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Freak Ona Leash
31-07-2005, 00:32
Ich habe eine Frage meine Brudes und Schwesteren. What Dwarf Holds are still actually in Dwarf control, if only partially, and which ones have been taken and/or destroyed. I know that Karak Azgal is now held by the Dwarfs after Skalf slew some weird-name dragon. And Karaks Hirn, Norn, Azul, Izor, Kadrin(I think, or did SoC kill it?) And Karaz a Karak and Zhufbar. I know Karak Varn got flooded and destroyed, Karaz Silverspear died somehow along with Karaz Gunbad and Karak Ungor got eaten by the Skaven. Karak Vlag disappeared. But the ones I'm not sure of are Karaks Eight Peaks, Zorn and Dum. I think Karak Dum got trashed at the end of Daemonslayer, right? And Karak Eight Peaks I have seen been said tp be ruled over by the Skaven, the Goblins under Skarsnik or is under the rulership of King Belegaer. Zorn I know nothing about except it is supposedly the first ever Dwarf Hold and is located in the Southlands, but I've only seen it mentioned in the Lizardmen book. Can anyone clairfy this for a poor, background confused Freak? :(

Arnizipal
31-07-2005, 00:51
Short version:
Karag Dum is destroyed as it is effectivly located in the Chaos Wastes now. It's last occupants were rescued by Malakai and the hold was left to Chaos.

Karak Eight Peaks is partially resettled by Belegar. Most of the upper halls are in Dwarf hands again. Unfortunatly the Dwarfs live in a state of constant siege. Skarsnik and his Night Goblins attack the Dwarfs from above, and the Skaven attack them from below.

Karak Zorn is a hold only known in Dwarf legend. IIRC it was the first hold the Dwarfs ever constructed and was partially built by the Ancestor Gods, who then still walked among Dwarfenkind. It was supposedly located to the far south, where the World Edge mountains begin.

I'll try to find dig up Dwarfs: Stone and Steel to get some more info on this.

Master Fulgrim
31-07-2005, 01:27
Ich bin zwar kein Zwergen-Spieler, aber ich will hier auch noch etwas loswerden:
Es heißt "meine Brüder und Schwestern" und nicht "mein Bruders und Schwesters".

Aber für den Anfang ist dein Deutsch garnicht mal so schlecht ;).

Fulgrim

Arnizipal
31-07-2005, 01:29
Long answer:

Active Holds:
Karaz-a-Karak
Zhufbar
Karak Kadrin
Karak Eight Peaks (or Vala-Azrilungol : Queen of the Silver Depths)
Karak Azul
Barak Varr

Karak Hirn
Karak Izor
Karak Norn

Kraka Drak
Kraka Dorden
Kraka Ravnsvake
Kraka Ornsmotek

Lost Holds:
Karak Ungor: Fell to Night Goblins and became Red Eye Mountain. Once the Dwarfs were driven out they tried numerous times to retake the hold. Unfortunalty they were betrayed by the quality of their own defences. They made fifty attempts, but each time were driven back with great losses.

Karak Varn: Fell to the combined efforts of Orcs and Skaven, who then continued to war on each other and finally both abandoned the hold. The ruined hold is now know as Crag Mere.

Karak Azgal: Fell to greenskins and Skaven, who then left the hold as they couldn't find its hidden treasure. Later the dragon Graug the Terrible made its lair in the ruined halls, and it became know as the Dragon Crag. Skalf Dragonslayer slew the dragon while it slept, but had to flee before the Skaven and greenskins that were alerted by the dragon's death-cry. Skalf's decendants set up a small hold near the entrance of the Dragon Crag called Kazad Midghal (Gatehouse Fortress) and allow adventurers to thin the ranks of critters. This way they hope to one day retake the Dragon Crag.

Karak Drazh: Fell to Orcs and became the most powerful Orc fortress in the World's Edge. It is now know as the Black Crag.

Karak Vlag: Disappeard during the Chaos Incursion of 2301. Not a trace remained. It was as if the hold had never existed.

Lost Mines:
Ekrund (Dragonback Mountains): Fell to Orcs.

Mount Gunbad: Fell to Orcs. Briefly reoccupied once but the Dwarfs weren't able to permanently resettle the mines before being driven out again by the Orcs.

Mount Silverspear: Fell to greenskins, who renamed it Mount Grimfang after their warboss.

The Pale Lady
31-07-2005, 11:10
Also, the Hod of Silver Pinnacle fell to the forces of Neferata, Queen of the Vampires, though it is never stated where exactly this hold was/is.

Freak Ona Leash
31-07-2005, 11:46
Ich bin zwar kein Zwergen-Spieler, aber ich will hier auch noch etwas loswerden:
Es heißt "meine Brüder und Schwestern" und nicht "mein Bruders und Schwesters".

Aber für den Anfang ist dein Deutsch garnicht mal so schlecht ;).

Fulgrim
Er, Gesundheit? ;) Thanks for the spelling lesson man. My German is kind of...horrible :D And Arnzipal, I take it that was all from Stone and Steel, right? Freak needs that book so badly... The ones with Kraka in front og their name are Norse holds, correct?

Arnizipal
31-07-2005, 11:54
And Arnzipal, I take it that was all from Stone and Steel, right? Freak needs that book so badly... The ones with Kraka in front og their name are Norse holds, correct? That is was, and that they are.
You'll have to do a little digging to find Dwarfs: Stone and Steel I think, as it's been out of production for about three years now.

Freak Ona Leash
31-07-2005, 12:10
Ah, thank you then. I havent been able to find it at the two Indy stores near my house in the USA, so I doubt that any GW store still has it...eBay, here comes Freak! :evilgrin:

EDIT:Well that was quick. No Stone and Steel on eBay :(

Griefbringer
31-07-2005, 12:20
Ich habe sauerkraut im meine lederhosen!

Good old WD152 has a nice article on dwarf holds - I think most of it if not all got reprinted in the 4th edition dwarf book.

Master Fulgrim
01-08-2005, 02:19
Ich habe sauerkraut im meine lederhosen!

Griefbringer, I totally believe that.

In your case I would now wash my trousers before it starts to smell! ;) :D

Fulgrim

Dargon
01-08-2005, 03:57
Karak Eight Peaks is partially resettled by Belegar. Most of the upper halls are in Dwarf hands again.Slight correction, Belegar and his followers occupy a citadel on the surface - effectively no more of a hold than the Dwarfs have over Karak Azgul :( . Skarsnik and his numerous Night Goblin tribes still hold most of the upper levels of Karak Eight Peaks (The citadel is a seperate building).

Just a thought...

Freak Ona Leash
01-08-2005, 11:05
Ich habe sauerkraut im meine lederhosen!

Good old WD152 has a nice article on dwarf holds - I think most of it if not all got reprinted in the 4th edition dwarf book.
Do they even wear leederhosen in Finland? :p And Dargon, I think the upper halls of Karak Eight Peaks may just be on the surface ;)

Dargon
01-08-2005, 13:56
Dargon, I think the upper halls of Karak Eight Peaks may just be on the surface ;)I didn't mention "Halls", I mentioned "levels" ;) , and unless there's some added fluff I'm not aware of, there's no mention of Belegar or Duregar recapturing any "upper halls", just the Citadel. Arnzipal's post made it sound as if they had recaptured a significant portion of the city, when the reality is they "control only a tiny part of this once great city". Karak Eight Peaks isn't a single building, it's a vast city (the largest and oldest bar Karak Zorn). Occupying a single citadel of all of Karak Eight Peaks is like saying they occupy, say, the Empire State Building of all of New York City. To quote the 4th Edition book, "they are lucky to maintain the most fragile of toe-holds amongst the ruins".

Just a thought...

Freak Ona Leash
01-08-2005, 14:12
I know Karak Eight Peaks is not a single building. One wold imagine that becuase there are eight peaks, the re is more than one building. And I seem to remeber somewhere mentioning Belegaer taking the upper halls of Karak Eight Peaks. Though, that might've just been something Freak dreamed up. It happens :p

Arnizipal
01-08-2005, 16:19
I didn't mention "Halls", I mentioned "levels" ;) , and unless there's some added fluff I'm not aware of, there's no mention of Belegar or Duregar recapturing any "upper halls", just the Citadel.
*Opens the mightiest book in Dwarf Lore "Dwarfs: Stone & Steel"*

"The entire ground level of the hold has been reoccupied, and so have the King's chambers, the Great Hall, the foundries and a few clan halls. "

See, it's a little more that just the ground level (though not much).
And for the record, Karak Eight Peaks might be the eldest hold, but Karaz-a-Karak is larger (it holds 350 000 people vs 280 000 in Karak Eight Peaks).

Dargon
01-08-2005, 23:02
"The entire ground level of the hold has been reoccupied, and so have the King's chambers, the Great Hall, the foundries and a few clan halls. "That would be the added fluff I wasn't aware of :D .

The 4th Edition Dwarf book seems to contradict the above information.

"Although the Dwarfs have managed to reach some of the old mines and recover many valuable treasures, they have never succeeded in expanding their control beyond the citadel."

"the Dwarfs were able to mount several successful expeditions into the mountains where they recovered a number of great treasures and and discovered some of the old tombs of the kings. However, they were still unable to expand their territory any more."

Though from what I've heard, it wouldn't be first time the two books were in direct conflict - Dwarf age as an example.


And for the record, Karak Eight Peaks might be the eldest hold, but Karaz-a-Karak is larger (it holds 350 000 people vs 280 000 in Karak Eight Peaks).An assumption on my part - based on Karak Eight Peaks incorporating eight mountains, and the fact that it originally held the entire Dwarf Population before they spead themselves out across the mountains. Obviously there was a significant population boom in the 2000 years between Karak Eight Peaks founding, and Karaz-A-Karak's founding.

Just a thought...

Arnizipal
02-08-2005, 01:24
An assumption on my part - based on Karak Eight Peaks incorporating eight mountains.
Ah, but you see, Karak Eight Peaks isn't built inside eight mountains, it is surrounded by them. Part of the hold's defence was the sheer impassibility of the snowy peaks around it.

BTW: Karaz-a-Karak is founded 'only' 450 years after Karak Eight Peaks.
2000 years after the founding of Karak Eight Peaks Karaz-a-Karak becomes the capital of the Dwarf empire.

Freak Ona Leash
02-08-2005, 02:47
And I believe Stone and Steel was printed in 2000 or therabouts. Old fluff is superceded by new fluff I believe :)

Dargon
02-08-2005, 05:52
BTW: Karaz-a-Karak is founded 'only' 450 years after Karak Eight Peaks.
2000 years after the founding of Karak Eight Peaks Karaz-a-Karak becomes the capital of the Dwarf empire.Odd, the Warhammer Timeline over at Critical Hit makes no mention of Karaz-A-Karak being built in -4650 IC (though it does mention Karak Azul and Karak Izril/Azgul) even though it uses "Dwarfs: Stone & Steel" as a source. Also both the Dwarf and Elf timelines describe Karaz-A-Karak as a, "newly founded Dwarf stronghold" in -2839 IC. I was always under the impression Karaz-A-Karak was the last of the Dwarf Holds to be built in the Worlds Edge Mountains - built specifically for the purpose of being the Dwarf capital (much like Canberra down here in Australia).

Just a thought...

RobC
02-08-2005, 09:59
I was under the impression that Dwarf history is calculated from the foundation of Karaz-a-Karak, which would suggest it is one of the oldest if not the oldest stronghold.

Oh and if you're wondering about Karak Eight Peaks, remember the name was originally 'Karag' - mountain, rather than Karak - stronghold. The change of name is just another example of background inconsistency, I'm afraid.

Freak Ona Leash
02-08-2005, 11:28
Actually, Karaz is mountain. Karag is volcano. ;)

RobC
02-08-2005, 22:52
Karaz isn't mountain, and my memory might be misleading me but I'm sure Karag once meant mountain. Maybe they changed it when they changed the name of Karag Eight Peaks.

Freak Ona Leash
02-08-2005, 22:59
Karaz means mountain. Its in the back of the 6th ed. Dwarf Army book.

RobC
03-08-2005, 00:48
They've changed it then.

Hmm, checking my 4th edition Dwarf book, they seem to have contradicted the original WD Khazalid article quite a lot. Originally, Karaz meant 'enduring' (I think), hence Karaz a Karak meaning 'Everpeak'.

Bloody GW.

Freak Ona Leash
03-08-2005, 01:29
Now Karak has two meanings. It means enduring(techncially it means stone-like, ie. absract adejective/noun.) and it means hold. So Karaz-a-Karak still means Everpeak.

Dargon
03-08-2005, 03:19
Bloody GW.Just try figuring out when the War of Vengeance/Beard ended and the Elves left the old world, apparently there's a 90 year discrepancy between the Dwarf and Elf accounts. :D :rolleyes:

Here's the dates I have for the founding of the various Holds...

-5000 Vala-Azilungol (Karak Eight Peaks) Founded
-4650 Karak Azul & Karak Izril (Karak Azgul) Founded
-4200 Karak Drahz, Karak Kadrin, Karak Varn & Kraka Drak Founded
-4119 Karak Vlag, Karak Ungor, Zufbar & Barak Varr Founded
-3000 Karaz-A-Karak (Everpeak) Founded as Dwarf Capital (Karaz Ankor)
-1500 Time of Woes
-1362 Karak Izor Founded
-1185 Karak Hirn Founded
-1136 Karak Norn Founded

The Lost Holds
-1500 Karak Ungor falls, becoming Red Eye Mountain
-1499 Karak Varn falls, becoming Cragmere
-1498 The Mines of Ekrund fall
-1457 The mines of Gunbad fall
-1367 Mount Silverspear falls, becoming Mt. Grimfang
-1250 The mines of Valhorn and Budrikhorn fall
-1185 Karak Varn is recaptured, but falls again in -1136
-513 Karak Eight Peaks falls
-469 Karak Azgul falls and Karak Drahz falls, becoming Black Crag
1032 Skalf Dragonslayer gains a small foothold in Karak Azgal
2301 Karak Vlag mysteriously disappears in Chaos expansion
2473 Belegar gains a small foothold in Karak Eight Peaks

Just a thought...

Arnizipal
03-08-2005, 12:29
That's all still the same in D:S&S.
The only thing that's different is that Valaya founded Karaz-a-Karak in -4550 (at the same time that Rionnasc'namishathir - Marienburg, is founded by the High Elves).

Arnizipal
03-08-2005, 12:32
They've changed it then.

Hmm, checking my 4th edition Dwarf book, they seem to have contradicted the original WD Khazalid article quite a lot. Originally, Karaz meant 'enduring' (I think), hence Karaz a Karak meaning 'Everpeak'.

Bloody GW.
For the record:

Karag: Volcano or barren mountain
Karak: Mountain, stronghold
Karaz: Strong, enduring, old

Freak Ona Leash
03-08-2005, 13:04
Nope. The 6th ed. Dwarf book says Karak= Enduring, Stronghold. Karaz=Mountain. Karag=Volcano. Maybe in the new Dwarf book all these language discrepancies will be cleared up. But probally not.

RobC
03-08-2005, 17:26
Most likely not. They've had years to get it right. Why start now?

Cynical, me? Sadly...

Arnizipal
03-08-2005, 18:06
Actually, Dwarfs: Stone and Steel (printed in 2002) supercedes the Dwarf Armybook (printed in 2000), so GW did fix it. :)

Freak Ona Leash
03-08-2005, 18:13
S&S was made by Hogshead dont forget ;) And accordind to Jan 05 WD, the Dwarf Tactics article, it is said at the end Dawi Karak, which is then said to mean Dwarfs Endure. Thusly, Karaz=mountain, Karak=Enduring :D

Sgt John Keel
03-08-2005, 18:36
Nope. The 6th ed. Dwarf book says Karak= Enduring, Stronghold. Karaz=Mountain. Karag=Volcano. Maybe in the new Dwarf book all these language discrepancies will be cleared up. But probally not.

:eyebrows: According to the 4th edition Army Book, (The Dwarf Realms) the word for enduring and mountain is the same, and the other word in Karaz-a-Karak means most, or peak. That is, you have to use a small bit of logic to reach that conclusion. I mean that most and enduring aren't synonyms, so the word for peak and mountain can't be the same either.

In the article on Khazalid, it says as you say, Karak=Enduring, Karaz=Mountain. IMO, the words should be switched because as far as I know, all Karak fortresses are in the mountain, but if I get it entirely my way, the words should be the same.

/Adrian

Freak Ona Leash
03-08-2005, 18:58
Well, remeber, Karak is just the abstract form of mountain. Ie. the thought that something is like a mountian or mountain-like. Mountains endure forever (well ther is erosion and other stuff but you get the point, right?) and Dwarfs want their holds to last forever. But it would make sense if Karakmountain. So, because that makes sense, GW shant do it. :rolleyes:

Arnizipal
03-08-2005, 20:17
S&S was made by Hogshead dont forget ;)
But it has been proofread by the GW design studio :)

Freak Ona Leash
03-08-2005, 21:03
GW design studio? Pft, what have they ever done :rolleyes: ...oh, wait...********

Dargon
03-08-2005, 23:00
Well, remeber, Karak is just the abstract form of mountain. Ie. the thought that something is like a mountian or mountain-like.This is true. Both words do effectively mean the same thing. They both share the same core word "Kar".

The "Az" in Kar-az means the word represents a physical thing - A Mountain.
The "Ak" in Kar-ak means the word represents a concept - Mountain-like, or Enduring.

Given the above, it makes sense that the Dwarf Holds wouldn't become a "Karak" until it has proven it can endure over a long period of time.

Just a thought...

Xisor
03-08-2005, 23:12
Wasn't the suggestion in the atricle in the 6th Ed book that Karaz-a-Karak 'literally' came across as 'big stony/hilly hill', or something to that effect? The point however was the emphasis on just how hill like it was. Almost a bit like 'most hill like hill'. Interchange hill and mountain as you please.

Xisor