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EvC
03-04-2007, 13:42
Say you've got a unit of Flyers on high ground, or a Flying Large Target; they can fly over interposing enemy units to charge another unit they can see. If you declare a charge against an enemy unit that's for example 18" away and it flees in response, could you then use "enemy in the way" to charge a unit that's closer than the fleeing enemy?

lparigi34
03-04-2007, 14:23
In 6th you could not. But as the rules as written now, it seems to me that you can redirect the charge to any legal objective.

Ganymede
03-04-2007, 15:33
I'd say no... you are determining that you can make the charge by overflying the nearer troops who block ground access to the unit you want to charge. In other words, if you collide with an enemy unit before you even reach the original position of the unit you declared a charge on, then the charge couldn't have posibly been legal.

To contrast though, you can declare enemy in the way on enemy units behind the original position of the charged unit.

lparigi34
03-04-2007, 15:47
Ganymede got it right. My previous post was wrong.

EvC
03-04-2007, 15:47
Well yes, but the first unit flees before you move the charger, so it doesn't really matter that if you collide with the front enemy first as the rear one has already fled. Sure it's a dumb abstraction, but so is the notion that a unit can stand and shoot outside its range (And sunsequently panic the charger)... doesn't mean it can't be done.

Festus
03-04-2007, 15:54
According to the EitW rule, the target has just to be on the charger's path. It doesnt matter if it is behind of in front of the original target. I say: Go for it!

If it is in the way of the charging unit, then it is an Enemy in the Way!

Festus

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 17:31
In English "in the way" means "obstructing". If it does not obstruct your movement (eg you can fly over it) then it is not in the way.

lparigi34
03-04-2007, 17:39
U guys are fun... ;)

Festus
03-04-2007, 19:00
Hi

In English "in the way" means "obstructing". If it does not obstruct your movement (eg you can fly over it) then it is not in the way.
Does that mean that a flying unit or a unit of flyers may never use the EitW rule then? ;)

Festus

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 20:17
Does that mean that a flying unit or a unit of flyers may never use the EitW rule then? ;) No, there are definite circumstances where a unit can be in the way of a flying charge.

DeathlessDraich
03-04-2007, 20:19
I mentioned this in another thread - Mounted Dragons etc charging and EITW.
I still think the rules seem to indicate that flyers have a choice of using or not using EITW -whether this is an intended loophole or an oversight.

pg 23 EITW:
"as they make their charge move... run into another enemy unit"

Imprecise choice of words by the rule makers again.

Q1. What exactly is meant by "run into another enemy unit"? Does it mean 'move into' enemy interposing in the direction of charge or enemies interposing in the actual charge path?
Actual charge path and charge direction must be clarified for flyers as they are different.

Can flyers 'run'?

pg 68 Flying charges: "... Can otherwise move over models and scenery"
The next phrase which follows the above is more important : "...that would stop the charge of a normal model"

Flyers can therefore fly over EITW [who would stop the charge] if they want to.

At the same time the presence of the word "can" shows the have a choice of using EITW.

Brodrick
03-04-2007, 21:48
@DeathlessDraich - the passsage you quote is clairified by the passage immediately after your quote.

The rules specify that a flying unit is moved directly to the target, flying over interposing models and terrain. This seems to imply that once the target is specified, it is moved, range allowing, into base to base contact without the option of enemy in the way unless the target unit is fleeing.

just how interpret the passage on flying charges.

Festus
04-04-2007, 06:26
Hi
This seems to imply that once the target is specified, it is moved ...
See what you wrote: When is which target of the charge specified?

Festus

Tutore
04-04-2007, 07:15
Hmmm am I completely drunk or EitW does only apply when pursuing a unit which failed a break test?

Festus
04-04-2007, 07:32
Then you are completely drunk: EitW applies if a unit flees from the charge. It is the 7th Ed way of redirecting a charge...

Festus

Tutore
04-04-2007, 10:10
I am completely drunk.

Brodrick
04-04-2007, 22:59
Hi
See what you wrote: When is which target of the charge specified?

Festus

Not trying to narrow the ambiguity of the rules, was just trying to clarify one of the statements made about flyers charging.

It would seem that one of the only times this would be any issue would be when the flyer is on some sort of higher elevation (beside compul moves). the rules do say that the charging unit must have clear LOS before declaring the charge. That being the case, I feel that under normal circumstances, the flyer can only take advantage of EitW, at a point further from the original location of the original target.

:)

EvC
05-04-2007, 00:15
Well I did specificall stated that it would be from flyers or high ground, or a Large Target that can fly (And therefore see over interposing units)...

Brodrick
05-04-2007, 01:12
Well, EvC, I apologize for loosing track of the thread. A cliche comes to mind, but i will leave it to the other posters on this thread to fill it in, because I definately deserve it.:rolleyes:

Back on topic. I agree that there is nothing rulewise preventing EitW prior to reaching the target (which ever one it may be). That being said, I would image a deadly glare directed at you for declaring the new charge on anything before the original target's original location.

patefoigras
05-04-2007, 11:32
Say you've got a unit of Flyers on high ground, or a Flying Large Target; they can fly over interposing enemy units to charge another unit they can see. If you declare a charge against an enemy unit that's for example 18" away and it flees in response, could you then use "enemy in the way" to charge a unit that's closer than the fleeing enemy?

I would say no... cause you can only redirect a charge against targets that you cant charge at the start of turn... only now when the other unit is out of the way, and if you are on a hill or a large target (like my bloodthirster) you can not redirect, only hope they dont flee far enough so you fly 20 inch and wipe them out...

Atrahasis
05-04-2007, 13:15
I would say no... cause you can only redirect a charge against targets that you cant charge at the start of turn... If we were discussing 6th edition rules you would be correct. However "redirect" is no longer the terminology and the condition you're applying no longer applies.

Tutore
05-04-2007, 14:03
I was wrong. Anyway: if the enemy is in the way while charging but the target unit doesn't flee (and was thus unreachable) you can't charge the unit in the path can you?

Atrahasis
05-04-2007, 14:07
I was wrong. Anyway: if the enemy is in the way while charging but the target unit doesn't flee (and was thus unreachable) you can't charge the unit in the path can you?

The condition that the target unit must flee to allow EitW was removed in the recent FAQ.

Chicago Slim
05-04-2007, 20:57
Anyway: if the enemy is in the way while charging but the target unit doesn't flee (and was thus unreachable) you can't charge the unit in the path can you?

As Atrahasis indicates, EitW is errata'd to remove the conditional statement about fleeing. It now clearly applies to ANY situation in which enemy are, well, in the way of a charge.

Now, if you're flying, it's pretty hard for enemy to be in the way of your charge, since you can and will fly right over them. The exception would be if the enemy are 20" from your starting point, in the line to the unit you declared your charge against-- when you try to land your flying move, the enemy are in the way, so you can fail your charge or charge them, as you wish.

This means, for example, that you can put a unit 1" in front of another unit, thus making it impossible for flyers to charge that rear unit, even if they can see it: when the flyers try to land, the forward unit is in the way...


In related thoughts: I see few reasons why flyers would not have the option of staying on the ground, in which case they use their Mv score, instead of their 20" flight. This comes up pretty often with Brettonian Pegasus Knights, who can march or charge 16" through woods and other difficult terrain (Mv 8, skirmishers). Boy, was that a harsh lesson when my Waywatchers learned it!

One of the few times when I think flyers would be required to take to the sky would be when they declare a charge which they could complete by flying, but would fail by not flying: I believe that the rules compel chargers to do their absolute best to complete their charge.


As for line of sight-- plenty of units of flyers are skirmishers, with 360 degree LOS, and it's not hard to construct a situation where one member of a skirmishing unit (which is more than 50% in the front arc of a target unit) can see past a forward target, allowing the entire unit to declare a charge on the rear target. I can draw a picture, if anyone needs one.

Atrahasis
05-04-2007, 23:12
The exception would be if the enemy are 20" from your starting point, in the line to the unit you declared your charge against-- when you try to land your flying move, the enemy are in the way, so you can fail your charge or charge them, as you wish.Which raises another interesting point - how do you fail such a charge? Or rather, where do the flyers end up?


This comes up pretty often with Brettonian Pegasus Knights, who can march or charge 16" through woods and other difficult terrain (Mv 8, skirmishers). Boy, was that a harsh lesson when my Waywatchers learned it! It isn't "official", but Anthony Reynolds has stated that PK's were never meant to move freely through terrain. The GW forum FAQ said as much before the forums were shut down.

scatterlaser
06-04-2007, 01:48
It isn't "official", but Anthony Reynolds has stated that PK's were never meant to move freely through terrain. The GW forum FAQ said as much before the forums were shut down.
They've actually made that part of the flying cavarly rules now (if you didn't already know, anyway):

"Also, if they decide to move on the ground using their Move value, they move as skirmishers but they do not ignore difficult terrain penalties as the mounted warriors are much less agile than a skirmisher on foot" - rulebook, page 69.

Enjoy trotting 4" a turn, bird-knights.

Tutore
06-04-2007, 13:27
The condition that the target unit must flee to allow EitW was removed in the recent FAQ.

Argh I missed that.

Atrahasis
06-04-2007, 14:00
They've actually made that part of the flying cavarly rules now (if you didn't already know, anyway):I thought I'd seen it somewhere, but I checked the skirmisher rules expecting to find it there (silly me).

It does concern me that if, at some point, GW produce a unit of skirmishers on larger bases that they'll be able to move through woods etc freely simply because they put the rule under flying cavalry rather than skirmishers.