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View Full Version : Are Slann 'over-valued' by GW armybook designers?



Gabacho Mk.II
31-07-2005, 10:50
Rather than entitling this thread with something 'softer,' here goes-


Having gamed with the Lizard army exclusively for the last 2 years, I somewhat find the Slann over valued.

While it does have great magic potential, especially with the older generations, I still find the model lacking given the amount of points invested into the character.




A few weeks back, a friend and I were discussing the merits of a Slann-led army during the course of our campaign, and almost all who overheard our conversation agreed with our opinion:

- Slann rarely make their points back. Period.


Add to this the fact that all good (experienced) players quickly realize that once you pummel the unit the Slann is in (usually Temple Guard, which ALSO cost too much IMO), the game is pretty much over for the Lizards.



[while most might see this thread as another boring Lizardmen issue, I would like to read what some of us think, if possible]

TeddyC
31-07-2005, 12:03
The way i see it is that the slann do cost a lot. Maybe a little too much but not enough to justify not taking them.

Look at other armies lord level wizards.... most ar nothing when compared to the sheer durability of the slann. especially when you consider he can pretty much cast any spell anywhere on the battlefield. Hes got pretty much free reign to do what he wants in the magic phase.

Its always been my view as well that GW dont only go on stats and abilities of an unmodified model for points purposes. Becuase the slann is incredibly flexible in terms of choosing spells and magic items and generations.

I guess what im trying to say is that a 'naked' slann is proably over priced but once you start adding things, yes he becomes a bigger points sink but also a very powerful one.

mageith
31-07-2005, 14:08
- Slann rarely make their points back. Period.

Points back? My Slann rarely dies. If nothing dies, your army only has to make back 60% of its points for a massacre.

If a unit dies or is expected to die it must do better.

Does your Slann die or do you expect it to die? Does your Slann protect other units from dying?

Mage Ith

Megilain
31-07-2005, 14:19
IŽll have to agree with teddy, the slann is expensive but worth his points. He is a great spell caster but thanks to his durability and his equipment options he is also a very hard guy to take down. Unlike other lord level wizard even a lone slann is very difficult to kill with magic or shooting and if you equip him with say warbanner, no fast cavalry unit (except perhaps the new Wild riders) or group of skirmishers can take him out before the help arrives.

Also he is an excellent battlefield leader with his coldblooded ld9 and being a Bsb. Any unit within 12" of a slann has to be severely beaten before it can be expected to brake.

taer
31-07-2005, 19:23
Brass orbs and Frogs don't Mix.

Griefbringer
31-07-2005, 20:00
Brass orbs and Frogs don't Mix.

There are lots of things that do not mix particularly well with Brass orbs.

malisteen
01-08-2005, 00:58
I'd say the frog is worth it, but may be a bit much points concentrated in one place for 2,000 point games. I find them to be more clearly effective in 2,500 or 3,000 point games when the presence of a slaan doesn't completely deprive you of an army, particularly in the case of the older slaan. Temple guard, on the other hand, are usually just an expensive way to make your slaan easy to trap in close combat. Free floating slaan tend to work best, from what I can tell.

Chaos and Evil
01-08-2005, 01:56
I recently fielded a Slann in the middle of 7 Kroxigor during a 3000 points-a-side game...

The Slann and his priests ripped the heart out of my Skaven enemies before they'd even made contact with the Lizard lines.

Plus, who doesn't want the chance to chant 'Ba-ding-ding-ding-ding!' in a really annoying ring-tone alike voice during games!

So yeah, I rarely field Slann, but when I do I back him up with enough priests to supercharge his power dice pool and then he is quite capable of nuking everything he sees, with no risks of dying from miscasts.

One thought is that I find that Temple Guard aren't worth it, I'd rather put my Crazy Frog either in a unit of normal Saurus, or in 3000+ point games, in a unit of Kroxigor.

I'd like to play a large point game with a 'unit' made exclusively of Slann :)

swordquest
01-08-2005, 02:31
Points back? My Slann rarely dies. If nothing dies, your army only has to make back 60% of its points for a massacre.

If a unit dies or is expected to die it must do better.

Does your Slann die or do you expect it to die? Does your Slann protect other units from dying?

Mage IthYou are absolutely correct. If teh slann will not die (which it probably won't) it does not need to make itz points back. You can leave that to the deadly stuff like saurus or skinks.

Griefbringer
01-08-2005, 06:41
I'd like to play a large point game with a 'unit' made exclusively of Slann :)

Play 3rd edition and you can have a whole army made out of Slann! :evilgrin:

I guess the biggest advantage of the Slann in the 6th edition is the humiliation that it will cause to an opponent if you win - who wants to ever admit having lost because enemy had a big fat floating frog!

khorgor
01-08-2005, 06:59
Brass orbs and Frogs don't Mix.

sigged :D

Dooppie
01-08-2005, 08:59
The problem with the slann is: every one takes a saurus olblood because is pretty cheap + very hard charackter.
and offcourse with the spawning of tepok and some dispel scrolls you have very nice magic defence.
So you need no magic... ;)

Putting a slann in a temple guard unit mean you have aleast 30% of your army in one unit.
Agains shooting armies temple guard are easy target.

McGonigle
01-08-2005, 09:57
I find my Slann works very well, despite being over a quater of my army alone, he generally does prove to be a worthy addition.

Firstly when equipped with the stone tablet of 2+ warding, I can sit the guy at the back of the field, in plain sight of my enemies artiery and missile units and just start quoting his many nasty rules how many Voctory points he is worth etc. and suddenly my opponents entire shooting phrase becomes pointed at him. Despite this unholy amount of everything targeted at him, he generally just floats around. This allows my saurus blocks to reach combat unopposed.

Secondly he has the ability to without another mage create 12 power dice. (Involves casting 6 spells a turn) So you can either add in some marks of Tepoc for a decent magic defense and have hero slots left over for Saurus nastyness, or you could use them on Skink priest.
For amount of Power Dice very efficent in number of slots used and points. Together with either Skink priests or a number of marks of Tepoc he can dominate both phrases against most armies.
Thirdly pointing out to your opponent after the game that you beat him, despite spending a quater of your points of a flying frog, priceless

McMullet
01-08-2005, 11:00
Slann rarely make their points back. Period.

They don't kill their points value, but as well as keeping their own points tied up, they stop the rest of your army running away, they force your opponent to use all their dispelling power, and stop all their spells. The Slann might not reclaim its points in terms of kills, but it is well worth the points.

Bubble Ghost
01-08-2005, 11:05
When was the last time a bat swarm killed 55 points worth of troops? Never, that's when. But you'd be an idiot to use that as a reason not to take swarms. It's your whole army that has to "make its points back", not individual models or units.

Chuffy
01-08-2005, 11:14
How do you define 'making it's points back' anyway?

Would a group of skirmishers disrupting enemy march moves but not killing much make back their points?

Or are you just counting pure destructive power?

Kotobuki
01-08-2005, 15:07
Just a comment on things "Making thier points back"... Very rarely in any game that I play does my army "make it's points back." The only way for that to happen would be to wipe the enemy army off the board in its entirety (assuming an equal points value per side.) Makes me wonder how often anyone really does make the points back.

Sai-Lauren
01-08-2005, 16:08
Just a comment on things "Making thier points back"... Very rarely in any game that I play does my army "make it's points back." The only way for that to happen would be to wipe the enemy army off the board in its entirety (assuming an equal points value per side.) Makes me wonder how often anyone really does make the points back.

Exactly. I actually kept track of casualtes scored for each unit for one battle a while back (Dwarves vs WE for those who care). The greatest ratio of casualties caused vs points cost were from the artillery, despite the large unit of hammerers and general, BSB etc.

Think I'm going to have a full artillery army based off that result?


How often do fully loaded chaos knights inflict their cost in casualties? Yet they're still taken.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
01-08-2005, 19:52
Okay. Think outside the box when it comes to justifying points tags.

Does the Slann, in itself, kill it's points value? Only rarely, as you said, what with Magic being toned down and that.

On the other hand, how many spells, on average, does that big floaty toad thingy stop smushing your troops, and how many points does that save you?

How much futile firepower does it attract into it's Regiment a turn? Lets face, they aren't particularly inclined to leg it now are they?

They can have a wide variety of spells at their disposal. May I suggest looking away from those designed to directly spank the enemy, and have a look over those intended to help your own troops. Like the Lore of Light and that.

Drain Magic is well worth taking! A truly naughty spell!

SO overall, they are well worth their points, even if they don't earn them per se.

m1s1n
01-08-2005, 20:32
When was the last time a bat swarm killed 55 points worth of troops? Never, that's when. But you'd be an idiot to use that as a reason not to take swarms. It's your whole army that has to "make its points back", not individual models or units.

Can I get a "Hallelujah!" my brothers (and sisters)!

You need to take the overall effect of the unit on the whole army to really discover its worth. It may seem like a lot of points, but how does it affect your force not to use those points on a Slann (or any other model for that reason)?

GrandReaper
02-08-2005, 03:13
It can depend highly on your army as well. I personally only run one ranked unit of 15 saurus (plus a scar-vet of challenge absorbtion). In this case my Slaans extra abilities (ld9 BSB) were largely wasted as I wasn't starting many fights I couldn't win and he was rather vulnerable as I had not battle line for him to hide behind. In this style army a JSOD Oldblood (or a Carnosaur mounted one) are much better choices.

However, in an army with minimal skinks and 2-3 large ranked saurus units as the game winners the Slann's ability to grant units within 12" near immunity to breaking (losing combat by 4, units still have ~80% chance of holding) combined with the brute force of Saurus WILL win you games.

That's my opinion on "to slann or not to slann"!

Runt Nosher
02-08-2005, 04:50
I beg to differ, my buddy runs the new (relatively) "Lone Slann Tactics" with no large units of saurus, just the US5 Slann with Warbanner and BSB, if u can get a flank charge off that's +3 to combat alone... not many things are actually gonna wound this guy either. The Healing Hand spell of the Light Lore and then stack up on Life (master of wood/stone), Shadow (unseen lurker, steed of shadows on Pirahna Blade Bane Head Scarvet...) and Death just for utter killiness/-3 Ld spells... Stack up on a large unit or two of skinks with some scouts, 2 units of Krox and Terradons, a Stegadon and 3 Sallies and ur enemy is f'd...Trust me my ogres and dark elves face this army regularly, and it doesn't need ranked saurus to win with a Slann BSB.

Gabacho Mk.II
02-08-2005, 08:38
How do you define 'making it's points back' anyway?




Well, unless I run the Slann and attending Temple Guard as a magic missile battery [armed with Plaque of Tepok and Diadem of Power], while standing back the deployment area and casting spells, the Slann doesnt gain its points back throughout the course of the battle. [and even when I do run the Slann as in the example above, the Slann is more of a liability than a strength to the army].

I normally field a 5th gen, with the above mentioned magic items, plus a battle standard. With the Slann, I add a unit of 15 or so TG, and I often find myself pushing forward my Slann and TG, attempting to use this unit as an additional line unit. Often, the TG get shredded [missile/magic fire], and the Slann is soon overwhelmed and killed in H2H.



While I dont profess to be an excellent WFB player [am nowhere close], I equally dont believe that I am a weak player either. For the life of me, I just dont see how to garner enough victory points while the Slann is on the field, than when the Slann isnt attending the battle.


Maybe I should try to keep the Slann out of H2H as much as I can? Maybe I am playing the Slann too aggressively? Maybe I need to rely more on his support role rather than its Stubborn TG attributes?


I dont know how else to play the Slann. I might still be running the Slann as I did in 5th ed... When the H2H abilities of the model were quite devestating and fearful. I dont know.

Gabacho Mk.II
02-08-2005, 08:54
However, in an army with minimal skinks and 2-3 large ranked saurus units as the game winners the Slann's ability to grant units within 12" near immunity to breaking (losing combat by 4, units still have ~80% chance of holding) combined with the brute force of Saurus WILL win you games.



This is precisely my gameplan when I field the Slann in most games. However, I just dont seem to be gaming a strong game with this tactic nowadays.

Given the advent of MSU armies and horde armies, the Lizard armylist has little to offer when up against the two mentioned armies above.


-> Against Horde armies such as Skaven, O&G's, the Slann's presence does little to boost the army and its attendent host. Due to the large point sink that the Slann is, a good 1/3 of the army is spent on the Slann +magic items + TG unit. Just too many eggs in one small basket.

-> Against MSE armies, the Slann does little other than lend its Ld9 out to 12". And again, when 1/3 of your points are spent on a single model with 15 attendents, there is little left to carry out a long battle.




However, when comparing the Slann to Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, the latter seem to more than 'make up their points' in battle after battle.... Why is that?

I would argue that the Slann, while fairly diverse with magic selection and high Ld., plays too much of a support role to the army, while other tough models [GDaemons, etc] not only provide magical support, but are more than able to handle themselves in combat. This, in my opinion, makes the Slann less and less inviting.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-08-2005, 11:32
Add to this the fact that all good (experienced) players quickly realize that once you pummel the unit the Slann is in (usually Temple Guard, which ALSO cost too much IMO), the game is pretty much over for the Lizards.



And thats exactly why Slanns are so, so much better if you don't stick him in a unit. Much more effective(try giving him a Warbanner and you got a great combat support unit too), and much harder to pin down and kill. And it cost fewer points.