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ObiWan
08-04-2007, 05:03
I was playing a game today and something came up with the tree singing spell, I was playing VC vs a friend's WE. I also play WE, and I was quite surprised when he came up with the following:
The basic tree singing spell range to move a wood is 18"; however, my friend says that since the part that says "alternatively..." is in a different paragraph, it's a different spell and there is no range on the second use of the spell, basically giving it the range of all the table since is doesn't say either anything about LOS either. So, is this correct? we played it his way since I had stopped the game for about 10 mins trying to verify somewhere this was right being a WE player myself, but I don't think this is a correct way to use the spell, for me you have the other effect (the hits) but in the same range, so, what's your take on this guys?
I tried searching for something on this but didn't find anything useful.

Jonke
08-04-2007, 05:23
I aggree with your friend. The second paragraph is worded without any reference to the first. Also in the first paragraph the range of the spell is in the same sentence as the effect 'any forest within 18" may...' (not exact quote).

Peace!

Atrahasis
08-04-2007, 11:59
I also agree with your friend.

Artemis
08-04-2007, 18:53
I believe, although I do not have my book, that the wording "alternatively" only points back to the statement about there not being any enemy units in the wood. In other words it means that if there are enemy units in the wood in question it cannot be moved, but you can inflict hits. The range is not changed at all.

So, I agree with you, Mr. Kenobi.

Masque
08-04-2007, 19:00
Could someone quote the entire spell for those of us without access to the Wood Elf Armybook?

DeathlessDraich
09-04-2007, 11:04
I believe, although I do not have my book, that the wording "alternatively" only points back to the statement about there not being any enemy units in the wood. In other words it means that if there are enemy units in the wood in question it cannot be moved, but you can inflict hits. The range is not changed at all.

So, I agree with you, Mr. Kenobi.

The force {of argument} is not very strong with this one.:p

WE Treesing "The spell may be cast on any wood within 18" provided there are no enemy models within it".

This explains how the spell is cast - it is always cast "on a wood"

WE Treesing: "Alternatively the spell can be used to inflict D6 S5 hits on a single enemy unit"

The word cast is absent here.
Obviously "provided there are no enemy models" does not apply any more but what about, "cast on any wood within 18""?

Assuming the spell is cast on the wood then:

It can also be cast:
1) Into combat
2) By the caster in combat in the same wood.

Assuming the spell is cast on the unit then:
It cannot be cast into combat.


In both cases, the enemy is still affected if it is hidden - more than 2" within the wood and no LOS is required.

mightygnoblar
09-04-2007, 11:54
ive always assumed that the secondary effect of the spell is completely separate from the first and that unlimited range is implied by the working "alternatively it may be cast on any enemy unit that is even partially within a wood or similar terrain feature", however im not sure about the cast into combat thing as it doesnt say it can or cant and it is not a magic missile either,
this is a bit off topic but that last post got me wondering could you use tree sing to disengage a wood elf unit from close combat if the enemy unit that they were fighting were not in the wood?

Artemis
09-04-2007, 13:04
ive always assumed that the secondary effect of the spell is completely separate from the first and that unlimited range is implied by the working "alternatively it may be cast on any enemy unit that is even partially within a wood or similar terrain feature", however im not sure about the cast into combat thing as it doesnt say it can or cant and it is not a magic missile either,
this is a bit off topic but that last post got me wondering could you use tree sing to disengage a wood elf unit from close combat if the enemy unit that they were fighting were not in the wood?

I'm still quite convinced that the word "alternatively" only means that if there are enemies in the wood which is within 18", you can nominate one unit to take the hits.

As a spell cannot be cast on a unit engaged in close combat unless it is specified, an enemy unit in close combat cannot be nominated.

mightygnoblar
09-04-2007, 13:19
no i was meaning that in the admittedly rare situation where your unit is fighting in combat within a wood and the enemy unit they are fighting are outside could you tree sing the wood (thereby not acctually targeting the unit in close combat) and move it away taking your models with it and effectively taking them out of close combat, would this be a legal use of the spell?

Artemis
09-04-2007, 14:06
Oh I forgot to adress that, didn't I. ...

Technically, you could treesing the wood, as no enemy unit is within it. However, the close combat situation makes this a bit more complicated. The best solution would be to not allow the normal use of treesinging at all. (As the close combat occurs all over the area that both units occupy, which is basically the same reason why you cannot shoot or cast spells into close combat.) Second best would be to allow for the wood to move, but not the elves that are in close combat.

As to what is correct I must say I don't know.

Chicago Slim
09-04-2007, 15:37
I doubt that you'd ever see a close combat situation that was that pat: Treesinging requires that your unit is entirely inside the woods, and that the enemy is not. That'd mean that your woods has a perfectly straight side, and that your unit was lined up exactly on the edge of that perfectly straight side. Otherwise, some part of your unit will be outside the woods, or else some part of his will be inside it.

Me, I don't make "natural" terrain features (like woods) with straight sides, so I couldn't see how it would come up on my tabletop. The very suggestion of it seems a little beardy, to me, but if it came up in a game, and my opponent was really insistent on it, I'd let it slide (not because I think they're right, but because I don't get too worked up over beardy stuff like this...)


Similarly, if an opponent tried to say that the "damage unit" part of tree-singing had no range, I'd say "You're definitely reading it wrong, but if you feel strongly about it, then go ahead, I don't much care."

DeathlessDraich
09-04-2007, 17:25
however im not sure about the cast into combat thing as it doesnt say it can or cant and it is not a magic missile either,
this is a bit off topic but that last post got me wondering could you use tree sing to disengage a wood elf unit from close combat if the enemy unit that they were fighting were not in the wood?



As a spell cannot be cast on a unit engaged in close combat unless it is specified, an enemy unit in close combat cannot be nominated.

pg 107
"Wizards cannot cast magic at units engaged in combat"
It cannot cast spells at units.

Wizards can cast on woods/ground etc and this could indirectly/accidentally affect unit/s in combat. This is stated in the rules.

That is why I mentioned the importance of the statement for treesinging "cast on any wood within 18" "

In the latter part of the treesinging spell, there is no mention of where or on what the spell is cast on.
If it is still cast on the wood, then the possibility of casting into combat arises.
If it cast on a unit then that possibility is removed.

Both are valid assumptions.

On the question of treesinging out of combat:

The rules do state that a unit enegaged in combat cannot
"move, they must [fight] until one unit is destroyed or flees"

Artemis
10-04-2007, 09:24
The wording "on a single enemy unit" implies that an enemy unit must be singled out be the caster. That means that the unit becomes the target of the spell.

Exceptions from the rule that spells cannot be cast into close combat must be clearly stated. If that is not the case, a unit in close combat may not be affected. That is not an assumption.

Festus
10-04-2007, 09:34
Hi

Exceptions from the rule that spells cannot be cast into close combat must be clearly stated. If that is not the case, a unit in close combat may not be affected. That is not an assumption.Unfortunately, that indeed is an assumption, and a wrong one at that.
Spells may not be generally cast at units in cc, but they may well affect them.

Take the Comet of Cassandora for example. It is a spell, and it can clearly affect units in cc as well.

DDraich is correct in saying that units in CC may be affected by spells, but that spells may not be cast at them - if not explicitly allowed. There is a distinction, and it neither is a fine line.

Festus

Artemis
10-04-2007, 10:44
Which is what I am saying - I read the spell treesinging to mean that it is cast on an enemy unit which is inside a wood. That's the first paragraph in my above post.

Poor wording though. It should read: "If that is not the case, a spell may not be cast at a unit in close combat."

The comet, as you point out, may affect a unit in close combat.