because only the three above possibilities are mentioned, and there are, for once, no shady areas. It doesn't say "most Fallen angels who repent are killed", for example.

Fwacho, as an author, you obviously know the importance of knowing your characters and trying to understand them. Well, the Dark Angels are doing everything in their power to kill the Fallen, because they represent a threat to their Chapter. If anyone outside the Chapter learned their terrible secret, that the Dark Angels actually had traitors in the Horus Heresy, then the rest of the Imperium would be on them like flies on grox-manure. Hell, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels already have some animosity, what would happen if the Space Wolves found out that the Dark Angels were actually prone to betraying their own? And if they learned that Lion El'Jonson was actually brought down by one of his own Marines?
Nope, I don't think so.

lord_blackfang
01-04-2007, 01:06
Oh, I thought this thread would be about the typo on page 45 of the Codex :o

I think it's pretty clear at the end of Angel of Darkness that Astelan is still alive, locked up in the deepest cell in the Rock (not counting Luther's, presumably)

CELS
01-04-2007, 01:14
Sorry, it's been a while since I read Angel of Darkness. Does Astelan actually repent in the end?

Feor
01-04-2007, 02:04
Well, if Astelan is still locked up, that would suggest to me he just falls into catagory C - Die Slowly.

The Wolves and Angels aren't that animositous (is that even a word? the grammer works but...) towards each other. It's more a friendly rivalry, when they fight together they have a ritual brawl between two champions to settle things then get down to buisness.

I still think they'd accept the geneseed of a repentent Fallen back into the chapter. Ones who didn't repent and died slowly would probably have their geneseed destroyed, but if they repented without too much prompting, and their geneseed could pass purity tests, I don't see why they'd not keep using it. Like you say, the Angels are hardly naive, I'm sure they realize as well as we do that some of the Fallen were tricked or coerced into betraying The Lion, and genuinly regret it. Otherwise they wouldn't even bother trying to make them repent, they'd just kill them all outright.

Khaine's Messenger
01-04-2007, 08:56
Sorry, it's been a while since I read Angel of Darkness. Does Astelan actually repent in the end?

Well, no.

Sapphon pipes up as Boreas leaves and tells Astelan that he's going to be locked up near Luther's hidey-hole, attended by the "best Apothecaries," so he can "hear the cries of the Betrayer, and you can come to understand what it is that you have done. (...) As his cries for forgiveness echo in your ears, you will learn to beg for mercy as well." So he's very much not dead.

Boreas' last message to his chapter even implores them to deliver a message to the heart of the Rock: "you were not wrong."

CELS
01-04-2007, 16:57
Ah, good, thanks Khaine's Messenger. Then, obviously, my argument would be that the only reason Astelan is still alive is because he falls into category C - Die slowly (as Feor suggests). He probably has decades of torture and interrogation to look forward to. :)

Regarding the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, I was under the impression that it was more than friendly rivalry, but then again it has been a while since I read that fluff.

SisterMordagg
01-04-2007, 17:23
The rivalry IS more than friendly. They have killed each other on occasion.

However, it is not so over the top that they hunt each other down.

After all, their Primarchs kept trying to kill each other whenever they met.

(ref. 2nd Ed Space Wolves)

junglesnake
01-04-2007, 17:30
Sounds reasonable, except Cypher is not the Lion. Primarchs in their skivvies are the same size as Astares in Full Terminator armour, and can arm wrestle dreadnoughts expecting to win.

No, while Cypher might be an agent of the Dark Angels, he's not Lion El'Johnson.

Actually this is something that is not entirely true. If you look at all of the artwork surrounding the likes of Horus and the Emperor coupled with that of Primarchs you will find that they are not nesisarily bigger than a standard marine.

It does not mention that Jonsosn stands a whole head and shoulders above any other member of the Order on Caliban. Nor does it ever mention that they stand taller than each other - Russ and Jonson.

Just because they are able to complete feats of great ability does not mean that they are bigger than any other marine, infact surely if their genetics are used to create marines they would be the same size?!!!

Inquisitor Maul
01-04-2007, 19:01
After all, their Primarchs kept trying to kill each other whenever they met.

(ref. 2nd Ed Space Wolves)

Errr, not realy. Those two were the closest primarchs. All their fighting was more of the sibblings-fighting-for-attention-thing.

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-04-2007, 19:08
Still, I imagine the Geneseed of the marines would be taken (unless they were obviously tainted by chaos) and that the neophytes given those Zygotes would feel they had something to prove.


Of course not. They have fallen to chaos, there is no way they would implant it within any prospect marine. After all, they are not trying to create more Fallen.

Obviously tainted by chaos, they are taken from chaos marines!


And it should be fairly obvious that Cypher isn't the Lion, as the Lion is physically in the very centre of the rock, making it a little hard to go walk about in the galaxy.

HiveFleetEzekial
01-04-2007, 21:52
Errr, not realy. Those two were the closest primarchs. All their fighting was more of the sibblings-fighting-for-attention-thing.

Correct. All they (and their chapters later on) ever tried to do after the intial fight, was to try and best each other. Fight to see who'd be top dog or top cat till the next meeting.

Yeah, it wasn't 'friendly', but it wasn't lethal or outright war either.

Feor
01-04-2007, 22:30
Of course not. They have fallen to chaos, there is no way they would implant it within any prospect marine. After all, they are not trying to create more Fallen.

Obviously tainted by chaos, they are taken from chaos marines!

All Fallen are NOT Chaos Marines. Many of them did fall to chaos, but at the time of Heresy Luther and his boys, while being used by Chaos, were not fighting for chaos. Many of the Fallen have become mercenaries, rogues, or just hermits.


Actually this is something that is not entirely true. If you look at all of the artwork surrounding the likes of Horus and the Emperor coupled with that of Primarchs you will find that they are not nesisarily bigger than a standard marine.

Except that in the Horus Heresy novels it explicitly states that they stand head and shoulders above other marines in several locations spread across the books of three different authors. (possibly 4, haven't had time to read Eisenstein yet) :p

Commander Ozae
01-04-2007, 22:34
In Codex: Dark Angels it says that most of the Fallen are loyal to Chaos, but that some (albeit a very small minority) have begged for forgiveness but are still hunted by the DA.

And in Eisenstein, it says that Mortarion in robes was just as tall as Typhon (his captain) in Termie armor and Horus was kneeling on the floor and was as tall as a SM in power armor sitting on a stool. They're pretty massive.

fwacho
02-04-2007, 01:43
i was worn gto pick teh disciples of caliban as teh forgiven... reading the codex again it sounds more like teh consecrators.

A common tactic in a story is to have the chorus repeat an untruth. This way teh reader is quick to believe it and it is only later unraveled when samller pieces are revealed. likewsie teh chorus in DA codex says the fallen are hunted down and killed...but..

1. nobody but the inner circle is escapes without a mind wipe (except the raven wing who are conditioned not believe anything they say and thus not a security risk.

2. The inner circel is always around at time of capture.

3. yes they are interrogated.

4. yes they are imprisoned.

5. Yes Eziekiel can tell with a glance if they speak truth.

6. there is greater honor in turning a mind than killing a body.

7. "forgiven" means somethign of the order of "to not count or hold against".

8. imagine the lengths you would go to save your family. and if they doing somethign wrong how much more than to turn them back to right?

Most of the codex is what a mid-level inner circle might know. it's the kind of thing to give you a reason to obey odd orders. Then there are bits of pieces that suggest there might be something else.

I'm willing to accept that cyper might not be Lion 'el jonson. I will however mainting that he is an agent or even a figuredhead of somekind of the darkangels.

absolon
02-04-2007, 02:48
The new codex seems to state pretty clearly that not all fallen are killed. It gives the specific example of one confessing to Asmodi, but refusing to repent and being kept in a cell

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 00:44
The new codex seems to state pretty clearly that not all fallen are killed. It gives the specific example of one confessing to Asmodi, but refusing to repent and being kept in a cell

Care to give a page reference for that? :eyebrows: The thing is I don't recall this being stated either explicitly or implicitly in the new Codex. So I was curious as to your source.

MD

The Emperor
03-04-2007, 09:51
Master Molocia is the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain ever. He made 10 Fallen repent after serving the Chapter for 300 years. Asmodai is just the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain currently alive.

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 10:07
Secondly, Asmodai isn't, despite the common misconception, the most successful Interrogator Chaplain that honour falls to Master Molochia who, IIRC only managed in all his years as an Interrogator to force 8 (might have been 10) Fallen to Repent. (Pretty sure the name is right the numbers could be wrong, can't find my copy of C:AoD damn thing has gone AWOL on me. :()


Master Molocia is the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain ever. He made 10 Fallen repent after serving the Chapter for 300 years. Asmodai is just the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain currently alive.

I mentioned this earlier (see above). Thank you for clarifying the numbers and name though. :)

MD

jma037
03-04-2007, 10:14
I might as well let it slip here. I wonder how far this will get.
This is confirmed by a VERY reliable source. This will be released evetually.
==============
Cypher is the Lion. The Lion inside the rock is just a body. In the battle between Luther and the Lion, the lion was suppose to be killed by an warp attack unleashed by Luther. But that attack was not meant to kill. Instead, the dark powers wanted to control a primarch by replacing Lion with Luther. The attack was suppose to transport Luther mind inside the Lion and the Lion's mind inside Luther. Cypher was a fallen at the scene. But he realised that he had betray his friends and commander when Luther unleashed his attack. So he jumped into the path of the attack. As a result. The marine that was cypher is inside Luther, the Lion is inside the marine that was cypher and Luther is inside the body of the Lion. That's why the lion is kept in stasis. Luther say the lion will return and forgive him. And cypher(the lion) is trying to get his body back.

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 10:59
I might as well let it slip here. I wonder how far this will get.
This is confirmed by a VERY reliable source. This will be released evetually.
==============
*snip unbelievable statement*

Say what? :wtf: If that VERY reliable source is JJ then I'd have yet one more reason to wish him harm. Was he not satisfied with what he subjected Dark Angels players to with the 3rd Edition Codex? If its Gav Thorpe, after the cr*p he caused with people taking Astelan's twisting of events in Angels of Darkness as gospel, I wouldn't call that VERY reliable. If that source is, God forbid, Dexcent of Angels (or the author of said as yet unreleased book), I'll be most disappointed the Horus Heresy novels were sounding quite good uptil that. If none of those... I dread to think who.

I hate the idea of them destroying one of the essential inner mysteries of the background, especially in a way that panders to a fairly recent misconception brought about by newer players not being familiar with certain aspects of the background. :( Its plot hooks like Cypher that make the background so rich and interesting.

I will, for now, call *bull* and put this down to stirring. I only hope I'm right. :angel:

Edit: How is it that if you're so well infromed, the following is your only contribution to a thread about the very thing you're claiming above?


Can I get some things clearified?
In the final battle between the lion and luther. When and How was the sword broken?
If the sword was broken into two pieaces, does cypher has both parts? If not, who has the other part?
When had the sword being used by lion before he was killed? Does it have any special powers?

That your sole contribution is a series of questions and not actually imparting any further information, leads me to believe that my earlier calling *bull* was spot on.

MD

Thommy H
03-04-2007, 11:38
If Cypher is the Lion, that means that the Primarch of the Dark Angels, one of the greatest tacticians that ever lived, a mighty demi-god from the ancient past who led the largest and first Legion of Space Marines across the Galaxy in the Great Crusade and whose very name is legend...has the same stats as a basic Chaos Lord or Dark Angels Company Master. Oh, except he can fire two pistols at once...

No thanks. I'll stick with what the background says and what common sense dictates.

Sureshot05
03-04-2007, 11:51
I think there is no need for the extreme negativity for such a theory. Though the phrase "I have it from a very reliable..." does annoy a little. Its always interesting to discuss theories and thats one of the lures of the fallen and in particular Cypher. I've always found the connection between Cypher and the fallen very intriguing and there is still much that could be done without it destroying the myth. Suggestions that it might be the Lions spirit make him more interesting, not less from my point of view.

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 12:11
I think there is no need for the extreme negativity for such a theory. Though the phrase "I have it from a very reliable..." does annoy a little. Its always interesting to discuss theories and thats one of the lures of the fallen and in particular Cypher. I've always found the connection between Cypher and the fallen very intriguing and there is still much that could be done without it destroying the myth. Suggestions that it might be the Lions spirit make him more interesting, not less from my point of view.

Its not the theory that provokes the extreme negativity its the fact that he's claiming a "VERY reliable source" has told him that one of the key plot hooks in the background is going to be eliminated (and not in a particularly good way) that has provoked the response. The theory I could care less about, but the suggestion that it might be made a canonical fact grates, and for me personally, takes away from the background and lessens it. The mysteries, half-truths and speculation within the background feed the feeling of darkness and futility that help to make the 40k ethos what it is. Removing any of that is IMHO a VERY bad thing.

MD

jma037
03-04-2007, 12:47
That your sole contribution is a series of questions and not actually imparting any further information, leads me to believe that my earlier calling *bull* was spot on.[/B]

MD

LOL. I was just trying to find out what the current fluff about the Lion sword is. I guess since I told you guys this much I might as well go on. The sword was in fact broken in half. It was used by the Lion to defend himself against the warp attack before the "fallen marine now known as cypher" jumped in. Cypher as we now know him only have half of the sword. That's why he's searching the galaxy looking for the other half. The reason cypher used twin pistols and don't have the Lion's abilities...I really don't want to spoil it...but think the movie fight club. Anywho, the NEW mystery surrounding cypher is going to be who has the other half of the sword and why are they hiding it.

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 13:06
LOL. I was just trying to find out what the current fluff about the Lion sword is. I guess since I told you guys this much I might as well go on. The sword was in fact broken in half. It was used by the Lion to defend himself against the warp attack before the "fallen marine now known as cypher" jumped in. Cypher as we now know him only have half of the sword. That's why he's searching the galaxy looking for the other half. The reason cypher used twin pistols and don't have the Lion's abilities...I really don't want to spoil it...but think the movie fight club. Anywho, the NEW mystery surrounding cypher is going to be who has the other half of the sword and why are they hiding it.

Dear God, they can't leave well enough alone can they? If all this is true, then the cretin behind it needs a swift kick. :mad:

I know... why don't they just completely remove all mystery from the background, tell us everything so that we don't have to worry about anything so taxing as actually having to be creative in how we interpret the background. Also nice to see they're sticking with their *supposed* idea of reinforcing the feeling of Secrecy of the Dark Angels through being more oblique about the facts, by removing yet another piece of mystery from their background and setting it in rockrete. Imbecilic.

The bit after the italics was sarcasm, just in case anybody missed it, although it doesn't alter the truth of things. :p

MD

jma037
03-04-2007, 13:19
:D Wait till you find out who the Watcher in the Dark actually is. :D
I guess they don't want to be too much of a "male-chicken" tease. Also, the plot does thicken quite a bit from there. Major fluff shake up is coming for Dark Angels. I'll tell you a little bit more. When all these information is release every Dark Angel player that brought the new Codex is going to pick it up and re-read it. And then go...Oh My God! It's right under our noses and we didn't see it. I think it's quite clever actually. (I guess they watched the Da Vinci Code once too many times)

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 13:46
:D Wait till you find out who the Watcher in the Dark actually is. :D

Well in light of the fact that they're plural not singular I would have cause to wonder. :eyebrows: This comment just makes me think all the more that you know nothing and are simply stirring.


I guess they don't want to be too much of a "male-chicken" tease. Also, the plot does thicken quite a bit from there. Major fluff shake up is coming for Dark Angels. I'll tell you a little bit more. When all these information is release every Dark Angel player that brought the new Codex is going to pick it up and re-read it. And then go...Oh My God! It's right under our noses and we didn't see it. I think it's quite clever actually. (I guess they watched the Da Vinci Code once too many times)

By that I would take it JJ had some involvement in what you're suggesting is coming. Pretty much guaranteeing that if I ever meet him he'll be receiving a punch in the face to commemorate the meeting. This sounds either like the biggest ****-take I've seen in quite sometime or that the GD really do want to completely screw the background for the Dark Angels. *If* this is true and *if* JJ is behind it, he can go **** himself, as if the insult he foisted on us that was the 3rd Ed. Dark Angels Codex wasn't bad enough, this would be infinitely worse not a sub-par army list but instead destroying the Dark Angels background and what attracted alot of us to the army, and likely brought many of those same people into the hobby. Not that this would be the first time GW had done that.

I dearly hope your full of **** on this, otherwise it will ruin the background for me. What the hell would they be thinking? :wtf:

MD

CELS
03-04-2007, 13:50
Easy tiger. Don't shoot the messenger (except if the messenger is lying) :D

Anyway, I don't understand how you can be so shocked at GW messing up the background for the Dark Angels. They already did it to the Horus Heresy, IMHO.

MadDoc
03-04-2007, 14:07
Easy tiger. Don't shoot the messenger (except if the messenger is lying) :D

Care to explain how exactly I was shooting the messenger? The only vitriol in my remarks was directed at those likely responsible for this abortion of an idea should it prove to be true.

I called *bull* on the poster because it smells like I heaping load of Grox dung. Not to mention it seems just the sort of tosh someone would post to stir people up.


Anyway, I don't understand how you can be so shocked at GW messing up the background for the Dark Angels. They already did it to the Horus Heresy, IMHO.

Who said I was shocked? If its true I'll be bitterly disappointed and it may well be enough to drive me out of the hobby, but it wouldn't surprise me. Especially not if it came from the poison pen of JJ. He's proved his ability to give the DA the short end of the stick in the past on numerous occasions. As you can probably tell I have yet to forgive him for Codex: DA 3rd Ed. and likely never will due in no small part to the simple fact that even after it was proved he'd screwed the pooch on it he still refused to admit it, if you screw up you man-up and admit it you don't sweep it under the rug. Bad show.

MD

CELS
03-04-2007, 14:32
Erm, my comment was not to be taken literally. I was merely referring to the fact that you were getting a bit worked up. As relevant as it may be, a discussion about JJ's possible flaws and errors sounds like something for a different thread, or even a different forum. And I do apologise for my own off-topic post. :)

<disappears>

Thommy H
03-04-2007, 15:21
So...uh...they're going to "reveal this soon", huh? Then how come the recently released Dark Angels Codex has no hints of this whatsoever? Pretty bad planning on GW's part if they have a 'big reveal' planned and the very book in which you would actually expect to see it doesn't even have the barest hint of this alleged 'truth' when it's going to be made canon in the forseeable future.

40K is a setting, not a story, and they're done with advanacing the backstory now - the Eye of Terror campaign showed just how difficult it was to deal a huge hammer blow to the fluff - hence why the end result was more-or-less "business as usual". Same with Armaggedon.

Why go against this new trend by cutting out loose ends and wrapping up a plot thread like this?

This is quite apart from the fact that it makes no sense for a whole bunch of reasons and can't possibly have been planned all along since, even if you take the stance that "2nd Edition fluff doesn't count", Cypher was introduced in 2nd Edition too so the Lion was apparently in two places at once if this was the original intention (and the 'mind swap' thing is a way around that I suppose - but it's a pretty bad one).

ryng_sting
03-04-2007, 16:44
I'm pretty sure Boreas tortured Astelan to death...

Except that he didn't.

Astelan, and another Fallen named in the new codex, were brought before the Interrogators, but never repented. Instead of being slain, each was left to languish in a cell indefinitely. Astelan's cell is within earshot of Luther's cell; he was put there on the orders of Grand Master Sapphon himself.

So not all Fallen are slain.

Grindgodgrind
03-04-2007, 18:53
I really, really hope that all this supposed 'fluff revolution' for the DA's is chodder. It sounds horrible, I'd rather they retain the msytery they have at the moment.

The Emperor
03-04-2007, 19:12
Relax, MadDoc. jma037 is obviously full of it.

jfrazell
03-04-2007, 19:36
Dear God, they can't leave well enough alone can they? If all this is true, then the cretin behind it needs a swift kick. :mad:

I know... why don't they just completely remove all mystery from the background, tell us everything so that we don't have to worry about anything so taxing as actually having to be creative in how we interpret the background. Also nice to see they're sticking with their *supposed* idea of reinforcing the feeling of Secrecy of the Dark Angels through being more oblique about the facts, by removing yet another piece of mystery from their background and setting it in rockrete. Imbecilic.

The bit after the italics was sarcasm, just in case anybody missed it, although it doesn't alter the truth of things. :p

MD

Wait it gets better. I have it from a VEY RELIABLE SOURCE that Cypher/Lion El'Johnson is also... the Fifth Ctan! :D

absolon
03-04-2007, 22:58
Care to give a page reference for that? :eyebrows: The thing is I don't recall this being stated either explicitly or implicitly in the new Codex. So I was curious as to your source.

MD

Page 19
" Zeriah refused to admit his sin joining Luther in the rebellion against the chapter, and languishes alone in a cell to this day."

Considering he was captured 299.M38 he has been there for a good bit of time

CELS
03-04-2007, 23:16
I guess the torture they've been using so far has been the poking of soft pillows and the comfy chair (http://youtube.com/watch?v=F56ZZzz4meU) :D

Tigerguy
03-04-2007, 23:47
I really hope they don't take it as far as jma037 has suggested, but I would like a little more to the fluff than what we have now. I know a lot of people didn't like the book, but Angels of Darkness brought a new level to the story that wasn't there before, without substantially changing the whole background. That's the direction I would hope any new fluff would go.

Feor
04-04-2007, 01:01
I guess the torture they've been using so far has been the poking of soft pillows and the comfy chair

Guaranteed, none of us would be expecting it. :p

MadDoc
04-04-2007, 06:09
Relax, MadDoc. jma037 is obviously full of it.

Yeah, I know. Just alittle punchy as of late, health issues (which I don't intend to elaborate on here), not an excuse just an explanation.


Wait it gets better. I have it from a VEY RELIABLE SOURCE that Cypher/Lion El'Johnson is also... the Fifth Ctan! :D

Don't you start... :p


Page 19
" Zeriah refused to admit his sin joining Luther in the rebellion against the chapter, and languishes alone in a cell to this day."

Considering he was captured 299.M38 he has been there for a good bit of time

Ah, cheers, just goes to show my concentration is even more shot than I'd realised. :( Ah well... :angel:

MD

fwacho
04-04-2007, 06:22
Well think about it... By revealing one great mystery they will not be tying up the loose ends.. quite contrary. "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know."

Thus, as the eldar might say, "Learning a terrible answer will only lead to two even more horrific questions." That's a great way to advance a plot. Simply pull back the screen to reveal 2 locked boxes. I'll have to get the novel.

MadDoc
04-04-2007, 06:48
Well think about it... By revealing one great mystery they will not be tying up the loose ends.. quite contrary. "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know."

Thus, as the eldar might say, "Learning a terrible answer will only lead to two even more horrific questions." That's a great way to advance a plot. Simply pull back the screen to reveal 2 locked boxes. I'll have to get the novel.

It doesn't alter the fact that it'd be a stupid idea, a sloppy way of doing it and (for me at least, and a few others it would seem) would ruin the feel of the background. That simple really.

It's almost as silly as suggesting any Loyal Marine Chapter would use Geneseed from known traitors, :p especially a chapter as rigid as the Dark Angels. :evilgrin: It simply wouldn't happen.

MD

fwacho
04-04-2007, 08:47
you won't really know until you see how it's done. Niether will I. Yes, it is quite possible that the way it's shown will totally suck. It's also possible that the writer can pull it off. Keep in mind it only resolves one part of the mystery. there is still plenty of mystery left.
My borther made a game called "The Way" some time ago (5 year porject completed while expereincing unaccaountable long-term illness) To make teh game he filled note books full of information that never made it onto the screen, but still affected how chacters interacted. the game is powered by a storyline with a bomb at the end that makes players go "I shoulda seen that coming". there's a catch... that' only the first mystery and not the most intriguing one by far, although it is the original question. Much more intriguing questions arise as clues to the first mystery are discovered. By the end of the game that first mystery is almost a side note compared to nearly 5 other mysteries. esentially you are allowed to easily discover the "What". "When", "Where" are the next eisiest to piece together. "How" and even more so, "WHY" have always been more intruiging than the first three. adn they are waht keeps a discssion board alive and well. My brother left clues throughout the game that fit together like a blacksmith puzzel (you have to make them all fit once, as one at time won't allow you to wrap your mind around it)

Thus. We are about to be revealed "What". We have a pretty good idea of "When" and sort of "Where"... I have a feeling "How" and "Why" might keep us awake at night and hieghten the mystery of the Dark Angels even more.

MadDoc
04-04-2007, 11:48
Thus. We are about to be revealed "What". We have a pretty good idea of "When" and sort of "Where"... I have a feeling "How" and "Why" might keep us awake at night and hieghten the mystery of the Dark Angels even more.

Except revealing anything would be completely counter the direction the GDs stated they went in with the Dark Angels. They're *supposed* to be making things less "stated out right" and more "inferred obliquely", they stated that quite plainly in WD on the Codex release. Ad to that fact that what the poster had suggested would irrevocably alter the background (and in my opinon ruin it). If, God forbid, this does prove to be true then GW will have managed to do themselves out of several thousand dollars worth of future sales (and yes I do spend that much). :p

If they're foolish enough to do this, they'll be undoing all the work they put into making the new Dark Angels Codex convey the feel of Secrecy they're trying to emphasise for the Dark Angels. If this happens to be a part of the up and coming "Descent of Angels" novel for the Horus Heresy novel series then Scanlon will be added to my list of authors who's books I won't ever be reading or buying. :mad:

You're arguing this will make the background richer without actually realising that it will in fact destroy the feel of the Dark Angels background GW claim to be trying to foster, that of Secrecy, half-truths and mysteries.

Even in my current, impaired, state, its quite clear that this is the case. :eyebrows:

MD

Feor
04-04-2007, 12:27
Well, by your logic, the very existence of the Descent of Angels novel will ruin the Dark Angels as it will, one way or the other, lay out exactly what happened on Caliban at the end of the Horus Heresy. Whether the above stated (and, admitedly, somewhat corny sounding) plotline is true or not. There will be no more secrecy or half-truths. The author will be saying "this is what happened to the Dark Angels."

Frankly, if all of the Dark Angel's mysteries come out of the novel unrevealed, it'll be a collosal waste of paper.

MadDoc
04-04-2007, 13:19
Well, by your logic, the very existence of the Descent of Angels novel will ruin the Dark Angels as it will, one way or the other, lay out exactly what happened on Caliban at the end of the Horus Heresy.

Firstly to clarify one point, we as yet still don't know specifically that it will address those specific events, all we know so far is that it covers the descent into heresy of the Fallen (which may or may not include the final conflict with the Loyalists ending with the destruction of Caliban it may well end just as that conflict begins (which wouldn't be a bad way of handling things, it would in fact be a smarter way, as it means the novel is filling in the blank of how exactly the Fallen fell and leaves the established broad strokes of the loss of Caliban alone, and avoids spoiling any mysteries)).

Anyway, now back to the point...

Are you being intentionally obtuse or was I just not clear enough for you? :eyebrows:

If the *supposed* "revelations" are coming out of the design studio, then the GDs are going against what they've said is the direction they've tried to take the Dark Angels in. Following so far? :evilgrin: Good.

Second issue, if the suggested revelations are coming in "Descent of Angels" then it'll put me off Scanlon and his books. Its also a pretty weak proposition. Still with me? :cool:

Now heres the tricky part (not really, but apparently it managed to escape notice before) Scanlon isn't a member of the Design Studio and he certainly isn't a GD, so if he chooses to put pap like has been suggested into a novel thats not a GD going against their clearly stated intentions for the Dark Angels. Where as if the GDs put it in WD or another Codex it goes directly against what they clearly stated as their intentions. Clear now? God I hope so. :rolleyes:


Whether the above stated (and, admitedly, somewhat corny sounding) plotline is true or not. There will be no more secrecy or half-truths.

Fwacho earlier argued (Sorry for the mix-up Feor) that if the writer handles the suggested revelations well then it can add even more mystery to the background, and yet he conveniently forgets that Descent of Angels does not by that definition have to be the entirety of events without the possibilty of the writer using skillful handling to maintain the integrity of the deepest and juiciest plot hooks while still managing to cover the broader events.

So which is it? Try to be at least alittle consistant.

Personally, if Scanlon lays out all the facts, leaving no mysteries, then I will indeed consider he's ruined things. It would be a shoddy handling of something with massive amounts of potential.


The author will be saying "this is what happened to the Dark Angels."

Actually all we know for sure at the moment is that the book covers the fall of the Fallen, its left up in the air as to whether the Loyalists make anything other than a fleeting appearance, and even then what we know is mainly supposition based on a vague description.

MD

Feor
04-04-2007, 13:42
I really gotta get me an avatar.

Different poster Doc, though, you've clarified your position for fwacho.

I figure the book will have to cover at least part of the battle of Caliban. 40K is one giant action movie, and your average reader probably won't be terribly happy unless there's some serious conflict.

And even if they don't cover the actual battle, several mysteries will be solved outright: Who is Cypher? (barring body snatching) Did all the fallen actually turn to chaos? things like that.

MadDoc
04-04-2007, 13:53
And even if they don't cover the actual battle, several mysteries will be solved outright: Who is Cypher? (barring body snatching)

Not necessarily, they could quite simply have a number of potential candidates peppered throughout the book and never reveal who the "masked shopper" actually is. As for the mind swap *bull*... *shudder*


Did all the fallen actually turn to chaos? things like that.

Actually thats not really a mystery, the Codex states that not all of the Fallen became Chaos Marines, some realised the error of their ways but realising the impossibility of rejoining their Legion slunk off somewhere to live out their remaining days doing what good they can. Others became Renegades, some full-fledged Chaos Marines some even Cult Marines.

MD

Thommy H
04-04-2007, 15:11
This is a slight tangent, but I think it's related enough to warrant its inclusion in this discussion.

I'm a 40K player - I have been, on and off, for about a decade now. I've played Dark Angels for most of that time. I used to hate painting and love gaming, now it's almost the other way 'round, but the one thing that's been consistent in that 10 years (even when I wasn't even buying new models, painting old ones or gaming at all for a couple of years when I discovered alcohol and girls) is my enjoyment of the background. I'm a big fan of 40K's setting, and especially of the Dark Angels fluff, as they're my chosen army in pretty much every system I play (which is probably why I never liked WHFB that much...)

However, as much as I like the background, I've never ever been tempted to pick up a Black Library novel. I read a lot of fantasy and sci-fi, but there's just better stuff out there, to be honest and, outside of that guilty pleasure, I'm an english literature student - it would really be massively out of character for me to pick up a book that's a novelisation of a computer game or even of a tabletop game.

Snobbish and contradictory, maybe, but novels based on GW's intellectual property are just not for me.

How does this relate to this discussion? Well it's simple: they can put whatever they like in a novel, but I (along with quite a large percentage of GW players and collectors) are probably never going to see it or care about it. If it ain't in a Codex, it ain't canon as far as I'm concerned. I think the games designers are probably aware of this trend too - that's what C:Tyranids, which glossed over so much detail about Behemoth and Kraken (we didn't even get a mention of Captain Invictus's name!) had every single minor plot point from Graham McNeil's BL Ultramarine series in relation to Leviathan (and least as far as I know).

So, if they wanted to do a big revealtion about the Dark Angels, why put it in some BL novel that 50% of gamers (at least) will never pick up? Why publish it after the brand spanking new DA Codex that was so at pains to pick up on details of the Dark Angels history (we even got a mention of Two Heads Talking and Piscina IV - neither of which got more than a cursory glance in 3rd Edition). It seems contradictory and pointless.

Of course, if they do go spilling the beans on this then I'll ignore it like I've ignored everything else the BL has put out.

CELS
04-04-2007, 15:24
Ignoring novels is all fine and dandy, and it's something I'm happy to do on more than one occassion. I've heard enough of C.S. Goto's novels to stay away from those, for example, and ignore any information in them. Another example is the 'Iron Hands' novel which gave me a nosebleed after a few pages of reading.

However... in GW's eyes, and I do believe their designers have stated this explicitly, anything with the Warhammer 40,000 logo on it, whether it's a computer game, a novel or a card game... is canon. So as much as we're all allowed our personal heretical interpretations of the fluff, and as interesting as it can be to discuss such personal interpretations (and build on them to create something new, even), as far as GW is concerned, all their publications are 'canon', even when they contradict themselves.

Amusing, really, how much Games Workshop and its employees and customers resembles the Imperium and its adepts and citizens...

fwacho
05-04-2007, 05:40
I guess everyont is entitled to their own opinion. I see that I have no chance of swaying your mind Mad Doc. If you don't read the novel then your mind will be clear and absent of the potential fluff. Which should mean you can keep enjoying your game your way. It is a free country isn't it. (I haven't read a BL novel yet so the new info probably won't affect me one way or the other. ) After all, you can enjoy a sports game till you know thre final score. with thsi as their view though i strongly suggest checking out crestfallenstudios.us I think it would be right down your alley.

THE CHIEF
05-04-2007, 10:15
I have to agree with Thommy H on this one. Black Library novels are not there to write the 40k background, they are there to expand upon it. I'm 99% certain they won't fundamentally alter the DA background in a novel, just perhaps highlight a few areas and/or hint at things.

MadDoc
05-04-2007, 10:56
I guess everyont is entitled to their own opinion. I see that I have no chance of swaying your mind Mad Doc.

You say that like I'm somehow wrong, to suggest I need to be 'swayed' in the first place. I've provided more than adequate evidence to support why I hold my opinion. Of course you're right about one thing, we are all entiltled to have our own opinion.


If you don't read the novel then your mind will be clear and absent of the potential Fluff.

More like clear of the raping of the fluff...


Which should mean you can keep enjoying your game your way.

Or more correctly, enjoy the background as it was written and intended. :angel:


It is a free country isn't it.

Providing you actually live in the same Country that might be right, but not all of us are Americans. I know I certainly aren't. :p


(I haven't read a BL novel yet so the new info probably won't affect me one way or the other. )

Well, in light of the fact that the established Dark Angels fluff is almost exclusively not a part of BL catalogue (bar Angels of Darkness which I won't even begin to tear to shreds) I fail to see how that is relevant.


After all, you can enjoy a sports game till you know thre final score. with thsi as their view though i strongly suggest checking out crestfallenstudios.us I think it would be right down your alley.


Might I strongly suggest you don't, even obliquely, suggest I go try another system instead again (even a computer game). Also your assumption was incorrect, I checked the website, no thanks.

MD

The Emperor
05-04-2007, 11:57
It doesn't alter the fact that it'd be a stupid idea, a sloppy way of doing it and (for me at least, and a few others it would seem) would ruin the feel of the background. That simple really.

Exactly. This is Warhammer 40k, not Star Trek. GW isn't above ripping off ideas, but they're certainly smart enough to know not to touch that particular dog of an idea. What's next? A teleporter accident turns the Deathwing into children, and it's up to them to free the Rock after it's taken over by Orks? The Necrons capture Marneus Calgar and turn him into a Pariah, and the Ultramarines have to get him back? Body switching is just about one of the dumbest things I've seen posted here.

fwacho
07-04-2007, 09:55
just wait The Emporer, you'll see worse. There's always something worse. that why movies like "Warriors of Virtue" make it to big screen. seriously if you are ever trapped in a time-depervation room with nothing but this movie for a week, I still wouldn't recommend watching it.

Maddoc.. actually I'm of the persuasion you might be right. I was simply tryign to sway you to my perspective (which could be wrong as you believe it to be) There technically isn't a right or wrong in this discsuion as we are both subject to the whims of someone else when it all boils down. And besides.. if the novel is bad I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you and shoot down the idea as a bad one.

As far as trying .. I was suggesting you would like the story itself. dark, mysterious, and hard to figure, nothing given away easily... just like you like your darkangels. (thanks for checking)

Lisiecki
07-04-2007, 20:46
"repent OR be absolved of their body"

Read Angels of Darkness

Repenting gets you a bolt to the forehead.
Being "absolved" involves a monifiliment sword, a Librarian, and several months of torture.

2_heads_talking
08-04-2007, 01:09
All I can think is wait for the Horus Heresy novel (for those of you who read Black Library books... *shudder*) based on the Dark Angels and wait to see what they do to them. Since beginning this "saga" they have changed many of the great elements that hooked me, taken away a great many of the mysteries and have brought upona general feeling of loathing by myself towards the company.

(A bit strong, maybe, but I got into this hobby for the background, damnit, and it pains me when they tear it apart for £7.99...)

No doubt, when people describe the events in the book, I'll sit with my had in my hands. Or, perhaps, by then, I won't even care.