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DesertDirge
06-04-2007, 13:44
Could a dwarf army work with No Warmachines and No Anvil???

I want to start a Dwarf army.. but want it a bit different then the run of the mill dwarfs.

Shibby
06-04-2007, 15:07
you made baby jesus cry :cries:

gukal
06-04-2007, 15:24
No. I just don't see how.

The army you propose would yield the advantage to the enemy in: (1) the movement phase; (2) the magic phase; and (3) the shooting phase.

I can't fathom how an army with a M3 characteristic can rely solely on move-or-fire shooting and combats to win.

- Gukal

Belerophon709
06-04-2007, 16:01
I would like to see it happen, but like the AP, I just don't think it's possible. Best bet would be to go for a balanced army. Non-gunline, but still with some shooty elements...

Deftoneus
06-04-2007, 16:03
My roommate tried making an army like that. I told him "Dude, dwarves need their arty...its what well behaved dwarves do!"

Sure enough, defeat after defeat, he incorporated war machines. Only a few at first, but after a while his army started to look like the run-of-the-mill dwarf list.

I commend your attempt to try something different, and by all means, go for it! But as gukal pointed out, you're going to be really hurting during movement and shooting (unless you have hordes of handgunners).

You can limit the amount of war machines, but i don't think you'd be able to eliminate them completely. They really do fill an important role in dwarf armies.

And thats the way I see it!

Watcher666
06-04-2007, 16:22
how do dwarfs yield their advantage in the magic phase...

DesertDirge
06-04-2007, 17:57
I would still have thunderers/crossbows and for magic can have a runelord or something.

gukal
06-04-2007, 19:01
how do dwarfs yield their advantage in the magic phase...

By default ... to everyone. :) They get solid anti-magic, but for about the same cost, every other army gets anti-magic and actual magic on their own turn.

I mentioned it above only because Dwarves use the other phases to make up for this inherent weakness. Therefore, Dwarves cannot merrily disregard the best of their shooting phase as well.

- Gukal

Atzcapotzalco
06-04-2007, 19:17
I vote possible-dwarf infantry is solid in combat, and the heroes supporting them powerful. A lord, with his powerful fighting ability, superior leadership, and royal blood, is both less expensive than a runelord+anvil, and in many ways better support for a combat based army than an immobile runelord prone to either blow himself up or do nothing for one or two turns on a single bad dice roll. I've done OK with combat oriented dwarf armies on occasion, although you are taking a big gamble on your opponent-against another gunline you're in big trouble, but a lot of armies rely on close combat, and against them you aren't too badly off. So far as missile fire goes, thunderers and crossbows are good, and unlike war machines can be more than capable of winning combats-war machine crew may not run so often, but a decent unit of thunderers or crossbow-dwarves can reliably win many fights, espescially against the light units which normally prey on missile unit. Warmachines are no more capable of move-and-fire than they are, and a good degree less reliable.
All things considered, although warmachines are very useful, your infantry has the qualities needed to fight without them, and the anvil while powerful has serious drawbacks.

dominic_carrillo
06-04-2007, 19:28
the beauty of dwarfs is their ability to take thunderers that, when given shields, become rock hard fighters with a quick reform when they're in danger of being charged. how many missle troops are there with a 4+ save in close combat?

Tutore
06-04-2007, 20:30
I think it is viable IF you include at least 1-2 powerful warmachines in 1000 points and 2-3 in 2000! Not a gunline, but still something to shoot.

ZeroTwentythree
06-04-2007, 21:29
Um... you think a non-warmachine army is possible if you include 1-2 or 2-3 warmachines? :eyebrows:


I agree with the assessment above that it is possible to win without warmachines, and for very similar reasons.

Dead Man Walking
06-04-2007, 23:25
I play a non-artillery dwarf army all the time and I pull out wins most of the time. I face very stif competition in my gaming group from veterans.

I field:
2 units of 19 warriors,
--- 1 unit has a BSB with runes for 1 die magic resist, 1 strollaz rune (before first turn all within 12" can move), and the rune where all dwarfs in 6" get 5+ ward save (critical since you need dwarfs to survive).
---The Other has a runesmith with GW and magic resist rune, shield and hand weapon.

2 units of longbeards, 1x19, 1x20.
--- The unit of 19 has a thane with rune of challenge, GW and 1+ armor save. Unit gets immune to fear&terror & rolls break test on 1d6 rune banner. This unit is designed to take down the biggest baddest heavy calv/flyers/character outside of a unit that will be bearing down on you. You make them charge on your terms. Once you survive the charge you counter charge with a second unit in enemies flank.
--- x20 has rune of magic resist and immune to fear and terror (Or +1 combat res) on its banner.

1 unit of 18 hammerers, with a lord on shieldbearers with GW. Take any runes for defence and 1 rune of magic resist. Unit gets +2 combat res magic banner.

1 unit of Miners with re-roll to arrive which are intended to show up on the opposite end of the table, hopefully in turn 3 (Thats the best time to put the pressure on.). if you fail the first roll on round 2 choose not to reroll as you really want it on turn 3.

I set up -usually- like this

Longbeardsx19 Hammerers(lord) Warriors(BSB) Longbeards(x20) Warriors(RS)

Every unit but the minors gets a 1 die magic resist and all within 6 inches of BSB get 5+ ward to magic and shooting. If you place BSB right you should be able to cover 4 units out of 5.

You should be on your opponents by turn 4, if you havent pulled something into combat with your longbeards, beaten then and overran onto your side of the table and charged on your turn in turn 3.

The only army I have had problems with is a Dark Elf all fastcalv/monster riding flying army. Even then I put up a solid fight. This list makes any battle a bloody one and I have had orc players constantly back up to play a game of attrition with me. They didnt want to get into hand to hand with me, thats why I added the Miners.

Marching Dwarfs are a solid list, you just have to tweek it a lot to make it work.

Crazy Harborc
07-04-2007, 00:07
I say try it without the artillery/warmachines. More points for thunderers and or quarrelers. Heck, without the machines sucking points, you may have some points to give some of those shooters shields to go with their armour and handweapons. Maybe....full command as well.;)

Talonz
07-04-2007, 00:23
I'd like to see that army. I liked to play dwarves in mark of chaos but they seem much slower on the tabletop. It may require cooperative opponents though, as high maneuverability or gunline armies will be a real pain for you to come to grips with. Otherwise I think they can work pretty well.

silverstu
07-04-2007, 10:36
Dead Man- thats a really cool looking list- and about as far away as a gunline list as you can get. Think thats the way my army is heading[although i hadn't considered going that far- but i will now]> Lookslike fun to play -cheers for sharing mate.

larabic
07-04-2007, 10:45
Until they give Dwarfs a rare choice that isnt a war machine they will be sitting ducks on a battlefield. Assuming your like me and never use Dogs of war in an army..they are just iky.

Atzcapotzalco
07-04-2007, 14:58
It's annoying that all the rare choices in a dwarf army are war machines, but given that their special and core choices already include some of the best infantry available both for combat and shooting I fail to see how this stops a non-warmachine army from being a viable option.

Bran Dawri
07-04-2007, 15:42
Easily possible, though one or two warmachines (say, a cannon and an organ gun), will make life a lot easier.

Two possibilities exist:
The dwarf Horde.
General: Cheap-ass thane with a great weapon (oathstone optional), *maybe* a battlestandard with Strollaz's rune.
Boatloads of warriors with HA, Sh, FC. Deploy from one end of the field to the other (or in a checkerboard formation, depending on opponent), march forward and grind any opposition under the weight of numbers and general quality of your basic troops.
Variant with "detachments" of 10-strong hammerers, slayers and/or longbeard units can work as well.
Can work reasonably as long as you don't lose your head and keep your units supporting one another.

The elite army:
Dwarf lord with the works in an elite unit.
Battle standard with Strollaz's rune and possibly an oathstone in another elite unit (a unit warriors can work here, too).
Runesmith with antimagic kit and a greatweapon in a third elite unit.
50 points on a dragonslayer are always well-spent, too.
Unit or two of thunderers and/or quarrellers for support, and slayers/miners to guard your flanks/hunt warmachines.
All units that can should have a magic standard to reduce chances of breaking from a charge to as little as possible (slayers and hammerers have it easy here; ironbreakers and longbeards should look into runes of determination and/or ancestor runes).

Requires a lot of finesse to be made to work, but can be devastating and often catches opponents off-guard.

Llew
09-04-2007, 14:07
I had a recent game (1500 points) where I took a non-arty Dwarf army against Wood Elves and slaughtered them. If I'd been smarter, it would have been over more quickly. I had something like 20 Ironbreakers as my core, 2 groups of 20 Warriors flanking them, a small group of Thunderers and a unit of Miners. (Next time, I'd probably get more Miners and get the Steam Drills on them.)

With the Strollaz Rune, plus winning the first turn, I was already halfway across the table before he got his first shot. Also, I took a BSB with the rune that gives a ward save vs. missile fire. It was tough for him to avoid me at that point, and I did a bit better on my armor saves than normal.

So I'd say, yes, a non-arty Dwarf army can win, but you have to make sure you're getting guys in contact within a couple turns and managing to weather whatever missile fire they throw at you.

ZeroTwentythree
09-04-2007, 15:29
I don't get the "need a rare choice" thing. I regularly play my non-dwarf armies without using any rare choices. I think the dwarves have plenty of high quality stuff in the rest of their army without needing to worry about rare stuff.

DesertDirge
09-04-2007, 17:23
well I'm waiting for my army book to come in the mail.
I want my amy to be on the road in the wilderness.. where they will not have the time or resources to pull and set up Artillery. A scouting force near my brewery.

I'll most likely have 2 units of Thunderers and miners(coverted).

a unit of Rangers and warriors.

maybe a unit of Slayers.

..i don't like ironbreakers. :(

Lander
09-04-2007, 17:39
Take Warriors, Slayers, Hammers, Ironbreakers, and Longbeards plus a unit of Miners. Deck every uint with Runic Standerds plus and BSB with the Movement rune, and make all units at least 25 strongs this will be Nasty to tangle with and highly resilent. As far as Heros a Lord, 2 Runesmiths, and a BSB would work well. The army would look cool on the tabletop as well blocks of big dwarf units would be very intemidating.

Talonz
09-04-2007, 17:45
Until they give Dwarfs a rare choice that isnt a war machine they will be sitting ducks on a battlefield. Assuming your like me and never use Dogs of war in an army..they are just iky.


Rare choices has nothing to do with it. It is purely their MV of 3 and lack of cav/flyers (that engage in combat). With enough units and runic magic, this can be countered by a smart dwarf general imo. But still, it can require an opponent willing to engage you as well.

luckysevens
10-04-2007, 10:13
My idea for a slightly different Dwarf army is to take no black powder - still get to keep some decent shooty units without going over the top into a cannon/organ gun/thunderer gun line, which I've found boring to play against and think would be boring to play with, too. Far from finished, so don't know how it's going to work out yet, but there it is.

About the rare choices, what would be wrong with taking a Gyrocopter (or two?)? It's a war machine, sure, but it's hardly artillery, and could be useful to prevent opponents outflanking your advancing force

Jackster
11-04-2007, 06:43
Ive seen one of my friends fielding a Slayer army before... He didnt have any warmachines...

gorenut
11-04-2007, 06:57
Without artillary, it's hard for dwarfs to direct and control where the opponent moves. They just don't have enough fast movers and the opponent will usually out movement you. Artillary usually does 2 things for dwarfs... gives opponents incentive to get close to your slow moving dwarfs and controls the movement of your opponent's fragile yet potentially hard hitting units.

I think you can still make it work if you maybe took the Anvil and Gyrocopters supported by miners

larabic
11-04-2007, 11:32
Ive seen one of my friends fielding a Slayer army before... He didnt have any warmachines...

Well yes a slayer army could do it because they have no worries because under no circumstances will the army or even a unit flee panic etc... i dont think the slayer army is even a legal list any more is it? I know with the dwarf book you can make close to a slayer army but not a complete one.

DesertDirge
11-04-2007, 13:03
hmm.. how could you make an army with a couple slayer units work well?? Would you still need the Anvil? What does the anvil do for you troops? I'm still waiting for my book. :(

larabic
11-04-2007, 13:22
Anvil does 3 thing on a "high" and "low" settings:

low- D6 S4 hits to any unit...movement is halved...units cant fly
High- D3 units suffer the above

low- one unit becomes immune to fear and terror
high- D3 units get the above

Low - 1 unit get an extra move that may be a march or a charge
High- D3 units get to do the above

First and 3rd abilities are the most useful, when ever use an anvil i use a unit of miners so they march on the table then use the anvil to have them charge the same turn in the shooting phase.

Over all the best ability in my opinion is the D6 S4 hits...first off you dont need line of sight to the unit you hit, 2nd of all it slows cavalry down by a bit.