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Green Feevah!
03-04-2007, 08:32
I am currently debating with a friend of mine over which is the best way to kit out a unit of Night Gobbos. I currently have them equipped with spears, but I was thinking that if I dropped the spears on my 2 Night Goblin units I'd have enough for another unit of Goblin Wolf Riders. My thinking is this:

- I have yet to be charged successfully with the Goblins, so I have never used the second rank to fight
- I don't really rely on Fanatics, so even if the unit does flee and doesn't manage to rally (which so far they always have since I keep my 2 units on either side of my main block of Boyz with my Warboss in it) it's not a big loss
- Their greatest use so far has been to terrify my opponent with the prospect of Fanatics and to bait charges so my Boyz can do what they do best.

Now I'm by no means an expert in Fantasy, and only have a couple dozen games under my belt, but I would like to get more information on whether saving those points and getting another unit is worth the effort of doing all those conversions (I'm using 6th ed Gobbos, I don't care for the 7th ed ones; therefore I have to make my own HW).

What do you think?

Head_Not_Found
03-04-2007, 12:32
Gobbos are all about quantity. As you already pointed making them cheap buys you another unit! Also, spears mean that you opt to have more attacks, therefore more wounds on the CR when you get charged. The thing is that you can never rely on gobbos to change the combat result by their fighting prowess! You just go for the automatic +5 (banner, ranks, outnumber), and think about downgrading the chargers' efficience. The nets are a must in this direction, and the bonus AS for HW+Shield ain't bad at all. So hand weapons is my choice!

The Blue Knight
03-04-2007, 13:25
Yes, Head-not-Found is correct NG's are all about quantity. I have recently played several games (incluing a fair portion of wins) with an all NG force and CR is the only thing you have going for you and nets help alot towards lessening the # of wound you take. That is the key. And the 5+ Sv is an further help.

Most of my NG's are from the BFSP set and come with spears by default. But they hardly every wound anything with WS 2 and S3. And most of the time even the 2nd rank is killed off when they are charged. So the spears do very little for their points.

I would highly recommend that you go with the Hand Weapon Shield and Netters for your NG groups.

Green Feevah!
04-04-2007, 05:38
That is what I was thinking, so you are really helping with the decision. However, Head-Not-Found has a fantastic point... I had almost forgotten about the netters! Luckily, I have a bunch of old netter models... looks like I'm off to paint!

Thanks guys!

TKitch
04-04-2007, 18:05
First thing: If you've only got 2 ranks of Night Gobbos, you're doing it wrong.

Goblins should never be less than 4 ranks deep, unless they're archers only.

You *need* the guaranteed outnumber and additional rank bonus. Starting with a 5+ Combat res is a REALLY good thing:

+3 Ranks, +1 Banner, +1 Outnumber

You have the choice of the extra attacks or armor. Gobbos have sucky armor, even at 5+. But at least then some will survive some S3 attacks.

Green Feevah!
04-04-2007, 18:41
LOL, no, two UNITS of night goblins! Currently 5 X 5... I've never seemed to need more than that, but I have a very Orc heavy army (5 25-strong blocks of boys). The reason I want to move to HW/shield is to get some more mobility in my army with the Wolf Riders. But the nets are a really good idea I hadn't thought of, and I have the points for it... *goes off to decide*

Art
04-04-2007, 19:16
spears are a neat idea for small units of savage orcs but a complete waste of points on goblins as as short bows.

memitchell747
05-04-2007, 05:42
HW&S is the way to go. You give up those mighty WS2 S3 second rank attacks, but you save enough points for Netters or a Fanatic.

For the BFSP guy, I painted mine up as they came in the box, but changed my mind on the spears after a few games. I decided to convert them into HW's. It was actually quite easy. Except for the model that comes with the spear shaft attached to the body, the rest were converted using some clippers and glue. I cut the shafts off of the spears, leaving enough to look like handle. I cut the pointy end of the spear off the hands, and then clipped the spear head rather severly, and reglued that back to the hand. It looks like they are using pointy sticks with a rusty blade on the end, which suits them just fine.

I really like the little buggers, but they just don't win combat much, with or without spears. And, the Flee Factor is ridiculous.

Green Feevah!
05-04-2007, 06:09
HW&S is the way to go. You give up those mighty WS2 S3 second rank attacks, but you save enough points for Netters or a Fanatic.

For the BFSP guy, I painted mine up as they came in the box, but changed my mind on the spears after a few games. I decided to convert them into HW's. It was actually quite easy. Except for the model that comes with the spear shaft attached to the body, the rest were converted using some clippers and glue. I cut the shafts off of the spears, leaving enough to look like handle. I cut the pointy end of the spear off the hands, and then clipped the spear head rather severly, and reglued that back to the hand. It looks like they are using pointy sticks with a rusty blade on the end, which suits them just fine.

I really like the little buggers, but they just don't win combat much, with or without spears. And, the Flee Factor is ridiculous.

I don't suppose you have pictures of that do you? My friend wants to do a night goblin army (hence the whole reason for this thread) and I think with some pictures to show him of how to convert those little guys I could finally lay to rest the whole HW/shield debate. As for me though, I'm sold, but I'm pretty sure the points I saved on the HW/Shield will go towards some nets!

EDIT: He also wants to know if any of you have converted the night gobbos from bfsp to have nets. I think he's sold!!

Rikkjourd
05-04-2007, 08:35
I seem to be one of the few who actually like my spears. I think the few kills they manage to inflict make it worth the points. However, I play gobbos only so I don't get the big boyz to do the killing =)

Normally I use 4x30 night gobbo spearmen with netz and 1-3 fanatics each. Kinda expensive, but I still don't have any trouble filling all my special, rare and character slots plus fast cav and archers blocks with fanatics.

Green Feevah!
05-04-2007, 18:43
I have 2 x 25 with 2 fanatics in my orc army right now. My friend is planning on doing 4 X 30 blocks with nets and HW/Shield and 2 fanatics in each, with 2 units of 20 archer with 1 fanatic each. But looking at the list he told me he was going to try, I almost have him matched model for model... and I would rather have an Orc than a gobbo any day of the week. This makes me wonder, are night gobbo armies even effective anymore?

The Blue Knight
05-04-2007, 19:55
This makes me wonder, are night gobbo armies even effective anymore?

For the points probably not...however they are a lot of fun, and when you do get a 'win' it is all the sweeter knowing that you pulled it off with despite the handicap of a NG Army.

In my games with them thus far I am 4-6-0. Strangely enough two (2) of those victories are against Brettonians.... Maybe that is because I am really a Brett player who has decided to pull a complete 180, going from elite cavalry to crap.

However, I really enjoy playing them, they allow me to concentrate on always playing the game and not always playing to win. In a sense they are liberating little losers.

The Blue Knight

Rikkjourd
05-04-2007, 20:20
I think you can go fairly competetive with gobboz only. Once I went to a tournament and did quite well with gobbos only. I like to take a little bit of everything and mix it and then get "da plan" worked out in more detail when I get to the field.

dominic_carrillo
05-04-2007, 20:31
HW and shield. the spear goblin is a four point model or something atrocious like that.

Avian
05-04-2007, 22:31
What do you think?
I have a somewhat lengthy article on the Uses for Goblin Infantry (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/goblin_infantry.php) on my website. In short: spears are not a very effective option, mostly because they tend to be used very seldom and cost so much relative to the cost of the unit.



I don't suppose you have pictures of that do you? My friend wants to do a night goblin army (hence the whole reason for this thread) and I think with some pictures to show him of how to convert those little guys I could finally lay to rest the whole HW/shield debate.
From my Orcs & Goblins Core units gallery (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/pictures/orcs_core.php?id=twoboneboys&choice=1):

http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/pictures/orcs_core/pic_twoboneboys_02.JPG
It is relatively easy to convert them, you just need some spare hand weapons.

Green Feevah!
06-04-2007, 07:05
Avian, where did you get those hand weapons? All I have are Orc choppas which are WAY too big, and my friend just has two bfsp sets, so he really doesn't have any bitz.

And has anyone converted bfsp gobbos to have nets? My friend doesn't want to buy to gobbo boxed set 'for 3 stupid arms' as he put it.

Avian
06-04-2007, 08:14
The hand weapons are from a variety of sources, though the Empire Militia set is one of the best sources as it contains a heap of different ones and most Empire players should have some spare ones you can beg off them. Mine are also from the old Empire state troops set, the Bretonnian men-at-arms command sprue and the zombie sprue. The latter is not very good as zombie hands are seriously oversized.

Wintersdark
11-04-2007, 06:41
Wow, Avian, long time no see!

Back in my goblin days, I went with both hw/shield and spear gobbos, but to be honest it depended entirely on who I was fighting as to which was better. In the grand scheme of things, you're really best off without the spears, simply as the point ratio for spears vs base model cost is so out of whack.

My favourite unit was always 35 Night Goblins, with musician, standard, a single fanatic, and the whole front rank chock full 'o netters. Now, I used spears, though I admit they'd have been a better buy without... but I digress.

The idea is thus:

As ones opponent must endeavor to bring as many models into combat as possible, a standard 5-wide unit will contact all 7 front rank gobbos. Less the musician and standard bearer, that's 5 nets to prevent initial attacks against you. Attacks back? 14, less casualties. They may be just WS2 S3 attacks, but don't sell them short, that's a lot of dice. Still, you're not counting on winning the combat due to wounds caused, you want to start out winning the combat before you roll any dice. Those 14 attacks are pure gravy, to pad things further in your direction. Again, though, hw/sh is honestly more worthwhile; I just loved the times when my gobbos netted away the bulk of my opponents offense, then I got a bit lucky with the oodles of stabbing and win combat by a massive margin. Warm glowy feelings for all!

Anyways, two points regardless of weapons:

35? You want 7 wide to get 6 netters up front. You want 5 ranks to be able to still sport a full rank bonus even in the face of concerted firepower. Against ranked units, it's usually worth directing just enough shooting to break a rank bonus. For those goblin regiments, it's not worth killing the 10+ goblins required to remove just one rank bonus... end even if your opponent bothers to direct that much firepower into them, you can always reform into a 5-wide unit and maintain full rank bonus even suffering up to 15 casualties - but you're coming out ahead either way, as the whole unit is dirt cheap anyways.

The standard bearer is often a contentious point - he'll give up a lot of VP's if captured, after all. However, you're goal here is to go into fights winning from the start. If you don't have a standard, you're going to be starting out on even ground vs. a unit with a standard - and that's not the goblin way. Always go into a fight winning before dice are rolled. If you're up against a unit you KNOW will smash through your gobbos, though... just flee. Don't let him have your standard :)

Why one fanatic? Cost. Fanatics are expensive, and unreliable. The real value of Fanatics has nothing to do with the damage the may or may not do; the value of fanatics is the psychological impact they have. The fact that they mess up high-cost/low numbers units is just gravy. They're REALLY nice at dissuading fast cav from getting too cosy with your flanks. In a perfect world, your opponent uses up his fast troops spooking your fanatics early - fast cav, fliers - and loses them in the process. More fanatics don't really accomplish this anymore, and will often cost you more than they do your opponent. Save points, get another unit instead of a couple more fanatics.