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Red Skullz
03-04-2007, 21:08
Hey all,

I`m a rookie or rather "juve" player when it comes to Necromunda. Now I`m wondering on what gang or house to start with. Does it really matter a lot or should I just go for one that I like the look of best?

talast,
Red

Major_Gilbear
03-04-2007, 22:30
If you are very new, I suggest the following steps in the following order:

1) Download and read the Living Rulebook here (http://www.specialist-games.com/necromunda/rulebook.asp).

2) Choose a gang from the main six Houses (Orlock, Van Saar, Goliath, Escher, Delaque or Cawdor). They all start out the same, and all have a pretty even chance of being good*, so pick the one you like the sound of best.

3) Find/buy/make some models! Don't forget to show us what your gang looks like! ;)

4) Find some opponents and get fighting (the best bit, hehe!).

* This may be less true if you are using the newest version of the printed rules or the online rules. This is because each House has a limited weapons selection that hampers what certain gangs can be armed with somewhat, especially at the gang creation stage.

I would suggest that you totally ignore the House Weapons restritions BTW. Allow all House gangs to buy any of the common wepons and equipment as they like, although category restrictions would still apply (i.e. only a Heavy can take a heavy stubber for example). The original rules were like this and it was not only more fun, but made a lot more sense too.

Gangs all start the same essentially; no skills, all with the same statlines, and with the same equipment options. What makes the Houses so different from one another is the skills that they have access to. The skill lists are restricted for each House, and each list is very specific. You will find that as your gang matures, it will naturally gravitate to a greater or lesser degree towards the direction that the skill lists point to. So a gang like Escher would start off like the others, but start to have gangers with agility and close combat skills after a few games. These may be useful or not, but in the longer run they will pile up on your gangers and define how they are best played - along with any stat increases too of course.

The Outlander gangs are all more complicated because they revolve around bending, breaking or outright ignoring the House gang rules in various ways; they introduce new weapons, equipment, fighters, income collection, terretories, etc.

Whilst these Outlanders are all great gangs to play, you are better off learning the rules before you break them, so stick with a House gang to start with.

Hope this helps, shout if not :)

Red Skullz
03-04-2007, 22:36
Eh...wow!

Thanks for that very insightfull response Gilbear :)
So me being an ork/orc player in WHFB, 40K and BB the natural gang for me might be Goliaths without dwelling overly much would it ;)

I`ll do as you say bud, I`ve just read through the last section of "Underhive" so still need to work my way through the main rules (I am a rookia at N but have played 13+ years in the other aforementioned games).

Cheers!

talast,
Red

Major_Gilbear
03-04-2007, 22:47
You're welcome!

Yes, I think Goliaths would be the obvious choice if you are an Ork player in the other systems (Strength & Combat skills). You might like Cawdor too though (Ferocity & Combat skills).

I'd also recommend getting the original rules in hardback from Ebay; I'd say about £15 including local shipping is reasonable. It includes all the whole Outlanders supplement (including Outlawed House gangs), an almanac of all the original model line and is in one handy tome.

Finally, I can't wait to see your gang when you get it done (I loved your BB teams!), so please pleasebe sure to show us your efforts :P.

Catferret
03-04-2007, 23:47
Necromunda is pretty darned balanced so any of the House Gangs are a good starting point. I agree with Gilbear about Goliath or Cawdor as appropriate for Ork players.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy Necromunda!

Red Skullz
04-04-2007, 09:32
Cheers guys :)

And of course, the making of the gang will be in a blog of some sort ;) Thanks for the compliments on my BB teams Gilbear, do appreciate it :D

As another question, how would you rank Necromunda in entertainment value compared to GWs other games? I personally rank BB very high and that`s the game that`s made me wanting to take the plunge in the other Specialists Games.

R

Catferret
04-04-2007, 11:09
Necromunda ranks very highly IMHO.

1. Inquisitor
2. Necromunda
3. Mordheim
4. Bloodbowl

Bloodbowl is a good game but there are a few too many overcompetitive w*****s who play. They really spoilt it for me. Shame really, I used to really enjoy it.

Major_Gilbear
04-04-2007, 12:10
Hmm, I'd say:

Epic
Necromunda
Battlefleet Gothic
Mordheim
Inquisitor
Bloodbowl

Epic is, well, epic. Though is was a bit incomplete, the 3rd Ed (E40K) was my favourite version of this fantastic game. I've been playing it since SM2nd.

I think that Necromunda is everything that many players of WH40k find missing; it is more imaginative, rewards careful and canny players, and not everything is always fair. For example, some scenarios are weighted against the defenders, others against the attackers. Since you carry your gang over from game to game, it requires players to fight in a more considered way. Necromunda also rewards players; post battle sequences allow new recruits, weapons, equipment and skills to be added to the gang, so that finishing a scenario has more meaning than winning a game of WH40k.

BFG ranks as high as it does IMHO because it is such a supremely tactical game. Granted, the miniatures, scenarios and fleet compositions are limited compared to other games, but it is cheap to collect and damned hard to play well. This means that it rewards careful thinking and the occasional bold move.

I rank Inquisitor low because it requires a third party (the GM) to play, and because it is hard to balance easily; this leads to all sorts problems in my experience, and so whittles down the number of sensible opponents to play with. It also requires a lot of creative input from the players outside the battles themselves, and this too can be hard to keep fair for all parties.

BB ranks bottom for me for similar reasons to Catferret's. Also, I never really liked sports that much, less so in a fantasy setting!

AMBS
04-04-2007, 13:59
Take 12 men armed with lasguns = win!

Red Skullz
04-04-2007, 21:17
Oh I totally forgot Epic! I used to play that game when it was first released (or was it re-released) 10 something years ago. Brill game definitely :D

As for the others (except BB) I`ve never tried them. Almost started with Mordheim but it seemed like a fantasified version of Necromunda, and the whole gangs vs gangs and cyberpunk theme really hits my soft spots (sound corky I know lol).

Cheers for the feedback lads! But in some ways I`m not that surprised since the specialists games seems to have a small but very loyal fanbase. At least that`s my positive experience with BB. And with that said, I`ve never been a huge sport fan myself but after playing BB I can actually understand the "big deal" with stats lol :D

Again, thanks for the help guys. I can`t wait to get crackin`with this game, especially with my 100% converted and customised gang :evilgrin:

talast,
Red

Eazy-O
05-04-2007, 13:39
Take 12 men armed with lasguns = win!

Boring... some might say cheesy. I don't care, they drop just the same. But really, try adding a bit of variety to your weapon options. :)

Vladimir Deathblade
05-04-2007, 14:33
Personaly, BFG comes out on top, but the specialist games are all pritty good. I havn't had chance to try out epic o waraster yet, and havn't quite got into blood bowl. (Though I have played the odd league great fun :D) Necromunder has the odd ting that needs a bit of a twek, but overall it is a fantastic game.

Red Skullz
05-04-2007, 20:57
Many of you seem to really like BFG, I`ve even heard by someone that it was THE best game GW has released. Maybe I should give it a try..but that`s for later ;)

On topic again...as for my Goliaths gang, what would you guys recommend as a starting gang? Are they elitist or can I bulk out with a lot of bodies in juves (hey I play orcs, quantity is my game)?

R

Major_Gilbear
05-04-2007, 22:46
Well, CC gangs do need a few meatshie... er, Juves to minimise the incoming fire your gangers will take on the way in. Unfortunately, Juves aren't great fighters, and despite their advances usually doon't make great gangers. A few might, but most don't. I would strongly suggest that you take at least two, and no more than four at the most. Juves are cheap enough to be replaced whenever they take too many injuries to be useful anymore. Also, bear in mind that Juves count towards your gang size on the Income Table, but can't gain any income for the gang until they become gangers themselves.

Gangers need to really to be armed for either CC or with a basic weapon. Not all your fighters will get skills as advances, and not all your advances will be for CC. Therefore, try and get a good number (half maybe?) with decent basic weapons; lasguns, autoguns and shotguns.
The CC gangers can have whatever you like, but mauls, swords and maybe a flail are good, as well as pistols. Sadly, most of the pistols are rather crappy, but autopistols are pretty good. Also, despite the poor Ammo roll, bolt pistols are surprisingly effective too. Remember that you won't be firing these pistols often, and when you do it is likely to be at short range; that's why it is important to pick a pistol that won't give you any negative to-hit modifiers.

The leader is pretty much open and can be armed however you wish. He's good at CC and at shooting, and can be given Special Weapons too. Personally, I equip my leaders to be the opposite of what my gangs are geared towards, as it helps compensate somewhat for any weaknesses when they play as a whole. Besides, you can always re-equip him later if his advances take him in a different direction.

Heavies can be difficult in a CC-orientated gang. There is no doubt in my mind that HWs are very effective, but I do find that they are not as effective if you don't have plenty of other gangers backing them up with their firepower too. HWs are also very costly, limiting your gang size too much if you take two or an expensive one. Therefore, I would suggest that you equip them with Special Weapons in a Goliath gang. You can then move and shoot, as well as the Heavies and CC gangers being able to provide each other withmutual support. Special Weapons also avoid the -1 HtH penalty, do better in Shoot-Outs and heavies with Shooting skills can use more of them with SWs that with HWs.

Some more general thoughts:

> Giving Heavies Special Weapons instead of HWs saves creds which can be spent on more bodies (i.e. bigger gang).

> Having a leader equipped for shooting with either a boltgun or a Special Weapon gives your gang three very powerful weapons to bear on your enemy (i.e. Heavies & leader). In Necromunda, some scenarios start with random numbers of randomly-chosen gangers, and so spreading your heavy fire among three models like this can give you an edge in getting some heavier firepower in any given game.

> You will need gangers with long-ranged reliable guns. I'd suggest at least three lasguns/autoguns and at least one shotgun with Manstoppers. Shotguns with Manstoppers are very powerful, but they are short ranged and have poor to-hit benefits compared to the lasguns and autoguns.

> Big gangs are possible, especially if you have lots of terretories. To start with though, look at the Income Table and check out the brackets. Nine gang members is considered to be "ideal" by many players, but the next bracket allows up to twelve. I'd suggest no more than twelve, and that you try and maximise the bracket allowances to give the best value for your creds.

>You will need 5 gangers to work your terretories post-game. More if any are injured, or you have more than 5 terretories. I'd suggest you don't start with less than 6.
>Hired guns are expensive, but can give you an edge in certain situations. I personally favour the cheaper ones. Scummers are good in a CC gang, especially if you are facing lots of shooty gangs like Van Saar or Redepmtionists. Pit Slaves are pretty good in CC, but after a few games you're likely to have similar fighters yourself; a Pit Slave with Shears is still tempting though! Finally, the Ratskin Scout. Always good for the possibility of a free terretory, they are great for modifying the scenarios played. With a Ratskin Scout, you are less likely to suffer unfavourable scenarios and more likely to get ones that favour you. They are also not too shabby in a fight, and have a basic weapon - good for supporting a CC gang. Remember too that Hired Guns don't coount towards your gang size for Income Table purposes!

Hope this helps you Red Skullz, you can post up a few lists for dissection later if you want :p

///And BFG is a fantastic game! But the effective fleets you can create are a bit limited compared to the army lists of other game systems. It is very, very tactical, and planning really is everything in BFG. Definately worth a look.
Epic40k FTW tho! :D ///

Catferret
06-04-2007, 00:09
In a previous campaign of mine, a Goliath player did very well with roughly the following:

Leader: Autopistol, Sword
Heavy1: Heavy Stubber, Chain
Heavy2: Heavy Stubber, Chain
Ganger1: Lasgun
Ganger2: Autogun
Ganger3: Shotgun, Manstoppers
Ganger4: Autopistol, Club
Ganger5: Autopistol, Club
Juve1: Club
Juve2: Club
Juve3: Club

Swarm them in H2H was the plan. Juves don't get guns until they become Gangers.

memitchell747
06-04-2007, 04:26
Nobody mentioned it, but terrain, terrain, terrain. Without a LOT of terrain, Necro becomes a hide and wait game. Boring. You gots to have enough terrain that fighters can move around without getting shot down easily. You will need more terrain than your think is enough.

One off games are totally different from a campaign. If you are playing one off games, it makes sense to load up on Gangers and weapons. In a campaign, too much is not good. Remember, your basic Ganger has the same stats as a lowly I-Guardsman. Your Leader would be an I-Guard Sgt., without armor or a reliable weapon. Besides, the lower your Gang Rating, the better off you are, pre-game and post game.

Do you and your pals like power gaming? I don't mean that in a pejorative way. if you do, two heavy weapons is OK. The Sustained Fire rules in the new version are brutal. Need that terrain. If you don't care for lots of carnage, tend towards one heavy armed with a Sustained Fire weapon, and another with a Flamer. Who ever gets the increase in Ballistic Skill gets the shooting weapon.

I like enough Gangers to work my territories. But, Juves are the future, in the long run. They are the ones who gain the most advances the fastest. I usually have four. I don't use them as a meat shield. The problem with that is you end up with a badly injured fighter dragging you down, but you are stuck with him.

I like my Leader to be kitted out with pistols, and a sword. That way, he can use his superior Ballistic Skill where it counts, at close range. Trust me, if he spends his time plinking away with a Bolter at targets in Hard Cover, he will never advance. He needs to get up close, do some effective shooting, and then close in for a satisfying, experience-gaining close combat, preferable with a weakling opponent.

One more note about terrain. The game was designed with specific terrain in mind. If you haven't seen it, it was 2-3 story solid buildings with platforms. There were bulkheads that provided cover, but could be fired through. I you donít use the original terrain, you want stuff that blocks line of sight, and does not incur movement penalties. I've used wrecked buildings and woods before (think central park in downtown Sump Dump), with mixed success. Getting off the ground and moving around on the 2nd and 3rd floors is essential. Not getting bogged down in difficult ground is to. Otherwise, the game slows down, close combat becomes near impossible, and shooting predominates.

Iím a Necromunda Mod on the Specialist Games forum. I hope you find that forum useful.

Oh, if you like Orks, go Goliath. The updated Goliath figs are the best in the game.

Red Skullz
06-04-2007, 10:58
Man you guys are regular heroes :D

I hardly know where to start on replying to all of this lol , but I`ll try :)

GANG:
Well I`ve been dabbling a bit with the list and I`m interested in specifics really.

The leader I would like too see with chainsword and a pistol of some sort. Autopistol is as good as anything I guess, but I like the look of the stubgun best though.

For heavies I kinda feel that the approach I use in CoD would suit fine here. So Heavy Stubber and Flamer makes sense. The question here is if I should go for both first or just one of them. And if I take only one, which of them is best for starters?

Gangers I`ve also thought about approx 4 gangers, 2 with cc&basicw, 2 with basic weapons. Which cc weapons are best here? I like the clubs and stuff but having 1 massive weapon sounds sweet but is it worth it?

As for juves they`ll be the fillers with the remaining credits. Basic weapons best or just cc?

I do have a question on grenades however. Frag sounds "sound" (lol) but how many and for whom?

TERRAIN:
I`ve got a 4*3 feet modular CoD table at my disposal with buildings ranging from 2-4 storeys as well as 10+ 60mm bases with various stuff on them so not to worried here. My gaming group is also very terrain oriented whatever game we play so this is not a problem.

STYLE OF PLAY:
We do have some "competetive" players in our group yeah, if it`s bordering to powergaming...don`t think so really but then again I`m so used to the guys in my group that I know what to expect more often than not.

MINIS:
This`ll be a heavily converted and customised gang as that`s kinda my style. Not that I don`t like the minis for Necromunda, but I like doing it my way + it`s cheaper since I`ve got 13+ years of bitz to take from.

talast,
Red

PS:
I`ll post up the gang as soon as I`ve done some more tweaking.

Major_Gilbear
06-04-2007, 12:13
memitchell is right about needing plenty of terrain, but I do disagree on one point of his arument:

They are the ones who gain the most advances the fastest. I usually have four. I don't use them as a meat shield. The problem with that is you end up with a badly injured fighter dragging you down, but you are stuck with him.
Yes, they get very fast advances, and yes by the time they reach "Ganger" they have an extra advance. But (cruically) you can't control what increases they will get, and you may well find that you end up with a ganger with a crappy collection of advances. As I said earlier Juves aren't great fighters, and despite their advances usually don't make great gangers. A few might, but most don't.
Lastly on this subject, you can always drop members of your gang. So if that Juve gets too crippled with serious injuries, take his equipment off him and drop him. You can always hire a new one. Besides, I'd rather my gangers remained relatively uninjured and that the Juves took the bulk of the Serious Injuries!

Looking at your comments Red Skullz, you can take both a Stubber and a flamer in an initial lineup; a Stubber is a common choice in a starting gang, and a flamer is cheap at only 40 creds. The Stubber is move-or-fire though, so try and deploy it where you want it and avoid moving it more than you have to.

As for your leader, a Bolt pistol might be a good choice (Str 4 attack in HtH too). Shame to waste that superior BS of his afterall. You could take a Stubgun as backup if you like the look of the model. Stubguns can take Dum Dum ammo too (making them Str 4), but I wouldn't recommend that unless you don't intend to fire your pistol very much as they automatically explode if you fail an ammo check.

Take more gangers too! Try and aim for six if you can; you need five uninjured gangers to work all your terretories and maximise your income. Any surplus uninjured gangers can help your leader out at the Trading Post.

CC weapons are a mixed bag. Swords outclass the maul and the flail. But the maul and flail can be very useful, so I'd suggest you take a mix of these. If you're taking two gangers armed exclusively for CC, I'd suggest a sword+pistol and a maul+pistol. Flails are good if you face other gangs which are sword-heavy, otherwise they can be a bit of a liability.

Massive CC weapons look great and don't seem too bad on paper. I have a Cawdor ganger with a giant two-handed executioner's axe who looks pretty intimidating! Game-wise, massive weapons aren't always the most useful; you lose the chance of the extra attack a second weapon gives you, and you lose any draws.

Grenades are also a mixed affair. Some players love them, some hate them. Personally, I don't care for them much as they are a big points-sink and are hard to throw properly and reliably. On the other hand, the new rules grant Frags an Ordnance-sized template! :evilgrin: I'd suggest that you wait a few games, and that if you have a ganger who gets a BS and/or a Str increase, you give him some granades to try out if you want.

And finally, you cannot give Juves basic weapons until they become gangers. Juves are limited to pistol and CC weapons. I usually give them just a pistol, as they get the extra attack in CC for free (they have a free knife), and they can shoot too if the opportunity arises.

Catferret
06-04-2007, 12:26
Actually you can't abandon models unless they get an injury that says they MUST retire. You really are stuck with the useless cripples. Believe me, I know! Read my campaign thread! take all their equipment of them and send them around the edge of the board in Scavengers so they get eaten by monsters!

Major_Gilbear
07-04-2007, 16:56
You know, I don't remember reading anywhere that you had to keep models at all costs once hired into your gang.
I know that there are a few injuries/injury combinations that pretty much force you to retire a gang member, but that isn't the same thing.
Prior to this coming up a few times in more recent months in forums like this, I'd never heard of anybody keeping very seriously injured gangers they didn't want.
If you are an Outlaw gang and don't want a ganger, you can afterall still starve them to death, so why should the penalty of carrying useless gangers be applied to law-abiding gangs who end up with crippled members?

Can somebody enlighten me as to where in any rules or FAQs this has been explicitly cleared up please?

Otherwise, I'd say you can ditch any gangers you want (though of course, you can't re-engage them later).

Tomothy
08-04-2007, 04:56
You know, I don't remember reading anywhere that you had to keep models at all costs once hired into your gang.
And I don't remember reading anywhere that you can retire them. You can only do what the rules specifically let you.


I know that there are a few injuries/injury combinations that pretty much force you to retire a gang member, but that isn't the same thing.
Actually, it sort of is. If it describes specific situations where guys are retired, and nowhere else does it address retiring guys then logically speaking there are no other situations where guys can be retired.


Can somebody enlighten me as to where in any rules or FAQs this has been explicitly cleared up please?
http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11298
Answer_Mod Kal lays down the law.

Major_Gilbear
08-04-2007, 21:40
And I don't remember reading anywhere that you can retire them.

Page 82 of the Rules, under Serious Injuries:

"When you are playing a campaign it matters a great
deal what happens to fighters who go out of action!
They might recover completely ready to fight in the
next battle, or they might sustain debilitating injuries.
Possibly they are captured by the enemy, or maybe
they have to spend a while recovering their strength.
Worst of all they might die or be so badly injured they
have to retire."


You can only do what the rules specifically let you.

Not quite true IMHO:

If your fighter is unlucky enough to sustain enough of injury #33 (Hand Injury), and loses all the fingers on both hands, he specifically can't use any weapons at all as per the injury description. But the injury description doesn't allow you to retire him.
If you look at injury #26 (Blinded in One Eye), it says that they must be retired after two such injuries.
In both cases, the fighter is useless but only required to retire in one instance. And in both cases, a suitable Bionic would allow you to continue with your ganger if you wished. Nonetheless, the rules state that a fighter must retire after two results of #26 and makes no mention of any other instances or situations.


Actually, it sort of is. If it describes specific situations where guys are retired, and nowhere else does it address retiring guys then logically speaking there are no other situations where guys can be retired.
See above.


Many times the rules are written in a brief manner for clarity's sake. Just because something is or is not specifically written doesn't mean that it is automatically gospel. In Necromunda, players are required to use some common sense in order to get the most out of the game. Given this, I'd follow the obvious intention of the section that I quoted above and allow players to retire overly crippled gangers (within reason*).

If you insist on following the letter of the rules in every situation without looking at their intent, then all Outlaw and non-House gangs have an obvious advantage in this respect. Under the rules for Starving, they can be killed off just by not being fed. This sort of lop-sided rules-abuse is what made the Outlander Gangs less balanced than they could have been in the original rules (and they still are pretty unbalanced due to new and different rules loopholes).

*I would say that retiring a ganger with one or two serious injuries is abusing the intent of the rules here.

I don't want to rant any more about this (start a new topic if you want though), but really all SGs need a reasonable amount of sense to play.


http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11298
Answer_Mod Kal lays down the law.
He does, but not only misses a few cruical points as I mention above, he is limited very specifically by GW to what is explicitly written AFAIK (or it isn't "official" otherwise).

Tomothy
08-04-2007, 23:25
Page 82 of the Rules, under Serious Injuries:

"When you are playing a campaign it matters a great
deal what happens to fighters who go out of action!
They might recover completely ready to fight in the
next battle, or they might sustain debilitating injuries.
Possibly they are captured by the enemy, or maybe
they have to spend a while recovering their strength.
Worst of all they might die or be so badly injured they
have to retire."
This is just a reference to what has already been mentioned, cases where the guy is too injured to keep fighting.


If your fighter is unlucky enough to sustain enough of injury #33 (Hand Injury), and loses all the fingers on both hands, he specifically can't use any weapons at all as per the injury description. But the injury description doesn't allow you to retire him.
If you look at injury #26 (Blinded in One Eye), it says that they must be retired after two such injuries.
In both cases, the fighter is useless but only required to retire in one instance. And in both cases, a suitable Bionic would allow you to continue with your ganger if you wished. Nonetheless, the rules state that a fighter must retire after two results of #26 and makes no mention of any other instances or situations.
Correct. By the rules you are not allowed to retire the guy with no fingers. By the rules you are not allowed to retire people whenever you want, regardless of how many injuries they have.


Many times the rules are written in a brief manner for clarity's sake. Just because something is or is not specifically written doesn't mean that it is automatically gospel. In Necromunda, players are required to use some common sense in order to get the most out of the game. Given this, I'd follow the obvious intention of the section that I quoted above and allow players to retire overly crippled gangers (within reason*).
Actually. It does. The rules as written are "the rules". This doesn't mean i'll always play by them. Or that i don't use house rules. I do, a lot. But when you make a statement that something is allowed by the rules, i'm going to point out if technically it isn't.


If you insist on following the letter of the rules in every situation without looking at their intent, then all Outlaw and non-House gangs have an obvious advantage in this respect. Under the rules for Starving, they can be killed off just by not being fed. This sort of lop-sided rules-abuse is what made the Outlander Gangs less balanced than they could have been in the original rules (and they still are pretty unbalanced due to new and different rules loopholes).
Actually. Technically you have to pay the starvation cost for each member you can afford. It would take some pretty tricky manoeuvring to have only one member starve to death. And as an arbitrator i wouldn't allow them to roll scavenging one at a time, i'd say pick how many guys are scavenging, now roll for all of them.


He does, but not only misses a few cruical points as I mention above, he is limited very specifically by GW to what is explicitly written AFAIK (or it isn't "official" otherwise).
True, and the house rule that you can retire guys may work well for you. But power gamers will find problems with official rules, not just house rules. The cherry picking your gang scenario sounds kind of bad to me. How many injuries does it take to retire a ganger? Do beneficial ones count? What about only one result of partially deafened?

You're right, he does have his hands tied. And this is the official rule.

Major_Gilbear
09-04-2007, 00:21
But when you make a statement that something is allowed by the rules, i'm going to point out if technically it isn't.

That's fair enough. The point I'm making here though is that the rules don't technically disallow it. That is to say, I see an instance where a fighter has to be retired, and an instance where a gang can be retired as a whole. I see nothing that says I can't drop a member of gang, and what I'm proposing is neither against the spirit of the rules IMHO nor breaks any that are written.


Actually. Technically you have to pay the starvation cost for each member you can afford. It would take some pretty tricky manoeuvring to have only one member starve to death. And as an arbitrator i wouldn't allow them to roll scavenging one at a time, i'd say pick how many guys are scavenging, now roll for all of them.

As an Arbitrator, all sorts if things may be (dis)allowed. But that is in the realms of House Rules really.
Also, you don't need to roll foraging one-by one (does anyone even do that?). Just send out only some of your foragers; say half. Since you're likely to come up short on creds (assuming no stash), a few will go unfed. Even if the the ganger to be dropped isn't heavily crippled with serious injuries that affect his strength or toughness (#22 and #24), it won't take more a couple of games of sustained starvation to kill him off. Any other starving would simply be rotated so that none of the others misses more than one feeding.
Yes, it is fiddly and even a bit extreme, but not overly so if you are desperate to get rid of a fighter or two with lots of Serious Injuries and can't roll #11-16.


The cherry picking your gang scenario sounds kind of bad to me. How many injuries does it take to retire a ganger? Do beneficial ones count? What about only one result of partially deafened?
Why is it bad? Is it open to abuse, sure; so is about half of the stuff in Necromunda if you put your mind to it. If you manage to get a ganger with seven or eight lasting wounds who struggles to even show up for the battles, would you even bring them along?
If you end up with a reasonable number of heavily-crippled gangers, you can retire the gang and re-hire the non-crippled members into a new gang. Is this less cheesy? I ask as this scenario is covered by the rules.
And why would beneficial injuries cause the ganger to retire; with no ill-effects, there'd be no point?
What about one result of partially deafened? I originally said:


*I would say that retiring a ganger with one or two serious injuries is abusing the intent of the rules here.
Nonetheless, it would still cost you 25+credits to retire a gang member. To do so if they have six, seven or more SIs is reasonable, but to do so after one or two means it starts to get expensive as well as cheesy. This is especially true if you need to drop more than one ganger regularly.


You're right, he does have his hands tied. And this is the official rule.
Strictly then, isn't this the official answer in the absence of any explicit rule, rather than "the official rule"?

Red Skullz
09-04-2007, 10:10
Finally managed to make a list of some sort with the planned Goliaths gang, please dissect it to pieces ;)

Gang Leader w/autopistol & chainsword
Heavy#1 w/heavy stubber & chain
Heavy#2 w/flamer & autopistol
Ganger#1 w/autopistol & club
Ganger#2 w/autopistol & club
Ganger#3 w/autogun
Ganger#4 w/shotgun w/manstoppers
Juve#1 w/club
Juve#2 w/club
Juve#3 w/club

That totals in at 865 credits leaving 135 to go.

My own thoughts on this list is using Heavy#1 & Ganger#3 for cover fire. While the leader, ganger#1 & heavy#2 advance on one side while juve#1-3 & ganger#3 advances on another side. Ganger#4 goes where the "heat" is worst after deployment.
(as you can tell I only have a very rough idea on how to utilise them lol)

R

Major_Gilbear
09-04-2007, 11:53
Good starting list actually.
I'd get at least one more ganger with a basic weapon, and maybe look at replacing the Heavy Stubber's chain with a backup ranged weapon. Also, bump the leader's gun to a Bolt pistol; his BS4 and the pistol's S4 make this a powerful combo both in shooting and CC.
Your juves might do better with a pistol as their single weapon too, especially if you wind up in a Shootout scenario or similar. Alternatively, you can always brave it for a game or two and get them pistols then.

Whatever you do, try and make sure you have at least five Gangers; you need this number uninjured at the endo fo the game to work all your terretories!

Tactics-wise, I think you'd be better off pairing the CC Gangers and the Juves into one or two teams, and use the two gangers with basic weapons to cover them. The flamer can be accompanied by the third Juve perhaps, as he's got to get close to the enemy afterall.

Tomothy
09-04-2007, 12:45
I see nothing that says I can't drop a member of gang, and what I'm proposing is neither against the spirit of the rules IMHO nor breaks any that are written.
No. Wrong wrong wrong. There are a number of things the rules don't explicitly say aren't allowed. Like tanks. That doesn't mean they then are allowed just cause it doesn't say they aren't allowed.

The way a game works is the rules tell you what you can do, and how to do it. If they don't say you can do it, or do it a certain way, then you can't. I can't suddenly turn up with a tank, and make up my own rules for it. I can't suddenly decide i don't want a guy in my gang and make up my own rules for getting rid of him.


As an Arbitrator, all sorts if things may be (dis)allowed. But that is in the realms of House Rules really.
Also, you don't need to roll foraging one-by one (does anyone even do that?). Just send out only some of your foragers; say half. Since you're likely to come up short on creds (assuming no stash), a few will go unfed. Even if the the ganger to be dropped isn't heavily crippled with serious injuries that affect his strength or toughness (#22 and #24), it won't take more a couple of games of sustained starvation to kill him off. Any other starving would simply be rotated so that none of the others misses more than one feeding.
Yes, it is fiddly and even a bit extreme, but not overly so if you are desperate to get rid of a fighter or two with lots of Serious Injuries and can't roll #11-16.
Yeah sure if you want a few of your gangers turning up with toughness 2 to the next few fights. I personally can accept that as a viable downside for being able to ditch a guy (over 3 games).


Strictly then, isn't this the official answer in the absence of any explicit rule, rather than "the official rule"?
I don't see the difference. The rules don't allow it. This is the official answer telling you that. You don't need rules telling you that you can't do something because there are no rules for it. There are no rules for it because you can't do it.

Red Skullz
09-04-2007, 20:08
Thanks for the input Gilbear :)

Revised list:
Gang Leader w/bolt pistol & chainsword
Heavy#1 w/heavy stubber & autogun
Heavy#2 w/flamer & autopistol
Ganger#1 w/autopistol & club
Ganger#2 w/autopistol & club
Ganger#3 w/autogun
Ganger#4 w/shotgun w/manstoppers
Ganger#5 w/autogun
Juve#1 w/club
Juve#2 w/club
Juve#3 w/club

That leaves 50 credits. Should I use it for some assorted pistols/ccw on the shooty gangers?

R

Tomothy
09-04-2007, 21:30
A hired gun is usually a popular option. The bounty hunter can earn you some extra money/xp if you manage to capture someone. The ratskin helps with the scenario chart and can even find you an extra territory.

Ozorik
10-04-2007, 21:32
No. Wrong wrong wrong. There are a number of things the rules don't explicitly say aren't allowed. Like tanks. That doesn't mean they then are allowed just cause it doesn't say they aren't allowed.

Thats a bad analogy. Dropping heavily crippled members makes perfect sense and it isnt explicitly disallowed, specific examples are even mentioned in the injuries chart. In the above missing fingers example as the ganger member is totally useless there is no logical reason why he must stay in the gang for the reasons given above.

Blindly following any rules is never a bad idea, a little latitude goes a long way.

Red Skullz
10-04-2007, 22:35
Fascinating discussion lads and I do enjoy it buuuut it`s starting to get OT as far as this thread goes doesn`t it ;)

How about you make this a separate thread since it`s about an interesting rules issue :)

R

Tomothy
10-04-2007, 22:37
Thats a bad analogy. Dropping heavily crippled members makes perfect sense and it isnt explicitly disallowed, specific examples are even mentioned in the injuries chart. In the above missing fingers example as the ganger member is totally useless there is no logical reason why he must stay in the gang for the reasons given above.

Blindly following any rules is never a bad idea, a little latitude goes a long way.
A little latitude is fine, but is different in each group. I'm not arguing against house rules. But these are the rules, if you go to a different area then the base rules are the best place to start playing with people. If you go to a competition, the base rules are what you will be playing with.

And if you want to bring realism into Necromunda then there's tons of things that don't make sense. Why can't i pass a gun off to a friend. Why do i have to bring every gang member to fights. Why can't i loot corpses after a game. Why can't i just sling my gun and use two weapons in hth. Because, my friend, these are game mechanics included to make the game better and more fun. A game can't entirely represent reality.

If I wanted to play micromanaging my gang I'd play blood bowl. Retiring guys whenever you want can be abused if you have a powergamer in your group. They'll stay the underdog but with really good advances, and yes it costs them money but more times than not basic weapons are just as good as rare weapons.

Catferret
11-04-2007, 03:28
...but more times than not basic weapons are just as good as rare weapons.

And that is the best piece of advice to give any new Necro player. Don't get obsessed with Bolters and Plasma Weapons. You will find that Autoguns and Pistols are more than sufficient for youir needs. Think about what would be feasibly available and run with it. Cheaper weapons means more guys firing! Quantity actually wins out over quality in Necromunda.

ash_wednesday
11-04-2007, 14:58
If you are really new to necromunda, I'd say get an Orlock gang. They can get shooting skills and fighting skills. Their house weapon list are pretty good too. The best part of having an orlock gang would be the models. You can buy the plastic jungle fighter models and easily convert them into orlocks gangers.

Red Skullz
11-04-2007, 16:26
@ash_wednesday:
Funny thing is that while going through my bitz cabinet I found some old catachans lying around. That combined with little cash at the mo has made my new starting gang into Orlocks -lol-

You can check Ťm out here: http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Underhive/index.php?showtopic=6&st=0&#last

R

Major_Gilbear
11-04-2007, 18:01
Thanks for the input Gilbear :)
You're quite welcome! :D

Sorry for going off topic ealier.
I would seriousuly ignore the House weapons lists and the rules for equipping certain items after one game though (like the "leader" category weapons or respirators).
They add nothing to the game, and without them you will be able to create whatever gang you want without these frustrating and useless restrictions.
Even (especially?) if you are learning the game, it is easier to restrict yourself once you know how effective the various weapons are at a later date if you decide that you like the House weapons lists after all.


That leaves 50 credits. Should I use it for some assorted pistols/ccw on the shooty gangers?
Since this is your first game, wait and see how you get on before you decide to get a Hired Gun.
You have 11 gangers, and have space for one more before you break the current income bracket you're in. The stashed 50 creds is enough for a gnager, and after your first game you can not only afford to buy him, but arm him too.
Alternatively, you could spend it on tech offered from the Trading post after your first game (assuming your Leader isn't injured of course!). Might make a change from later having to pass up cool gear like weapon sights due to lack of funds, which is always frustrating!

And actually, Goliath are a pretty good starting gang. Some Houses are a bit trickier to master (like Cawdor), but Goliath is solid and simple to wield. The plastic Catachans make very good Goliaths too BTW, especially if you have access to Ork leftover weapons and armour plates etc ;) .

One final note:
Catferret and Tomothy make an excelent point about basic weapons often being better than Special weapons. Mostly because their low cost affords numbers and versatility; a powerful combo in Necro.

Red Skullz
11-04-2007, 22:26
Cheers Gilbear, your help is invaluable at this point!

Weaponry:
So then for simpicitys sake I do the following; all house specific weapons are gathered into respective classes leader, heavy, basic, special, ccw and are accessed by all gangs from the get-go right?

My Gang:
It`s Orlocks now as mentioned before, Goliaths at a later turn when I can buy the sets I need to make them :)

So with this Orlock oriented list, what would you exchange IF I can access all weapons as previously mentioned?
- Gang Leader w/chainsword & meltagun
- Heavy#1 w/heavy stubber & lasgun
- Heavy#2 w/flamer & laspistol
- Ganger#1 w/lasgun
- Ganger#2 w/lasgun
- Ganger#3 w/lasgun
- Ganger#4 w/laspistol & club
- Ganger#5 w/laspistol & club
- Juve#1 w/club
- Juve#2 w/club
- Juve#3 w/club
Total 970 credits

Also, would these weapons: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9918/weaponryfl4.png pass as autoguns-/pistols respectively?

R

Tomothy
11-04-2007, 23:09
Cheers Gilbear, your help is invaluable at this point!

Weaponry:
So then for simpicitys sake I do the following; all house specific weapons are gathered into respective classes leader, heavy, basic, special, ccw and are accessed by all gangs from the get-go right?

My Gang:
It`s Orlocks now as mentioned before, Goliaths at a later turn when I can buy the sets I need to make them :)

So with this Orlock oriented list, what would you exchange IF I can access all weapons as previously mentioned?
Well for starters your maths is out, i put you at 1040 creds spent. Drop a juve and you're still 5 creds over.


- Gang Leader w/chainsword & meltagun
Thats quite a hefty load-out. I'd probably drop the chainsword to a sword to save some creds.


- Heavy#1 w/heavy stubber & lasgun
I'd drop the lasgun, get him a backup weapon after your first game.


- Heavy#2 w/flamer & laspistol
Change the laspistol for a sword.


- Ganger#1 w/lasgun[
- Ganger#2 w/lasgun
Change it to a boltgun. You'd be surprised just how much difference 4 strength can make over 3 strength.


- Ganger#3 w/lasgun
- Ganger#4 w/laspistol & club
Change club to a sword.


- Ganger#5 w/laspistol & club
Change the club to a flail.


- Juve#1 w/club
Give him an autopistol. Change the club to a sword.


- Juve#2 w/club
Change the club to a flail and give the juve an autopistol.


- Juve#3 w/club
Eliminated.

Leader (meltagun, sword) - 225
Heavy #1 (heavy stubber) - 180
Heavy #2 (flamer, sword) - 110
Ganger #1 (lasgun) - 75
Ganger #2 (boltgun) - 85
Ganger #3 (lasgun) - 75
Ganger #4 (laspistol, sword) - 75
Ganger #5 (laspistol, flail) - 75
Juve #1 (autopistol, sword) - 50
Juve #2 (autopistol, flail) - 50

My total - 1000.

You can swap the pistols from the juves, to the heavies if you desperately want them to have backup weapons. If you drop from the meltagun to a more traditional boltgun you save 60 creds. 5 creds upgrades a laspistol to a boltpistol. 35 for juve with club leaves you 20 creds. Autogun on heavy w/ stubber or a pistol on either heavy and save 5 creds.

Red Skullz
12-04-2007, 08:54
You`re entirely right Tomothy...I misread the cost of the meltagun, my bad :(

Appreciate your input there, but I had to try and tweak it some and this is what I came up with:

Gang Leader w/plasmapistol & chainsword 170pts
Heavy#1 w/heavy stubber & lasgun 205 pts
Heavy#2 w/flamer & laspistol 115 pts
Ganger#1 w/lasgun 75 pts
Ganger#2 w/bolter 85 pts
Ganger#3 w/shotgun & manstoppers 75 pts
Ganger#4 w/autopistol & sword
Ganger#5 w/autopistol & flail
Juve#1 w/autopistol & sword
Juve#2 w/autopistol & flail

That totals in at 975 credits leaving 25 to spare. Those 25 in addition to some winnings should buy me a ganger after a game or two hopefully :)

R

Tomothy
12-04-2007, 09:11
If you change the lasgun on the heavy stubber heavy to an autopistol/laspistol you can get a juve with a club. If you drop the plasma pistol for a boltpistol you can make the club an autopistol. Or you could drop the bolter down to an autogun. Or a lasgun. 2 lasguns to a gang isn't cheesy.

Whichever way you do it, i would recommend trying to squeeze in an extra juve (hopefully with an autopistol) now. After two games he should be a ganger.

Red Skullz
12-04-2007, 13:25
You`re most likely right there Tomothy but this leaves one less mini to build for starters and I just wanna log some games now so that I can see for my self "IRL" what lacks in the list :)

Otherwise I`ve got a thread going here which will document the making of this gang ;)
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79116

talast,
Red