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View Full Version : Dealing with Chariots (without Warchines)



Jackster
08-04-2007, 05:41
I play against armies with Chariots a lot as Empire, but at 1000 point putting 1/10 of your army into something that might blow up the first turn is just unfavourable. (I am also well known for being terrible at guessing range.)
The best I got is probably great swords who has enough armor to brace the charge and return with high strenght attacks and doesnt run as much, or should I bring knights, Inner circles on charge can normally destroy chariots for good.
I do have a good amount of Crossbows and Handguns, but their S4 is not really that great against chariots.

Cragspyder
08-04-2007, 06:34
First of all, are you talking about regular chariots or TK unit chariots? I know that if you shot TK chariots with your handgunners they would get no save at all which seems to me would be a good way to take them out.

If you really don't want to use war machines (and they are horrendously good against chariots), then here are a few suggestions:

A) If there is a way you can get a STR 7 on a character, you could do that and then try to get him into combat. I doubt this is possible for Empire characters at 1000 points though.

B) You can try to charge them yourself. Pistoliers have the same charge range as Chariots (no barding, right?) and they have a decent chance of defeating any chariot without a beastly character on it, especially if they charge in the flank or rear. Knights would pack more punch but I believe they only have a move of 14''. Movement magic (Lore of Shadows) would also be something to try.

C) Use woods or difficult terrain to avoid them, as they have to take wounds if they run through difficult terrain.

D) Stick a big unit of Flagellants opposite them. Chariots are terrible after the first turn, so the Flagellants would have a chance at beating them or at least holding them up for a flank charge.

But really, friend, you're playing Empire, and you have the best solution to chariots in the entire game: a sturdy cannon. I haven't met a Dwarf or Empire player yet who has not taken a cannon in EVERY game, 1000 points or not, and I have not yet had one have a fatal misfire (to my dismay). The chances of a misfire are really quite low, they do happen of course, but its really a small price to pay if you go 4 games with instant chariot killing and then 1 where you blow up.

And just remember to guess 8-9 inches ahead of the chariot, as both the arty dice rolls will add at least 4 to your guess and as many as 20.

Jackster
08-04-2007, 06:49
Both kind of chariots in fact. (O&G, Beastman, DE and so on)
I just can never get the range quite right, but well i'll try...
Guess i ll take out the wizard and have a cannon in my next game.

Franco
08-04-2007, 10:33
I would say not to let the chariot charge you, if it does then it could kill alot of a unit. Don't focus all your tactics on the chariots, unless it is your opponents best thing on the field. Send in a mid classed unit into the side of the chariot and you can easily kill it in one turn!!!

Dead Man Walking
08-04-2007, 12:22
Not everyone has a natural skill at guessing ranges, its a skill you develop. I personally had to practice a lot to get ranges down. You wont get enough chances in game to practice so practice out of game. Guess the length of objects and check them with a ruler. Try this on horizontal objects like boxes, tables, restaurant tables, books, shelves ect. Before long your eye and mind will match up and you will be spot on with every shot.

My favorite shot? My opponent had 2 chaos chariots side by side, they cast a spell to make one move forward. It lined up a perfect shot to take both down. I fired and rolled just right to land on the back corner of one chariot and roll 6 inches into the next chariot, removing 300 points from the game.

:skull:

SkawtheFalconer
08-04-2007, 20:53
One of my favourite moments was when a Chaos Wizard in a chariot miscast, incurred a strength 10 hit, and blew up his own chariot.

Chariots aren't that amazing in my experience. They are fairly slow, and can be fairly easily avoided. Also, if the chariot is on its own, then a ranked up unit should really beat it in combat, even if it charges.

As for range guessing, the way one of my friends who plays Empire got good was by setting up a cannon, and then randomly placing models in front of it at varying distances and trying to hit them. Its a good (if somewhat sad) way of practicing!

Stouty
09-04-2007, 00:27
EDIT: Jewus Christoph I didn't realize I had ranted so much. Sorry guys :(

I shall defend the good old cannon, other armies have their own way to deal with chariots and monsters (hell, dwarfs can manage fairly well without cannon because of static CR and durability) but for empire it really must be a cannon.

I take it you play on a 6X4 board, yes? Right now you may or may not have been brought up with metric, I was "lucky" in that despite my age I've always used feet and inches (gods only know why though, can't estimate in metric without converting my guess from inches).

You have a 12" deployment zone and the difference between the lines in 24" so assuming you set up your cannon on the board edge there should be 36" between you and the front of his deployment zone, give or take a few for the length of the cannon (be sure always to standardize the point from which you measure, makes everyones life easier). However it doesn't even matter how far in you deploy your cannon since you can always measure it on, so you know exactly the distance from the cannon to his deployment zone.

Now remember to take of 6-8 inches off however far it is from your cannon to the target as you have to add that artillary dice to your first guess.

For doing angles life is simple. Just imagine how far away a guess would be in a straight line. Now mark how far that spot is in your head or with a dice if your opponent is cool with that. You should be able to make an arc from that using it as the max radius from the cannon and swinging the point around. Hopefully you'll be seeing roughly how far short a guess is.

When you do make you guess mark down where it would have landed before adding your artillary dice to it. From this first guess and the fact you should know how far your enemy can move in a turn your second guess should be a lot more accurate.

I'd get used to seeing how big 12" looks on the board as well, in my mind I work in units of 12" and just cut them up, seems to work for me. Remember that although you're not allowed to measure the board with anything knowing the length from the tip of your middle finger to your wrist helps somewhat as if you get totally stuck at least you won't forget roughly what 8" or whatever looks like.

Hope some of that has been of help but with all honesty nothing will beat practice. I know for a fact now that my grudge throwers and cannon are far more accurate than my bolt throwers even without runes. Hell in bigger games even if you mess up the guess a bit you may well hit something.

Cannon are one of the big strengths of the empire, with practice they can be quite accurate and even let you try to snipe characters. Certainly in bigger games (2000pts) 1 is almost a requirement for that odd bugger who shows up with a cannon or that hugely expensive unit of knights.

Also if you don't learn to guess then you'll never be able to use the rocket battery or more importantly the mortar. If you ever play against elven infantry you will learn to love those things more than your own mother. 150pts for a pair of them has reduced a 25 man unit of swordmasters to about 1/3 strength before now.

Anyways if you are going to go for non-cannon methods take a unit of 25 swordsmen with 12 halberdiers+shields for a detachment. Strength 4 ain't that bad (though I prefer swordsmen usually as usually they're just there to rid them of ranks). Soak up the pain then hope for a wound from 7 attacks. Should be able to break them that way.

If that's too weak then add a captain with a great weapon and meteoric iron. Cheap wee man and handing out 3 strength 6 attacks he should be able to get a wound in.

What would help a lot is knowing which army is fielding the chariots and what the rest of the army looks like. In a fast khornate army they usually are part of the second punch designed to put a tougher unit out of action where as in a tomb king army they are usually way ahead of the rest of the army thanks to magic.

Jackster
09-04-2007, 03:32
Wrong place for this, but i am incline to make a new post for such a minor change.
So how do you guys think about this

HQ-
Captain- Full-plate, shield, Sword of Might- 75 (join Great Swords)

Core-
20 Swordsmen, full command -145
-10 Halberdiers-50
-10 Handgunners-80
20 Spearmen, full command -125
-10 Halberdiers-50
-10 Crossbowmen- 80

Special-
14 Great Swords full command -180
5 Pistoliers, Outrider with R. Pistol, musician - 114
Great Cannon-100
999

A plenty of fire power plus good CC now! :D
No magic though, i dont really find them much of a trouble. Try to kill their wizard and his unit early.

Franco
09-04-2007, 17:35
If i had said this, then i would have about 10 complaints, but o well. Sounds ok, i wouldn't like to face that with my O&G.

TheWarSmith
09-04-2007, 17:45
well, great swords wouldn't work too well against my army, because i normally nuke them down with green fire(8/20 statistically die).

Try baiting it with swordsmen with halberd or handgun detachments. Most chariots won't be fond of getting that in their face.

Well positioned pistoliers are great too. They move faster(M8 vs. M7 for most chariots), so you can bait them without too much trouble.

Jackster
09-04-2007, 19:00
Its really between having a wizard and a cannon... which one is more useful in this list?
@ Franco: what were you about to say?