PDA

View Full Version : Do Skinks seem overpowered?



spacedwarv
05-04-2007, 00:22
Just glancing at my friends Lizardmen book adn they seem way to good for the point cost, discuss.;)

minibob
05-04-2007, 00:37
not really they are toughness 2 if you engage them or shoot them they tend to die easily.

Parka boy
05-04-2007, 00:41
They used to be super hard until skirmishers got nerfed.

Bloodknight
05-04-2007, 08:38
What Parka boy said. They lost a bit with the edition change, but are still quite good. I think the scout upgrade is too cheap, but the normal skinks arenīt that evil anymore.

Frankly
05-04-2007, 10:04
They're still pretty mean.

If you take enough of them they're still going to ruin movement the movement phase for someone and rip through rank and file bonuses.

him_15
05-04-2007, 13:11
They are really annoying if you can't get them in Close Combat. They just move around your flank and try to shoot with their deadly poisoned blowpipe. Big target likes giant hate them most. A unit with 12 skinks can possibly kill a Ginat in 1 or 2 turns...eventhough their Ld is low, combined with the Coldblooded role it's as good as a human..After all, they are very cheap.
I think 6 point for such a unit is little bit overpowered.

Josef Bugman
05-04-2007, 13:18
my mate collects lizardmen(hhe has got 48 of the little blighters). Last Week we did a battle dwarfs, vampire counts and lizardmen vs wood elves and orcs.
the skinks were bloody brilliant

FatOlaf
05-04-2007, 14:13
They're still pretty mean.

If you take enough of them they're still going to ruin movement the movement phase for someone and rip through rank and file bonuses.

How are they going to do that, how do they affect rank bonus?

For my part as a LM player I love the little blighters, it was shame they got nerfed in 7th but with a bit more concentration, they still can run rings around units. And I love hearing my mates moan about how good they are for 6 **** points! :D

Mister Hat
05-04-2007, 15:06
I find they are a unit which punishes poor play/mistakes, on both sides. Now skimishers are march blocked I find it takes a bit of thought to get the most out of skinks, but if your opponent has his head up his bottom then they can be awesomely destructive.

I now only take 30, in 3 units of ten, all with blowpipes. They are my monster killers and march blockers. I also make lots of use of the Krox ability to charge through skinks.

darklordzoul
05-04-2007, 15:43
My Brother takes Units of 10 Scouting skinks with blowpipes and there annoying as hell. but the good thing is they just DIE to every thing.

Avian
05-04-2007, 18:39
The real problem with Skinks is that you can base an army around them, which can easily lead to some damn annoying "battles" if you don't have the right army. Thus I would probably look more into the lizzie Core choices and rethink them somewhat.

For example:

- Saurus Warriors (slightly cheaper)
- Temple Guard (cheaper, no longer 0-1 but only Stubborn if led by a Slann)
- Ranked Skink Cohorts (start with hw/sh for about 4 pts, can have some weapon upgrades)
- Skink Skirmishers (same as now, but don't count towards the min. number of Core units)
- Jungle Swarms (slightly cheaper, no longer 0-1)

Bloodknight
05-04-2007, 19:33
Thatīs a good idea, especially the "doesnīt count against core minimum" part.
Iīd love to see more Saurus warriors on the field, but I believe the skink nerf wasnīt hard enough as people still field annoying 100 skink armies.

Tarian
05-04-2007, 19:39
Skinks never really bothered me, probably due to my playing a T3 army with no monsters. "Oh.... you poisoned an Elf. Grats, really.... proud of you." It's like KBing a spearelf with an Ogre. "Well... he didn't really have a save anyways, so... yeah..."

Faeslayer
05-04-2007, 19:47
Thatīs a good idea, especially the "doesnīt count against core minimum" part.

It would absoultuely have to come with cheap core choices, though (such as cheaper saurus!).

I like the idea of skink cohorts as core in a lustrian list, only because it's another rank-and-file infantry type in an army that has a whopping two such choices at the moment.

EDIT- but this is all wishing in one hand. The fact is that, as it stands now, one can hardly be blamed for using mostly or all Skinks to fill up core slots.

Selsaral
05-04-2007, 20:36
It's salamanders that make me cry, not skinks.

Bloodknight
05-04-2007, 20:51
Yeah, I think that Sauri could easily be one or two points cheaper (as could Chaos Warriors).
Skink cohorts would be cool in my eye, too.

him_15
05-04-2007, 22:08
It's salamanders that make me cry, not skinks.
Agree, Salamanders is certainly overpowered regarding to points. With only 65 points you got 4 fairly well model..And the spouting flames kill..

Watcher666
05-04-2007, 22:25
i think the skermish skinks not counting to core unit count is good, i mean chaos hounds get the same thing.

Faeslayer
05-04-2007, 22:37
i think the skermish skinks not counting to core unit count is good, i mean chaos hounds get the same thing.

...in a list that has (I could be wrong, it's been a while) Marauders, Warriors, Knights, Chariots, Hounds and Marauder horsemen as core. Take a look at the "core" options of the lizard list. It's costly saurus or swarms. You expect every lizard army to have 3+ units of saurus or swarms?

Grymlok
05-04-2007, 22:44
Very interesting ideas Avian, and some of them may well work.

However, the Skinks not counting as core would mean many players with Skink heavy armies may find they have a lot of useless models. This would be due to them having to purchase more Saurus and not having enough spare points to use all of thier Skinks.

Anyway, I like the rest of the ideas ideas.

Avian
05-04-2007, 23:26
However, the Skinks not counting as core would mean many players with Skink heavy armies may find they have a lot of useless models. This would be due to them having to purchase more Saurus and not having enough spare points to use all of thier Skinks.
Judging by the most recent re-realeased army books, GW is hoping to achieve a situation like that with each new revision anyway. ;)

They would probably be all behind an alteration that made veteran Lizzie players go out and buy a lot of new models.

Bloodknight
06-04-2007, 00:07
@Grymlok: well, anybody whoīs at least 3 days into the hobby knows that buying monocultures is an error in the long run. Only powergamers do that and they get punished with every new revision (see: 18 Vyper Eldar army...) and then the whining begins. ;)

Frankly
06-04-2007, 00:26
How are they going to do that, how do they affect rank bonus?

For my part as a LM player I love the little blighters, it was shame they got nerfed in 7th but with a bit more concentration, they still can run rings around units. And I love hearing my mates moan about how good they are for 6 **** points! :D

They affect rank and file bonuses by taking them away in the shooting phase through wounds.

Sitting there on the flank and rear of an opponents unit with 20 odd skinks with B.pipes will ruin his stactic CR bonuses once that unit makes it into unit.

Even against H.Cavalry, over 2 turns you can take down one or two models.

I used to play Southlands and only relied of 3 x 3 kroxigor units for combat, so getting rid of stactic CR bonuses was a major job for my skinks.

Warwolt the skaven
06-04-2007, 00:28
Skinks are good at shooting yes, but even my clanrat slaves bitchslapps the hell out of skinks.

laughingman
06-04-2007, 00:53
because in combat, slaves are better standard that skinks.[dice0]

Frankly
06-04-2007, 03:11
Skinks are good at shooting yes, but even my clanrat slaves bitchslapps the hell out of skinks.


... skinks shouldn't be combat so its a bit of a moot point.:rolleyes:

Talonz
06-04-2007, 03:47
It's salamanders that make me cry, not skinks.


Yeah I hate those things. Walking hellblasters that dont really misfire. And to top it off, if you actually fight them in hand to hand, theyre practically ogres! That was a shock. Way too good.

Skinks arent too bad now, but allowing blowpipes to multishot is absolutely ridiculous. There is no justfication for that at all, and it just magnifies the poisoned attacks effect too much. Take multishot away and I would be happy at least.

Voltaire
06-04-2007, 04:22
Any unit that can be outfaught by Dire Wolves is not overpowered.

Frankly
06-04-2007, 04:30
Any unit that can be outfaught by Dire Wolves is not overpowered.


LoL

Thats funny because I have about 160 odd skinks and 96 dire wolves.

Be nice to play them in a same army....

Voltaire
06-04-2007, 04:31
It would be a nightmare and many people would cry, including yourself when you realise the horror of fielding such an army.

MarcoPollo
06-04-2007, 04:39
I remember when skinks had a 6+ invulnerable save in the 5th ed. When they were ranked up with Krox in the back ranks, that was a sweet unit.

But agreed, salamanders are very nasty.

Talonz
06-04-2007, 07:06
Any unit that can be outfaught by Dire Wolves is not overpowered.


Any 60 pt unit that can drop a 205 pt giant with 6 good die rolls (out of 20) is overpowered.

Heck over 2 turns of firing it *will* kill that giant on average.

Frankly
06-04-2007, 10:01
It would be a nightmare and many people would cry, including yourself when you realise the horror of fielding such an army.

So thats a no to an undead skink armybook then;) .




Jungle swarms = Dead giant

Rider-Of-Kurnous
09-04-2007, 12:35
my mate collects lizardmen(hhe has got 48 of the little blighters). Last Week we did a battle dwarfs, vampire counts and lizardmen vs wood elves and orcs.
the skinks were bloody brilliant

Yes josef bugdude but he shot 26 shots at my wild riders and didnt kill a single one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DesolationAngel
09-04-2007, 13:30
They are against a fair few armies, but thats why so many people use them.

Lizardmen are overpowered generally so it follows that Skinks would be too, avoid using Saurus and its not too difficult to win with a Lizardmen list.

Kyuss
09-04-2007, 18:00
I would love to get Skink Cohorts back, hmmm... cheap rank bonuses!

I take 40 Saurus in my list, but I think blocking skink skirmishers from taking core slots is a bit excessive. A mainstay rule ala Skaven?

Kyuss

EvC
09-04-2007, 18:30
Any unit that can be outfaught by Dire Wolves is not overpowered.

When are Dire Wolves and Skinks ever going to fight? If the Dire Wolves charge then the Skinks are going to do a magic Stand and Shoot reaction and wipe out the Dire Wolves before they even get into range of their posioned weapons...

DeathlessDraich
09-04-2007, 19:02
I think the problem does not lie with the Skinks but with the Poisoned rules.
Some form of immunity for models with higher Toughness could be introduced.

Jonahmaul
09-04-2007, 19:11
Unless it's a very large unit of skinks or very small unit of dire wolves I doubt that skinks would be able to wipe them out by standing & shooting, especially if they have blow pipes but then skinks should be able to avoid combat with most things as they are fairly fast so they can ensure they're far enough away that when fleeing they're unlikely to get caught.

The immunity for tougher things sound like quite a good idea, immunity for things that can regenerate as well would be a good idea.

Cragspyder
09-04-2007, 19:28
How about when they used to be 5.5 points for Str 4 short bows and a 6+ Invulnerable Save? :)

Revlid
09-04-2007, 19:31
Yes josef bugdude but he shot 26 shots at my wild riders and didnt kill a single one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think you used enough exclamation marks here. And far too much punctuation.

To my mind (as a Lizardmen player) Skinks are a bit too good for their points, and the current Cohorts are far too expensive.

EvC
09-04-2007, 19:58
Unless it's a very large unit of skinks or very small unit of dire wolves I doubt that skinks would be able to wipe them out by standing & shooting, especially if they have blow pipes but then skinks should be able to avoid combat with most things as they are fairly fast so they can ensure they're far enough away that when fleeing they're unlikely to get caught.

Let's see, 12 Skinks, 24 shots. That's what, 6+ to hit? You're likely to see at least 4 Dire Wolves dead straight off. An extra 6 here or there isn't that unlikely either...

willibob
09-04-2007, 20:02
i think its all a matter of learning to deal with them *ahem* toughness 2 *ahem* will die easily *ahem*

Jonahmaul
10-04-2007, 00:38
Depending how far away the dire wolves come from EvC, don't you still count the distance for stand and shoot from where the unit starts it charge from or do you shoot as soon as the charging unit comes into range? (haven't got rulebook with me so can't check). If it's the first then chances are the Dire Wolves are out of range & even if they aren't the chances of them being within short range of 6" is very small so they're going to need 7's to hit (long range, shooting twice, stand & shoot) so they can't poison, (although if the skinks have got javelins they will be able to with less shots of course). If it's the second then they're still going to need 7's to hit.

T2 is a problem willibob but the fact they skirmish makes them harder to hit from missile fire (although they do die quite easily when they get hit!). The best thing for taking them out is ratling guns & (ironically) salamanders, ie things that get a decent amount of shots without needing to roll to hit (although mortars and the like are fairly effective at this too). You shouldn't really be getting them into combat unless it's on your terms in which case your probably sacrificing them anyway!

EvC
10-04-2007, 01:15
Depending how far away the dire wolves come from EvC, don't you still count the distance for stand and shoot from where the unit starts it charge from or do you shoot as soon as the charging unit comes into range? (haven't got rulebook with me so can't check). If it's the first then chances are the Dire Wolves are out of range & even if they aren't the chances of them being within short range of 6" is very small so they're going to need 7's to hit (long range, shooting twice, stand & shoot) so they can't poison, (although if the skinks have got javelins they will be able to with less shots of course). If it's the second then they're still going to need 7's to hit.

I had to look up the rules for blowpipes in the army book, as more than one of my opponents has told me that they don't suffer a long range penalty, which they in fact do! So instead the Skinks would stand and shoot with a single shot each, and so probably only poison and kill about two of the Dire Wolves. Due to silly rules, you can use a Stand and Shoot reaction against a charge originating outside your weapon's range, so even if coming from 18" away the Skinks can still stand and shoot.

Still, at least now I know that they're not as deadly as my opponents have sometimes made them out to be... my money'd still be on the Skinks though, as with a typical unit of five, the Wolves would still only kill two Skinks, who would fight back and cause one or two wounds, leading to drawn combat...

NakedFisherman
10-04-2007, 01:20
They need to have their points raised by 1 point or so, I think.

dodicula
10-04-2007, 08:23
The real problem with Skinks is that you can base an army around them, which can easily lead to some damn annoying "battles" if you don't have the right army. Thus I would probably look more into the lizzie Core choices and rethink them somewhat.

For example:

- Saurus Warriors (slightly cheaper)
- Temple Guard (cheaper, no longer 0-1 but only Stubborn if led by a Slann)
- Ranked Skink Cohorts (start with hw/sh for about 4 pts, can have some weapon upgrades)
- Skink Skirmishers (same as now, but don't count towards the min. number of Core units)
- Jungle Swarms (slightly cheaper, no longer 0-1)


Really good ideas Avian, I agree that skinks are not so much overpowered (except against giants) as that the make battles boring, although I do like to torture my Brett playing friend with them where the army is a bunch of skinks some kroxies and a second gen slann with lore of shadows (Bretts failing fear tests against fear-causing skinks are ripe material for mocking the frog eaters).

As for inflitration being too cheap, I'd like to point out that most of the places I play as well as tournaments, we set up terrain by having someone else do it for us, so it often happens that no skinks can infiltrate at all, or at most one unit can do so.

dodicula
10-04-2007, 08:27
Any 60 pt unit that can drop a 205 pt giant with 6 good die rolls (out of 20) is overpowered.

Heck over 2 turns of firing it *will* kill that giant on average.

So don't take giants!

Dwarf bolt thrower can do it cheaper than skinks. Just cause one unit is really great against ONE other unit, doesn't make it overpowered!

Marcel
10-04-2007, 08:39
yeah my friend dan kicks my ass with skinks all the time. rotten little... but seriously, every army has at least one cheap unit that can unload a ton of attacks. i have the tomb swarm, 5 poisoned at. each

Jonahmaul
10-04-2007, 10:38
Us LM players have got that as well Marcel, Lizard Swarms also have poisoned attacks!

EvC - yep, someone has been fibbing to you!! Though I didn't even think of them only shooting once! Suppose it kinda makes sense to be able to shoot at stuff outside your weapon range as you just wait until they're close enough to shoot.

I find that skinks aren't very good at scounting because of being a minumin unit of 10. This makes them quite difficult to hide behind/in stuff & often I find my skinks just setting up in my own deployment zone although after everything else (which isn't much of an advantage for skinks).

EvC
10-04-2007, 12:35
(The same fibber also told me that Skinks had T3 and Slann cause fear (Not due to a special Palanquin either!), and this was after I caught him out trying to tell me that the Master of Stone spell was stronger than it actually is...)

Frankly
10-04-2007, 14:54
They need to have their points raised by 1 point or so, I think.

Actually I don't think so.

skink with javelins stay at its normal price, +1 B.Pipe, +1 shield, +2 scouting.

him_15
10-04-2007, 17:42
Lizardmen army already has point issue...we can't afford to spend even more point on skinks...

EvC
10-04-2007, 18:48
Then take fewer! :p

Jonahmaul
10-04-2007, 21:41
EvC needs to read other army books so he doesnt have to rely on cheating bu**er's say-so (though i bet he doesnt believe what said person claims again!).

I think the shoot twice could be taken away, maybe increase the range to 15" but there doesnt seem to be any logical reason for them to shoot twice (there's only one tube on the blow pipe & surely u can only have one dart in at a time?), maybe leave it for chameleon skinks though who are expert hunters after all.

TKitch
10-04-2007, 22:05
I think everyone's missing a core argument here:

If High Elf Archers can outfight the unit in question in Close combat, than they're NOT overpowered! (Cuz everyone know HE Archers can't even fight their way out of a wet paper bag!)

Shimmergloom
11-04-2007, 00:11
So don't take giants!

Dwarf bolt thrower can do it cheaper than skinks. Just cause one unit is really great against ONE other unit, doesn't make it overpowered!

Yes. 1 dwarf shot that has to roll to hit and wound for 45pts and can do a max of 3 wounds a turn and costs a special slot, is the equivalent to 24 skink poison shots for 60pts that will on average do 4 poisoned wounds a turn + whatever other lucky to wound rolls the skink player makes, while costing a core slot and being able to flit about the battlefield hiding in swamps and lakes.

dodicula
11-04-2007, 08:08
Yes. 1 dwarf shot that has to roll to hit and wound for 45pts and can do a max of 3 wounds a turn and costs a special slot, is the equivalent to 24 skink poison shots for 60pts that will on average do 4 poisoned wounds a turn + whatever other lucky to wound rolls the skink player makes, while costing a core slot and being able to flit about the battlefield hiding in swamps and lakes.

Ah! But the bolt thrower can shoot the giant no matter where it is (range) so it gets an extra turn or two against the giant, plus it is also effective against armored targets (against which skinks are not).

Also keep in mind that gaints have very simple counter measures against skinks they cause terror!

Frankly
11-04-2007, 08:21
Yes. 1 dwarf shot that has to roll to hit and wound for 45pts and can do a max of 3 wounds a turn and costs a special slot, is the equivalent to 24 skink poison shots for 60pts that will on average do 4 poisoned wounds a turn + whatever other lucky to wound rolls the skink player makes, while costing a core slot and being able to flit about the battlefield hiding in swamps and lakes.


Wow!

I hope this is a joke post.

Tkitch, that core argument has been made before. The answer is that skinks are not made for combat, they're made for staying out of combat, so its a moot point to bring up how badly they would can loose combat to anything like elves, gnotlings, gaints etc, etc .... they shouldn't be there.

Jonahmaul
11-04-2007, 13:02
A unit of skinks will take down a giant fairly easily although they do only have a short range, however, they should find it quite easy to stay out of the giants line of sight & pepper it with shots. LM generally laugh at fear or terror casusing things.

Shimmergloom
11-04-2007, 15:37
Yeah I don't understand how the 6" range of terror is the great equalizer to a 60pt cold blooded unit that can shoot at the giant 12" away.

And if your giant is busy chasing down fodder skirmish units then he's not being used right. So no point in trying to say that he will crush the skinks in combat, because A) he'll never be able to engage them in combat unless the LM player wants the skinks in combat and B) The stand and shoot will finish off whatever wounds he has remaining.

And yes the dwarf BT vs skink thing is valid. If you're going to say a BT is also good at killing giants then you have to compare the 2 and look at the facts. And one fact that is not a big deal is how the BT has a longer range. It's still 1 shot a turn and the giant can avoid the stationary BT much better than mobile skinks who can be in range of the giant by turn 2.

Further fluffwise a war machine hurting a giant is much more believeable than a bunch of darts killing him. I don't care if they are poisoned. He's a giant. It's like saying he's poisoned his liver to death by drinking too much captured Imperial beer. Those things would be like little bee stings to him and at the worst make him fall down like he was drunk.

Jonahmaul
11-04-2007, 16:44
That would be brilliant! Giant falls over in random direction after X amount of poisoned attacks againt him!

Atzcapotzalco
12-04-2007, 10:56
Of coarse a giant with no armour, high toughness, and the large target bonus is very much a perfect target, and fairly vulnerable to other low strength missile fire. Against lower toughness troops, the poison counts for less, and with no AS modifier any armour will grant a save. Also if a giant moves 6" and can force a terror check on any unit within 6", a unit with a range of 12" is in certain peril of terror checks, and with a charge range of 12" in equally certain peril of being charged unless it can flank the giant. They only get to stand and shoot if they can pass a fear test, which is by no means certain.

Compared to a dwarf bolt thrower, plus engineer to make them equal points:
The bolt throwers range *is* a very big advantage. It can hit any giant within 48", and all said giant can do is hide behind intervening terrain. It is a lot harder to avoid than a unit of skinks which have to get to within 12" to be able to fire. In range by turn 2? Assuming near perfect deployment of both units and a cooperative giant. A bolt thrower will usually start the game in range.

With 4 T4 crew, and LD9, and the chance of missiles hitting the T7 warmachine, a bolt thrower is a lot harder to get rid of than T2, LD5 skinks, espescially given that the skinks with their short range have to be in proximity to your battle line.

Hitting on3+/2+ and wounding on 3+, that bolt thrower is pretty reliable with its one shot, somewhat moreso than the 6s to hit poison depends on.

As noted, the giant is the perfect target for skinks, and not so much for a bolt thrower which doesn't get to penetrate ranks or ignore armour.

As for being overpowered, a lot of very big weaknesses seem to be being dismissed as irrelevant:
With T2 and LD5, they *are* very fragile, even with the -1 to hit for being skirmishers. They take high casualties from anything which hits them, and even with cold-blooded have a good chance of failing any panic tests. I play southlands lizardmen, and while they don't fail every single leadership test they are very short of being reliable. The "LM don't have to worry about psychology tests due to being cold-blooded" is something of a myth. For LD8 saurus, it holds true, for LD5 skinks, salamanders, or terradons panic is a problem.

Its all very well discounting their lack of combat ability on the grounds that they won't be in combat unless the lizardman player wants it, but last time I checked they didn't have some special rule forbidding them from being charged. They have M6, about fast enough to run away from most ranked up infantry, slower than many other units out there, not nearly enough to infallibly avoid combat, espescially in a unit that has a range of 12"-not exactly a safe distance, even against M4 infantry. Once in combat, they are lucky to win against anything-they have an outnumber bonus, WS2,T2.

12" is a very short range, espescially when combined with BS3 and suffering to-hit penalties for moving and half-range. It isn't just that they have to wait until turn 2 to shoot even a target deployed directly opposite, its also that they rarely hit on anything less than a 6, even against targets in the open. In short, they are terrible shots, and even worse if they incur an additional -1 penalty for multiple shots. That's before taking enemy skirmishers into consideration.

Finally, on a personal note, my own skinks have yet to provide any evidence of being anything more than an expendable distraction or shield for my genuinely dangerous units. Which isn't to say an expendable distraction isn't useful, but I wouldn't ever trust them to inflict more than token casualties on my enemies.