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Wooz
03-04-2007, 19:56
My friends and I were having a discussion about Flagellants the other night and couldn't come to any agreement. I'm hoping the posters here might be able to offer their opinions on the subject.

Flaggellants can use "the end is nigh" special rule to martyr some of their troops. The D3 roll when using this rule will give them hatred towards the unit they are currently in close combat with. This bonus as well as the other two possible results are lost at the end of the close combat phase.

The disagreemnt is over hatred.

Do they get the "re-roll missed hits" portion of hatred ....
...only if this is the first round of close combat.
...if this is the first round of close combat that the unit had hatred.
...any and all rounds they get hatred
or some other option that we couldn't think of while in the midst of a number of yummy drinks.

Thank you.

Festus
03-04-2007, 20:11
Hi

they get the "re-roll missed hits" portion of hatred ....
...only if this is the first round of close combat.

The answer was there all the time ;)

FEstus

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 21:19
Agreed. It makes "The End is Nigh" slightly risky in 2nd and subsequent rounds of combat.

Archaon
03-04-2007, 22:43
I think this is a special issue.

Hatred allows you hit rerolls for every first round of combat normally.. however this is a special rule for Flaggellants and they may roll each turn for effects and i guess martyring themselves would renew the hatred each turn.

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 22:45
Well you can play it any way your opponent agrees, but there's nothing to suggest your interpretation is the correct one as far as the rules are concerned.

Archaon
03-04-2007, 22:54
Yours neither.. they get hatred via a special rule and it is not listed under their profile like most regular rules for any troop type.

They get the roll each round and since you automatically roll at least a 1 they get hatred each turn if you want.

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 22:58
Yours neither.. they get hatred via a special rule and it is not listed under their profile like most regular rules for any troop type.

They get the roll each round and since you automatically roll at least a 1 they get hatred each turn if you want.

On the contrary, they gain the special rule "Hatred" which only has an effect if it is the first round of combat. The only interpretation that requires wishful thinking is yours, the rules themselves work perfectly well without it.

Deftoneus
03-04-2007, 23:02
Ya, unfortunatly i think Atrahasis is correct (unfortunate because i play with the little buggers).

The problem is, the Empire Book states that they gain hatred. Hatred only works in the first round of combat. If they wanted it to work every time, they would have wrote it as "Re-roll failed rolls to hit" instead of "Gain's Hatred".

Crappy, but thats the way its works.

Archaon
03-04-2007, 23:03
Once again.. hatred is not under their normal profile in the unit description.

Since they get hatred by a special rule it takes precedence over the normal hatred rules as many other special rules take precedence over standard rules.
You can roll on the "End is Nigh" table each turn therefore you are guaranteed at least hatred each turn.

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 23:07
You don't seem to understand. We aren't arguing that they don't gain Hatred.

They definitely gain Hatred. However Hatred only has the effect of granting rerolls to hit in the first round of combat. If it isn't the first round of combat then the flagellants do not get to reroll to hit. They will, however, be forced to pursue if they break their opponents.

Archaon
03-04-2007, 23:10
And i argue that they get a "new" Hatred each turn since it is listed under a special rule and thus not subject to normal Hatred rules otherwise they might as well have included it in their profile instead of a special rule.

Deftoneus
03-04-2007, 23:16
How is 'new' hatred not subject to 'normal' hatred rules? Hatred is hatred...it only works in the first round of combat. Simple as that.

And the reason they didn't include it in their profile, is because they want to you have to kill flaggies in order to gain it...and even though it may not be useful in other rounds, you still have the chance of gaining the re-rolling to wound (which is useful) and the combat resolution bonus.

And remember Atrahasis, flaggalents are permanently frenzied, so they have to chase anyways :P

Jonke
03-04-2007, 23:18
And i argue that they get a "new" Hatred each turn since it is listed under a special rule and thus not subject to normal Hatred rules otherwise they might as well have included it in their profile instead of a special rule.

Can you qoute these special Hatred-rules you are talking about?

There are one rules-set for Hatred, the ones in the brb. Nowhere does it say the flagellants follow any other rules.

Peace!

laughingman
03-04-2007, 23:22
if I remember correct it states that they re-roll like hatred.

So they do get the re roll.

but i dont have my book with me.[dice0]

Deftoneus
03-04-2007, 23:25
if I remember correct it states that they re-roll like hatred.

So they do get the re roll.

but i dont have my book with me.[dice0]

Ask and you shall receive! As per the Empire book:

1. The Flagellants Hate all enemies.
2. The Flagallants may re-roll failed rolls to wound.
3. Add +1 to the Flagallants' combat resolution score at the end of close combat.

Even my punctuation is exact!

Atrahasis
03-04-2007, 23:36
And remember Atrahasis, flaggalents are permanently frenzied, so they have to chase anyways :PVery true :)


Even my punctuation is exact!You misspelt "flagellants" twice though :(

Deftoneus
03-04-2007, 23:39
Very true :)

You misspelt "flagellants" twice though :(

Son-of-a-****! ;)

Spelling was never my strong suit...

GodHead
04-04-2007, 00:28
Archaon, you are wrong. You won't get right by saying the same things again and again. You have Atrahasis and Festus unified in their opposition against you. Give up now.

Wooz
04-04-2007, 01:18
This is pretty much what our disagreement boiled down to as well. I'm just happy we were only debating rules to make sure we all agreed and not in the middle of a game when this came up.

Archaon
04-04-2007, 02:06
Archaon, you are wrong. You won't get right by saying the same things again and again. You have Atrahasis and Festus unified in their opposition against you. Give up now.

WTF is this kind of crap reasoning?

Just because it is 2 vs 1 they automatically "win"?

Are they on the GW design team or do they go out with Gav Thorpe to a bar twice a week to have inside knowledge?

We both offered our reasoning, i stand by my interpretation and they have good arguments too.
As long as no one shows me an official Empire FAQ clearing that up i'm not giving up on anything.

I'd really like an official ruling on this since i'm planning on starting a Witch Hunter themed Empire army this year and don't want to screw anybody over by a possible rules misunderstanding but giving up just because i'm in the minority?

They didn't convince me and it is not that important to me to phone up GW (and even that is disputed because you'll get 3 different answers by asking 2 GW guys).

Way to go.. :rolleyes:

TheWarSmith
04-04-2007, 02:47
Archaon, your ruling isn't the "by the book" way of it. I'd let it fly and think it's the way it should work in friendly games, but it's not RAW by far.

The rules for hatred say nothing about the unit having to have always had hatred. Hatred works in the first round of combat, and if you start hating in the 2nd round, the first round is gone. It doesn't say "in the first round in which the enemy hates" or something to that affect.

NakedFisherman
04-04-2007, 02:48
You have Atrahasis and Festus unified in their opposition against you.

So? Rules only require one person to be correct.

CasaHouse
04-04-2007, 03:16
The rules for hatred say you get the re-rolls in the first round of combat. Thus, if you recieve hatred after round 1, tough cookies. Unless it says otherwise in the rules for flagellants, that's how it works... every time.

Archaon, you are arguing that since they get a special rule that isn't on their profile to begin with, that the special rule is immune to it's own limitations. If I used your reasoning on say... my Ogres, than I could argue that if I gave my Tyrant the Skullplucker, his killing blow should apply to ANY model since it is coming from a 'special rule' and it was not originally on his profile.

It doesn't work that way... Killing blow is killing blow, and hatred is hatred, regardless of where or when your unit gets it.

Just my two cents.

-Casa

Tarian
04-04-2007, 04:07
I agree with CasaHouse. Unless otherwise stated, (Killing blow on Large Targets for Virtue of Heroism) it should be treated as the regular rule.

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 04:10
To bad... so far I was playing as Archaon says.

I believe the rule is clearly written.. Hatred is Hatred, as per the BRB. Though, as usual, and the way the rule is written (or poorly written), it seems to me that the original intent was to make it possible to get re-rolls to-hit on every turn... but here I'm going to stop to agree with Archaon.

After reading the arguments, I support that the rule was written as-it-is-now so until further official clarification, FAQ or GAV statement to make it even more confusing, I will change the way I play it.

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 04:17
To add to the confussion, the way the Hatred rule is (poorly?) written seems to support Archaon reasoning. If you have Hatred as a basic rule, then you have to discharge your anger it in the first round of combat.

So if at anytime during a battle, you get Hatred, then it means the anger just accumulated and you will express it in the next opportunity you have.

Alas, this raises a doubt on me. If I have hatred as a general rule, do I get the extra attack in the first round of the first combat, or in the first round of every combat?

CasaHouse
04-04-2007, 04:39
Alas, this raises a doubt on me. If I have hatred as a general rule, do I get the extra attack in the first round of the first combat, or in the first round of every combat?

You don't get an extra attack at all. You re-roll missed hits for the first round of combat. (assuming you hate what you are fighting)

-Casa

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 05:23
Sure Casa, I meant the re-roll, as in my first post... tanks a lot.

GodHead
04-04-2007, 05:31
WTF is this kind of crap reasoning?

The reasoning is that Atrahasis and Festus represent some of the most reasonable and rules-lawyer-y posters on this (and possibly any) Warhammer forum (I'll leave it to you to decide which is which). Therefore chances are when they are in unanimous agreement on a matter, positions taken contrary to theirs must have some substantial evidence to be worth holding, which yours does not, which means it is not so.

CasaHouse
04-04-2007, 05:46
I apologize for the blunt reply Iparigi... I just re-read my post and I didn't intend to snap like that.

I also misread your intended question. BRB Pg. 53:
"Troops fighting in close combat with a hated foe may re-roll any misses when they attack in the first round of any close combat. This bonus only applies in the first turn of a combat and represents the unit venting it's pent-up hatred on the foe. After the first round of blood-mad hacking, they lose impetus and subsequently fight as normal for the rest of the combat."

First round of ANY combat. So in between fights you work up your anger again apparently.

So in round 2 and up if you don't get a 3+ on your roll for the flagellants, you just wasted a guy. Your other flagellants probably got a few cheap laughs though...

-Casa

DeathlessDraich
04-04-2007, 11:09
Are they on the GW design team or do they go out with Gav Thorpe to a bar twice a week to have inside knowledge?

We both offered our reasoning, i stand by my interpretation and they have good arguments too.
As long as no one shows me an official Empire FAQ clearing that up i'm not giving up on anything.
:

Here's the FAQ*:
Q: Do Flaggelants Hatred apply in every round of combat?
A: No it doesn't. Gav Thorpe said so when I drank him under the table last night! :p

Hope that satisfies you Archaon.
...
.
Feel free to ask me to pass on any questions to Gav.
.
.
*taken from the unHoly Book of Festus:p

Festus
04-04-2007, 11:35
*taken from the unHoly Book of Festus:p
How? How do you know about it? I never showed you! Never! :mad:

Treason! ;)

Festus

mattjgilbert
04-04-2007, 11:58
I agree with the masses. The rules for Hatred are very clear in stating the bonus to to re-roll any misses applies to the first round only. Gaining Hatred in subsequent rounds will not grant this bonus*. However, what the unit WILL be subject to in any round of combat is the other Hatred rule... they must always pursue...

*whether that was intended or not is a different matter but those are RaW.

Archaon
04-04-2007, 14:00
Sometimes i really hate GW for being so lackluster in customer support.. were this Flames of War (another TT game) i had an official answer by now because the people making the game are frequent visitors of their own board and give out official rulings (or wouldn't even let it come this far because they write their rules better) :(

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 14:12
C'mon Archaon... this is not that bad... just more organic ;)

Casa, thanks a lot for the rule quote, one problem I have is that my rulebook is in Spanish and sometimes the translation adds more confusion. I hope I'm getting my english version pretty soon... :cool:

Archaon
04-04-2007, 14:25
All right.. i'll concede.

The matter didn't leave my head so i did something i haven't done in years and called GW Germany directly :p

They said that the hate follows normal rules and thus only works for the first round of combat.

Case solved (at least for me).

Wooz
04-04-2007, 15:07
Thanks everyone.

However, I have one further twist to put on this.

If two units are already in close combat and, say on their third round of slugging it out, a unit of flagellants charge in to join the fun. The way I am interpreting all of this discussion, is that the flagellants could on that first round of combat they are involved in get the hatred bonus when using "The End is Nigh". This is because it is THEIR first round of combat and the number of rounds the other units in that battle have been fighting doesnt' matter.

CasaHouse
04-04-2007, 15:13
Wooz, you are correct. The Flagellants get their re-rolls, because it is the first round in which they are engaged in combat.

Aelyn
04-04-2007, 15:40
Wooz, you are correct. The Flagellants get their re-rolls, because it is the first round in which they are engaged in combat.
Actually, by RAW he's wrong - the rules for hatred state the units can re-roll failed to hits against a hated foe "in the first turn of any close combat. This bonus only applies in the first turn of a combat..." which technically means that if the unit with Hatred doesn't get into combat until the second or later turn of that combat, they don't get the bonus.

Yay for badly-written rules!

Wooz
04-04-2007, 15:51
Actually, by RAW he's wrong - the rules for hatred state the units can re-roll failed to hits against a hated foe "in the first turn of any close combat. This bonus only applies in the first turn of a combat..." which technically means that if the unit with Hatred doesn't get into combat until the second or later turn of that combat, they don't get the bonus.

Yay for badly-written rules!

But that's the question then.

Because if the flagellants have just charged into combat, it IS their first round of combat.

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 16:18
Well Wooz, then it is pretty straightforward and you get the re-roll to hit if you sacrificed at least 1 martyr.

Anyway, you brought up a valid point and we all agreed on a "correct" answer.

(being the answer that GAV was drunk when he wrote the rules) :angel:

Wooz
04-04-2007, 16:41
Well Wooz, then it is pretty straightforward and you get the re-roll to hit if you sacrificed at least 1 martyr.

Anyway, you brought up a valid point and we all agreed on a "correct" answer.

(being the answer that GAV was drunk when he wrote the rules) :angel:

I appreciate the extra snark in your answer.

I'm asking a serious question. I may have an opinion on how I think it should be resolved, but that doesn't mean I'm going to fight for that opinion to the death. I'm hoping that someone will be able to offer an opinion that will either tell me I'm still wrong or say that I got it right.

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 17:54
But that's the question then. Because if the flagellants have just charged into combat, it IS their first round of combat.


Well Wooz, then it is pretty straightforward and you get the re-roll to hit if you sacrificed at least 1 martyr.



I appreciate the extra snark in your answer. ;)


I'm asking a serious question. I may have an opinion on how I think it should be resolved, but that doesn't mean I'm going to fight for that opinion to the death. I'm hoping that someone will be able to offer an opinion that will either tell me I'm still wrong or say that I got it right.

... I mean, what was not serious in my answer???... oh, those extra paragraphs :D

Flagellants charged, this IS their first round of combat. At the begining of the CC Phase you decide to sacrifice flagellants and of course you roll at least one martyr :rolleyes:, so you get to re-roll your to-hit rolls in that combat round, if you rolled for more than one martyr apply the other effects afterward, as they stack. IMO, if they just joined an already going on combat is of little consequence, though as per the RAW there is room for discussion.

When the round of the combat is not the 1st, then the the first effect when you roll for martyrs is neglected...

Hope I was serious enough this time... And thanks again, seriuosly. I just started to paint my flagellant unit!!! :cool:

Deftoneus
04-04-2007, 17:58
IMO, if they just joined an already going on combat is of little consequence

Don't underestimate the effect of a bunch of charging crazy-people who get to reroll hits and wounds (potentially) at str 5. It can really mess some units up! :eek:

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 18:05
LoL... I just meant it for the fact that the flaggies get their re-roll

Wooz
04-04-2007, 20:01
;)



... I mean, what was not serious in my answer???... oh, those extra paragraphs :D

Flagellants charged, this IS their first round of combat. At the begining of the CC Phase you decide to sacrifice flagellants and of course you roll at least one martyr :rolleyes:, so you get to re-roll your to-hit rolls in that combat round, if you rolled for more than one martyr apply the other effects afterward, as they stack. IMO, if they just joined an already going on combat is of little consequence, though as per the RAW there is room for discussion.

When the round of the combat is not the 1st, then the the first effect when you roll for martyrs is neglected...

Hope I was serious enough this time... And thanks again, seriuosly. I just started to paint my flagellant unit!!! :cool:


Ok, thanks.

Sorry, but your first answer seemed more a swipe at me rather than an answer to the question.

lparigi34
04-04-2007, 20:54
My apologies then... It never was mi intent...:cool:

NakedFisherman
04-04-2007, 21:17
The reasoning is that Atrahasis and Festus represent some of the most reasonable and rules-lawyer-y posters on this (and possibly any) Warhammer forum (I'll leave it to you to decide which is which). Therefore chances are when they are in unanimous agreement on a matter, positions taken contrary to theirs must have some substantial evidence to be worth holding, which yours does not, which means it is not so.

The reasoning doesn't make sense. Two people are in agreement, therefore it cannot possibly be another way?

On-topic: Hatred applies in the first round only. Always. You can give Flagellants re-rolls to hit in subsequent rounds, but you'd just be cheating.

There isn't any mis-intent here. Flagellants follow the rules for Hatred. Giving them re-rolls to hit all the time is about as silly as giving their flails +2 strength all the time.

GodHead
05-04-2007, 05:30
No... Do you have a reading comprehension problem? :P


positions taken contrary to theirs must have some substantial evidence to be worth holding, which yours does not

Ahh yes, I did say the thing I knew I said that you totally mis-read or misrepresented. Evidence can support another position just like usual.

And that's only within the context of two posters who have in the past taken very different positions on "RAW" debates.

In any case it was meant to be a facetious comment on this individual situation, drawing more attention to Festus' and Atrahasis' personalities than anything else, and not a general appeal to authority to settle all disputes...