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Xavier
31-07-2005, 16:54
So, since there isnt a wood elf tactica, and with the release of the wood elfs now upon us, I feel the time to start one has come.

Lets look at each unit in turn and its strengths and how to use it.

Lets look at each magic item and what combinations they would work well with for certain characters

and Lets look at how to bring all the units together to make a strong army.

Yanos
02-08-2005, 13:03
Well, in an attempt to get this off the ground, I'll kick off with the obvious choice of Glade Guard. They've recently been let loose on my poor unsuspecting Druchii, and therefore.....

I cannot stress how deeply groovy S4 at short range is with a longbow, particularly when moving gives no penalty to shooting :eek: ! Sneaking up on Glade Guard is no option now, unless you're the armour plated sneaky type! OK they've got no save, but dammit at 12 points each you can take enough of these bad boys to soak some casualties! Give 'em a wood to hide in and you can't go wrong in my opinion.

If you're worried about 'em dying, hand out the Blessing of Ariel for instant gratification. I watched in disbelief as my chariot bounced off an unarmoured unit of archers under such circumstances :cries: .

Lord Setra
03-08-2005, 14:08
I will also try and get this started.

I will talk about the wardancers.

These can deal out a serious amount of damage, by using hte storm of blades aspect you are looking at about 16 s4 attacks on the charge from a unit of 5 with a unit champion. Now considering there high Ws this is going to result in a large number of hits maybe around 10-14, the laws of average then state that you should get 5-7 wounds against a t4 opponent, more for a lower toughness, less for a higher,

The only down side I can see with the wardancers is their fragility. For instance in a recent game I lost 2 of the unit of 6 to one unit of skinks shooting at them. Now normally this would be acceptable losses but the small unit size means that their ability to deal out mazimum damage is slightly reduced and they have now lost a third of their numbers.

Overall they are shock troops hard hitting but fragile.

I would rate them at about 7/10

Xavier
03-09-2005, 14:29
Ok, now that the armybook is released. Lets get this going again.

Alex
03-09-2005, 15:21
I have the army book, and I really really like it, I am no Wood Elf player though. Still it would be interesting to discuss their tactics.

Seems to me that the new Wood Elfs would be best used vs. armies with low armour/toughness, and that are dependent on a lot of h-t-h units. With all those skirmishers/scouts you should be able to slow down the enemy considerably. With good bowfire you should be able to oblitterate small support units, and finally, with the flanking power of the glade and wild riders, combined with the hitting power of dryads or wardancers you should be able to break most big fighting units.

So as long as you can manouvere yourself to be able to nicely coordinate charges, and hit the enemys flanks with your rank-negating units, you could win th game.
The key seems to be to be able to pick ones fights.

I am a little more dubious as what to do with enemys that don't feel the need to move, and don't really expose their flanks. I'm thinking of a typical defensive army a la dwarfs. It will be harder winning fights against their units, and shooting them down is really no option either. On the other hand, the dwarf will certainly not be able to hurt a wood elf player either.. I think that is a bit of a boring match up.
Skaven seems like a nasty opponent, although they are low toughness lightly armoured etc. They have 2 assets, first of all, they are as fast as you, and will be harder to get in nice coordinated charges against. The other thing is that a lot of their weapons count as being magical, and so negate forest spirit ward save. Think of a unit of dryads or wild riders being shot up by a ratling gun... ouch!

This was my very basic analysis. ^^
Let's talk about individual units, how about we start with characters?

Eldaron
04-09-2005, 21:20
Well, actually WE aren`t that bad against stationary armies either. Depending on your style of play, you can use Wardancers (especially when using them together with a hero that has the moonstone), Glade Riders, Wild Riders, Warhawk Riders, Waywatchers etc. to get pressure on the opponent.
If played right, WE really are a good army. Combining the maneuvarability of the whole army, their magic (to block the opponent i.e.) and the fact, that you can play a backbone that is really hard to crush can really be a pain for most opponents.

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
04-09-2005, 22:29
If played right, WE really are a good army.

This is true for every army out there.

I believe that the wood elves hardest opponent would be the bretonnians...they are just as fast, and very tough.

The only way i can see the wood elves winning is if you march blocked as many knight units as possible, shoot them all to hell until they came near, and all the while killing their peasents with eternal guard and the like. Once the peasants are dead (really shouldnt take too long) you will have the knights between your close combat units, and your tough units like treemen, and thus will be able to surround them and kill them wherever you wish.

But then again, im not too great at fantasy, thats why i play brettonians :p

Kahadras
05-09-2005, 13:45
I want to know what people think of the idea of Wood Elf characters getting sprites and other small creatures as wargear. Its a nice idea to outfit you Tree Spirit characters with them but some of them seem a little weak to me. What do other people think?
I like the Murder of Spites and the Annoyance of Nelings but others seem to be pointless such as the Muster of Malevolents. So which ones, if any, do you think are worth taking.

Kahadras

Denryuu7777
05-09-2005, 16:19
I played against Brettonia using my Wood Elves

I believe that my account might not be conclusive, as there was alot of terrain on the table, we were using Lustria rules, and I was the better player, but the Elves faired well.

The Strength 4 at short range really helped taek down the nights, as I could reduce their saves, and using scouts, I could take numerous turns of shooting at them. Eventually, some knights failed the saves, and died. Its all a matter of concentrating fire.

And as for dwarves, why wouldn't sitting back and shooting work? Or possibly moving up and shooting? If an army sits and stays put against Wood Elves, eventually you can kill them all with shooting. But make sure the things that can shoot back go first.

Spider
05-09-2005, 17:50
And as for dwarves, why wouldn't sitting back and shooting work? Or possibly moving up and shooting? If an army sits and stays put against Wood Elves, eventually you can kill them all with shooting. But make sure the things that can shoot back go first.


I haven't played against dwarves (this edition and with the new rules), but in the 'old' days my trusty tree huggers never lost to the stunted ones.

Things haven't changed so much (i think) that my experiences from then aren't relevent now.

Spend a turn or two killing his war machine crew (easy enough with all the archery then, perhaps even easier now with even more magical arrow goodness?) and then the game is yours.

Simple. :rolleyes:

The question isn't so much wether the woodies will win against the dwarves, it is more wether either player will actually have a good time.

Time will tell i guess.

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
06-09-2005, 03:05
You can easily outmaneuver the dwarves, and get flank charges, etc, no problem cause youre so maneuverable.

I was thinking of starting a medium sized wood elf force, and i thought that maybe it would be a good idea to do a native american-like army, using no tree beings (like dryads), and the units i use will only have rock weapons, like arrowheads, tomahawks, etc. The only problem is no cavalry-and the wood elf cavalry is awesome...so maybe ill add a restriction, like only 2 mounted units per army, and no flying things.

Maese Crochets
11-09-2005, 20:10
Hi!
I've had an idea. Let's see: a wild rider noble on a great stag and with the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways in a unit of three or so Treekin. What do you think of this? It could be a nasty surprise for your enemy, couldn't it?

shadowprince
11-09-2005, 22:01
First the wood elf army needs to be looked out without a bit of that its new magic gleam in your eyes. don't get me wrong this is a reat well balanced book and my thanks goes out to GW for once. But this is an army that really takes balancing the force to the next level. It really is very hard to run an effective powergameing army with this list, (forest spirit doesn't count). You need to balance your strike troups wardancers and wildriders with you main troups. Glade guard. The purpos ef your very nice assortment of these missle troups and slowing troups is to weaken enemy units enought for you strike teams to swoop in an finish off the. Also with several of the units its hit and run, Warhawk riders dryads, wild riders and wardancers. the key is its ok if 1 of you units brakes and runs becuase they should run. But the enemy shouldn't be able to pursue becuase you should have at least 2 units engaged with the enemy unit the whole time. Somethng very effecive is alter kindred in one side wardancers on the other, or a treeman. I will be posting in depth on all the units later.

Zeb
12-09-2005, 11:55
I have played 7 games with the new list, 3-3-1, winns vs. DE, Orcs ('ard Boys) and O n' G, losses vs. Chaos, Skavern and VC's, and a draw vs Von Carstein.

As I run a mounted list I have to say that you can't be afraid of commiting your units, espesially the Wild Riders. I have done that mistake a couple of times and that is esential to commit and get that first charge to create your breakthrough. And Wild Riders will more or less munch through everything.
To get that first breakthrough I have actually done something that I rarely do... I have created a "Breaker Unit" (8WR with a Noble) this means that I'll get US 18 (if I get into combat unharmed) on the charge and FEAR...
I'm also running two units of Wild Riders, the other unit beeing 6 elfs strong. And it's devestating what the Wild Riders can do...
And when they run around behind enemy lines your opponent will get the message quite fast as well...:rolleyes:
Along with a couple units of Glade Riders that trap (move-get charged-flee) you will more or less always get the charge with the Wild Riders, and sometimes even a doubble charge! :eek:

Right now, when I'm sitting and making a Waterfall Palace Guard list it's hard to ignore the the options of Wild Riders, even if I think that it's hard to get them to fit backround wise.

Reinnon
12-09-2005, 12:41
hi all

i'm starting a WE army, mainly archer based (my list in the army list forum if you want to take a look). or here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11279)

does such a list work? i can see a weakness against ranked up units so i expect i need to do plenty of fleeing.

any help would be great :)

Odin
12-09-2005, 12:57
"I've had an idea. Let's see: a wild rider noble on a great stag and with the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways in a unit of three or so Treekin. What do you think of this? It could be a nasty surprise for your enemy, couldn't it?"

Holy crap! That is mean!

One thing I have been pondering is the best kit for characters, particularly Highborn. There are two great bow combos:

1) Bow of Loren with Arcane Bodkins - will devastate knight units.

2) Hunter's Talon with Hagbane Arrows - take out annoying enemy wizards and characters in units.

Both require 60 points, so need a Highborn. I'm just not sure if they're worth it (potentially they could be a game-winner I think, but could also have little effect).

Another option is to kit your Highborn out for close combat in an Eternal Guard unit (stubborn is great!). I'd opt for a Great Weapon and spending the magic points on stuff to keep him alive - Amaranthine Brooch and the armour which gives you the regenerate Ability seem like good options.

A fast Lord is also tempting, perhaps as a Wild Rider. Does anyone know if they can take Helm of the Hunt? Or is that the armour they can't take?

How do you guys equipe your characters?

Eldaron
12-09-2005, 13:43
Well, II wouldn`t use that combo. It sounds nice to start with, but think about it: Even if your HB gets to shoot every turn at a valuable target he probably won`t pay off. And probably he will not be able to shoot and so many valuable targets all of the game. The idea is nice, but the model is just to cost intensive.

Reinnon
12-09-2005, 13:56
Well, II wouldn`t use that combo. It sounds nice to start with, but think about it: Even if your HB gets to shoot every turn at a valuable target he probably won`t pay off. And probably he will not be able to shoot and so many valuable targets all of the game. The idea is nice, but the model is just to cost intensive.

i disagree.

with a bow of loran + arcane bodkin (and maybe with alter, but i'm waiting on the FAQ on that) you gain 4 (maybe 5) attacks at 30 inches which punches through armour.

say if you fire against a unit of knights of the realm at 24 inches.

your going to be hitting on 2+, wounding on fours and killing (unless they make their ward save) them. Now a maths genius can work out the actually chances (i'm really quite bad at stats)

i really fail to see how that is crap, i would be happy if a chaos lord did that in close combat, and when your highborn does it with little risk to himself and he can still move 9 inches (with alter).

now, unless theres something hidden there that makes him really bad i see it as a very powerful combo.

Zeb
12-09-2005, 14:03
As I see it, it's quite clear that you can't take the helm on a Wild Rider character since the only option is nonmagical or magical light armour (a suit of magical light armour, IIRC). That rules out the helm since it's not a light armour, it's a helm...

And I concur with, Eldacar, that highborn costs a lot... And putting Alter on him makes you lose another great thing, his Ld since he can't be the general.

Lion El Jason
12-09-2005, 15:48
I still think we'll see a lot of Highborn alter characters...

I thought of the BoL&Bodkins first then I though of Alter, Helm of the Hunt, Great Weapon and Amber Pendant.
That makes for a mean character...6 attacks at WS8 Str6 then next turn 5 attacks at WS7 Str6 and still striking first!

Eldaron
12-09-2005, 15:48
The combo isn`t really that good.
First, usually you are going to kill 1,66 knights per round against T3 and 1,11 knights per round against T4. The HB costs just too much to be efficient.
Even with alter he probably can`t shoot all the time at knights and models that are as valuable to the enemy. You can either keep him with your main force to give him some cover from missile fire and magic. But then the whole idea of an alter kindred ist pointless. Even if he is not alter it`s still pointless. keeping him with your main force just misses the point. For what he costs you could easily get more units or a noble and some units which will be much more effective not only against knights but also against he rest of the enemy army.
If he doesn`t stick with the main force it`s also not really useful. The main asset of an alter kindred is that he is one of the mobile units that can threaten flanks (when combined with other units), hunt war machines and lone characters like mages and put pressure on the opponent. The combo isn`t suited better for this than a noble alter.
Against most war machines those shots are wasted (ignoring armour saves isnt`that useful here). Against lone mages a close combat noble alter is better. In threatening flanks etc. he is even worse, since in close combat he is only marginally better than a noble, dies just as easily and costs a lot more.
Also, he just won`t be able to shoot at knights all the time. if you let him go alone, he can only move 9" when he wants to shoot. Most of the time you have to move him more than that to keep him as safe as possible (you don`t want to risk a model costing that much so easily now, will you?), because he is really vulnerable to missile fire and magic, even if you give him an item for protection on top of everything else. So he will probably, in a normal game, have around 3, maximum 4 shooting phases (can well be even less) and that will not be sufficient to make him effective (with some protection he will cost around 270 points).
it`s not that the idea isn`t intriguing or the combo is THAT bad, he is just too point intensive to pay off. Also, a noble alter will perform just as good, while costing far less.

Reinnon
12-09-2005, 16:46
"I've had an idea. Let's see: a wild rider noble on a great stag and with the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways in a unit of three or so Treekin. What do you think of this? It could be a nasty surprise for your enemy, couldn't it?"

Holy crap! That is mean!

One thing I have been pondering is the best kit for characters, particularly Highborn. There are two great bow combos:

1) Bow of Loren with Arcane Bodkins - will devastate knight units.

2) Hunter's Talon with Hagbane Arrows - take out annoying enemy wizards and characters in units.

Both require 60 points, so need a Highborn. I'm just not sure if they're worth it (potentially they could be a game-winner I think, but could also have little effect).

Another option is to kit your Highborn out for close combat in an Eternal Guard unit (stubborn is great!). I'd opt for a Great Weapon and spending the magic points on stuff to keep him alive - Amaranthine Brooch and the armour which gives you the regenerate Ability seem like good options.

A fast Lord is also tempting, perhaps as a Wild Rider. Does anyone know if they can take Helm of the Hunt? Or is that the armour they can't take?

How do you guys equipe your characters?

well, i was planning on taking the bow of loran + arcane bodkin combo but that seems to be a sin.

so, oaken armour + spear of twliight with a shield in an eternal guard unit is my suggestion

Eldaron
12-09-2005, 18:44
No sin, I tried it a couple of times and everyone should see for himseld, just my experience with it.

Zeb
12-09-2005, 19:07
I'm not against an Alter Kindred guy on the feild, but I prefer to have him as a noble since if I take a Highborn I want that Ld10. I'm not sure about the Arcane Bodkins though, I'm probably just going to give him the helm and a GW instead... ;)

Reinnon
12-09-2005, 19:12
i've also been thinking of a noble to lead my wild riders

its a choice of magic items between oaken armour (regen) or spear of twilight (killing blow).

tbh, i can't decide whats worth more on a wild rider kindard noble

Zeb
12-09-2005, 19:32
According to the Q and A at GW the Spear doesn't give you any bonuses as it quite clearly doesn't say counts as a spear.
And I actually prefer the Dawnspear, +1 S (as it says, counts as a spear) on the charge, and an extra attack in the seccond round of close combat (if it comes to that)As well as it gives me the opportunity to get "cloud of flyes" (-1 to hit) if I do an unsaved wound. Something that is really nice, even if the Wild Riders have a decent save (but not a good one)...

But it's just my feelings! ;)

shadowprince
13-09-2005, 04:14
Sometheing very devistating is alter hiborn great weopon combined charge with Wardancers in the side very very potent.

As i said ealier will start putting together unit summaries today i will do the lords.

Highborne. Your basic elf fighter lord, except he has the ability t be much more potenet than a dark elf or high elf lord. He can become very powerful in diuls with the annoyance of nettlings. Also when combined with a great weopon with the amber pendant can also be very effective. THe nice thing about the highborne is e does multiple taks for your amy, makes eternal guard core which should not be overlooked, then you should put your higborne in ths uit for ld10 stubborn uit very potent. Also his basic giving leadership is f corse good as well as helping to pack that extra punch against higher toughness uits in combat. Overall a good choice with many different combinations. Wouldn't go with the alter kindred on him although it looks amazing and will do a lot, limits the range of this versitie character, save the alter for the noble.

Spellweaver. At first glance a basic lv4 wizard. And since wood elf magic is nt offense oriented he might be overlooked by new players. But the abillity to take a mage with a magic bow or arrowsshould not be overlooked, such as giving him hal of doom arrows his a powerful option. Then they gave the wood elf mages the nice option of tree singing which allows for a major reshapeing of the battle field. The problem with the Spellweaver is he will be hard pressed to make his points back directly. I do not suggest giving them the glamorweave kindred, the 5+ ward save sounds nice and might eb worth giving only if yo have the points to spare, afterall your mage shouldn't be in combat anyway, especially with wood elfs.

Treeman Ancient The world beast just pops into your mind doesn't it. I mean who doesn't want a lord with a ward save terror high strenth and toughness attacks wounds a leader ship being able to kill whole units on his own with decent armor save, and wit ranged attacks and a bound spell. Normally you have to pay the hundred points to get to this point. Also the whole fact of this can become the deffinition of a tank lord with annoyance of nettling i really don;t think demon princes or vampire lords are going to be on equal footing in a duel. Then the combined with cluster of radiants and murder of sprites really has the ability to add a lot to the army. But he is the deffinition of a point sink, the nice thing is unlike most point sinks he is only more equal footing with some of the siege weopons bolt thrower namely have to still role a 4 to wound him. But you are going to have to get him into combat quikly their are only soo many cannon shots one tree can take. Also the ability to give him regeneration with magic really makes this guy a whole flank on his own, then when he does loose combat on the first few turns of combat he is stubborn with Ld9 so really shouldn't run. He will aslo have the same effect of a giant as in the mind st of the oppenet of its going down first, which is not neccasarliy a bad thing although you will be putting over 500 victory points in 1 moddle, the rest of your army should have time to really hit him back. In my opinion one very effective stratgy is to make this your main unit, then use every thing else as a support, just make sure to keep away form cannons. These will really shine in over 200 point games as the huge amount of points will not matter as much.

Lion El Jason
13-09-2005, 09:39
For the ancient I think the "Surfing" method is best...

March him up 10" into woods, treesing the woods forwards (His 2 bound spells plus any mages) then he will be able to either strangleroot or be charged in with either 2D6" move spells on turn 2. this keeps down the missile fire he recieves. And if he gets charged thats no big deal really...stand and shoot then they need 6s to hit.
It also get him into terror use range early too. With any other army you'd probably be mad to try this unsupported but WE can have waywatchers, scouts and all already up there, Eagles to move as far as he does and to be fair he'll probably be fine on his own for a bit:)

Maese Crochets
13-09-2005, 21:43
According to the Q and A at GW the Spear doesn't give you any bonuses as it quite clearly doesn't say counts as a spear.


ŋ?
Isn't it a bit stupid not to consider "spear" what is called "Spear of Twilight"?
The spanish edition book says: "this spear gives killing blow blah blah".
Games Workshop diserves some premiums...

amagi
14-09-2005, 04:26
Eldaron accurately points out the drawbacks of the Alter-Highborn with Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins.
However, I think he's exaggerating the extent of them, and overlooking the benefits.
First of all, I'll just point out that if Alter-Highborns do in fact get 5 shots with this combo (and I think they do and should), then they're actually MORE powerful than a Repeating Bolt Thrower's 6 shots against heavily-armoured targets. If my math is right, then statistically the Highborn will cause more casualties per turn against armour save 3+ or 2+, and very slightly less then the Bolt Thrower against 4+. Against T3 units with 5+, 6+, or no armour, the Bolt Thrower will get 2.66 wounds per turn and the Alter will get 2.08. Not that different. And that's assuming no minuses to hit for the BT, whereas the Alter will probably need 2+ to hit most of the time.

(Even if the Alter only gets 4 shots, he's still better than the Bolt Thrower against armour save 2+, and very slightly worse against 3+. By very slightly I mean about 1.6 casualties vs. 1.7 per turn against T3.)
So a M9 mobile Repeating Bolt Thrower that happens to carry a great weapon with 5 attacks? And can still take a 3+ or 4+ ward save item? Obviously not worth it.....

Basically Eldaron is assuming that because this combo isn't well-suited for the role he prefers to use Alter-characters in, it's a bad combo.
But Alter-characters can be used in other roles as well. They don't have to be single-handedly charging around the enemy lines on their own, hunting down lone characters and taking on enemy combat-gods. The role Eldaron describes for them is perfectly valid and very effective, and if this is how you want to use them then he's right--you should make them all-combat. But I don't think it's all they're good for.

If you instead intend for the character to use his great movement to strategically position himself and wait (while laying down Repeating Bolt Thrower fire everywhere) for a good chance to joint-charge with another unit, then the archer combo is actually better than the all-combat model. Against the great majority of basic enemy troops, the archer-Alter will still have much more than enough combat ability to add several CR points and he will still be pretty safe from harm (e.g. give him a great weapon with the Amarinthine Brooch, 3+ ward save against non-magical attacks). If he's designed primarily to attack basic troops so as to boost CR for your other units, then he doesn't need to be invincible. And he's still tough enough and quick enough to go off into the open on some mission if a good opportunity presents itself (a stray mage or war machine, etc.) Many of the combat bonuses the all-combat character would usually get (e.g. strike first, 6's to hit him in a challenge, etc.) simply aren't necessary in this role.

This sniper-Alter is probably especially effective in shooting armies with several scout units, as he can flit around from unit to unit, positioning himself in safety well around the flanks or rear. (He can't join the units, but he can stand next to them for protection.) He'll shoot with the scouts, then charge out from afar at some decisive moment. I think this character is very effective.

[Edit: There's also the matter of points-denial. One time everything in my army was killed except for an Alter-Highborn, a Treeman, and a unit of Waywatchers. The game was still a draw, because so many points were tied up in those three things. In that case it was actually a combat-Alter, but the point is that a sniper-Alter kept in a safe spot on the sidelines would actually be more likely to survive. Keep him safe while shooting and only charge out when it's a sure thing, and you've got almost 300 pts protected with little risk.]

shadowprince
14-09-2005, 05:27
Ok time to do my summary of the heros.

Noble These guys really have three purposes becuase unlike the lord you really can;t tool them to be suppor snipers. First would be combat help in which case their are three good kindred alter, wild rider, and wardancer. Alter first. Well as everone loves the alter idea its pretty easy to see why these are useful, great weopon helm of the hunt and maby murder of sprites or a ward save, personally my favorite tactic is a combined charged by these guys with wardancers should kill plenty, while useing him to nock done some weaker characters, then unleash the murder of sprites for some possible more depths, he is more of an infanry killer unite wise that is, otherwise great mage and warmaching hunter. Wardancer is also nice mainly for getting thos str5 attacks and extra attacks fro him, gets 4+ wardsave for free and this guy is on par with combat power with the alter, except he can pull your wardancers froma support unit to a main combat unit that can now easily kill enough to brake th people on the first turn. Wild rider i more see for the option of giving him the monstone of hidden ways so you get the flank charges and mobilit yof this hard hitting unit even higher. Then theres alwas the battle standard bearer approach, and with the amount of possible stubborn units in an elf army can really give you the staying power you need, not a bad idea but i see this as more effective in combat oriented army's or over 200o points beuas eof the other more appealing options. Finally their is the option of just the weaker highborne approach just incase u decide you want the supper alter lord.

Mage Ok well whats to say bout these its prett much neccasary to have at least 1 mage in the army to carry the scrolls. OR in another case can take some of the other options from the speelwaver mainly hail of doom arrows to give your oppenent the nasty surprise when the mage shoots off a hail of arrows. OR i like the divination orb to give you some help with the high powered magic armys.

Branch wraith Ok i just these, they are in essance a mage ith toughness strenth and fighting powers. But i really don't see these level 1 mages casting spells except in the all forest armies. They are mainly a good way of getting the extra power and 1 or 2 dispel dice into your army without looseing fighting power. Cluster of radiants really should be a must have for low magic armie sif u include these. Also think of them as a Noble with wardancer except for dryads, some equally appealing options and the ability to become a sniper, pagent of shrikes, or adds terror. Not necesarily a must have but ore of a bonus. They act much like a Strigoi vampie unit killer not character kill (mages don't count)

Well thats characters will start thnk up on core later.

Eldaron
14-09-2005, 11:48
Well, in my opinion the shooting HB may be effective but he just as well may not. My whole point is that I am not willing to pay 290 points (as alter) for a model that may or may not be efficient, when I can get more reliable options for those points.

As for the nobles: What has been overlooked so far here is a noble on a great eagle. I tried him now a couple of times and I find him more effective than an alter noble. The main asset is the mobility. Give him a great weapon, light armour, shield, Helm of Hunt and either HoD or some item for protection and he is really great. Sure, he is fragile but WE in general are fragile and used right he is really powerful with the 20" movement. Basically he can be used for the same purposes as alter nobles, but isn`t that restricted in purposes of movement.

About the Battle Standard Bearer: I only find him useful when using Treeman heavy lists (and even then I never use him regularly). Basically the only other unit really benefiting from him is the EG (which I usually don`t use) as, at least as I see it, the only units really capable of taking a charge are Treemen and EG. The other units really depend on picking their fights, combined assault and not being assault but charge themselves (or not getting into close combat at all). A list with an ancient as lord choice and treemen filling the other rare choices could make good use of him though.

Reinnon
14-09-2005, 12:47
Eldaron accurately points out the drawbacks of the Alter-Highborn with Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins.
However, I think he's exaggerating the extent of them, and overlooking the benefits.
First of all, I'll just point out that if Alter-Highborns do in fact get 5 shots with this combo (and I think they do and should), then they're actually MORE powerful than a Repeating Bolt Thrower's 6 shots against heavily-armoured targets. If my math is right, then statistically the Highborn will cause more casualties per turn against armour save 3+ or 2+, and very slightly less then the Bolt Thrower against 4+. Against T3 units with 5+, 6+, or no armour, the Bolt Thrower will get 2.66 wounds per turn and the Alter will get 2.08. Not that different. And that's assuming no minuses to hit for the BT, whereas the Alter will probably need 2+ to hit most of the time.

(Even if the Alter only gets 4 shots, he's still better than the Bolt Thrower against armour save 2+, and very slightly worse against 3+. By very slightly I mean about 1.6 casualties vs. 1.7 per turn against T3.)
So a M9 mobile Repeating Bolt Thrower that happens to carry a great weapon with 5 attacks? And can still take a 3+ or 4+ ward save item? Obviously not worth it.....

Basically Eldaron is assuming that because this combo isn't well-suited for the role he prefers to use Alter-characters in, it's a bad combo.
But Alter-characters can be used in other roles as well. They don't have to be single-handedly charging around the enemy lines on their own, hunting down lone characters and taking on enemy combat-gods. The role Eldaron describes for them is perfectly valid and very effective, and if this is how you want to use them then he's right--you should make them all-combat. But I don't think it's all they're good for.

If you instead intend for the character to use his great movement to strategically position himself and wait (while laying down Repeating Bolt Thrower fire everywhere) for a good chance to joint-charge with another unit, then the archer combo is actually better than the all-combat model. Against the great majority of basic enemy troops, the archer-Alter will still have much more than enough combat ability to add several CR points and he will still be pretty safe from harm (e.g. give him a great weapon with the Amarinthine Brooch, 3+ ward save against non-magical attacks). If he's designed primarily to attack basic troops so as to boost CR for your other units, then he doesn't need to be invincible. And he's still tough enough and quick enough to go off into the open on some mission if a good opportunity presents itself (a stray mage or war machine, etc.) Many of the combat bonuses the all-combat character would usually get (e.g. strike first, 6's to hit him in a challenge, etc.) simply aren't necessary in this role.

This sniper-Alter is probably especially effective in shooting armies with several scout units, as he can flit around from unit to unit, positioning himself in safety well around the flanks or rear. (He can't join the units, but he can stand next to them for protection.) He'll shoot with the scouts, then charge out from afar at some decisive moment. I think this character is very effective.


that my thoughts on the alter-bolt thrower combo.

no lord is useful in all circumstances as each combo has a set strength and weakness.

for example: the alter-bolt thrower combo is great against heavy cav, but not too useful against a horde of goblins (who have the numbers to ignore)

but, the ABT isn't half bad in close combat either with a great weapon, so can still do a supporting close combat if he so desires.

just my 2 cents

amagi
15-09-2005, 02:18
I don't quite understand the argument that the Alter-archer's shooting is unreliable. By that argument a Repeating Bolt Thrower is equally unreliable. Or any shooting unit. Why take Glade Guard or Scouts, since after all they won't always have perfect targets? What if you go up against an army where everything's T4 with lots of armour? Might as well take all combat troops so you know they'll do some damage...

My point is that a shooting army, or any other style of army, will obviously be more effective against some army types than others. The exact same idea applies to the Alter-archer. It doesn't mean he's inherently "unreliable" any more than a shooting-heavy army is unreliable. Besides, one of my points was that even in those few cases where his shooting isn't useful, he's still a very potent combat character and has many other uses. Just don't charge him into enemy super-fighters or big scary monsters. And incidentally, those cases where his shooting isn't useful are few, because, to take one example, shooting can be just as effective against horde armies--that's where the idea of concentrating fire on key targets comes in. He doesn't need to shoot at heavy cavalry to be useful, any more than a Repeating Bolt Thrower does.
Ok, I've said enough about Alter characters. I'll just mention that I definitely agree that all-combat Alter characters can be amazing, and for some playing styles they are much more useful than the archer version. It depends a lot on the context of how it fits with the rest of the army.

amagi
15-09-2005, 02:51
Could someone explain how/if Warhawk Riders are worth their cost? What do you use them for? What kinds of armies do you include them in?

I can see how Hit and Run would be nice, but still I'm somewhat skeptical of their effectiveness.
In many cases Glade Riders can fulfill very similar functions as the WR, with the primary, all-important difference being that GR can negate ranks on a flank or rear charge.

I'll compare GR and WR:
120 pts gets you 3 WR. The same amount of points gets you 5 GR.
So,
GR: 5 wounds, 5 shots, 5 attacks at WS4, S4 and 5 attacks at WS 3, S3 (on a charge)
WR: 6 wounds, 3 shots, 6 attacks at WS4, S4 (on a charge)
Same armour save, same unit strength, and GR are almost as manouverable.

So GR are better in combat and better in shooting, *and* they can NEGATE RANKS. And they can enter woods, which is often very helpful.
The biggest advantages of WR are the 360 degree charge arc and the -1 to shoot at them (and these are pretty significant, I admit).

So in what context are WR better? For march blocking? Taking out war machines? Joint-charging with other units? (A flank charge from them won't be nearly as effective as a GR charge against ranked units, but the WR might be in position to charge a lot more often. And you'll still get the +1 or +2 for flank or rear if all 3 are still alive at the end of the combat round. Maybe they'd be a lot more effective in units of 4, so they'll have to suffer 4 wounds before they stop getting the flank/rear bonus.)

Given that my preferred tactics often involve a lot of focus on flank/rear charging to negate ranks, I'm not sure they'd usually fit in anything smaller than a 3000 pt. army for me. GR slightly edges them out in attractiveness. But I really like the concept, and the models are terrific if you can just convert them into a kneeling position. So someone please show me why they're good.
(Actually, in the course of writing this post I've convinced myself they're a lot better than I'd previously thought...)

shadowprince
15-09-2005, 05:06
Warhawk riders are fankly one of my favorite unit in the game ant multi purpose you send them into the combat you can;t win to wittle down enemies and don;t have to worry about the overrun unlike Glade riders. Also both alter nobles combat etc work their really isn't one that really doesn't, its your play style and preference which is a major part of the wood elfs.

amagi
15-09-2005, 05:58
Something else I forgot about Warhawk Riders vs. Glade Riders--don't fast cavalry still suffer the restriction on not marching within 8"? Flyers do not. The Warhawk Riders stay mobile all the time.

Scactha
15-09-2005, 07:57
I play a balanced list and thinks it all comes together pretty good. Drayds and Glade Guards are a made team as one forces opponent to commit and the other threatens him when he does.

Alter noble with HoD and Helm is amazing for the investment. First turn he destroys a harasser to open up a flank and then he switches into the best force multiplier in the game. 18" charge with 5 x St 6 is mad :)

Eldaron
15-09-2005, 12:11
Well, I actually prefer Warhawk riders over GR. GR ,ay be light cavalry, but they still have movement restrictions which make them, in my opinion, more fragile than WR. Sure, they negate rank bonuses, but I you an still use units like wild riders for this and WR are more flexible. I tested both and usually the GR go down much faster and much more often than the WR (as always, if used properly) and WR are still great for taking out lone mages, war machines etc. plus they usually get to charge in rear, flanks etc. more often than GR.

As for alter with HoD. I prefer giving HoD to a noble on eagle as he can move 20" and still use HoD.

Darmort
15-09-2005, 20:54
The Useage Of Asrai Heros And Heroines.

Lords;

From what I can gather from my Army Book, the Highborn is a diverse choice and is able to do many things.
Personally, I'd give a Highborn either the Waywatcher or Wardancer Kindred, the Bow of Loren or the Blades of Loec, followed by something else, like Glamourweave for Waywatcher, or Merciw's Locus for the Wardancer. There's also the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways, why not toss that on top as well? Makes a unit of teleporters!
That's a personal Opinion, though, for some of you that aren't traditionalists, here's a nasty one;
Wild Rider Kindred, Great Stag, Helm of the Hunt, Dawn Spear, Fimbulwinter Shard, Elynett's Brooch.
Told you you'd like it. For starters, you have a decent Armour Save (4+), a load of attacks, with +1 Strength for Charging, and you can potentially stop a unit from actually HITTING you!
There's more, as well. Yes, more. Make your Highborn Eternal and give him the Rhymer's Harp and put into a unit of 19 Eternal Guard, not only will he and the unit have a 5+ Armour Save and Ward Save, he'll have a nice defence, and giving him the Elynett's Brooch AGAIN. Hey, you could even give those Eternal Guard a Banner, and they're already Stubborn!


Spellweavers are like all Mage Lords to me. I don't use them, and have little experiance in using them, however, looking at the items, I can say a Level Two, with Glamourweave Kindred and a Dispell Scroll, and Wand of Wych Elm, looks to be very effective at Dispelling things. I would even go as far as three Dispells and Divination Orb, and always an Elven Steed. You could convert one of these from the Glade Riders, with the banner pole, you know, ;-)
Giving one the Horn of the Asrai and running with it sounds pretty funny, if you ask me.


Treeman Ancients are big, scary and nasty. Give him the Murder of Spites and the Pageant Of Shrikes, which can seem pointless, but a sniper Spite hitting on 3+ and wounding almost all Mages on 3+ seems worth while to me! Admittedly, you need another of them, or a Hunter's Talon on Noble, to make it worth while, but for 25 Points, it's not really that bad. Although I'd really stay away from Treemen Ancients, simply because they're too expensive to regain their points, if you want a Treeman, go for a normal one. One Leadership difference isn't much, especially when your General is usually going to be nearby (with it's speed, even if he's scouting).


I'll get round to Heros, Core, Special, Rare, Magical Item Combinations, Sample Army List and other things later. Right now, I need to read something.
Darmort

Eldaron
15-09-2005, 22:10
Actually the fact that Treeman Ancients cost many points is a bonus (at least in tourney lists) since it is almost impossible to kill him if he is played carefully. Toss in a second treeman and you have quite some points that are hard to bring down and quite a fair share of you points realtivley save from the oponnent. Construct the rest of your army list around this (small units that are flexible, i.e. 2 glade guard, warhawk riders, wild riders, dispel caddy etc.) and the list can be really effective (if you are accustomed to that style of play)

shadowprince
16-09-2005, 23:39
Ok well for today i will do the core units today.

Glade Guard: I think it is pretty simple to say that these are the true backbone of a wood elf army and should always be taken unless playing an all forest spirit army. But as archers these are probablythe best of of em as the wood elfs should be. These guys are just nuts. They might be the one force of rank and file archers you actually want to move towards the enemy, to just get those str 4 shots in. Personally ilike the idea of 1 f these guys on each flank deployed and max deployment and then as the enemy infantry comes close just back up simple yet effective. I wouldn;t bother upgrading 1 guy up into the captain unless you have some extra poibts sitting around. But do remember these guys are fragile and now have to be in units of ten. IT is fairly easy and i have actually done it to have 2 calvary guys kill the whole ubits in close combat. Aslo as like with most arher no standard or musician.

Scouts: at first glance to some people might consider these the worst of the core choices 17 points for basic scouts and they loose their long bow ability. But for those of you that have ever played against a CoS army you should know how effective 2 or threee units of scouts can be. The first basic idea is you have march blocking at pretty much every where then you just have the ability to shoot at the enemy from all sides. Aslo they are really the only throw away unit that the veru expensive wood elfs have. So whether its the sacrifice to manipulate Korn or goblin fanatics they should be useful and also at least 2 uits almost always taken,

Reinnon
17-09-2005, 09:08
i've got my very first game today with WE thats more then a border patrol.

i'm planning on entering a conflict so we have decided upon 1500 points.

this is the list i'm thinking of using:

Heroes

Spellsinger: divination orb, dispel scroll, lvl 2

Total: 175

Noble (General): Wardancer Kindred, moonstone of hidden way

Total: 140

Core

10 Glade Guard: Musician

Total: 126

10 Glade Guard: Musician

Total: 126

10 Dyrads: Branch Nymph

Total: 132

10 Dyrads: Branch Nymph

Total: 132

5 Glade Riders

Total: 129

Special

10 Wardancers: musician

Total: 187

10 Wardancers: musician

Total: 187

5 Wild Riders: Full Command

Total: 166

Grand Total: 1500

ok, i think its fairly straight forward who goes where.

noble will go in one of the wardancer units and use the moonstone to zip up the table, the wild riders will do a joint charge with the dyrads to break up units and the glade guard will fire bows!

there, imo it looks fairly solid, my brother is going to use high elves....not sure on army comp.

Crazed_monkey
19-09-2005, 18:58
I was thinking on taking an army of wood elves to conflict and trying out a different style, was thinking about going all elves and mainly shooty.

A waywatcher gen and spellsinger for protection.

two units of glade guard (size 10-12)

one-two scouts (size 6-8)

wardancers (not sure on a great size thats also not over the top)

unit of waywatchers and the rest warhawk riders.

Maybe another noble on warhawk. Still to write out a proper list but will post one up shortly.

Peace out

P.S. are champs worth it in shooting units? I don't really think so but meh.

UvulaBob
19-09-2005, 20:40
I have about 40 Glade Guard models to put togteher and I'm wondering if two groups of 20 or four groups of 10 is better? I would think the groups of 10 would be better because they would all get more shots. However, these 10-man units would get pwned in close combat. But, should they be gettinginto close combat? If they end up getting charged they should probably rally. But if they do, then they'll need musicians and/or standard bearers to keep their leadership up, no?

So what seems to be the popular opinion about ideal unit sizes of Glade Guard?

Taffsadar
19-09-2005, 20:56
I have about 40 Glade Guard models to put togteher and I'm wondering if two groups of 20 or four groups of 10 is better? I would think the groups of 10 would be better because they would all get more shots. However, these 10-man units would get pwned in close combat. But, should they be gettinginto close combat? If they end up getting charged they should probably rally. But if they do, then they'll need musicians and/or standard bearers to keep their leadership up, no?

So what seems to be the popular opinion about ideal unit sizes of Glade Guard?

Do you use any eternal guard? Back in the ravening hordes days when archers were 10+ was I often using two ten strong units and one with twenty archers. Units of ten are clearly the best for shooting but a 20 strong unit can be a nice surprise to spring on your opponent. Just reform them when the enemy gets close and you get a +3 rank bonus. It's enough to bounce light cavalry and will really mess your opponent up as any of your skirmishing close combat units will be able to crush any opponent who's not able to hide behind the "non kill" bonuses.

UvulaBob
19-09-2005, 21:43
I'll probably have a unit of Eternal Guard along with a unit of Dryads and Wardancers, but that'd be about it. I suppose the lack of strong combat units might require the two units of 20, eh?

Taffsadar
19-09-2005, 22:25
I'll probably have a unit of Eternal Guard along with a unit of Dryads and Wardancers, but that'd be about it. I suppose the lack of strong combat units might require the two units of 20, eh?

Two would be overdoing it. You really want some smaller more agile archer units, our new shooting rules means that our archers will wheel around alot and try to get to the flanks of the enemy. You can't do this with a 20 strong unit. How many points are you playing? Knowing that you got a unit that can flank charge the unit attacking your archers is essential, they can't stand up to anyone without support so you definatly don't want them 20 strong if you don't know you will be able to support them properly.

UvulaBob
19-09-2005, 23:06
We'll be playing 3000 points eventually. I don't have a problem with four groups of 10. I just wonder if I need to give them standards and musicians. :)

Zeb
20-09-2005, 05:53
Just musicians, only give standards to units that you know can win an engagment.

Hoshi No Koe
20-09-2005, 13:53
Hi,

I'm finally thinking of starting up WHFB, with the new Wood Elves. I'm a 40K player, but I've always said that if the new WE range is good it would get me into playing WHFB again. Either that or if they'd finally make a cathay list.

Anyway, I'm looking at collecting a border patrol list to get me started. However I have no idea how to build a fairly effective WHFB list. I'm not really looking for the most effective list, just something that's fun to play with and to play against.
So, any sample lists and general battle plans would be welcome.

I'd like to go for a mainly mobile and shooty oriented list (I'm a Tau player). Units I would like to field in order of priority are:
Waywatchers
Glade guard scouts
Dryads
Wardancers
Glade riders
Wild riders
Warhawk riders
And any necessary characters

Units I don't especially feel like fielding:
Treeman
Eternal guard

Basically I'd like my army to be made up mostly of skirmishers, that are preferably scouts, to get a very guerilla feeling list.
Now what units do you suggest at 500pts to start out for border patrol which can be built up later to 1K, 1,5K and eventually 2K, and retain the theme?

shadowprince
21-09-2005, 03:33
K here is the next part the rest of the core tactica.

Dryads: Ok these are the little monsters, that for some readson remind me of the movie gremlins don't know why. They are for one both str and toughness four with two attacks and good weoponskill leadership a ward save fear and immune to psychology and for the rock bottom price of 12 points. Wow. But they do have a major flaw which warrants their low points, skirmish, so this meens in combat they will have to have all thier combat resolution from wounds wounds only, so like most the wood elf army cannot win a combat on thier own. but don't fear they still have uses, while not as deadly as the wardancers they a cheaper and core, but both fill virtually the same roll. so you can have more of them in more uits. Their largest advantage though is largly overlooked, they are probabl one of the best missle screens in warhammer they have a ward save so armor doesn't matter skirmish so minus 1 to shoot and bolt throwers won't be very useful as well as the minus one to hi, and toughness for so basic shooting is wounding on a 4 or 5. They are also a screen that can do something rush in to hit for some damage move out to cover your flanks etc. A must have of roughly 1 unit in any elf army.

Eternal Guard: Personally one of my favorite uits in the army. 15 attacks base for a unit of 20, also they will be stubborn becuase you will have to be amoron not to put at least a noble in to get the leadership9 stubborn, and they also have the ability to hit back in combat with 15 attacks and weopon skill five you will be killing things especially with a character in their. Also they are the only reasonable rank and file unit in this army, this makes your flanks more worth while when you got the rank bonuses hopfully outnumber with the damage you should be cuasing and a standard. these really should be taken even though i am seeing few players with these in the list, they are really the only non-support unit in the army(minus wild riders), they are fairly cheap for what the can do. And also the only ELF unit that can take a charge, and win a combat head to head (minus wild riders). Really just a great unit tha tmost people overlook becuase of its not fitting inwith the rest, In that its in a block and a large unit, which is actually an advantage in this army giving the rest of your army of support units somethig to acually support, a failer most lists have out thier.

Glade riders. Well for their points i find them a little expensive for what they can do, and are pretty much jus basic fast calv except for their nice ability to mve through woods. They have the nive ability to take away rank bonuses etc etc, they are basic fast calv with a low armor save so even more fragile. Large ovment makes them able to help most units on the the bored and should always be shooting at close range and in the flank. But i disagree with most people that these are a must have, and i probably won't use them in choice of something else. But are in no meens bad or broken, just not my cup of tea.

Sinew
22-09-2005, 14:04
for their points i find them a little expensive for what they can do, and are pretty much jus basic fast calv except for their nice ability to mve through woods I'd like to expand on Glade Riders because I think they're a good choice for any Wood Elf army. I think their advantage can be summed up in one word: flee. The Wood Elves have a preponderance of troops who are immune to psychology, and therefore a preponderance of troops which cannot flee. Wardancers, Dryads, Treekin, Treemen and Wild Riders can all be caught out by their inability to run from a charge.

Now this is not a huge problem by any means, and good players will use the inherent maneuverability of these troops (except perhaps the heavier Forest Spirits) to avoid getting caught out often by troops that are likely to beat them. However it strikes me that it is definitely worth having a unit that can bait and flee, without resorting to the cheap-in-points-but-takes-up-a-rare-slot eagles. Glade riders do this admirably, better even than warhawks who don't count as fast cavalry, so they can't move on the turn they rally to avoid further pursuit. Anyway warhawks in my army are going to have a lot of calls on their time. Glade riders can move up to things, slow them down and bait units who will never catch them. They can shoot all the while, rally on 9's or less with a musician and are nice and quick. I'm certainly getting them, and I don't think they're at all over priced.

The one thing I wouldn't advise is trying to run down enemy missile troops with them. While I'd happily send them into combat against other light cavalry (if I could get the charge of course) I reckon taking shooting from units of 10 handgunners/xbowmen etc will tax their woeful armour save too far. I'd be much happier shooting such units, and running dryads towards them than sending out my precious glade riders.

Sinew
22-09-2005, 14:34
Do people use kindreds?

I was going to post this in a separate thread but I decided to try here first. Do you guys use kindreds? I know most people don't have an army on the table yet but even in my practice lists I haven't really found a place for them. I'll go through them and list my misgivings, people can tell me if they think I've got it wrong.

Wardancer
Probably the most useable one. It gives your character some magical protection, a ward, some reasonable combat abilities and a close combat weapon good enough to rival a great weapon. But do the Wardancers need a character? A noble with the wardancer kindred and one 25pt sprite/magic item is about the same cost as another unit of wardancers. He could be worthwhile for killing enemy characters if your plan is for the wardancers to take enemy units head on and a Bigboss is spoiling the plan. But I don't rate this as a cost effective tactic, and I rate the Noble's chances of taking on a hard character even less. If you run the character on his own he is just too vulnerable, and is unlikley to be that useful.

Eternal
More or less pointless. It's an equipment option more than a new set of special rules. You don't need the kindred to join the eternal guard or make them stubborn and an additional hand weapon and heavy armour isn't really going to do much for an Elf character.

Alter
Interesting, but I haven't seen a magic item/equipment/sprite combo that makes this guy really that worth it. High movement, and combat prowess without having a steed the enemy can knock easy wounds off is good, and a 360 degree charge arc helps, but it's pricey and you're obligated to be outside a unit. Due to the low toughness and total inability to get a good armour save for wood elf characters this guy seems very vulnerable.

Scout
It can be useful to have the scout rule, but I don't see it ever being cost effective to put a character in a unit of scouts. With their high BS and the ability to ignore movement modifiers Wood Elf characters can shoot well without needing to be close. Being a scout you can't have access to much armour or a great weapon, so it's hard to use it as a springboard into combat. Again I wonder under what circumstances I'd use this.

Wild Rider
Can't argue with the abilities you get for the points. All the benefits of Forest Spirit, plus Talismanic Tattoos and a free spear and light armour for every customer. Also you need it to joing a unit of Forest Spirits. Fiendish plots to use the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways to overcome Treekin's mobility concerns aside, this means joining a unit of Wild Riders. This is all well and good but again I have to ask would you do it? I usually see heavy cavalry unled because the troops fight well on their own. This goes double in my opinion for Wild Riders because they are so good at securing flank charges. No need to waste a hero slot on them.

Waywatcher
I can't help feeling this one is just pants. The shooting rules are soooo not worth the points; 1 shot at S3 with killing blow, and you lose it if you have a magical bow or arrows. No thanks. Being a Forest Stalker is good but again your equipment choices are limited, and I think you're unlikely to be able to reach anything that you couldn't get to if your Noble was riding an eagle.

Glamourweave
Bit of an odd one Glamourweave, it offers good protection for a spellsinger/weaver (though you can't flee from a charge) and allows her to ride a Unicorn if she wishes to spend another 50 odd points. However in my provisional lists I've mostly been trying to keep my wizards away from the more combat oriented areas of the army for fear they'll give up easy wounds and lose me vital combats.

I'd deeply like to be wrong about this, but at present the only one I have much time for is Wardancer, and even then I haven't worked one into a list yet. My heroes are inevitably Branchwraiths, plain spellsingers or Nobles riding Eagles.

Eldaron
22-09-2005, 15:49
Well, the alter actually isn`t that bad (as a noble). Sure, he is fragile, but if you know to play him right he can be a great asset. However, I still prefer a noble on eagle over alter due to higher movement, better maneuvaribilit, practically no movement restrictions and better survivability (plus he is a better carrier of HoD).

The Wardancer kindred with a moonstone can be nice, he certainly gives the wardancers more punch and with at least 2 woods you can certainly put more pressure on the opponent. Not a must, but a good choice anyway.

Eternal. Errr, what for? Really useless.

Scout. Again, what for? To join a unit of scouts? No point in it. To act alone? Better take an alter or mount hm on an eagle. The fact that he can`t use a great weapon doesn`t improve the choice either.

Wild Rider. Errr, here we go again. Rather useless. The only two units worth considering for putting him in are wild riders and treekin. PErsonally I don`t like treekin and I don`t use them and I don`t think that would bet so effective. As for wild riders, unless you don`t think about using a big unit of them as a breaker (which I personally think isn`t really a good way of playing wood elves, in my opinion they just don`t make a good breaker unit) or half-breaker (well, more viable, but not that good either) it is absolutely unnecessary to put a character in the unit.

Waywatcher. Why would anyone want that? The shooting rules may be nice on a unit, but on a character? the deployment rules are nice, but again: for a chracter? He can`t carry armour, shield or great weapon, so in close combat he is useless and he is even more fragile than an alter.

Glamourweave: No idea why to use it, no intention to do.

Taffsadar
22-09-2005, 21:18
I am thinking about combining alter with the bow of loren and the bodkin arrows (no armour saves). 5 BS7 S3 attacks with no armour saves allowed should be quite handy...

Eldaron
22-09-2005, 21:36
Not that discussion again ^^
Far too many points to be effective, since he will not kill that many knights, probably won`t be able to shoot half the time and is really fragile. fro 290 points a bit much.

shadowprince
23-09-2005, 02:49
I'd like to expand on Glade Riders because I think they're a good choice for any Wood Elf army. I think their advantage can be summed up in one word: flee. The Wood Elves have a preponderance of troops who are immune to psychology, and therefore a preponderance of troops which cannot flee. Wardancers, Dryads, Treekin, Treemen and Wild Riders can all be caught out by their inability to run from a charge.

Now this is not a huge problem by any means, and good players will use the inherent maneuverability of these troops (except perhaps the heavier Forest Spirits) to avoid getting caught out often by troops that are likely to beat them. However it strikes me that it is definitely worth having a unit that can bait and flee, without resorting to the cheap-in-points-but-takes-up-a-rare-slot eagles. Glade riders do this admirably, better even than warhawks who don't count as fast cavalry, so they can't move on the turn they rally to avoid further pursuit. Anyway warhawks in my army are going to have a lot of calls on their time. Glade riders can move up to things, slow them down and bait units who will never catch them. They can shoot all the while, rally on 9's or less with a musician and are nice and quick. I'm certainly getting them, and I don't think they're at all over priced.

The one thing I wouldn't advise is trying to run down enemy missile troops with them. While I'd happily send them into combat against other light cavalry (if I could get the charge of course) I reckon taking shooting from units of 10 handgunners/xbowmen etc will tax their woeful armour save too far. I'd be much happier shooting such units, and running dryads towards them than sending out my precious glade riders.\

Brrilliant i completly missed that option thnk you for the input.

Deadseed
23-09-2005, 03:27
I don't think the Eternal Kindreds is ALL bad. I mean, if all you plan on taking is talismans, enchanted items, or spites, then for 10 points you get to fight as if you had a second hand weapon and a 5+ save. If you bought a shield, second hand weapon, and light armour it would be 11 points and you wouldn't be able to fight with both hand weapons and use the shield at the same time.

I have a question though. Which is better for the use of slowing the enemy down, Waywatchers or Great Eagles? Waywatchers can slow the enemy down starting turn 1, which Great Eagles would not be able to do, and can also shoot the enemy while slowing them, maybe widdling them down some, but they also cost a minimum of 120 points for 5 of them instead of 50 for an Eagle. So which is better?

Reinnon
23-09-2005, 06:59
I am thinking about combining alter with the bow of loren and the bodkin arrows (no armour saves). 5 BS7 S3 attacks with no armour saves allowed should be quite handy...

for some, hes good, for others hes crap.

i would just use him and make my own mind up.

amagi
23-09-2005, 07:19
Again, Eldaron is wrong about the Alter/Bow of Loren combo. The content of the rest of your army and the role you intend him to play determines whether the shooting character is effective or whether he needs more protection/combat ability. And he's not any more fragile than a lot of other perfectly viable elf character-types.
...
I half-agree with those who said that the Scout and Waywatcher Kindreds are relatively useless. I think it would be a mistake in most cases to give your general these Kindreds. They'd be too vulnerable and separated from the rest of the army. But I can see how an extra waywatcher hero could be useful (especially in larger, 3000 pt games), simply because of the deployment rules. A waywatcher unit with a hero can do a respectable amount of damage in combat, and this makes them a significant threat to have starting right next to the enemy line. Give him just the Hail of Doom Arrow, and from turn 1 the unit can do a lot of damage--you could wipe out or panic many types of small units in one round of shooting, and be well-positioned to charge/march block the rest. Of course, depending on the enemy army, putting the unit right up front with a 144 pt character just makes them easy pickings. But often they'll actually be in little danger--as they can easily move away if the enemy tries to go after them, and they're tough to shoot at. And the character can always leave the unit in a pinch if it looks like they're screwed.

But in general I agree that the Scout/Waywatcher Kindreds are a lot less useful than they could have been. I think that when they were designing the army they intended sniper/scout characters to be a useful and interesting option--but in large part they failed to acheive this. They put far too many restrictions on the effectiveness of shooting characters, and almost all of the magic item combos for shooting are very unimpressive. Most of them amount to nothing more than a single Strength 3 attack with some often-pointless special ability.
I think they were trying to avoid making these items too powerful, but they went too far in limiting them.
The only really effective combination is the Alter/Bow of Loren one, and as discussed already this is only worth it under certain circumstances.
Even the Hail of Doom Arrow, while nice, doesn't really combine well with other items--there's no good 20 point item to complement it for most Heroes, with the possible exception of the armour that gives -2 to shoot at him in a wood, and there are precious few 70 pt combos for the Lord that justify taking the HoD.

They just didn't give enough consideration to the fact that when you sink so many points into a character and devote his magic item slots to shooting items, this usually precludes using him as an effective combat character as well, since he'll be less protected/deadly. So those shooting attacks better be worth it. And most of the Wood Elf combos aren't.

Sinew
23-09-2005, 08:37
almost all of the magic item combos for shooting are very unimpressive.I agree. I am particularly aware of the comparison between the Bow of Loren and the high elf Dragon Bow (I think that's what it's called) which are the same price and yet the Dragon Bow allows 3 S5 shots at 30" range regardless of who uses it.
Looking at the Wood Elf magic bows arrows the only ones I'm likely to field are the HoD arrow and the Starfire Arrows. Even the SAs are a bit iffy because you're relying on one (admittedly accurate) S3 hit to make them work, unless you fancy the 60pt combo with the BoL.
I wouldn't field any of the magic bows as they are all too ineffective and usually can't be combined with the kindred abilities or arrows, with the exception of the BoL. I'm not buying the 'hochland' bow for one of my characters just so he can chuck S3 hits at opposing characters. If he could bring his Waywatcher killing blow into it...

Lion El Jason
23-09-2005, 11:43
I think all the arrows are useless unless combined with the BoL. Whatever you use one shot simply isnt enough to justify the costs.
And as said the BoL is of dubious use due to points (Though I'll still be trying it)

The HoDA is good but its really your only item so youre including a noble just to use this item (Sure he can have a great weapon aswell or a kindred so he can scout or whatever but I dont know how effective he'll be.)

amagi
23-09-2005, 12:47
You'd think they would have learned their lesson from the Dwarf and Empire Engineers. Characters who contribute nothing but moderate to mediocre shooting abilities are generally not worth it compared to the alternatives.
Apparently they'll be fixing the Engineers, but they've made the same mistake all over again with the WE. And it's much more unforgivable this time, because WE characters should be great snipers.

Moving on, can someone explain to me whether there is any use for the UNICORN???
Apart from theme, I'm not sure I see one. What is the point of making a combat wizard? That's the only apparent use for the thing, because the movement is only 1 better than an Elven Steed, and paying 65 points for the magic resistance doesn't seem worth it, especially given the disadvantage of making yourself more of a target.

And you're not even adding much combat ability--it's just 2 attacks that are only effective on a charge. The Wizard's 1 measly attack is hardly worth mentioning.

The best use of it would probably be to put the wizard in a unit of Wild Riders. That teleport-unit item would be a good choice then of course. But you'll also almost certainly have to spend much of the rest of your magic item points on protection items, since you've put a lot of points into the wizard and he's about as resilient as a Gnoblar. And he can still be shot at even in the unit due to his larger base size.

The best combo I can think of for this use would be (for a Lord) A Murder of Spites (D6 S2 poisoned attacks in combat), Amaranthine Brooch (3+ Ward against non-magical attacks), and Moonstone of the Hidden Ways (or if you don't care about teleporting, either one of the Arcane Items or the Hail of Doom Arrow).

This is about the only remotely cost-effective use I can see. Maybe something similar for a Hero wizard in small games--1000 pts or so?

[EDIT: Just as with the Warhawk Riders, now that I've written all this down it seems better than I'd previously thought. But I still think it's only worth it if you use the specific Lord combo I wrote above and put it in a WR unit. And only if you want a magic heavy army--it saves the extra points for a combat character. I think you'd have to take an extra Level 2 wizard to make it worth it. Give the Hero Calaingor's Stave so he can use the Lord's power dice to cast treesinging multiple times. Of course, at 430 pts the Lord costs more than a Treeman Ancient, so this is still highly dubious.]

I really think they should have made the Unicorn affect the wizard's magic abilities in addition to the impale/combat attacks. It could be as simple as a +1 to cast or an extra Power/Dispel dice, or something more interesting like, for example, access to a new spell--or whatever. That would've made more sense.

Eldaron
23-09-2005, 13:39
The problem with shooty characters and lists too focused on shooting is: Usually battles are not won through shooting alone. There are only very, very few exceptions and WE don`t count among them. You can soften up the enemy and get a hang on some threads or force the enemy forward, yes (and that definitely helps a lot) but you just won`t win a battle through shooting alone.
Thus getting characters just designed for shooting is rather pointless since what you have on the unit side is enough to fulfill that role and just blocking a character slot to make this a bit more effective when you can create far more useful combos is a waste of points. Take i.e. the HB with BoL/Magic Arrows (usually bodkin). Sounds nice, yes. He may do okay. but you pay that much points for Str3 Shots. So what will he be shooting at? War machines? Waste of points, they usually don`t have good armour saves. Light cavalry? just the same. Infantry? Usually the same. So the only option are lone chracters (and no opponent worth mentioning will give you that option) and heavy cavalry. And do you really think you will be able to shoot at those the whole game? Probably not. Sure, you could shoot at those targets I mentioned above. But then, you could get enough other units like waywatchers, scouts etc. who can do that just as well or even better (and that for less points) and are usually more flexible and more expendable. So that so good combo ends up just HAVING to shoot at heavy cavalry (and comparable units) to justifiy the choice. Sure, he can still be nice in close combat, but that role a noble or something else can fulfill just as well. One might think that with this kind of argmumentation you could skip about every character, but the point is that most other characters (unless it`s a high lvl mage) just don`t cost that much and are giving you the option of being a)more effective b)nearly as effective with enough points for another character c)nearly as effective with enough points for another unit (that probably is as effective as the HB in some roles).


Even the Hail of Doom Arrow, while nice, doesn't really combine well with other items--there's no good 20 point item to complement it for most Heroes, with the possible exception of the armour that gives -2 to shoot at him in a wood, and there are precious few 70 pt combos for the Lord that justify taking the HoD.
Well, giving HoD a hero isn`t that bad. I`d suggest giving it a noble on great eagle with Helm of Hunt and a great weapon. He can move up to 20" and still use HoD, he is good in combat (of course you shouldn`t attack blocks alone or from the front). Sure, he`s got no ward save (but since WE ward saves are all crap...) and the armour save isn`t THAT good, but he isn`t more fragile than the other eagle heroes, pegasi heroes etc. often used in HE and DE armies (and those are really good). Of course HoD is always a gamble, but if you want to use it I`d suggest this combo.

Sinew
23-09-2005, 15:13
Moving on, can someone explain to me whether there is any use for the UNICORN???Only purpose of it as far as I can see is if you want to put your wizard in a unit of wild riders. The Unicorn ups the magic resistance of the unit, and compensates with its combat abilities for the fact that otherwise you'll be replacing one of the front rank with a really worthless fighter. Why would you want to put a wizard in a unit? It keeps her better protected than going on her own against enemies who can ignore targetting restrictions, although you could just stick her in the glade guard.

Bottom line: I wouldn't do it - it's not worth the points and I'll take my chances with spellsingers in GG and Branchwraiths. I guess you could take Beasts magic and hope for the bear's anger...

Eldaron
23-09-2005, 16:36
Well, you couldn`t really protect her better. A unicorn is a monster, thus you can target the wizard even if he is in a unit of wild riders.
Also, Wardancers are a nice unit to put the mages in. Magic Resistance and the -1 when shot at, together with immunity to psychology make a nice bodyguard unit. Also, it wouldn`t hamper the close combat abilities of the unit that much.

Lion El Jason
23-09-2005, 17:03
Is there a deffinate base size for unicorns then? Cos all mine are on 25x50mm bases.

Lion El Jason
23-09-2005, 17:04
Of course this could have all been solved by keeping the unicorn at 1 wound where it was before AND IT MADE SENSE!

Deadseed
23-09-2005, 17:41
What about between Waywatchers and Great Eagles? No one answered that yet. Which is better for using to slow the enemy down?

Taffsadar
23-09-2005, 20:53
How much does the high born with bow of loren and bodkins cost? If he fires on T3 models would he average 1,67 kills/turn if he doesn't have the alter kindred and 2,1kills/turn if he got it.

Deadseed
23-09-2005, 21:13
How much does the high born with bow of loren and bodkins cost? If he fires on T3 models would he average 1,67 kills/turn if he doesn't have the alter kindred and 2,1kills/turn if he got it.

205 points. 240 points with Alter.

Edit: Perhaps a HB with Loren and Bodkins isn't worth the points, but if you're going against a low leadership horde army like gobbos or skaven how about using Bow of Loren and Starfire Arrows? Killing 1.67 people a turn is nice, but how about taking care of a whole unit in one turn of shooting?

amagi
23-09-2005, 21:28
We should rename this thread Tactica: Bow of Loren.....................
Please see the last post on page 3 of this thread for all the Bow of Loren math. It's all been covered.

What about between Waywatchers and Great Eagles? No one answered that yet. Which is better for using to slow the enemy down?That's a bit like asking: "Which is better for slowing the enemy, a Great Eagle or a Dragon?"

Well, they'll both slow the enemy down in exactly the same way. They fly, and when you put them near the enemy they restrict marches. The question is what else do you want them to do? Dragons tend to cook, eat, or scare away a good portion of the opposing army, whereas Eagles just sort of flap around and get in the way. That's why they cost different numbers.

In other words, you can't really compare whether Eagles or Warhawk Riders are better at slowing down the enemy, except to say that if you literally mean march blocking, then they're exactly the same. Besides that, some of their abilities overlap, but others are very different. And the difference in cost is large.

If you just want to march block and occasionally pick off a war machine crew or lone wizard, then Eagles are great for their points.

If you want to do that but also have shooting and the ability to do a fair (or, in the case of a combined charge with one unit on the flank or rear, potentially devastating) amount of damage in combat, then you pay about triple for the Warhawks. It depends on your army.

Taffsadar
23-09-2005, 22:01
205 points. 240 points with Alter.

Edit: Perhaps a HB with Loren and Bodkins isn't worth the points, but if you're going against a low leadership horde army like gobbos or skaven how about using Bow of Loren and Starfire Arrows? Killing 1.67 people a turn is nice, but how about taking care of a whole unit in one turn of shooting?


The chances of succeding with a leadership test is (ie passing it):

2 2.8%
3 8.3%
4 16.7%
5 27.8%
6 41.7%
7 58.3%
8 72.2%
9 83.3%
10 91.7%


The four normal leadership values in warhammer are 6,7,8 and 9 which means that you have the statistical chances of 58%, 42%, 28% and 17% to make an enemy unit flee if you fire at them with the bow of loren and starfire arrows. I think it isn't really worth it since they will be able to rally later, they doesn't actually die from the shots.

Eldaron
23-09-2005, 22:30
As he was talking about waywatchers and great eagles I`ll go for that comparison ;)
It is a bit hard to compare these two since their duties are, at least form my point of view, quite different. Great Eagles are, due to their low point cost, great at turning away enemy charges etc. Sure, they can also slow the enemy and pick off the occasional war machine, but they are mainly a sacrifical unit.
Waywatchers however tend to be in another role. Their main asset is their deployment rule (yeah, the shooting rules are nice, but they are not that good if you ask me) which enables them to slow down the enemy (or portions of it) from tun 1 on. Also the 2 handweapons mean they can assault and take out war machines etc.
Waywatchers however tend to be rather point intensive and most enemies can rather easily find a way to bind them or hinder their shooting.

If I had to make a choice between taking waywatchers or a great eagle, I`d go for the great eagle. He is the ideal sacrifical unit, which plays in nicely with the rest of the army list. However, that really depends on a) your style of play and b) your skill, as eagles are not that easy to use. They`re not absolutely difficult to play with either, but definitely nothing for new (or just bad) players.

amagi
23-09-2005, 22:56
Waywatchers, Warhawk Riders, Wardancers, Wild Riders, whatever.
And yeah, I forgot to mention that Great Eagles can be great at leading away enemy units by fleeing from charges, etc. I wouldn't say this is necessarily a sacrificial role though, since they're good at escaping unscathed. Of course they'll die very rapidly if anyone's got a few spare arrows or fireballs around, so they're kind of sacrificed in that sense.

Gethalorre
24-09-2005, 11:50
Hiya folks. How many points are there in the battalion,(24 glade guard, 8 glade riders and 12? dryads) and is it a good starting point?

Taffsadar
24-09-2005, 12:22
Your forgetting one great thing with Great Eagles. They are the undisputed masters of eating fleeing enemies. I had a Great Eagle chewing up 720pts of Chaos Warriors (and sorcerers in the units). A Great Eagle tag teaming with a Treeman can work wonders. The terror tests are made in your opponents team so any unit failing it's terror test will still be running when it's your turn and the great movement of a great eagle means that it probably will catch the routers...


Hiya folks. How many points are there in the battalion,(24 glade guard, 8 glade riders and 12? dryads) and is it a good starting point?

I think it is a rather crappy starting point. You probably want around 30 archers so you need to buy another box of archers to get the last 6 archers (better to buy two boxes of archers). The gladeriders are nice (well you probably only want to use 5 of them per unit but the box contains 8 so you'll get eight anyway) and I don't know how many dryads are in a box so I can't say anything about them (do they come 12/box or is it 16?).

Eldaron
24-09-2005, 13:52
@amadi: I didn`t mean that eagles always have to die. It just usually happens somwwhere in the game when turning away the enemy (which includes the fleeing you mentioned) etc., because n a WE army they are the only really expendable units due to their low point cost.

amagi
24-09-2005, 20:44
Oh ok.
And just incidentally, I think having them count for a single Rare choice each was a good idea. A lot of people were complaining about that initially.

Speaking of running down enemies in conjunction with a Treeman, I've found that this is a great advantage of Alter characters as well. Often the Treeman will be charging an enemy that doesn't want to get in combat with it, but if you charge with the Alter character as well they have no choice but to take the charge or be run down. And of course if they run from Terror they'd probably get away from the Treeman, but not the Alter.
This much applies to any fast unit combined with the Treeman, but the Alter is an especially good match, because the two of them together do so much damage they can even sometimes break fully-ranked infantry units head on (average number of wounds caused is 5.5 for most targets, and usually 6 will win combat, so it's not uncommon--take the extra attack armour and 6.1 is average), and because the Alter is very good at positioning to make the joint charge work. Plus there is the simple intimidation factor of having these two rampage around the battlefield.

shadowprince
24-09-2005, 21:13
Ok here is the firs tof the special unit review Warhwks and Wardancer.

Wardancer: just wow the amount of damage these guys can do on the charge is staggering and can often be enough to break a block of infantry on their own, the champion has the stats especially when given the 4+ ward save to take on most hero level characters. These guys are fast hard hitting and can e tough to kill with resistance to all three forms of damage skirmish vs missle fire MR vs magic and a possible 4+ ward save in close combat. The only minor drawback is their skirmish ut this is more of a mind of the beholder thing becuase them not being a block unit gives them their mobility. Also a no armor a 6+ ward save when not takeing th 4+ makes them fragile and they can get bashed by high powered heros, vampire thralls chaos orcs etc. So always make sure its a flank charge. Finally the sheer amount of options can be somewhat staggering and confusing on when to use which. These are on the charge.

Killing blow dance: Use against heavily armore dinfantry or calvary, examples Knights Chaos warriors, etc

+1 attack dance, Light infantry spearmen, fast calv high wound low toughness, examples, Spearmen swarms Slaves. you will get 19 attacks with unit of 6.

Ward save, Second round or uits that you kow will be hitting back. Whights, Chaos warriors.

Strike first, When going against mostly slannesh and strike first units or characters. Lahmias slannesh.

Warhawk riders: One of my favorite units in the army and i see as a must have, not just mage and warmachine hunters but capable of chargeing unites due to hit and run. With hit and run ou can start thinking of these things as giant arrows a unit of three of these with champion will have 7 str4 attacks on the charge and due to flying they will have the charge. So maby you kill three peope against rank and file run away they can't follow you auto rally. Also when you need to hit that battle stadard bearer or a mage in the unit charge unit all attacks aainst character kill charcter loose combat you fine. The possiblity of not haveing to worry about a lost combat is amazingly powerful if used right, and i am sure you can come up with lots to do with these.

Problem with both uits is they are recognized by most people as powerful and their fr will be taeted first so hid and take out thse mages and warmachines quik.

Deadseed
25-09-2005, 01:06
Can anyone suggest any more uses for Warhawk's hit and run? I was a little confused as to what they might be good for, as the enemy can still hit back and kill them.

shadowprince
26-09-2005, 01:24
Killing characters in units slowly wittling down and you do have the possibility of the killing factor against them ecuase they are fragile hoprfully they an kill enough that there won't be to many hits back. If you are just going to march block and weopon and mage hunt don't bother takeing them and just grab an eagle.

amagi
26-09-2005, 02:19
With 4 Warhawk Riders + Champion you get 9 WS4 S4 attacks. If you only charge relatively weak infantry units, you have a fair chance of killing enough so that there will be few to no attacks back. So they're fairly safe, depending on what you target.

So you'll cause much more damage by charging than you would by using their shooting attacks, and with a relatively small amount of risk, potentially.
And the enemy may very well send a unit after them to deal with the threat, or even occasionally turn the unit being hit-and-run'ed to face them. This means you've effectively taken those units out of the game for that turn, as they're not advancing forward anymore.

Also, it's just a way to get the charging bonus every time they fight, without getting stuck in combats they'll probably lose.

And don't forget that if one of your units is stuck in a prolonged combat so that the Warhawks have a chance to charge in from the flank/rear for 2 or more turns, the enemy has to take panic tests each time.

As a side note, what happens if the Warhawk Riders kill all the enemy models?? Can they still fall back?

xowainx
26-09-2005, 16:42
Another fun thing for an Alter Kindred Noble facing a low leadership army would be a Blight of Terrors. There's certainly a lot of options in the Army Book.

Deadseed
26-09-2005, 19:17
I read someone saying that Treekin are so good. Can someone explain why? I know they have strength and toughness 5, but they are so costly.

Faolchu
26-09-2005, 19:21
Warhawk Riders

Warhawk riders count as a special choice in a Wood Elf army. Warhawks can use their high-speed, manoeuvrability and ”hit and run” special rule to harass and kill enemy units. Having spears and bows Warhawks can both charge and shoot enemy units. Warhawks can be used in the position of fast cavalry but are too expensive for menial of suicidal jobs.

There are 2 main ways to use Warhawks either offensively or defensively however they are probably better on the offence.

Warhawks should be kept behind cover as they have no armour and if targeted will fall easily to enemy archers. It is easy to keep Warhawks behind cover by using their long movement to move between cover. As Warhawks fly they may not enter woods and must hide behind them.

Warhawks can be used to target war machines, wizards and small units of skirmishers. Against war machines it is always better to charge them, as warhawks will easily kill them in combat and if you shoot they might shoot back and if the war machine hits it will easily kill warhawks. If going near war machines with warhawk keep them as far apart as they can (warhawks skirmish) so that a war machine will only be able to kill one. Against wizards your best bet is also to charge them do you don’t get blasted out of the sky by magic. If the mage is in a defended position or you have magic superiority it is always an option to shoot them killing them with their bows.

When encountering enemy fast cavalry or skirmishes it is best to find out what they are armed with. As warhawks are expensive it is not a good idea to confront skirmishers or fast cav with bows as they could stand and shoot killing warhawks with no armour and it is very unlikely warhawks would win a shooting fight. Warhawks are best against fast cav like marauders as the warhawks can fly around them shooting them till they are weakened of flee and then charge them with +1 strength for spear and always with the option of using “hit and run” to keep using their charge to kill the enemy. When encountering fast cav like dark rides with repeater crossbows it is best to stay away and leave them to waywatchers. It is always best to leave your archer to take on enemy flyers like Pegasus knights but they can be used against weaker things like terradons as warhawks can shoot them but do not bother charging as they will immediately flee and you will spend the rest of the battle chasing them.

On the defensive warhawks can be used to hover behind units shooting them and stopping them march move. Warhawks can also be used to rear of flank charge units and use “hit and run” to get away. They can also help units in combat by charging them in the rear or flank easily with there manoverability.

Warhawks should not be expected to win you a battle but instead to give you the upper hand by disabling your enemies war machines and magic potential.


I did this for another site it's a bit long but oh well

Sinew
27-09-2005, 08:29
I read someone saying that Treekin are so good. Can someone explain why? I know they have strength and toughness 5, but they are so costly. I think the general opinion is that Treekin are good because they give you something that otherwise WE cannot get: toughness. The idea is that a lot of armies have 'hammer' units and 'tarpits', the hammers to smash up enemy troops and the tarpits to hold up enemy hammers. In the WE list Treekin provide the tarpit role, so you can stick them in front of units and hold them up indefinitely whilst you surround and destroy them.

I'm not sure this is that good a tactic myself. Its true that against infantry, even quite reasonable infantry, Treekin are likely to take very few wounds. They're likely to be hit on a 4+ and wounded on a 5+/6+ by most infantry and then they have their save and ward to further whittle down the wounds. However they're not that offensive really, with 3 WS4 S5 attacks apiece they will struggle to beat the static combat resolution a ranked unit will bring to the fight. If they don't win that means they're losing and Ld 8 is OK but not great for holding units indefinitely.

Of course they could be used to hold up cavalry. Here things are a little better as the enemy unit is likely to only bring at most 1 rank (often none) to the fight, with perhaps a banner or war banner. Also even though Knights usually hit hard it still takes a lot of work to get a wound through on a Treekin. Most knights will be wounding on a 4+ even on the charge, and if you're lucky they'll be hitting on a 4 as well; you could well be looking at taking 1 wound from 7 charging knights with a champion! Again the weakness is when the Treekin strike back; almost all heavy cavalry will force the Treekin to hit on a 4+, and though you're wounding on 2+ a lot of the time you'll find that the high armour save of the knights means you average about 1 wound per Treekin which means you'll probably draw (and lose if they have a musician) or lose by one in most combats.

My view is that Treekin do a fair job but are a little too expensive for what they do. Using them as an anti-cavalry unit is not a bad idea, but probably best if you can keep a battle standard or the general nearby. If you lose even a unit of 3 Treekin to an unfortunate break test on Ld 7 (because you have lost by 1) that's a good chunk of your army that is being run down. I would use a Treeman who is even tougher, causes terror and has the Stubborn rule to fulfill this role. Using them against Infantry seems like a waste to me, WE have other things that can hit harder than Treekin so probably best to bait enemy infantry units you don't want to fight and kill those you do. Treekin are fantastic against 1 or even 2 chariots because they'll soak up the impact hits and then the chariot is doomed as it has no static combat resolution. Also Treekin are fantastic flankers as their high Unit Strenght allows them to cancel ranks even in small numbers and once they can deprive a unit of its stative combat res they will easily cause enough damage to break it. However they are quite slow so it may be possible for the enemy to avoid them.

I don't think they're terrible, I just don't think they're fantastic for their points.

Eldaron
27-09-2005, 10:27
I don`t see Treekin that good at taking charges. Sure, against many infantry units you don`t take too many wounds, but usually you don`t have that many treekin in a unit and it is a bit risky to go against infantry blocks that will usually have rank bonus, banner and a higher unit strength. Being charged by heavy cavalry isn`t that good an idea either, since most of the units have either S5 or 6 on the charge and usually a 2+ AS.
If you want a unit to really block the enemy take treemen, especially together with a battle standard. He can really bind any enemy, enabling wardancers and the like to charge in subsequent turns.
I don`t think treekin are that bad, I just find they cost too much. For blocking, better use a treeman (and using both is too point intensive) and for everything else you have enough other units that are just as viable.

ChildGamez
27-09-2005, 11:23
They can also help units in combat by charging them in the rear or flank getting rid of their rank bonus and giving you more point to win the combat.

Skirmish units don't negative rank bonus...
I have very little experience but I love the treesinging spell. You can try to do it with only one dice, with 2 lvl.2 spellsingers and the item that allows you to make the spell more than once in magic phase (don't remember the name.. some stave) you can accept to make 6 treesings + bounds.
Now someone asks "so what? Treesing sucks" but if you place your additional wood (in standard pitched battle) well, you can potentially cut off charges and if someone actually enters the wood... also any additional wood on table helps alot!

Faolchu
27-09-2005, 17:26
Skirmish units don't negative rank bonus...
Good point I've edited it now, all good

Wintersdark
28-09-2005, 05:56
Couple things.... the Bow of Loren and Starfire arrows issue, Taffsadar says:

The four normal leadership values in warhammer are 6,7,8 and 9 which means that you have the statistical chances of 58%, 42%, 28% and 17% to make an enemy unit flee if you fire at them with the bow of loren and starfire arrows. I think it isn't really worth it since they will be able to rally later, they doesn't actually die from the shots.

Given that you're firing at Ld8 and lower targets (this is NOT a combo good vs. everyone) I think this is much more effective than you give it credit for. Panic is EXTREMELY effective for the sort of army Wood Elves make.

Lets assume you panic a unit, and it WILL rally the next turn. The unit is now out of position and "distracted" for 2 turns, as it can't do much of anything the turn it rallies either.

For a light surgical strike type army, this is very useful. That unit, now out of position, can no longer properly guard another units flanks. Depriving the second unit of it's support and allowing yourself an unobstructed flank charge can make all the difference.

If you're playing a shooting heavy force, it gives you an extra 2 or 3 turns worth of shooting at that unit too.

To me, with a Wood Elf style army, disrupting your opponents army is extremely important. I wouldn't expect the shooting to kill massive numbers of models, but I'll be looking to cause as many panic tests every turn that I can. The disruptions it causes creates opportunities that the Wood Elf army is particularly good at exploiting.

Panic is the shooting armies friend.

Sinew
28-09-2005, 08:22
I agree with Wintersdark that the combo is a good one, I just don't think it's worth 60pts on top of the price of the Highborn. Panic is definitely a useful effect but the arrows don't seem that good without the BoL because of the unreliability of pulling off the shot, and with the BoL you're looking at a Highborn worth over 200pts before you've given him anything else.

Wintersdark
28-09-2005, 09:56
*nods* It IS expensive - it's an issue that's been plagueing me with my list making for a while now. I'd likely only ever field that if I knew I was making a list to face specific opponents, as that's a LOT of points to have tied up in something that may not be useful at all (Oh look, an undead opponent!) In the right situation, I figure it would be ok. Basically, just look at it as 60 points for likely a panic test per turn - the highborn could fulfill another roll, too. Don't think of it as over 200 points for a panic test per turn, that's just one of his duties.

Toss him into a Glade Rider unit for example, give him an enchanted shield and Pagaent of Shrikes. Sure, he won't be a combat machine, but he'll boost the units ability significantly, giving it a GREAT flank charge, he'll boost the units missile power, nearly guarantee panic tests, be able to snipe at characters hiding in units, etc. Just don't assume he's there to take on enemy characters.

All that said... I'm quickly getting back to my Dark Elf character sets - that being nearly naked nobles and a L1 sorceress as a scroll caddy. Elf characters eat up LOTS of points quickly - points often better spent on troops. I'm starting to go with much the same in my WE lists - basic Nobles scattered throughout my units where the added punch will help, very few magic items.

Rampager
28-09-2005, 20:04
ok, lets go about dryad now.

let assume you use a fixed amount of dryad, say 24. Should they be put in 2 untis of 12 or 3 of 8 ?

Each one has his strenght and weakness.

With unit of 12, you get more survability, as you can take more punishment. The second point is that you will be using more the fear ability.

With unit of 8, you are more maneuvrable. You also have one more unit for your enemy to kill and for you to use.

I don't know yet wich one is the best. Your opinions ?

Eldaron
28-09-2005, 22:27
I`d go for the three units. You won`t be outnumbering most units anyway, so going for 12 dryad units is rather pointless. And against most of the units that you can outnumber you should be winning anyway, fear or not. As for survivability, 3 smaller units aren`t much worse, since you won`t be running from panic etc. and the enemy has to split his fire. In combat they aren`t worse either as you shouldn`t go head on with dryads in general. Also, you get more flexibility, more opportunities for flanking movements and charges and more maneuvarability.

Sinew
29-09-2005, 10:30
My normal principle is how few can you take in one unit to be effective. I know that sounds like I'm talking MSU tactics, but all I mean is there's no point paying for stuff you don't need. I'd take 7 Dryads if I could (unfortunately the minimum unit size precludes this) because the maximum frontage of most infantry units is 5. Against such opponents you can get 7 into combat (unless they have weeny man-sized bases) and any extra in the unit can be cut as far as I'm concerned. Some units deploy with very wide frontages but these tend either to be sacrifice units (slaves/goblins) which 7 Dryads may well still beat, or heavy cavalry which Dryads really won't stand much chance against.

Dryads are very resistant to shooting, and not the best magic target either with T4, so I don't see taking casualties on the way in as a problem. More units gives you added flexibility and increases your deployment options.

Sinew
29-09-2005, 10:37
All that said... I'm quickly getting back to my Dark Elf character sets - that being nearly naked nobles and a L1 sorceress as a scroll caddy. Elf characters eat up LOTS of points quickly - points often better spent on troops.I think I'm heading this way as well, however I wanted to ask what people think of Branchwraiths. I'm currently thinking of fielding one as a level 1 with the Cluster of Radiants (who isn't?) but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I'm taking a scroll caddy as well, and I was thinking I could save the points on the Branchwraith, upgrade my Treeman to an Ancient and give him the CoR instead. That way I'm only down 1 DD and I save myself about 75 points. I don't really want to do this, as I feel there is a disadvantage I'm not really seeing, but the more I think about it the less effective the vaunted 'Dispel Branchwraith' seems to be.

Eldaron
29-09-2005, 10:50
If you don`t play an all forest spirit army, I wouldn`t take the Branchwraith. Itīs only marginally better than a dryad champion and won`t do that much in combat even with sprites (also, it won`t live that long). Upgrading the Branchwraith to a mage? Useless. And paying 50 points just for getting CoR isn`t worth it, better get a spellsinger dispel caddy and take an Ancient (giving him the CoR). Since the Branchwraith also hasn`t that much options for joining a unit it will probably end up in a unit of dryads and honestly i don`t see the point in this. It gives the unit not that much more of a punch (better go for a champion if you really want that) and usually dryads are not for taking hard units head on, so the Branchwraiths is really useless.

Lion El Jason
29-09-2005, 11:39
I used a branchwraith...I found it far from useless. Its cheaper and has better combat stats than a noble. Its also cheaper to upgrade a branchwraith to a mage than it is to buy a mage. And I did buy mine a cluster of radiants, it was adding 2 dispell dice and casting treesinging as well as being as good as a naked noble.

I think they are a good choice to add unless you need a tooled up noble or a scroll caddy.

Eldaron
29-09-2005, 17:45
Let`s go through this.
1. It is not cheaper to upgrade a branchwraith than to buy a mage. The Branchwraith without any sprites costs 115 points, a spellsinger with 25 points worth of items costs just as much. With CoR it goes up to 140 points, which is exactly the point cots of a spellsinger with 2 dispel scrolls. Now you have one additional dispel dice opposed to 2 scrolls and I favor the scrolls.
2. One could now say that a Branchwraith is decent in combat in addition to that but actually that`s not so true. Most people think that chracters are best used in units for combat support. That may be true if you play really infantry heavy or if you use breaker units. But other than that characters are (some exceptions exist, as always), at least from my point of view, better off alone, where they can bring in the most potential at the right point. So, a Branchwraith may be better than a naked noble, but what units would you put chracters in at all? Let`s take a look.
1. Eternal guard. Probably the most obvious. Not for Branchwraith though.
2. Glade Guard. What for?
3. Wild Riders. Only if you plan on taking a big unit as a breaker or half-breaker. Also, not for branchwraiths.
4. Treekin. Better get another one of those.
5. Wardancers. As mage bodyguards or with the moonstone. Usually you shouldn`t take tough units head on, character or not, and otherwise they will do alright without using that much points for a little punch. Also, not for branchwraiths.
6. So, the only one left where you can put your branchwraith in is a unit of dryads. And why that`s not so great I`ve already described.

So, you either get an okay fighter (that you have to put in a unit of dryads or let run alone (and for this T4 with 2W is a bit fragile considering the movement it has) which will not do that much good for the points) that is cheaper than a naked noble or you get an okay fighter that adds a bit to your magic defense (though not that much) and is far more costly than a naked noble.

So, unless you plan on bolstering the punch of one dryad unit (which actually isn`t that much needed considering their role) I`d really not recommend taking a branchwraith.

Wintersdark
29-09-2005, 17:46
Now, I haven't used them yet, but I'm really looking at using a brachwraith with A Blight of Terrors.

VS. non-immpsyche armies, terror causers running amok can cause all sorts of problems.

Cluster of radiants? Well, I don't know where Eldanar gets 50 points - Don't need to upgrade to a wizard to take it. If you're already taking a branchwraith, and have space, might as well take it. I wouldn't take a Branchwraith specifically for Radiants, though.

A L1 branchwraith mage with/Cluster of Radiants is 140 pts. A L1 Sorceress with 2xDispel Scrolls is....140 pts. Which is better magic defense? I'll take the scroll caddy, thanks.

IF I took a branchwraith, I'd likely have it hang out with my dryads - not necessarily IN the units, though and have it cause terror. It can always jump into a combat when the little extra hittiness would be handy, or run amok through the oppsoing army spreading terror but being able to hide easily (unlike most terror causers, which are Large Targets)

In the end, I generally don't end up including them, though. I'd sooner have 2 basic largely naked nobles, an assassin type alter noble (GW, LA, Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom) and a scroll caddy.

Wintersdark
29-09-2005, 18:02
*nods* Upgrading the branchwraith to a L1 mage and taking Cluster for magic defense isn't cost effective at all. Assuming you're using the Branchwraith as a combat booster for the dryads (not so good as Eldanar has shown) and ignore his base 65 pt cost, you're still looking at 75 points (L1 upgrade and cluster) for 2 dispel dice. That's a pretty high cost for two dice, when you consider how much better a caddy is for magic defense.

On a different note entirely.......

Eternal Guard.

They are a source of a lot of pondering for me. They ARE a good unit. A very good unit, as far as Elven Spear are concerned - better than HE spear (built in stubborn, WS5, Ld9) and DE Spear (More expensive, but just better all over). But is a ranked infantry unit actually necessary? On one hand, it'll be a *magnet* for your opponent, providing a high-cost less manueverable regular ranked unit to target and bring his
forces to bear on. While this is good, as it'll be a lot easier to bait your opponent, it's also pretty much going to garauntee that you'll lose that unit(Unless your massacring your opponent). It's just too much of a target. Lots of points gone. Sure, things hammering that unit aren't hitting the rest of your army, but on a point for point basis, your better off having people shoot/magic your dryads, who are immune to psychology (no panic) and don't have a rank bonus to lose.

Tough choice.

For me, I'm thinking I'm going to leave it out at first, see how I can do without ANY ranked units. No rank bonus anywhere on the table (unless I reform a Glade Guard unit to 5x2 in preperation for flanking).

Sinew
30-09-2005, 11:03
On characters I'd rate a character who acts as a mini unit (an Eagle Rider, an Alter) far higher than one in a unit, unless he was giving the unit an ability. 100+ points for a character is too much for a couple of extra wounds in combat if he ever gets there. As the WE army doesn't need much in the way of Leadership that means most of my characters are either going to be on monsters, on their own or wizards. Terror is good, but there are ways of getting terror into the list without getting a BoT.

My feelings on Eternal Guard is I'm going to ignore their Stubborn ability and, for the most part, their ranks. I'm interested in the fact that they hit hard and can cancel ranks which is a premium ability for WE. The reason I ignore their ranks is I think they should be able to win combats in units of 10 deployed 2 x 5 (OK, so 1 rank to use their abilities) without needing extra guys at the back. Also I don't really think putting a Noble in the unit to make them Stubborn is worthwhile, he's too hard to protect and with his T3 enemy troops will cut him down thus robbing the unit of being Stubborn. So a couple of units of 10 might well make it into one army build - probably one with a more solid look and more shooting so I can put pressure on the enemy.

I don't think they'll be too much of a missile target, as I fully expect to be able to put either a wood or a unit of dryads in front of them. This should obscure them enough to make the enemy look elsewhere for shooting and I plan on making enemy missile units/artillery a priority for my warhawks, eagles and Alters from the word go.

Wintersdark
30-09-2005, 13:43
mmmm units of 12 would likely work better. Why only 5 wide? You can get 6 into combat against standard 5-wide units (hell, you can get 7 in) but 6 doesn't significantly impact their manueverability. That's an extra 2 attacks on the charge, 3 thereafter.

Still, it's a good point, doing the MSU thing with them. A big block, particularly with a character to make them stubbon, is in my opinion giving your opponent far too good a target. You end up pushing 400 points in one ultimately frail unit.

Aside from Treemen, Special Characters, and, obviously, dragons, how else can you get Terror into the Woodie list?

One will likely have a treeman regardless, but the BW/BoT gets you a second point of terror - to better hit lots of units with terror tests all at once. The BW is just 115 pts too, and is a reasonably good thwacking character too - Once she'd done her thing with terror, I'd have her go mage/war machine hunting.

I learned with my Dark Elves that a pair of terror causers can be *extremely* useful.

I do agree that the mini-unit characters are much better than unit boosting characters - You'll be able to pick their fights better, which is important considering woodie frailty.

One thing for sure - I can't seem to make a single list without an Alter kindred noble w/ GW, Helm of the Hunt, and often HoD. He's a little expensive, but sooooo nice

Eldaron
30-09-2005, 13:46
@Wintersdark: Wasn`t saying you must make the Branchwraith a wizard for taking CoR, I was just comparing the magic defense possibilities.

As for Eternal Guard: Personally I don`t use them. They are a nice unit, but in my opinion infantry (to be more precise, infantry blocks), especially elven infantry, is overpriced anyway. Using them as a blocking unit isn`t that effective as for the points spend there you can just as well go for a treeman (which is better suited for blocking and taking charges I think). If using them I suppose going for 10 models per unit as Sinew does would be best. But then, if you`re not using a HB I think the slot would be better filled with units like Wild Riders which are also able to negate ranks and are more flexible due to their movement.

Wintersdark
30-09-2005, 13:52
I've got to agree there, Eldaron. I'd started out with a highborn, but then realised that he served no real purpose. Ld9 is perfectly adequate for my needs, and the highborn costs the same as TWO nobles. I'd rather have two nobles. Hell, nakes the highborn's cost is comparable to a tooled up Alter noble.

If you make the highborn an alter, he can't be your general and thus EG are special again. So, saving points, no highborn, no core EG, so I likely won't field them at all. Why waste special slots on them? Not that I always use all my special slots, mind you. Honestly, I'd rather field Glade Riders - DE's Dark Riders taught me how wonderful core fast cav are - and the thought of core fast cav with no move and fire shooting penalties, and 30" range?

Sinew
30-09-2005, 14:32
Why only 5 wide? You can get 6 into combat against standard 5-wide units (hell, you can get 7 in) but 6 doesn't significantly impact their manueverability. That's an extra 2 attacks on the charge, 3 thereafter.I would only take them 5 wide because I think I'd lose out on the 6th if the unit was charged. It is usually possible for an opponent to bring his maximum frontage (assuming a ranked unit 4 wide) into just 5 troops. As the Eternal Guard work best when charged because they get their extra attacks from the back rank I'd go for 5 x 2.

It should be mentioned that there was some debate on the rules forum about the legality of such charges but there was no conclusive answer. If you don't play this way and your opponents won't cut out the 6th man then get 6 or even 7 wide by all means.

Aside from Treemen, Special Characters, and, obviously, dragons, how else can you get Terror into the Woodie list? One of the spells makes a unit cause fear, or if it causes fear already terror. But anyway I was planning on a Treeman in every list, and possibly a Dragon in at least one variant because I've never before had an army that could use them! I reckon the Blight of Terrors has its place but again I reckon an Eagle riding noble could carry it better than a Branchwraith. Were I taking the Dragon I'd have to have a highborn and would have a unit even faster and more maneuverable than Wild Riders, so this is the kind of army I'd include Eternal Guard in. They'd rush up to the enemy's front to stop him turning to face the dragon in his flank!

Eldaron
30-09-2005, 17:47
It should be mentioned that there was some debate on the rules forum about the legality of such charges but there was no conclusive answer. If you don't play this way and your opponents won't cut out the 6th man then get 6 or even 7 wide by all means.

Rulewise there is no problem as you only have to get as many models as possible of the charging unit into contact. But clipping is often overdone (i.e. charging a chariot far enough to the flank of a unit that he only is in contact with 1 model which he usually will kill and thus not suffer any attacks from the unit) which is obviously not the way charges are intended to be.

Back to topic.

One thing for sure - I can't seem to make a single list without an Alter kindred noble w/ GW, Helm of the Hunt, and often HoD. He's a little expensive, but sooooo nice

I wouldn`t give HoD and alter, rather a noble on eagle, because that one can move 20" and still use HoD.

Lion El Jason
30-09-2005, 18:34
Let`s go through this.
1. It is not cheaper to upgrade a branchwraith than to buy a mage. The Branchwraith without any sprites costs 115 points, a spellsinger with 25 points worth of items costs just as much. With CoR it goes up to 140 points, which is exactly the point cots of a spellsinger with 2 dispel scrolls. Now you have one additional dispel dice opposed to 2 scrolls and I favor the scrolls.


We'd all favour the scrolls but that isnt what I said. If you want a lone character (Theres no point putting them in any unit) to just go around and be hard then a branchwraith is cheaper than a naked noble. Now if you want a bit of magic defense you can spend your 140points on the mage OR you can spend 75 points to upgrade the branchwraith.




2. One could now say that a Branchwraith is decent in combat in addition to that but actually that`s not so true. Most people think that chracters are best used in units for combat support. That may be true if you play really infantry heavy or if you use breaker units. But other than that characters are (some exceptions exist, as always), at least from my point of view, better off alone, where they can bring in the most potential at the right point. So, a Branchwraith may be better than a naked noble, but what units would you put chracters in at all? Let`s take a look.
1. Eternal guard. Probably the most obvious. Not for Branchwraith though.
2. Glade Guard. What for?
3. Wild Riders. Only if you plan on taking a big unit as a breaker or half-breaker. Also, not for branchwraiths.
4. Treekin. Better get another one of those.
5. Wardancers. As mage bodyguards or with the moonstone. Usually you shouldn`t take tough units head on, character or not, and otherwise they will do alright without using that much points for a little punch. Also, not for branchwraiths.
6. So, the only one left where you can put your branchwraith in is a unit of dryads. And why that`s not so great I`ve already described.

So, you either get an okay fighter (that you have to put in a unit of dryads or let run alone (and for this T4 with 2W is a bit fragile considering the movement it has) which will not do that much good for the points) that is cheaper than a naked noble or you get an okay fighter that adds a bit to your magic defense (though not that much) and is far more costly than a naked noble.

So, unless you plan on bolstering the punch of one dryad unit (which actually isn`t that much needed considering their role) I`d really not recommend taking a branchwraith.

No, you use it on its own. Like you say WE are in no great need of bolstering units (And of course a branchwraith cannot join most units).

Basically, my point was that the upgraded branchwraith costs just over half the naked noble and the mage and does part of the job of each for only 1 hero slot.
So theres some advantage to having one.

I'm not sure how well I explained that...

Wintersdark
30-09-2005, 22:22
I wouldn`t give HoD and alter, rather a noble on eagle, because that one can move 20" and still use HoD.

I give him to the Alter as I'm not using a hero on an Eagle. If I had a spare hero on an eagle, I'd give it to him.

The alter works for it, though. Sure, he can only fire if he moves 9", but he can get into position safer than the eagle (he can run through/hide in forests, where the eagle can't sit in them) and he can hide around friendly units (also where the eagle can't).

Basically, my choice is eagle hero OR alter, I'm using the alter, so he gets the HoD :)



I would only take them 5 wide because I think I'd lose out on the 6th if the unit was charged. It is usually possible for an opponent to bring his maximum frontage (assuming a ranked unit 4 wide) into just 5 troops. As the Eternal Guard work best when charged because they get their extra attacks from the back rank I'd go for 5 x 2.

It should be mentioned that there was some debate on the rules forum about the legality of such charges but there was no conclusive answer. If you don't play this way and your opponents won't cut out the 6th man then get 6 or even 7 wide by all means.
None of the people I play with use units 4 wide (of 20mm bases anyways), typically units are 5+ wide. I'm aware you can, completely legally, get 5 charging models in base contact with only 5 of a 6-wide unit, but we've adapted the rule to what we believe the spirit of the rule is:

Instead of chargers having to get maximum MODELS in base contact (Letter of the rule now), we require chargers to get maximum FRONTAGE in contact.

Completely solves chariot issues, results in good looking charges, and most importantly, just makes sense.

I realise that's just our house rule, but we play that way everywhere, and assume(and play as if) others will too. Of course, if people don't, I wouldn't say anything - it's legal to do the corner of the chargers base thing - I just feel it's good sportsmanship to bring more into contact.

Wintersdark
30-09-2005, 22:25
Basically, my point was that the upgraded branchwraith costs just over half the naked noble and the mage and does part of the job of each for only 1 hero slot.
So theres some advantage to having one.

I'm not sure how well I explained that...

I can see your point: Basically, if you're already taking the Branchwraith for whatever reason, you might as well take the added 50-75 points to bolster magic defence, as it won't stop the branchwraith from doing whatever you wanted it to in the first place.

Makes sense, if you've got the spare points.

KingintheWoods
01-10-2005, 19:41
Just thought i'd throw my 2 cents on the wood elves in. Some of these are quite obvious (its been a long week, just started uni), i'll return with more technical and tactical advice after a decent nights sleep.

Blight of terrors on any eagle mounted character can be great against low leadership armies. And his awesome movement means he should be able to catch any units he scares away.

Wardancers are a great 'killing' unit, and if you can combine there charge with a flank charge from anything that negates ranks you'll most likely win.

Glade riders are my personal favourite flanking unit, because of there 3d6 pursuit. My army includes 3 units all with musicians (and 2 with standards).

Waywatchers are beautiful models, every one should include a unit of 6 just for this reason. (ok they are tactically very useful, but the models alone will make me take them time and again)

All of the wood elf core units are great, if in doubt, take more core.

Wintersdark
01-10-2005, 22:05
Wild Riders are better flankers, but cannot bait and flee. While you lose that (and this means you should definately keep some Glade Riders) for those two points you are getting a 5+/6+ ward save, Fear on the charge, +1 S, +1 A in later rounds of combat, MR(1) and a free musician. Glade riders are great, but wild riders are amazing :) Wild Riders with a standard and war banner can break units very reliably with a flank charge, and make an incredible support for Dryads ect.


Another interesting thing to try is a unit of Scouts with a stardard bearer and the Banner of Zenith (Saemrath). You end up with a scouting unit that will be able to block march moves in about a 30" diameter (12" radius+spread of the skirmished unit). These would be *amazing* in a highly shooty force, or if you want to slow down a part of your enemies army (while you murder the other half :) )

xowainx
01-10-2005, 22:26
Glad i'm not the only person who's noticed the Banner of the Zenith.. It has all kinds of great uses for making the enemy's movement phase even harder against Wood Elves flanking and skirmishing all over the place.

Wintersdark
02-10-2005, 03:41
Glad i'm not the only person who's noticed the Banner of the Zenith.. It has all kinds of great uses for making the enemy's movement phase even harder against Wood Elves flanking and skirmishing all over the place.

I was thinking of it on Wild Riders initially, or on a Battle Standard Bearer running amok, but a buddy of mine suggested it on scouts - I hadn't even realised that the scouts could carry a banner, but of course they can. After all, they are just an upgraded version of Glade Guard.

That single unit of scouts may well be doomed, but they could, all by themselves, hold half an army back and out of a fight for a couple turns - particularly in a horde-style army. Put them in a forest, have a sorceress on a steed move the forest at the enemy.

It's pure genious in the case of Greenskins, with their pesky fanatics. The Scouts are completely safe in the trees. If you've got a Spellsinger with the Deepwood Sphere nearby, have it walk into the forest too.... Let those hordy infantry units come into the forest now :)

xowainx
02-10-2005, 08:37
Wild Riders was something I was going to try to, figuring that they'd probably get in a bit closer to the enemy.. If you've got the scouts hidden in a wood fairly near the enemy line it's going to completely ruin their advance and they will have to send at least one unit to deal with it, rather than concentrate on more deadly things like the Wild Riders/Alter Kindred Noble with Blight of Terrors/Helm of the Hunt bombing it down their flanks. For a measely 25 points I think it's a bargain.

Wintersdark
02-10-2005, 15:13
List reference: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12811

That's what I'm working on right now. We play a lot of 2250 games, if your wondering about the points limit.

I've gone rather magic heavy, but thats actually more a matter of being incredibly terrified of what direct damage spells can do to an approximately 60 model largely T3/no armour army than a desire to lay waste with magic.

I'm looking forward to the possibility of having a Level 2 mage with Calaingor's Stave throwing 9 power dice by himself treesinging forests, and the crazy crazy damage that could do if anyone was so silly as to actually set foot inside MY forests :) Lets see them TRY to kill off my lovely march blocking banner waving scouts!

Another reason.... wood elf vs. wood elf games. Magical superiority will be necessary in order to control the woods. WE spells are largely forest based, and there will be at least 2 on the table in that case. The magically superior force will be able to gain control of those woods, and be able to use them as "fortresses" of sorts to sally forth from.

Sinew
05-10-2005, 09:44
Can someone talk about Eagles a bit? Eagles seem to be highly rated by our High Elf cousins, but I'm not sure I'd field them in a WE army. I've never really seen the big attraction - they're small, cheap, fast and can march block fine, but they're also quite weak and take up a rare slot. My feeling is that if you're going to get an Eagle in rare you could consider putting a Noble on it. The noble greatly increases the Eagle's killing power making it a much better unit. Alternatively I was thinking of just using Warhawk Riders who excell at the hunter role because they're even more maneuverable than Eagles and have hit and run. Still people seem to like Eagles so I was wondering if anyone could elaborate.

In addition, Waywatchers - are they really worth the extra points over scouts? At present I'm not tempted to take them, except for the advantage of being able to deploy in the same wood as enemy scouts to flush them out. That however seems like a lame reason, so again I'm looking for re-assurance from the community that they're worth the whopping points cost.

Wintersdark
05-10-2005, 14:04
Eagles - I've been educated, repeatedly, on the value of unridden Eagles by my HE playing buddy. Eagles aren't there to win combats against much of anything - a noble on an eagle increases it's flexibility, but isn't really necessary.

Eagles excel at a number of useful things, some of which you mentioned, but there are more:
March blocking (obviously)
Mage hunting (They are actually very, very good at this, at least for the softer non-chaos mage sorts)
War machine hunters (They will typically eventaully kill off most war machine crew, but how long it takes doesn't really matter - the war machine in question won't be firing at your while it's crew is being molested by your birdie)
"Stay and Fight" encouragement. This is one of the best aspects of Eagles, IMHO, and is something that people often overlook. Often, people will deliberately move a unit into charge range, intending to flee your charge, leaving your unit exposed to a counter from another unit, and keeping their own original unit safe (as it will most likely rally). A nearby eagle, also declaring a charge with it's 20" fly move, makes it almost a certainty that the enemy unit WILL be run down if it flees, thus people will often stay and fight a fight that they probably shouldn't.

Waywatchers: I haven't yet fielded these, but I've played against them enough to know they are worth while. Their deployment rules are important! Often, you can be left without ANYWHERE to deploy your scouts except in your own deployment zone, particularly when you are facing a large army with many units. Waywatchers can be placed nearly anywhere (even in LOS, or in the enemies deployment zone, but must be at least 12" away). If you can get waywatchers behind your enemies lines, you've got it made. They will be able to follow ranked regiments, firing all over the place and generally making life difficult. With no move-and-fire penalties, there's not reason not to keep on the move, march block, and pepper your opponent with arrows striking on 2's with killing blow.

Don't forget that your waywatchers aren't just scouts with better deployment rules - they get that BS5, so hit on 2's at short range (within 15" - as they can start within that of an enemy unit, they can start the game in close range) WITH killing blow making their shots even useful vs. heavily armoured foes.

Obviously, they are best placed in a forest where they get a FURTHER -1 to be hit by shooting, making them a little safer. I'd be very cautious fielding them vs. a player with either a lot of magic missiles, or auto-hit ranged weaponry (ratling guns, ect) - the unit will be pretty expensive, so you don't want to lose it.

I'd stick with smallish units, as to limit your risk, but they are very good troops. It ultimately depends on how badly you want your rare slots for something else. I haven't yet fielding my waywatchers because I'm kinda hung up on the lovely treeman, and an eagle (it's cheap and very useful). I do want to get them onto the field, though - I still remember how badly just 6 mangled my Dark Elves in the last GT I went to.

hsiehlt
05-10-2005, 21:17
I think I'll speak for a lot of new WE players that its quite difficult to choose the 2 rare spots in a 2000 pt game. From a general persepctive, there are 3 options.

A. Treeman and Waywatchers. No cheap replacement for eagle, but you have to rely on your altered kindred, warhawk riders, and maybe glade riders to catch the enemy down. Waywatchers can block marches from turn 1 if deployed right and can be good against armor.

B. Treeman and Eagle; use scouts with banner of zennith as a march block replacement for waywatchers. On paper, your scouts and eagle together should be about as good of march blockers as waywatchers. However, scouts in this manner are as expensive as waywatchers, without good shooting. Main advantage would be having eagle tag team with warhawks and altered combo for some long distance charges.


C. Eagle and Waywatchers; use Treekin as replacement for Treeman. However, treekin are not stubborn, nor are good at taking charge, and doesn't cause terror. Eagle, Waywatchers, and Warhawks should take down any warmachine and non-shooting skirmishers. Treekin will simply be a flanking unit like ogres, but can't really take a charge.

What do you guys think is the best option? I'm leaning towards A or B...

Wintersdark
06-10-2005, 03:12
I agree, really. While I don't think the Treeman is necessary, I think it's a very good option and it'll be a while before I play a list without one.

The treekin are really entirely different - they don't fulfill the same role as a treeman at all, aside from hitting pretty hard. Treekin, IMHO, function better as a solid combat support unit, able to dish out damage without taking much in return. However, like you said, they're not so good at taking a charge - they don't have the Treeman's solid armour save, they aren't stubborn, etc.

Scouts with the banner do work, although it's not really necessary to use the banner in the first place. Don't forget about the bonus 100vp's for captured standards - those scouts become a very good target. Without the banner, their march blocking range is only 8" instead of 12", but they can still do the job.

I'd take them with the banner if I were going to be playing scenario-based games, where blanket march blocking could mean preventing a unit from reaching an objective, but otherwise I think it'll be more a neat toy than anything else. Still, I'll likely use it from time to time, as it does look fun :) Of course the problem with non-waywatcher scouts is that they may well end up without a good place to deploy in, a problem waywatchers don't suffer.

Treeman and Eagle are my favourite right now. This isn't putting down the way watchers, though - I love them, and would love to field them instead of the eagle, but I'm going with the eagle as it's very useful and quite a bit cheaper. Playtesting will show which works best for me.

I should note that I'm already fielding a noble on an eagle (in leui of the alter noble) and warhawks - the eagle adds to my already significant air force. I'm planning on using them to run down enemy wizards very early in the game, to attain open magical superiority. Hopefully, it works out as well in practice as it does on paper :)

Sinew
06-10-2005, 09:15
I'm leaning towards Treeman/Eagle as well, even though I too have a Noble riding an Eagle and some Warhawks in my provisional list. I think I'd rather spread my points over a series of slightly cheaper units than invest heavily in expensive waywatchers. I will take scouts and if the enemy tries to put his own scouts in all the woods to stop me infiltrating, well he's just given me a new dimension to Treesinging, and my Glade Riders/Dryads will soon hunt out the offending units. Treeman is just way too good to pass up. He's my breakwater - the thing I'll put in front of heavy stuff to take it down. Without him you rely heavily on distraction tactics.

Wintersdark
06-10-2005, 09:43
I'm leaning towards Treeman/Eagle as well, even though I too have a Noble riding an Eagle and some Warhawks in my provisional list. I think I'd rather spread my points over a series of slightly cheaper units than invest heavily in expensive waywatchers. I will take scouts and if the enemy tries to put his own scouts in all the woods to stop me infiltrating, well he's just given me a new dimension to Treesinging, and my Glade Riders/Dryads will soon hunt out the offending units. Treeman is just way too good to pass up. He's my breakwater - the thing I'll put in front of heavy stuff to take it down. Without him you rely heavily on distraction tactics.

I agree. In my Wood Elf lists, excepting the characters and treemen, my units average about 120 pts each. There are NO standards anywhere in the list.

I'm VERY fond of this setup. It allows me to field a lot of units (=lots of deployments, which generates a significant tactical advantage), and knowledge that loss of a unit is not a big deal - if I can trade a unit for a ranked infantry unit, I'm FAR ahead. He gets 120 pts for me, I get, say, 250 pts from him (assuming around 150 pts for the unit, +100 pts for the standard).

It creates a situation where my opponent isn't sure where to direct his attack. My whole army is blinding fast, and can cover the battlefield in a very short time. Where should his infantry go? They can't sit still, or they'll be shot to pieces. They have no chance of actually running down my troops, and trying gets them spread out and makes them easier pickings.

It's hard to create a battle plan vs an opponent with no battle line.

The Treeman provides a Target for my opponent, something to point his sharp and pointy stick at. For me, it's the treeman and my Glade Guard. The GG provide incentive to come to me - stay back and get picked apart by bow fire and watch your light troops + war machines get torn up by my fast cav and fliers. The treeman can hide in a forest (as I'll pretty muhc always have at least the one 6" one) where he's out of LOS in the beginning. From there, he can move himself around via treesinging. If my opponent wants to come in to get him, they are welcome to try - between his strangleroots and the marvelous use of direct damage treesinging (particularly coupled with a couple Spellsingers/weavers and Calaingors Stave, you can get a LOT of damage done to someone foolish enough to enter your woods :)

Ignore him? Feel free. I'd love it if people marched past my treeman trying to get to grips with the Glade Guard that are pestering them - beside/behind my enemy is where I really want my treeman to be :)

Wintersdark
06-10-2005, 10:11
Damnit, wrote the whole post out then accidentally deleted it all. Doh!

Anyways, trying again:

Of magic and forests - the Wood Elf's Friends.

More so than any other race, the battlefield is our friend. It protects us, and functions as a weapon. If you can maintain magical superiority (not too big a deal with such a great mage hunting air force!) you can use the forests as a staging ground for attacks against your foe.

Consider a magic heavy Wood Elf force, designed to use forests to your advantage. I've been contemplating a L4 Spellsinger(w/Deepwood sphere, lamenations), a L2 Spellweaver(w/ Calaingor's Stave), and a L1 Branchwraith with Cluster of Radiants and Befuddlement.

This force sports 9 power and 7 dispel dice - you could swap the Branchwraith for a normal L2 at similar cost for 10 power and 6 dispel, but I think we're better served with the addition dispel die. The treeman can cast his bound treesigning, the Branchwraith can use it's befuddlement bound spells, then you've got 9 power dice you can pour into Treesinging spells too if you wish. That's a lot of forests moving around (with the stave at +1", so D3+2" per casting) or a heck of a lot of damage if someone was foolish enough to enter a forest.

Your mages and vulnerable, slower combat troops (treeman, wardancers for example) can hide in the forest, out of LOS (or at worst with a to hit penalty for being in cover if they don't fit all in) and use treesinging to get into a good position from which to launch an attack. The deepwood Sphere provides reassurance should anyone want to try to get into the forest to root out your mages or whatever else is in there - each enemy model in the forest taking a S5 hit at the start of your magic phase will do some decent damage, and that's before you start casting LOTS of direct damage treesinging spells.

So, given a safe, powerful base from which to hide your high-cost vulnerable mages, and to launch attacks from, you can also use your forest moving power on any other forests about. Use them to block off enemy units, forcing them to either slog through the forest making them vulnerable to your direct damage spells or simply taking them out of the game due to the time it will take for them to get clear.

When moving forests, don't just blindly put them in the way of your enemy, but consider ways to place them so that he cannot simply turn his models 90 degrees and keep walking. For example:


EEE
EEE
fff
fffstops your opponent from moving forward, but he can still turn to the right and walk around.

On the other hand:


EEE
EEEfff
fff... makes it much more difficult for him to get to you (assuming your troops were "southeast" of his position. He basically must spend either a turn reforming, or make some wheels which will eat up nearly all his movement. Come your turn, just push the forest at him again.

Thus, that basic little 4+ spell can stop a unit from having much of any impact on the game, without ever even doing any damage to him.

Of course, this requires more forests on the table, and that depends on the battlefield you're playing on, so how useful it will be depends entirely on the terrain. Still, even if you've only got your own forest, don't underestimate how useful it can be as a base of sorts, and don't hesitate to use it to block off his units even if you are using it as a base. After all, if he enters the forest, he's playing right into your hands.

In the trees, we have all the advantages.

Wintersdark
06-10-2005, 10:23
More on trees....

I kept finding myself looking at forests with a measure of dread. For most armies, forests are very dangerous places - not because they hurt you, but being unable to march in them AND moving at half speed means if your unit ends up in one, it's going to be in there for a very long time and will likely have no effect on the game.

With a Wood Elf army, we need to remember not to look at forests that way. Forests are our friends. They don't slow us down at all, we can move them around, we can strike at anyone who does enter or, if we have the right spells, even comes near them. Not to mention the amazing usefulness of the Moonstone of Hidden Paths.

This brings up the issue of selecting table sides, assuming, of course, you get to choose which side you take.

If there are forests on only one table side, you may well be better off giving that side to your opponent. You'll get your own forest you can put down on your side. This way, you don't need to "march" the forests on your table side into "interfering with the enemy" range, they start there :) If you've taken a Moonstone, it also provides a handy doorway to your opponent.

Of course, forests on your table side work wonderfully too. For example, you can use them as great places to deploy your Glade Guard(or move them into ASAP), where they will be protected from missile fire (-1 to hit for cover) and be able to fire safely throughout the game. They make VERY good bait, there. If you can draw your opponent into the forest, he'll get bogged down and be very vulnerable there.

Keep your mage with the Deepwood Sphere on an Elven Steed (or unicorn, but that's pretty pricy) so she can quickly run into any forest your opponent was foolish enough to enter. Those piles of S5 hits will make a mess out of nearly any unit :)

Anyways, I realise most of these last few posts have been pretty basic, but I just wanted to bring it to mind. Forests are a huge, huge bonus for Wood Elves, but it's easy to slide back into the old mindset of treating forests as largely impassible terrain - I know that was my opinion of forests when I fielded my greenskins!!

amagi
06-10-2005, 11:32
I've found that the Deepwood Sphere is of very limited use. It sounds awesome, so at first I kept taking it. But any decent opponent will quickly realize that going into the woods is a mistake, and he won't do it unless he absolutely has to. So the Sphere will act, at best, as a deterrent in most games (if the enemy knows or just suspects that you have it), which takes the fun out of it. But with or without the item, most of the time he'll avoid the woods due to Treesinging and Fury of the Forest, plus the fact that most of your units will have an advantage in the woods and can root him out. Unless I want to go magic-heavy, in almost every Wood Elf army I take a single Level 2 and give him Calaingor's Stave and a Dispel Scroll. Along with the Treeman's bound spell he has a fair chance of getting Treesinging off, what with you being able to cast it 5 times per turn. Every game I've taken him I manage several Treesinging spells. It's not a devastating amount of magic but compared to what a typical lone level 2 can accomplish it's a big advantage. I might take the Sphere in 3000 pt. games, in addition to the Stave.

Wintersdark: You said you're planning on using your flying units, etc. to run down wizards early in the game. Like you said, it sounds good on paper, but I wouldn't expect that to be very reliable. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against the combination of units you took--quite the contrary. I'm just saying that to expect them to frequently run down wizards from the start is overly-optimistic.
This really isn't directed at you, but in general I've noticed that people seem to give far too much emphasis to "mage hunting." They talk about taking units for the primary purpose of mage hunting. This is strange to me. Yes, units that can accomplish that are great, and yes, sometimes they will actually catch one in the open. But there are lots of ways to protect your mages, and I can't think of many cases where a decent opponent would just let his mages be charged or shot at in the first few turns. All of the "mage hunting" units in the Wood Elf list are good choices, but that's because they can fulfill many other roles as well. Being able to occasionally run down a mage that strays into the open is just a bonus.

amagi
06-10-2005, 12:11
By the way, with regard to the Rare choice discussion above, I prefer Waywatchers and Treeman. The Treeman, for obvious reasons. The Waywatchers, because in most of my armies the primary goal is to find the combination that best maximizes both the shooting and the mobile strike force element of the army. Waywatchers fill this role, because not only will their shots come in handy, but in many situations they can advance and attack, either alone against weaker targets like archers, war machines, mages, etc., or in a joint charge with another unit--they're great for this because of course the biggest challenge in joint charging is to position two of your units on different sides of the enemy. Additional hand weapons are awesome.
So yes, other units can fill in for their march blocking or their shooting, but no other unit quite combines their ability to position themselves to attack while at the same time providing decent shooting (incidentally, their Lethal Shot thing has done nothing for me so far).
-------------------------
Can someone expand on the Noble on an Eagle? I see a lot of the benefits but the alternatives still seem more attractive to me. He's not that expensive but he's not exactly cheap either--183 points if you max out on items. Given that you could get whole units of most of the other choices in the army list for that cost (or even two units), what justifies the Noble over the alternatives? Sure he's manouverable, but so is most of the rest of the army. And he's very vulnerable to shooting or magic, so you'd often have to be hiding him for much of the game. And being on an Eagle, it's much harder to hide him--he can't use proximity to friendly troops, can't go in the woods, and can't join a unit. So can someone convince me he's worth it? Cause I'd really love to take a flying Hail of Doom Arrow.

Zeb
06-10-2005, 12:51
Nice to see you again Winters! ;)

I concur with amagi, even tough WE are the best magehunting army out there, followed by Nurgle and Lizzies, it's not that good...
After a few games I have delt withjmages the same way I usually do, run down the unit they are in...
The list has potential, but it doesn't live up to it.

I run a cav army, and from my point of weiw, I have one unit that costs more than 192 ponits (and ok, one character as well), with two standards in the army. This is the same aproach as with my Druchii, no units can cost more that 220pts (Hydra). It makes me belive that even if I lose a unit, it's not the end of them world.

Going magic heavy, I have found out that Ariels Blessing and the Wild Hunt is the life savers for me...;)

hsiehlt
06-10-2005, 15:16
About rare choices again:

I'm not sure waywatchers can be deployed in such a way to affect march movements on turn one. This seems really risky to me with the abundance of flyers and skirmishers out there. Granted, waywatchers might be able to stand and shoot them into a panic test, but safer deployment of waywatchers is probably a better idea. At this point in terms of pure march blocking, scouts with banner of zennith should be pretty equivalent. Most games around here have terrain pieces in the middle of the board and combine that with the extra woods we are able to place in pitched games (most common) seems to be a perfect place for super march blockers.

As for waywatcher shooting, particularly killing blow, I think you have to get pretty lucky with them. If you take a squad of six, you would average less than one KB a turn. Still very good compared with our lack of anti-armor. I wasn't planning on taking altered lore with bow of loren and arcane bodkins (spelling?), but he could average 2 dead knights a turn. This would be rather deadly and could be taken in place of waywatchers freeing up treeman/eagle for rares. Banner of Zennith Scouts would take over marchblocking role. Do you think this is a good compromise approach?

Eldaron
06-10-2005, 16:07
Concerning rare choices:
in 2k points I usually use either 2 Treemen or an Ancient and a Treeman, together with a BSB and a Lvl2 Mage. Yeah, the list usually doesn`t have THAT much magic defense and offense, but actually it`s not that bad. The Ancient and Treeman are expensive, but those points are usually quite safe (sure, you shouldn`t position them right in front of 3 Bolt Throwers, but who would do such a thing anyway?), especially with the BSB. Treemen are usually not that easy to be left aside, due to marching and their shooting attack and especially due to the fact that the other units in the list are inexpensive most enemies have to attack the treemen sooner or later.

As for magic: If you plan on taking a Spellweaver I would give him the Lore of Life (especially since it has been revisited some time ago). WE magic is nice but it does not build up enough pressure on the opponent, but that can be achieved through the Lore of Life.

KasanovaH
06-10-2005, 18:20
ive been playing around with the Noble on Eagle with the Terror Sprite. he goes after the low leadership units and mages. Often times i find a mage in low leadership units so its 2 birds with one stone. I use a second Eagle to go around and cause trouble so that my opponent has 2 things harassing while the rest of my army takes pot shots and the treeman walks up along side the Glade riders

Wintersdark
07-10-2005, 00:56
With regards to the Deepwood Sphere: To me, this is much like a Volleygun (though not as dramatic, but fulfilling a similar role). It's a massive deterrent. Against an even reasonably intellegent opponent, a volleygun will never inflict any noteworthy damage, because he'll never put a unit in such a position as to allow the VG player to bring it to bear. However, even if one doesn't fire the gun throughout the game, it serves a very real, very useful purpose.

Knowledge that one of your models has the Sphere will garauntee that people stay the hell out of your forests. For a mere 25 pts, this is pretty damn useful. A player may well risk a few spells (if they've got adequate dispelling power/scrolls) for a turn in order to get at your high-point vulnerable mages... but this is less likely with the sphere as well. This, of course, is assuming open lists. If your opponent doesn't know what you've got, you don't need to take the sphere, just make your opponent THINK you did :)

Eldaron: What do you use a BSB for? To be honest, I'm not really seeing it as a very effective choice in a Wood Elf army. While Woodies are alone (to the best of my knowledge) in their ability to mount a BSB on a flier, their BSB loses his missile weapon, cannot take a new missile weapon, or any weapon other than a spear. He remains very vulnerable, is worth an additional +100 VP's for your opponent, likely with magic items pushing him well over 200 VP's. I suppose being able to fly an additional +1 (or +2 with the war banner) CR into a fight would be helpful, but I think you're paying a VERY hefty premium for that. The cause fear/MR banner is far too expensive - making him worth around 300 victory points!

Waywatchers: Oh, I certainly didn't mean taking them for an anti-armour roll - they won't get very many killing blow hits, so I wouldn't rely on that - I more meant that if you didn't have a better target, at least you had some chance of killing off armoured foes - something scouts just don't have. They can indeed be placed to stop marching on turn one - easily if you have first turn, but depending on terrain possible even if your opponent goes first. You just need somewhere to place them within 8" but out of LOS - though your opponent likely won't provide that once he learns what a pain they can be. So, turn 1 march blocking will largely require your getting the first move.

Scouts with Banner of Zenith: Don't get too hung up on that banner. It sounds pretty good (I was pretty stoked about it originally too) but consider the added value for your opponent to kill that unit off. If he runs them down in close combat, he's getting a +100 VP bonus for their standard, as well as the added value to the unit itself (+37 pts for the banner and standard bearer). They can march block without that banner too, remember - just not over quite as large an area.

I'd most likely consider the banner if I was doing the "forest fortress" thing, so that I could plant them in a forest my opponent was too afraid to enter. Maybe a good way to lure your opponent INTO a forest, though... :)

Still, don't forget they can march block on their own just fine too.

Mage Hunting: For many armies, mage hunting is VERY difficult. A lot of people tout it as the solution to magic woes, but for many people it's not an option as they lack the ability to do so effectively. When I played Dark Elves, for example

Wood Elves, however, DO have the ability to do it effectively. You don't need to catch a wizard on his own - charge the unit he's in. Warhawks are very effective this way, because they will fall back when they (inevitably) lose combat. Eagles still work, though: if the mage is already wounded, it's well worth charging the eagle into the unit to kill him, even though your eagle is likely doomed. It's very difficult(though not impossible) to hide a mage from kamikaze fliers - particularly when the mage cannot hide in a forest. Furthermore, Wood Elves have a few Sniper options, allowing them to pick off mages hiding in units. This makes a very effective option for wounding a mage before kamikaze charging with fliers. An hero with both the Hunters Talon and Pageant of Shrikes can be very useful for that(or the two of them on two seperate models too). Both of these can be used to pick off mages regardless of if they are in units or hiding around them.

I'll frontally charge a unit with a unit of Glade Riders (I frequently did this with my Dark Elves) to kill off mages too. I'll happily sacrifice a 120 pt fast cav unit to kill a ~160-180 pt mage, particularly if he's not used his dispel scrolls etc first.

Of course, this sort of 50-50 sacrificial mage hunting is only worthwhile if you want full magical superiority or to cut down on his. An army with little magic is often not worth mage hunting against, particularly risking your own units to do it, because his magic won't do anything anyways.

Hero on a Great Eagle: I've actually been won over to this from the Alter noble, actually. While he cannot hide in the forest, he doesn't need to worry so much about magic - I field an army with solid magic defence. If a mage moves into LOS of my hero in order to attempt to cast at him, he's likely vulnerable to a direct charge from that same hero, and I won't hesitate to do that. VS. shooting is an issue, but the noble on an eagle is quite effective at dealing with shooters. Currently, I'm equipping him with Light Armour, Shield, Spear, Helm of the Hunt and the Hail of Doom arrow. Typically, turn one he flies into position, uses the HoD to eliminate a threat (units of archers, war machines), then can make a supporting charge on a unit in combat to earn some extra wounds, or hunt down light troops. He IS vulnerable, but so is nearly everything else. I consider his eagle as basically a 3+ ward save - he's only hit on a 5 or 6 from shooting attacks after all. He can fly into position, launch his HOD, then if the Eagle is killed, continue on foot. While he'd lose the mobility and +1S on the charge with the spear, he can default to HW/Shield in combat getting him 4 attacks on the charge at S4, with a 3+ armour save.

Yes, unlike Glade Riders, he cannot negate ranks. However, those glade riders aren't quite as mobile, can be march blocked, and don't pack a Hail of Doom arrow, and offer a similar offense.

Wintersdark
07-10-2005, 01:00
ive been playing around with the Noble on Eagle with the Terror Sprite. he goes after the low leadership units and mages. Often times i find a mage in low leadership units so its 2 birds with one stone. I use a second Eagle to go around and cause trouble so that my opponent has 2 things harassing while the rest of my army takes pot shots and the treeman walks up along side the Glade riders

I'd use this, but only in games where I knew what army I was facing before hand. I wouldn't field him in a tournament setting, as his usefulness is GREATLY degraded vs targets immune to his Terror.

Also, it depends on what else you have in your army. Terror is wonderful, but having more than 2 terror causers is usually redundant. Enemy troops only have to make one terror test each per game, so having lots of terror causers is often wasted.

Still, I used a terror causing noble on a dark peggie with my DE a number of times to great effect. He's just a very specialised character who only really comes into his own under specific circumstances.

Xavier
07-10-2005, 06:44
Also, it depends on what else you have in your army. Terror is wonderful, but having more than 2 terror causers is usually redundant. Enemy troops only have to make one terror test each per game, so having lots of terror causers is often wasted.


I thought each unit has to take terror tests for each terror causing thing, but once they take it the unit that caused the terror just causes fear from then on or somthing similar.

So you can take two terror causing things and make a unit take 2 terror tests in the game, no?

Wintersdark
07-10-2005, 08:05
I thought each unit has to take terror tests for each terror causing thing, but once they take it the unit that caused the terror just causes fear from then on or somthing similar.

So you can take two terror causing things and make a unit take 2 terror tests in the game, no?

Nope, you(a unit) only takes one terror test per game, period. Once a unit has made a terror test (and succeeded or failed) he treats terror as fear for the remainder of the game - regardless of the source.

T10
07-10-2005, 09:26
You can still benefit from multiple Terror-causing creatures.

If you have one then the higher lieadership of the General will tend to gravitate towards it. Terror only counts if the test fails. If multiple units take their Terror test at the General's Leadership then the effect is pretty much wasted.

With two Terror-causing creatures you can reliably affect multiple units outside the command distance of the General.

-T10

Sinew
07-10-2005, 09:40
T10 makes a good point, however I still favour Wintersdark's Eagle rider (which is really similar to mine, go figure...) over one with the Blight of Terrors. I think the advantage of being able to shoot the HoDA is particularly useful for him, as it makes the Eagle very adept in winning battles against enemy light cavalry on the first turn while he is also getting into position to do whatever it is he's doing. I prefer to give him a great weapon though, as I think it's useful to be able to bust tough stuff like chariots and take charges without having to rely on S4. Often my main opponent's pegasus riders really frustrate my wolf boyz flanking maneuvers because he doesn't even have to maintain a stalemate, he can just move out in front of them knowing the wolf boyz will be smashed by his great weapon armed captain if they try to attack him.

amagi
07-10-2005, 10:29
Regarding mage hunting with an Eagle--sure you can do a kamikaze run on a mage in a unit, but the chances of it succeeding are slim. Average number of wounds caused against a T3 mage is 0.89. Against T4 it's 0.66. So even if you've got the mage down to 1 wound chances are you won't kill it unless you're slightly luckier than average. And the Eagle will probably break or die against most units. I would only do it if I desperately needed to take down a particular mage.

With Warhawks your chances are better since you can get 2 models facing the mage, but now we're talking about probably a 120-180 pt. unit instead of a 50 pt., so sacrificing them just for a moderate chance of killing a wizard is often not worth it. Hit-and-run helps of course, but a good opponent will know quite well that you can charge the wizard, so often he'll just put it in a particularly tough combat unit, with maybe a combat character on the front lines, meaning that your unit is all the more likely to die.

Taking those sniping items helps of course, but they're so hit-or-miss I wouldn't take them in a 2000 pt. game unless I knew ahead of time I was going up against a magic-heavy army.

So I just don't buy the argument that mage hunting is so devastating. Obviously it can be very useful under the right circumstances, and obviously WE are good at it. But to view it as anything other than an occasional opportunity to exploit is wrong. It's certainly not the consistent, sure-fire anti-magic strategy that some make it out to be. By all means take the units that excel at mage-hunting and be on the lookout for stray wizards, but take them for their other virtues first and foremost, and don't plan a general strategy around mage hunting.
-----------------------------------
Re: the WE having the only flying Battle Standard. Bretonnia can take a BSB on a Pegasus I believe.
And as for the usefulness of BSBs for WE, I'd say they're clearly a must if you take sizable units of Eternal Guard with a character in them. Put a Treeman or two next to the Eternal Guard (and give the EG unit a 5+ Ward Save with that one Talisman) and suddenly the opponent is practically facing a Dwarf battle line in terms of staying power. Now if you take a Treeman Ancient instead, I can definitely see the merits of taking a BSB just for him, but personally I wouldn't, unless the army's designed to have a conventional battle line (of EG, Treekin, etc.). I'd prefer to just have the Ancient avoid any combats he'd usually lose.

Eldaron
07-10-2005, 13:21
Eldaron: What do you use a BSB for? To be honest, I'm not really seeing it as a very effective choice in a Wood Elf army. While Woodies are alone (to the best of my knowledge) in their ability to mount a BSB on a flier, their BSB loses his missile weapon, cannot take a new missile weapon, or any weapon other than a spear. He remains very vulnerable, is worth an additional +100 VP's for your opponent, likely with magic items pushing him well over 200 VP's. I suppose being able to fly an additional +1 (or +2 with the war banner) CR into a fight would be helpful, but I think you're paying a VERY hefty premium for that. The cause fear/MR banner is far too expensive - making him worth around 300 victory points!

Actually I`m not giving him anything at all. It is basically a naked BSB. The point is that you have him around for the Treemen. If you use 2 treeman or 1 and an Ancient a BSB will nearly garantuee that you have about 700 points the opponent will never get. Sure, the BSB is vulnerable then, but it is not so hard (especially with WE) to play him in a way he will survive nearly all games. That`s actually the only reason for me to take one at all, since it is not that hard to fail a break test with ld8 (or 9, for that matter), but failing it twice hasnīt happened to me so far.

Wintersdark
07-10-2005, 22:23
Regarding mage hunting with an Eagle--sure you can do a kamikaze run on a mage in a unit, but the chances of it succeeding are slim. Average number of wounds caused against a T3 mage is 0.89. Against T4 it's 0.66. So even if you've got the mage down to 1 wound chances are you won't kill it unless you're slightly luckier than average. And the Eagle will probably break or die against most units. I would only do it if I desperately needed to take down a particular mage. I do agree there - It's pretty rough to get two wounds out of a 2 attack eagle. For me, .89 is good enough to risk a 50 pt eagle vs. a mage worth over three times the point cost, particularly when the eagle will most likely NOT die, and, assuming an infantry unit, most likely flee to safety. He MAY die, but it's unlikely. He's much more likely to simply flee to safety.


With Warhawks your chances are better since you can get 2 models facing the mage, but now we're talking about probably a 120-180 pt. unit instead of a 50 pt., so sacrificing them just for a moderate chance of killing a wizard is often not worth it. Hit-and-run helps of course, but a good opponent will know quite well that you can charge the wizard, so often he'll just put it in a particularly tough combat unit, with maybe a combat character on the front lines, meaning that your unit is all the more likely to die.I wouldn't do this if there was a combat character beside the wizard - that's just foolish. As to the unit... few units will destroy the warhawk unit in a single round of attacks. Those few that would often belong in armies with wizards that are too hard for the warhawks anyways (chaos sorcerers). Otherwise, not problem. They will survive, and fall back. I only ever take 3 warhawks - in fact, I'd take two if I could. The fourth one serves no purpose other than bringing more opponents into combat and making the unit cost more.

If the Warhawks only score a single wound on the mage, that's ok, they can hit again next turn, or the eagle can, etc.


Taking those sniping items helps of course, but they're so hit-or-miss I wouldn't take them in a 2000 pt. game unless I knew ahead of time I was going up against a magic-heavy army. I like to have one or the both of them somewhere in my army - I found with empire having a long rifle stashed somewhere was often handy. They certainly aren't reliable enough to actually.. well, rely on them, but they can be very handy to have around.


So I just don't buy the argument that mage hunting is so devastating. Obviously it can be very useful under the right circumstances, and obviously WE are good at it. But to view it as anything other than an occasional opportunity to exploit is wrong. It's certainly not the consistent, sure-fire anti-magic strategy that some make it out to be. By all means take the units that excel at mage-hunting and be on the lookout for stray wizards, but take them for their other virtues first and foremost, and don't plan a general strategy around mage hunting.

It's not. I'm not a big advocate of mage hunting as an anti-magic defense, not at all. In fact, I don't feel it's a viable magic defense AT ALL. It's too hit or miss - some armies are easy to hunt mages with, some not; and some armies mages are huntable, and some not. It's NOT a good strategy to base your army on.

I take adequate magical defense/offense to be able to use it either way, however, killing off mages makes my magic better, so I do try to do it whenever I've got a chance.

From a Woodie perspective, it can be (vs armies with easily huntable mages) a very effective way to both boost your own magical effectiveness and, perhaps more importantly, score a few easy VP's. It's NOT something to plan general strategy around, and I apologize if I ever gave that impression.

Those troops - Eagle, Warhawks, ect - aren't there specifically for mage hunting. They are there to pick on any light targets - skirmishers, fast cav, war machines; mages are just a wonderful bonus if the opportunity arises. Having them around to deal with such things frees up my glade riders for acting as combat support rank negaters.



Re: the WE having the only flying Battle Standard. Bretonnia can take a BSB on a Pegasus I believe.I wasn't sure if the brets could or not



And as for the usefulness of BSBs for WE, I'd say they're clearly a must if you take sizable units of Eternal Guard with a character in them. Put a Treeman or two next to the Eternal Guard (and give the EG unit a 5+ Ward Save with that one Talisman) and suddenly the opponent is practically facing a Dwarf battle line in terms of staying power. To be honest, I'm not seeing that as such a good idea, though I agree that's the way to go it your really into the Eternal Guard solid battle line thing.

The problem you run into is if you take the EG unit with the Talisman, the Highborn carring the Talisman has likely a 4+ or 5+ armour save and the 5+ ward, and he's worth somewhere around 350 VPs (there's still a 100 VP bonus for the general, right? Can't remember). Further painting a HUGE bullseye on said general is the fact that if he dies, the EG unit will lose stubborn (unless you've got a Noble in the unit as well). I spent a while working on lists centering around a battle line, but the end result was that you end up investing a LOT of points into very fragile units, and the solidity of the line (stubborn etc) is very easy to cut out by killing off the characters, something not too hard to accomplish.

Not to say it can't work, I just don't think it'll be a LOT more difficult to play effectively than it seems.


Now if you take a Treeman Ancient instead, I can definitely see the merits of taking a BSB just for him, but personally I wouldn't, unless the army's designed to have a conventional battle line (of EG, Treekin, etc.). I'd prefer to just have the Ancient avoid any combats he'd usually lose.I certainly wouldn't take a BSB just for him - paying around 100 points just to give my treeman a reroll on his stubborn 9 roll? Yikes... I'd far rather, as you say, just keep him out of combats he's certain to lose.

Basically, your BSB doesn't do much of anything else - he can't fight (no defense), he can't shoot (no missile weapons), so all he does it provide a reroll. That reroll is good, certainly, but I think when you compare the value of a more aggresive character, he pales in comparison.

I mean, you could have the BSB providing a reroll, or an Alter/Eagle noble running amok, or someone packing a Hail of Doom arrow, etc, etc.

Wintersdark
07-10-2005, 22:25
Actually I`m not giving him anything at all. It is basically a naked BSB. The point is that you have him around for the Treemen. If you use 2 treeman or 1 and an Ancient a BSB will nearly garantuee that you have about 700 points the opponent will never get. Sure, the BSB is vulnerable then, but it is not so hard (especially with WE) to play him in a way he will survive nearly all games. That`s actually the only reason for me to take one at all, since it is not that hard to fail a break test with ld8 (or 9, for that matter), but failing it twice hasnīt happened to me so far.

I definately wouldn't take one for one treeman (even an ancient)... I can see the arguement for 2, although I still think your better off just making sure your two treemen aren't losing so many combats in the first place :)

I just don't like giving up so many points for a character that doesn't do anything else.

Eldaron
08-10-2005, 12:33
The point is, the treemen are usually not in my army for picking their combats the way the rest of my units do. Sure, I wonīt send them into a combat when I am absolutely sure they will die in 1 or 2 rounds, but those combats are really few (even most heav cav can`t do this). I WANT the enemy to attack the ancient/treemen in order to block his units. The opponent just can`t evade them the whole game, he WILL attack them sooner or later (most of the time rather sooner) or he usually doesn`t get enough points out of the game (especially armies like brets will attack them no matter what). The BSB is there to ensure this will work. If I have a model that costs 300-400 points I sure as hell don`t want it to be run down just because I had one bad roll. Yeah, I`m paying another 100 points for that but in the end that makes around 800 points of my army the enmy will virtually never get and that is actually what makes the ancient/treeman/BSB combination worth it.

hsiehlt
08-10-2005, 13:32
Ideas about treekin: Can treekin be a cheaper, yet as effective replacement for treeman in terms of whacking cavalry and tough stuff? Treekin don't have stubborn, but better placement and use would counteract that fact. While its impossible to replace strangleroot attack and treesinging, the treekin aren't large targets and have more attacks. The terror on treeman is nice, but not really that useful on a m5 model. I haven't seen much discussion on treekin...

One of my rare choices will always be taken by the great eagle. Its simply too good and cheap. Would you rather have scouts and treeman? Or would rather have waywaytchers and treekin?

Wintersdark
08-10-2005, 15:41
Honestly, I'm not seeing Treekin as a replacement for Treemen at all - they are entirely different units with entirely different purposes.

Terror on a Treeman is merely a nice bonus.

The value of treemen is that they provide a large, hitty, solid model that can reliably pin a unit down in one place for a while. Treekin can't do that - if charged by ranked infantry or a solid heavy cav unit, they will most likely lose combat - as would the treeman - but lacking Stubborn, they will quite likely break. Further, lacking the Treeman's armour save and sporting a much wider frontage, more models will be able to engage them (thus more attacks against the treekin), wounding more readily (less save, lower toughness)

Not to say treekin are bad - they are a very nice unit. Hitty, solid, reliable. They're just not able to take a charge like a treeman can. Treekin are a much more effective combined-charge type unit. Supported with Dryads or Wardancers, Treekin add a solid whump of combat ability without potentially offering up extra VP's. Further, unlike the wardancers and dryads, Treekin are capable of breaking ranks - something few things in the Wood Elf list can do.


On this issue of waywatcher/treeman vs. Eagle/treeman - I'm fully aware that the waywatchers are a fantastic unit and would certainly be more useful than the eagle, but they also cost several times more points. The Eagle is a very useful unit, if not as potent as the waywatchers, but most importantly in this case it's very cheap.

Wintersdark
08-10-2005, 15:49
Ooops, my bad, I misunderstood your post.

As to whacking tough stuff - this is where the treekin shine, but in my opinion they are not replacing/acting as a subsitute for treemen in that, I think they are actually better at it. Like I was saying earlier, I feel the treeman's best use is in his solidity - able to tie up units in close combat and actually do some damage too. The treekin aren't so good at that, but still generate a significant offensive punch at a greatly reduced cost in compasion to the treeman.

Still, I'm not really using the treekin yet (I'll get to them in time). I'm playing more with wardancers at the moment, as I'm somewhat leery of the Treekins' comparatively limited mobility, actually having to wheel, with a wide frontage to boot... unlike everything else in my list. It may prove to be somewhat difficult, because your opponent will typically rather charge Treekin than a Treeman - you want your opponent charging either Glade Riders (who'll flee) or the Treeman, who just won't go anywhere :)

Eldaron
08-10-2005, 16:07
That`s exactly why I took treekin only once in my games. treekin and treemen are entirely different units for entirely different purposes. the main asset of a treeman is that he is very hard to kill and (especially in combination with a BSB) very hard to break, which makes him THE number one for tying up nearly any unit. He can`t be evaded that good (still 10" march and trangelroot and the fact that sooner or later the opponent has to charge or will be charged himself) and will soak some damage while still standing and tying up the unit. Terror is a nice bonus, but the main advantages are the high T, many wounds, good AS and being stubborn. The fact that he indeed can kill something is just a nice bonus.

treekin however are not that hood at taking charges. Sure, light cavalry wonīt do much damage but that`s about it. They are not stubborn, are more easily wounded and the armour save is not as good. That means if they are charged by anything else you will either loose one or two of them and then break due to outnumbering, banner etc. (i.e. against heavy cav) or they will break due to the fact that they con`t score enough wounds.
They are an attack unit. If you can`t attack with them, they won`t be getting you anywhere. And I personally don`t like that, because compared to other WE units they are not very maneuvarable and point intensive.

amagi
08-10-2005, 16:20
Re: the number of Warhawks in a unit. Sure, I can see the argument for 3, but I prefer 4. With 3 you only have to kill one (do a measly 2 wounds against T3 armour save 6+) to take away their +1 flank or +2 rear bonus on a charge. Given that I ideally want to be using them for exactly this purpose as much as possible--joint charging with my other units--and that they're so well suited to position on the rear or flank, I'd prefer the extra two wounds.
Also I disagree with the argument that a 4th Warhawk just brings more enemies into combat. Most of the time it doesn't. With corner to corner, 3 Warhawks against the majority of infantry units will already bring every enemy into combat. But a 4th does give you the extra 2 attacks.
And it's only 160 vs. 120, which is not that big of a deal for the advantages you get.

Re: the Lord in an Eternal Guard unit with Treeman/men battle line. Yes I agree that it's risky putting your somewhat fragile Lord in the front lines like that. I struggled with this but determined that it's well worth it. The key here is to take Annoyance of Nettlings as your other magic item along with the 5+ ward-save-for-the-unit Talisman.

Most things that can easily kill your Lord are characters. Making them only hit on 6's is incredibly powerful. With a 5+ Ward Save and needing 6's to hit him he's fairly sturdy, though certainly not invincible (I'd give him a great weapon, light armour and shield--this way you can choose hand-weapon-shield for a 4+ armour save if you really need to). You can always have him leave the unit in those rare cases where you know he'll die if he gets charged. Your battle line will still be relatively tough without the Stubborn, and at least he'll get away.

Like someone said, having so many points tied up in an awesomely durable battle line, especially with the Treeman, warrants the points on the BSB. As for serving a purpose beyond his reroll, unfortunately the Wood Elf item list is lacking in this department, but if you like those sniper items at least you can give him the "hochland" Spite. I think they should have made the magic items better in this regard, but nevertheless his reroll is worth it even if you take nothing else on him. I'd take the Spite I think and that's it. Of course you could give him the teleport-unit item and jump the eternal guard across the board, but then that ruins the whole battle line plan. Might be interesting in some scenarios though.

All that being said, I'd like to play these types of battle-line armies occasionally, but I prefer (and will collect) the more mobile small units type.

amagi
08-10-2005, 16:59
Some fun with math:
You've got your Lord in the Eternal Guard unit. He's got The Rhymer's Harp (5+ Ward Save for him and his unit) and An Annoyance of Netlings (enemy needs 6's to hit him in a challenge).
Suddenly, a Strength 5, 5 Attack Lord with a great weapon, mounted on a Dragon charges!!!!
You declare a challenge, he has to accept.

The enemy Lord plus his Dragon does 0.926 wounds to your fragile little elf, on average.......
You do 1.111 to the Dragon with your great weapon.
Not so fragile an elf after all.

With 3 ranks, a Standard, the War Banner, and outnumber the big scary Dragon Lord loses by 7.

Sure the enemy characters will sometimes have units behind them as well, but the point is your elf is a pretty tough character, and his unit is awesome.

Deadseed
08-10-2005, 21:13
Now do that math again with the Lord being charged by a unit of Witch Elves or Wardancers or something else with a lot of attacks, and no Hero or Champion to challenge.

amagi
08-10-2005, 21:37
The point was to show the durability of the character, specifically. Yes, the biggest threat to him is a tough non-character model attacking him specifically (like a Dragon Ogre, etc.). But don't forget this--if there is such a unit coming at your Eternal Guard and you really need to stop them, there just happens to be 1 or even 2 Treemen standing right next to them. Walk your Treeman up in front of the EG and the problem is solved. You won't be able to do this in every case of course but it's a nice trick to keep in mind.

Incidentally here's the math for a unit of Wardancers charging the EG with Lord and Champion. Let's say 7 Wardancers can attack against a 5 model wide EG unit. 3 attack the Lord and the others the unit. The Wardancers use their +1 attack dance.

They score 1.5 wounds against the Lord (out of 9 attacks) or just 1.00 wound if he uses his hand-weapon-shield. And 2.963 wounds against the Eternal Guard. Let's just give them 3.

So the EG attack back with 8 attacks (3 died in the front row but the Champion is still there). They do 1.666 wounds. We'll say just 1. Now the Lord attacks and does 1.85 with a great weapon or 1.48 with hw/shield. Give him 1.

Wardancers got: 4 wounds (1 on the Lord)
EG+Lord got: 2 wounds
+3 for rank +1 for Standard +1 for outnumber +1 for War Banner = 8

Wardancers lose by 4, and they had only a slightly better chance of wounding the Lord than the big-scary-Lord-on-a-Dragon--they'd do about 0.07 more wounds on average.

Satisfied?? :)

Wintersdark
08-10-2005, 22:53
Honestly, the biggest threat to that elf lord isn't a big thing attacking him.. well, that may be more dangerous, but it's less likely to occur.

The biggest threat to that big stubborn EG unit with highborn is another ranked infantry unit.

Yes, at first, those Eternal Guard are rock hard. But they won't keep it. Once players get used to dealing with EG, what I would imagine happening is this: Ranked multi-attack infantry charges. Highborn challenges. Other player declines, moves his champ to the back of the unit (or character, if there was one there). Other player then proceeds to direct every attack he possibly can at the highborn.

That Lord may well survive the first round. Do you think he'll survive round 2? Particularly with a great weapon?

In your scenario, you're always comparing the EG unit vs. non ranked troops. Once you get ranked troops in there, things get ugly. Ranked infantry (with a LORD in them) will always do very well against single models and (particularly frontally) charging skirmishers.

I played Dark Elves for years, and I learned an important fact. An elf character on foot does not have a lot of staying power in combat. And that's considering an elf with a much better armour save (thanks to the SDC, and actual armour options). A wood elf with a 4+ save (and that's with HW/Sh) and a 5+ ward is VERY vulnerable. I do agree on the matter of Netlings though - if you are doing this, it's imperative you take netlings in order to prevent the first big character you come across from crushing you into elf-paste. Even if your opponent doesn't accept the challenge (in order to kick your HB around with standard troops) at least his smashy character is out of the combat.

That said, I don't think the hard-battle-line is BAD per sey, just that you're giving up a large portion of your armies advantages (inherent MSU, incredible mobility, no fixed battle line and thus nowhere to point ones own slower infantry) to be able to play a similar game as other troops. On the plus side, you can be reasonably certain that your EG will stand up to nearly any charge, which is definately a plus.

As far as Elf Infantry goes, Eternal Guard are top notch - a fantastic unit all around, at a very reasonable price. Still, they have a HUGE bullseye painted on them (Look! There's around 500 points in this T3 5+/5+ save unit!) in an army where all the other units are around 120-150 pts.

amagi
08-10-2005, 23:00
Well, that's why your Stubborn battle line is designed to hold up the enemy for a turn or two while your other units charge in from the flank, negating ranks and causing havoc. The HB in the Eternal Guard unit isn't designed to single-handedly smash through things and run them down. It, along with the Treemen, should just trap the enemy and set them up for more charges. That's why those enemy ranked up infantry units should still fear your EG, if you use them properly.
So you're still using the Wood Elves' mobility in a very effective way--positioning those flankers/supporting units.
Anyway, like I said I still prefer the MSU-esque armies, if only for stylistic reasons.

Wintersdark
08-10-2005, 23:03
Of great weapons...

On a Wood Elf character, unless said character is packing the Amber Pendant, I'm *STRONGLY* against great weapons. I know I'm most likely in the minority here, but I'll ramble on anyways.

I can't remember who it was (don't want to look back now I'm in mid-posting) but someone argued for a great weapon on the Eagle Rider w/ Helm of the Hunt and Hail of Doom. Now, for most characters, great weapons are always a very good choice. Even for a large number of Elf characters. However, as a Wood Elf, you're *HURTING* for any kind of defense. That great weapon both cripples your defense (in the case of the eagle rider, giving you a 5+ armour save) AND forces you to strike last in later rounds of combat. For an Elf with no defense, striking last in combat is nearly a death sentence. A spear, while only giving you the strength boost on the charge, allows you to carry a shield boosting your defense to a 4+ save and at least have a chance at killing things in close combat before they can strike at you. Considering your eagle rider is most likely going to be fighting light troops, 5 (including the eagle) S4 attacks is very adequate for dealing with fast cav, most skirmishers, and war machine crews.

I just think a lot of people have become overly enamoured with the glory of great weapons with other armies, and simply take them by default with their characters now.

You're paying for that very high initiative, might as well make use of it.

But, that's just me.

Wintersdark
08-10-2005, 23:15
Time will tell, I suppose. I do think that the EG/Treemen army will work, but I just don't think it will pan out as well as it does on paper.

So many points involved in tarpit troops leaves you in a situation where it's more difficult to encourage your opponent to come to you - thus giving him an opportunity to unleash some ranged hell on said EG troops. Of course, that's getting into a case of "if he ..., I'd..." - I'm looking forward to seeing the battle line style Woodies in tournaments, to see how they fare. Personally, though, I believe the EG is there specifically to cater to people who are afraid to give up the battle line.

EG just aren't very cost effective for what you get. I think a Treeman will tie up a unit in combat as securely as an EG/Highborn unit, and it also poses the (very significant) march-and-strangleroot threat should your opponent not want to charge him. Want more? A second treeman is likely going to do you better. Two treemen and the EG to me is incredibly excessive - you really don't need three tarpits :) The EG does offer a much greater CR boost to a combat, but I think we've got enough support units that offer increase combat ability to not need that boost.

Without the EG, the highborn is unnecessary - may as well take a Spellweaver, or upgrade a treeman to be a Treeman Ancient and save a bunch of points.

Food for thought, anyways.

amagi
09-10-2005, 03:36
All good points, and you're right that these things will make themselves clearer in time.
And I agree about the great weapons, at least if we're talking Eagle riders. I'd still give it to Alter characters, along with a shield, since they can always choose hw/shield if needed.

Wintersdark
09-10-2005, 14:30
Has anyone actually used an Alter yet and had a worthwhile experience with him (positive or negative)?

I'm just curious - I haven't yet, been working on other things right now, but I'm pretty curious about him.

He looks fantastic on paper... but I've a lingering concern about his survivability once he's in combat. He's very hitty, but at T3/W2/crappy armour save, he's *very* frail.

Basically, I'm wondering what people are using him for?

To me, his best use would seem to be as a bonus bit of CR for a fight in progress - he'll surely grab a few wounds, and this would push a fight well into your favour (that's the plan, anyways).

As a light troop hunter, he may be more effective than the Eagle mounted hero - depends on the battlefield, really. His 360 degree LOS will make him very difficult to escape, but he's limited to running around enemies and impassable terrain, whereas the eagle may overfly enemy units and terrain, which is why I've been so into the eagle rider. Running around an army can be a lot more difficult than one would think, whereas flying over it is generally a piece of cake.

The Eagle rider, on the other hand, isn't quite as hitty. The only significant difference is the -1 A, and as considering a Noble's WS he'll be hitting on 3's pretty much all the time anyways. On the other hand, the eagle itself offers an additional two attacks.

If I were playing a low strength list (say, one or no treemen, lots of wardancers/dryads/ect) then the Alter w/ Great Weapon (and shield of course, just in case) would serve a very valuable role, getting some high-strength attacks into a combat where the mounds of low-strength attacks my wardancers and dryads are putting out may just not be enough. However, considering lists with treekin, treemen, ect, you're getting a good whack of high S hits right there.

Anyways, enough rambling (so tired!)... Does anyone have any tales of Alter Nobles in battle they might share?

hsiehlt
10-10-2005, 02:29
About Wild Riders:

Is it better to take one unit of 5 with standard and warbanner and attach a light noble or take 2 units of 5 wild riders? Its possible for the light noble and 5 wild riders to break enemy units if hitting them in a flank. This unit is honestly pretty hard hitting. However, 2 wild rider units can manuever more easily and pull off a combined charge. I have a special slot open so just debating which method is better.

Zeb
10-10-2005, 05:22
Ok, in my cav list I use one unit of 8 with "Banner of Dwindeling" and two units of 6 (one with "Warbanner").
The unit with 8 is to take full advantage of fear/autobreak. It works wonders. I have a Wild Rider noble as well...

But two units it's probably the best idea...

Wintersdark
10-10-2005, 08:41
My only concern with the "breaker unit" of Wild Riders is that (I, at least) fight about half my battles against opponents who won't autobreak for whatever reason (undead, immune to psych, etc) so investing so many points in a unit whose goal is autobreaking opponents is risky. How well does your big WR unit fare against Undead armies, Zeb?

Sinew
10-10-2005, 08:51
I currently have a unit of 7 drafted into my list with the Warbanner, to be fielded in a unit of 7 x 1. That's about the maximum I'd expect to be able to get into combat, so I'd never take a unit bigger than that because a back rank for cavalry always seems to expensive for me. I wouldn't be tempted to put a character in the unit, as you get so little for your points. He doesn't contribut leadership because the unit is immune to psychology, and they're such good fighters with such high mobility I think I'm not going to have too many problems getting them into fights they can win. A noble in the unit is a chunk of extra points and is likely to add maybe 2 wounds to a given combat - I'd rather get a unit of Glade Riders for the same points to guarantee I get the flank charge.

I'm not especially tempted by 2 units of 5 Wild riders because I reckon they benefit from as many attacks as you can get on the charge. Glade Riders I'd take in units of 5, but Wild Riders I'd say bigger.

Zeb
10-10-2005, 08:57
Still very good, Winters... They do well on the charge (usually including a Noble with the Dawnspear (-1 to hit if a wound is suffered)), I have only played two games but both games the unit has ripped appart large numbers of skellies. Usually I set them up to recive a charge, and have a small unit flanking them, either the player charges or get double charged next turn.
With a riding BSB near by I usually make the break test and then just rip him appart. So far the reccord is 28 skellies in a round... But it is due to the fact that I have multiple units. And don't forget to "Lap around".

Let's not forget that WR have WS 5 and two attacks each, and then the steed has another... they are decent at reciving a charge...
But your point is vald, as always, mr. Winters. But there is always some type of armies you can't use Fear to your advantage against. I don't have the same kind of problem as you do. And I like the unit so far.

And I like to tun the WR like this, fear is nice in big numbers (unless if your "stupid" (as our COK's are))...;)

Wintersdark
10-10-2005, 09:11
*nods* To me, the noble is only really worth including to get that dawnspear into the fight. I'm very, very fond of that weapon, particularly in a combined combat where you have multiple units involved - often, some of those units are rather fragile. The more attacks you can get in, and the more you can reduce the effectiveness of the counterattack, the better.

Without the dawnspear, I don't really think a noble is enough of a combat boost over a champion to be worth the vastly increased cost, both in terms of points available to the army, and the value of the unit to the enemy.

Still, thanks to my DE experience, I've learned that there is definately a value to Fear causing autobreak-capable Cav, and ironically our Wild Riders are arguably more hitty than COK are overall, if *slightly* less so on the charge (S3 steeds instead of S4). That additional attack in later rounds is *amazing* for those fights where you get stuck in for another round.

I've often found that Fast Cav flankers suffer that way - after the charge, they are basically just sitting around waiting to die in later rounds of combat. Wild Riders can still actually contribute to the fight, and sport a decent, if not heavy-cavish defense (armour+ward)

28 Skellies? That's a damn nice round :)

You make another good case for the BSB thing... I'd not even considered having WR take charges, although against weaker, particularly WS2 S3 troops I can see how that would work. They hit you on 5's on the charge, then in later rounds they'll likely be hitting your WR and nearly anything else likely to be fighting them on 6's thanks to the dawnspear (considering your noble will strike first due to your high I)

It's odd that we have such a frail list... and yet one so adept at taking charges :) It looks a lot more frail than it actually is.

Zeb
10-10-2005, 09:37
Don't forget that you can booster you combat power in close combat with magic as well, it can be done, an extra attack gives you a load of attacks in the seccond round of combat.
And it works on the charge as medicine against rubber lance/spear syndrome...

Wintersdark
10-10-2005, 09:52
Indeed :) I'm waiting for the opportunity to use the +1 attack spell with Wild Riders in combat on turn 2... 3 S4 attacks + 1 S3 attack each? *cackle*

I'm loving their being fast cav... I went a long time without noticing that they were fast cav :) Not having to hold a formation or even really wheel is fantastic. They are so maneuveable, able to pour through small gaps, change facing and frontage without slowing down... beautiful :) I'll happily give up armour for that!

I love the Wild Riders :)

Reinnon
10-10-2005, 13:04
hi there

well, me and my brother are starting border patrol forces for an upcoming doubles tournie, and i've decided upon wood elves, and him high elves.

i was thinking of taking a lvl 2 spell singer, 2 units of 10 glade glade and a unit of 10 dyrads, while my brother takes a bolt thrower and maybe some cav, with a mage.

good idea? or bad idea?

my later 2000 force is going to be based around the bow of loran + arcane bodkin alter lord, which in test games has proved very effective and a mix between elves (mainly wadancers and glade guard, with maybe a unit of glade riders) and spirits (dyards and wild riders), my real problem is rare choices.

i was considering a treeman, but thats slightly too many points, so i looked into either eagles (for warmachine hunting) or a slightly unusual choice, a halfling hot pot from the DoW list.

for 50 points, this looks like a real bargin, a stone thrower that punches through armour....your thoughts in taking either 2 of these or one and an eagle?

for notes, my planned 1500 point army for a conflict is:

Heroes

Spellsinger: Level 2, 2 dispel scroll

Total: 175

Noble (General): Wardancer Kindred, Moon Stone of the Hidden Way

Total: 140

Core

10 Glade Guard: Musician

Total: 126

10 Glade Guard: Musician

Total: 126

10 Glade Guard: Musician

Total: 126

10 Dyrads

Total: 120

10 Dyrads

Total: 120

5 Glade Riders: Musician

Total: 129

Special

11 Wardancers: Full Command

Total: 219

5 Wild Riders: Full command

Total: 166

Rare

1 Great Eagle

Total: 50

now, this army seems ok in my eyes but really lacks the abilty to punch through ranked up units imo, what should i add? Do i need to add anything?

hsiehlt
10-10-2005, 17:00
About wildriders:

Would you suggest a unit of 6 with warbanner? Seems pretty good compromise of hitting hard, being manuevarable, and good frontage. 2 units of 5 with no standard has its appeal in that it can be better combined with dryads and wardancers. Then again, its kind of nice to have one unit that you can charge hard into a flank and not have to worry about combined charges all the time.

Wintersdark
11-10-2005, 01:40
About the 2 units of 5 wildriders - they can be better combined not just with dryads and such but themselves as well. With 18" charge ranges and fast cav movement, it's pretty easy to set them up so that an unavoidable dual charge (garanteeing a flank/rear) is possible.

Sinew
11-10-2005, 09:39
@Reinnon: army looks fine, let us know how it does. Your skirmishing units are a bit big for my tastes (I only ever include as many as I think will get into base to base combat) and 30 archers is a lot but this really is more a taste thing than a serious issue. You could also save yourself on the level 2 upgrade for the spellsinger if she's only a scroll caddy.

Here's a question for the Asrai players: has anyone been able to find a use for Mericew's Locus? I've thought, pondered, conjectured and ruminated but I can think of absolutely no application for this item. With such specific rules I'm inclined to think that there was a purpose in mind when it was created but I can't see it. With such a low base toughness and very few competitive armour saves, the advantages of depriving enemies of their great weapons seem scarce.

The only character I can see who could half-way get around its disadvantages is a Wardancer, because he can't get a Great Weapon himself, can get killing blow removing the necessity for high S attacks and also has access to the Blades of Loec which allow him to wound without needing to boost his strength. However in his case the benefits of the Locus are feeble because he can't take armour, and he'd have to be a Lord to get the Blades and the Locus!

Can anyone see why it's included?

Reinnon
11-10-2005, 13:53
imo, its only useful when facing cavary heavy armies like brets, and only if the character is on his own and not in a unit, as the bret player will simply choose to attack the reginment around him.

i think the purpose however was meant to character hunting, chaos characters mainly (strength 7 great weapons) in a challenge, however the amber pandent is simply far better at this (as you can strike first with a great weapon)

just my 2 cents, thanks for the comment on the list

Wintersdark
11-10-2005, 17:02
I'm dubious about the locus as it is, but I can see some uses.. although certainly not with wardancer characters! Ack! Their weapons give +1S on the charge, why give that up?!

Still, I could see the value in giving it to a Highborn with the Spirit Sword or other magic weapon that does not grant a strength bonus. Why let your opponent get a bonus when you dont? Those GW wielding characters will suffer, striking last and only at their base strength.

Edit: VS's heavy cav? Don't see that, either, unless you're planning on having a cav unit charge your character (?!)

I think you've hit the nail on the head with character hunting, though. There are units with +S weapons, but as it only affects the character and not the unit he's with (which would make it a VERY cool item), it's less useful there. Still, for character hunting when wielding a magic weapon without a +S bonus, would be handy... but I'd sooner use the shard, if I'm not taking many forest spirits, or a ward save.

Reinnon
11-10-2005, 19:49
well, i fully admit its a pretty weak reason to include it.....but it is an use for it :)

Wintersdark
11-10-2005, 22:45
Yeah.. I like to think I can find better uses for those 20 pts :)

branchwrath
11-10-2005, 23:00
I came up a combination in the Wood Elf list which I think can potentially really punish annoying Scouts and Skirmishers going through trees...

I give my Glamour Weave Kindred Spell Singer the Deep Wood Sphere and stick her on a Unicorn.

You then run her into whatever wood is being contested (she'll probably get there with her fabulous 20'' march range), then...POW a S5 hit to all models within the wood as soon as your Magic phase begins, and IF the guys are still alive (which few if any will be) you can re-roll the results of then casting tree singing on the buggers. And if THAT doesn't kill them all off, your on a Unicorn, and as such will probably be able to take down the few remaining trouble makers...

Just a thought, expensive points wise I know, but I can't wait to try it:D

Wintersdark
11-10-2005, 23:53
Similar, but stronger effect with a magic heavy army. You *own* the forests, and your opponents will never, ever enter them (well, unless you're really lucky anyways).

A reasonably solid magic army (doesn't need to be excessive) with Calaingor's Stave can cast a direct damage treesinging at a singly unit a good many times - that's a LOT of damage :)

I'm looking forward to meeting a buddies thus far unbeated Khornate Demon army :evilgrin: I'll draw all his units into the woods, where they will get bogged down (unable to march, half move) and the sphere, treesinging, and such will mangle them, and leave them vulnerable to all sorts of interesting charges.

*cackle*

Zeb
12-10-2005, 09:46
The way I see it the problem with moving treesining is that it stops when you get in base to base with a unit. And for the damiging Treesinging to work you have to have your opponent inside a forest...
So I actually don't like it that much...

xowainx
12-10-2005, 09:59
Yeah, but that's with the Deepwood Sphere you get a S5 hit on everyone enemy in the wood, and if a unit still decides to hide in one, you can hit them again with tree singing (and again and again if you've taken Calignor's Stave). You can't move a wood into a unit, but you can do things like move it directly in front of them, so they have little choice to enter unless they want to spend another turn or two going around it and risk being attacked by flanking units.

Zeb
12-10-2005, 10:07
But only a fool would enter the wood to begin with. And I would most probably wipe him off the table anyway then. It will be good vs. frenzed troops like Khorne, Witches and Savage Orcs but that's about it...

What bothers me is that a unit isn't in the wood when a wood touches a model. So it's more or less useless.

xowainx
12-10-2005, 10:44
Yeah, but you use the fear your opponent will have of entering by woods to direct their units.. if you place a wood in the centre of the table, they are most likely going to move their forces around it, thus breaking up their battle line and making them more vulnerable.. Things like that, plus forcing scouts to hide somewhere else are just some of the uses.

Eldaron
12-10-2005, 11:36
Unless you plan to use it against frenzy the item is really useless. Usually the enemy won`t move through woods anyway since most of the time it is just faster to go around. The only things moving through woods are (most of the time) scouts/skirmishers in general (or lone chars sometimes), but if the opponent suspects you are using a spellsinger he won`t do that most of the time anyway, sphere or not. Since the Sphere`s hits only work when the enemy unit is in the same forest with you you`d either have to give the item a noble/HB alter or wardancer (since scout and waywatcher kindred are crap) which is just dumb, since you don`t want to give those chars an item for 20 points that perhaps will do some damage in 1 of 10 games. Or you`d have to give it your spellsinger and then he`s either running alone in the forest (oh, come on) or you`d have to give him a bodyguard which means you have another unit standing around in the woods for that. Yeah, you could givbe him a unicorn, but against any opponent worth mentioning that one will probably not survive that long.

amagi
12-10-2005, 13:14
The item is arcane, only for mages.
Anyway, I agree completely with Eldaron. I don't buy the deterrent-value argument.
There are plenty of reasons the enemy will stay out of the woods as it is. All the item does really is dissuade skirmishers and characters from entering the woods. But like he said you have to move your mage into the wood for it to work--which means that if you don't kill the enemy and the enemy has missle weapons, you're in trouble. Charging's not a problem because they'd have to move to within 2 inches first, but since many of the skirmishers you're worried about are shooting scouts, it's highly risky to put a mage next to them. (Taking a Unicorn as protection against this alone is a waste of points, as the mage will only even be able to do his little trick very occasionally.)

Sadly, I'm afraid that this item is more impressive on paper than actually useful. Only if you know you're facing frenzied troops is this a better bet (or possibly beastmen, since beast herd units might be more inclined to go in the woods). In 3000 pts. it's a bit more attractive, since you've got a bit of points to spare and since the larger number of units in the game makes it more likely that some of them will go in the woods. In 2000 pts., especially if it's an either/or decision, take Calaingor's Staff every time, unless you know your opponent is frenzied, etc. (Maybe if you ally with a Slaanesh list and get a Chaos Sorcerer to force the enemy into the woods ......:))

hsiehlt
12-10-2005, 15:25
Speaking of arcane items:

Why is the Divination Orb not very popular? On paper it seems to be the equivalent of cluster of radiants against mid/high magic armies. Most people try to cast spells of 8+ (dangerous for WE cause of fireball and equivalents) with 3 dice. Giving your spellsinger divination orb and scroll makes him the same dispel power as lvl 1 branchwraith with cluster and you get a scroll for the same cost! Also the ability the boost the spellsinger to level 2.

Sinew
12-10-2005, 15:35
The divination orb only works if your opponent puts more than three dice into a spell attempt, therefore it's not that great because that's only really big spells that you'll get the benefit from. Also it's not as useable as the CoR because the enemy will start changing their spell patterns once they realise you have it, and with WE it is often the smaller spells that will do the damage.

hsiehlt
12-10-2005, 19:59
My fault, I just read it as 3 or more...Wishful thinking on my part. 3 dice is the optimal amount for fireball type spells so I thought it would be useful against this realm.

Wintersdark
12-10-2005, 22:13
The direct damage treesinging works very well as a threat. It makes your forests safe because your enemy will not chase you into them. You can always hide in safety there. It's kinda like how a volleygun works - it'll almost never do much of any damage in a game, but it certainly serves as a valid threat.

In two games now I've done this with my L4 - I've given her the sphere, left her plunk in the middle of the forest. She doesn't need LOS for any of her spells, noone has LOS to her. With 7 dispel dice and 2-3 dispel scrolls, noone yet has managed to zap her (of those few who actually had non-LOS zappy spells. She's usually not alone, I typically plant my waywatchers in the forest as well until I want them to jump out. Keeps them safe from being whittled down before combat. Or the treeman.

Then, having half a dozen treesinging spells, I can move the wood - with my really hitty troops - into whatever position I like while I set up my other troops.

Having the wood stop when it moves into an enemy unit isn't a problem at all. Can use those lots of treesinging spells to move woods to block off enemy units. Often, you can take whole units completely out of the game due to their fear of entering a forest coupled with their inability to go around it (every time he turns to get around the forest, the forest just moves to block him again).

Wintersdark
12-10-2005, 22:15
Speaking of arcane items:

Why is the Divination Orb not very popular? On paper it seems to be the equivalent of cluster of radiants against mid/high magic armies. Most people try to cast spells of 8+ (dangerous for WE cause of fireball and equivalents) with 3 dice. Giving your spellsinger divination orb and scroll makes him the same dispel power as lvl 1 branchwraith with cluster and you get a scroll for the same cost! Also the ability the boost the spellsinger to level 2.

Army builder is wrong there, it says 3 or more. It's really not a good item at all, IMHO. Once someone is successfully casting spells with 4+ dice, you're using dispel scrolls because you do not want that spell going off :)

Lion El Jason
12-10-2005, 23:30
The Div Orb isn't used much in regular games...maybe in very large games? In those games you are likely to see more 4+ dice spells. But then again you can afford more scroll caddys...

Scactha
13-10-2005, 08:11
Anyways, enough rambling (so tired!)... Does anyone have any tales of Alter Nobles in battle they might share?
Druchii.net has alot of advanced tactics discussed and a flurry of terms borrowed from RL military. One of the is force multiplier and this is exactly the Alter nobles job. And one which I have found he excels at.


A standard Alter (GW, LA, Helm and HoD) does three things :


Round one he opens up a flank with his HoD. WE by nature have a weak center (our GG goes there) but owns the flanks due to our unprecendented(sp?) mobility. The HoD is the opening of the battle concerning this tactic.
Then he goes into hunting mode which consists of two roles. Now he works in support with the carrier of the Sniper spite and keeps a lookout for enemy mages. Idéally the carrier of the sniper spite picks off the champion of the unit escorting the wizard, if there is one, enabling him to get at the mage round two without intervening challenges.
The second role is the force multiplier meaning he shadows the skirmishers or even the WR to add CR in a combo charge. Those 3 kills on average is a ton and thus he will almost always pay back his investment.


My Alters tally in three games is one orc shaman, one exalted slaanesh champ and a host of light units. Heīs one of the best investments for the points in the game imo. Iīd always use him given the choice.

Eldaron
13-10-2005, 09:24
In two games now I've done this with my L4 - I've given her the sphere, left her plunk in the middle of the forest. She doesn't need LOS for any of her spells, noone has LOS to her. With 7 dispel dice and 2-3 dispel scrolls, noone yet has managed to zap her (of those few who actually had non-LOS zappy spells).

Too risky. First this implies that you are using all (or nearly all) slots for mages which isn`t that great with WE as the WE lore is nice, but it is a supporting lore, nothing that really puts pressure on the opponent and for me that is not enough to waste so many character slots.
Also, few non-LOS spells? Against what opponents are you playing? Many armies have more than enough options in that regard (i.e. Brets, HE, WE, Empire (IIRC)....).

Sinew
13-10-2005, 12:50
@Scactha - excellent post there; I was on the point of writing Alter nobles off altogether but you've really given them a boost in my eyes. Particularly using the Pageant of Shrikes to kill enemy Champions (something it is very good for) to set up the Altered's charge into enemy mages! He still is very vulnerable to spells like Forked Lightning and the Conflagration of Doom - which otherwise might not be much of a threat to a WE army.

amagi
13-10-2005, 13:51
What do people think of taking an Alter Highborn in 2000 pts? With a 2nd Level Spellsinger General as your only other character.
The Alter takes The Oaken Armour (Regeneration) and Amaranthine Brooch (3+ Ward Save against nonmagical attacks).

At 274 pts., is this too many points invested in the Alter?
Compared to a typical Alter Hero (Hail of Doom Arrow and Helm of the Hunt) the Lord has the same number of attacks on a charge and gives up the Arrow.

BUT--the Hero has no save whatsoever beyond a measly 4+ Armour Save, whereas now you have +1 Wound, a 4+ Regeneration save and a 3+ Ward Save (sometimes). As long as you don't position him in easy shot of enemy mages (especially of the fireball throwing variety!!!) he's very well protected and is perfectly designed to take on almost any basic troop as long as they don't have magical attacks, which greatly enhances his ability to survive in his force multiplier role. Not only can he survive the troops' attacks but he doesn't have to worry as much about being caught in the open running around (unless there are lots of mages). Even if it's too dangerous to come out into the open, because of his movement you can often pick and choose which threats you expose him to.

Yes it's a lot of points in this one character, but then again he's well protected and unless you screw up and expose him to the wrong thing, he's fairly likely to survive the game, meaning you've successfully locked away almost 300 pts.

But I worry that it's too risky (in light of the fact that a single fireball can easily take him out), or that simply buying a Hero will let you take something extra that's more useful. Still, it's something to consider.

Of course if you want to take the Bow of Loren/Arcane Bodkin Alter, then you have to take the Lord, but that's another matter. As discussed before, I think this is potentially worth it, especially in shooting heavy armies with lots of scouting units, armies that already have enough hard hitting chargers like Wild Riders, or armies designed for points denial through avoidance, where you're less likely to want to send him into combat.
But many of the armies I'd take are sorely in need of something that hits hard on a charge, so if this is the case the combat Alters are probably the better choice.

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 14:03
Too risky. First this implies that you are using all (or nearly all) slots for mages which isn`t that great with WE as the WE lore is nice, but it is a supporting lore, nothing that really puts pressure on the opponent and for me that is not enough to waste so many character slots.
Also, few non-LOS spells? Against what opponents are you playing? Many armies have more than enough options in that regard (i.e. Brets, HE, WE, Empire (IIRC)....).

heh I play mostly against Skaven, Tomb Kings, Chaos, VC, OK, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

Some games against HE and Empire.

I'm running like above with a L4, L2, Branchwraith upgraded to L1 w/ cluster + Sniper, and an Eagle mounted HOD flinging noble.

I started running so much magic because I'm deeply terrified of those non-los zappy spells and even LOS requiring magic missiles and what not. They can rape my army very, very quickly... so, 7 dispel dice, 3 dispel scrolls, NOTHING gets through (barring, of course, I.F.)

amagi
13-10-2005, 14:16
Re: Merciw's Locus, I agree that it's not worth giving to a Wardancer character, since you lose +1S on a charge (which specifically comes from their "Wardancer Weapons"). But it might be nice with one of the magic items that don't give Strength bonuses--particularly the cheaper ones, since with the more expensive weapons you'll probably want to spend the remainder of your points on more reliable protective items.

I was toying around with a Wild Rider Highborn on a Great Stag with The Spear of Twilight (Killing Blow, doesn't "count as a spear" specifically, so no Strength bonus anyway, but I think that Wild Rider characters can still take it), The Oaken Armour (Regeneration) and Merciw's Locus. You've already got decent protection from the Regeneration and your Wild Rider 5+ Ward Save, so with 20 pts. left over the Locus is probably the best choice.

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 14:22
I have to admit, I've gazed longingly at the Alter Highborn. I don't really think he's worth the points, but he'd be so much fun.

The thing is, though, I cannot give up the HotH and HoD on the Alter. If I did the Lord Alter thing, I'd go with:

Light Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom Arrow, Stone of the Crystal Mere. The 3+ ward save against everything is very nice. It may kick out on you early on, or may last... but he shouldn't be subjected to a lot of attacks if you position him well. LA, Shield, and the Helm get him a 4+ armour save, which is pretty good for a WE. I'd really like to get the enchanted shield and sword of might in instead of the standard shield and great weapon, netting us a 3+ armour save all the time an constant S5 on initiative, but I'm not sure where to get the extra 10 points.

Maybe, if you put the HoD elsewhere, you could go that route. I really like the Alter with the HoD, though - his movement makes him ideal for that, and it works very well as a defensive item of sorts (you can move to places that would expose him to shooting, and use the arrow to mess up the shooters.. hopefully, anyways.

Using an Alter Lord AND a hero with the HoD (likely on an eagle for movement to best make use of the HoD) gets really expensive, particularly when you tack on the necessasry mage(s) for magic defense.

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 14:26
I was toying around with a Wild Rider Highborn on a Great Stag with The Spear of Twilight (Killing Blow, doesn't "count as a spear" specifically, so no Strength bonus anyway, but I think that Wild Rider characters can still take it), The Oaken Armour (Regeneration) and Merciw's Locus. You've already got decent protection from the Regeneration and your Wild Rider 5+ Ward Save, so with 20 pts. left over the Locus is probably the best choice.

I thought about that too.

Just because the weapon doesn't ahve "counts as a spear" doesn't mean it's not a spear, it just means it doesn't gain the +1 S bonus. It's still rather obviously a spear (Hence the "Spear of Twighlight" moniker and the "This spear...." discription.

Still, it seems like you're just taking the Locus to fill up magic item points space (something I catch myself doing all the time, and try to stop now... characters don't *need* to be maxed out on magic items!) - I mean, it might help, a little. Would be nice if you were fighting a big GW wielding baddy, though - KB to hopefully kill him, and the Locus to leave him striking last (great weapon) at base strength.

It would matter for Ushapti, too - they gain +2 str from their weapons (it IS there weapons and not their profile, right? Been a long time for me!)

branchwrath
13-10-2005, 14:34
No, Ushabti have 'Huge Ceremonial Blades' that don't count as GWs, but they're still base S6.

And I thought you couldn't have a magic spear AND armour on your WR Character? Someone claimed that on my Quick Attack List...Is this not the case?

amagi
13-10-2005, 14:55
The wording says that Wild Rider characters "may not choose any additional weapons or armour, though they may choose a spear or a suit of magical light armour to replace the respective item if they wish."
It would be very silly to interpret this as meaning "either/or." They can take both.

Re: Wintersdark's Alter Highborn, I understand well the desire to keep the Hail of Doom Arrow in the picture (particularly in light of my fond 5th edition memories--it's tradition). But unfortunately there aren't really any nice combinations for a Lord with the Arrow. Inevitably you're giving up protection for the Arrow, meaning you've got near-300 pts. that's about as durable as a few Glade Guard. I'd only feel safe with the Oaken Armour + Ward Save Talisman route. If you simply must take the HoD though I'd think the Oaken Armour might be more reliable protection than one of those crappy "conditional" Talismans.

Then again, like I said in some circumstances I would take the Bow of Loren/Arcane Bodkins Alter, and occasionally I would send him out to fight even though he'll just have one of those Ward Save Talismans (Amaranthine Brooch). The difference here though is that he's inherently designed to sit back in protection for longer than a Hail of Doom Alter.

Re: My Wild Rider Lord with the Locus--yes, the Locus is more than just points-filling, because it makes him the ultimate character killer. With Killing Blow and immunity to great weapons--there are few better combinations in the Wood Elf list for taking out characters, since you also get the attacks of the Great Stag, the great protection of the Regeneration and Ward Save, and the movement of the Stag, which lets you easily target the characters and run them down as well. And +1 attack in subsequent turns on I8.
[EDIT: A big flaw in this theory is the fact that Strength 5 characters don't even need great weapons--they still wound on 2+ and have enough armour piercing to negate your armour save! Stupid T3. A consolation prize is the fact that they strike last if they nominated great weapons before you reveal your Locus, but then, with I8 they probably would have been doing that anyway......whatever, it still protects your Stag from great weapons at least.]
Of course he doesn't have Annoyance of Netlings, so there are certainly other character builds that rival him in character-killing.

amagi
13-10-2005, 15:47
Can anyone comment on the Forest Dragon?
I've been shying away from it in favor of the more novel choices. Everyone knows how Dragons work and it's just a generic Dragon.
But a Dragon would probably be especially deadly in most Wood Elf lists, since with all the many other units that can position for flank/rear charges, it's much harder for the enemy to successfully counter that rank-negating charge of your Dragon.
Anyone have experience with this? What items do you give the Lord?

Lion El Jason
13-10-2005, 22:33
I haven't yet but my lord on dragon was always just a naked lord with a spear (Maybe lt armour & Shield) and in the old list the amber amulet.

These days I maybe would try the locus as it would REALLY help the dragon!
In that case it'd be madness NOT to go for killing blow spear...

I will be trying him soon though so I'll let you know my experience.

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 22:54
I agree - I've been making a lot of Dragon lists.

Typically, dragons work very well, but do suffer because you're typically galivanting off leaving your army without his comforting leadership etc.

However, the Wood Elf Army is unique in that it can easy keep pace with a dragon. You're not more mobile than the rest of your army anymore.

I honestly feel Dragons are extremely well suited for Wood Elves. They really have no disadvantage, other than the points investment which, to be fair, isn't very much compared to say, a lord and a treeman. And, using a hero slot as well forces you to save those points :)

My only complaint with the Wood Elf Dragon is that I don't like his breath weapon. I'd far prefer a standard S4 breath. It would only have a -1 save modifier, but wound infantry on 3's and 4's (without allowing much of a save, assuming 5 and 4+ save troops). The S2 breath won't allow any armour saves, but will wound on 5's and 6's... meh.

While a conditional ward, I think the Stone of Crystal Mere is a given if you're using a dragon. Sure, it won't last forever, but a 3+ ward on both the character AND the dragon is too good to pass up.

From there, you've got a decision to make: Do you go wiht a purely combat based lord, or do you go with a missile based lord who'll also engage in the odd flank charge? A missile based lord isn't a bad thing - you fly around, spreading terror and breathing on things, while your lord shoots everything full of holes. I'd take Malovents for this one - the D6 S2 Poison shots in 6" (also, conveinently, in Terror range); Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins. You'd get the breath attack, followed by D6 poison shots, and then the 4 armour piercing shots too.

All the while, force your opponent to react to your troops, flitting all around him and threatening flanks everywhere.

On the other hand, you can go more combat based. I'd look more into the Dawnspear, Oaken Armour, and Enchanted Shield there, giving up the ward save in return for regeneration (overall much better than a ward, and useful against pretty much everything) and a 4+ armour save... but that's still a support-charge setup, designed to assist your other troops.

After all, your dragonlord isn't a "hunter" style character - I think having a Dragon is really excessive to hunt other big gribbly characters. A hunter-tooled Alter is more efficient for that. Once you get the dragon involved, your better off being tooled more for use vs. a variety of opponents. Who wants a hunter-tooled dragonlord when you're facing an army without big gribbley characters?

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 23:02
I haven't yet but my lord on dragon was always just a naked lord with a spear (Maybe lt armour & Shield) and in the old list the amber amulet.

These days I maybe would try the locus as it would REALLY help the dragon!
In that case it'd be madness NOT to go for killing blow spear...

I will be trying him soon though so I'll let you know my experience.

Errr, huh?

The locus wouldn't really help the dragon, as your opponent is FAR more likely to kill off your lord first - he's much squishier than a T6 W6 3+ save (and maybe a 3+ ward) And, if you've got the 3+ ward, you'll lose it once he starts killing your lord. You get much more wounds through vs. the highborn than the dragon, so it's natural to target him first. Even if you had the locus - he'd just kill your highborn first, then locus effect is gone anyways :)

I'm not seeing the KB spear as such a major thing for a dragonrider. Honestly, I'd far sooner have my dragon slaying entire units, not fighting big characters. Even tooled for character killing, a Wood Elf lord is going to be fairly vulnerable overall. If you lose him, your dragon can quite likely be either lost or rendered unusable.

You don't NEED to fight big characters, you can fly around their units and engage them from the flanks and rear, leaving the big gribbly characters out of the combat entirely. Break the unit, run it down, and his big gribbly character (who cost him a ton of points) is dead before it got a chance to gribble.

The Dragon is far too many points to be risking on such silliness as character hunting when he can be ravaging whole units.

The KB spear doesn't give a +1S, either. The Dawnspear, on the other hand, gets +1S on the charge, and cripples his units ability to counterattack - critical both to stop wounds back against you, and against the other units you likely have in that combat too.

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 23:17
I am considering a somewhat odd combat support setup:

Either Dawnspear, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour, Wraithstone
or Great Weapon/Spear, Oaken Armour, and Wraithstone

Depending on weither or not I wanted the additional defense. In a perfect world, the Wraithstone would give your opponents an additional -1 ld penalty on their terror tests.... and break tests. I like the dawnspear and wraithstone the best, but a 4+ armour save and no ward is... soft.

amagi
14-10-2005, 01:19
Eh, Wraithstone is too army-dependent, only really effective against things that aren't immune to psychology. Yeah, it affects break tests too, but is that really worth 50 pts.?? I doubt it, considering that you're giving up so many other items that the Lord could really use, like a protective item or a missle attack. And it's not always so easy to get a nice spot 6" away from the enemy.

Anyway, I really like the idea of a shooting Lord on the Dragon. Unlike with other shooting Wood Elf characters, you're more than capable of positioning in safety even right up close to the enemy, and you don't need to spend points on combat-boosting items since, obviously, you've got a giant fire-breathing lizard with 5 S6 attacks that negates ranks. Positioning in breath weapon range and terror range, and getting your Lord's shooting attacks would be great fun.

Randomization when magic missle/shooting at the character is basically the equivalent of a 3+ Ward Save for your Lord, and unlike with an Eagle or even a Stag, that protection is likely to last for a long time, barring unfortunate cannon shots or the like. As far as further protection, I disagree with taking Stone of the Crystal Mere (almost always, really, save maybe for a Wild Rider Kindred that already has a fallback Ward Save--or more generally, if you've already got sufficient protection from other sources). Relying on something that will be destroyed on every hit 1/3 of the time to protect your 600 or so point Lord is horribly risky. There's a 55% chance of it failing on the 1st or 2nd shot, and a 70% chance it will fail by the 3rd (meaning that on average, you'll only save against 1, or at best 2 hits--and often it will be 0). The Dragon getting it too is nice for him, but it just means you'll be rolling more often, with that much greater chance of failure. The Dragon can take a lot of damage on his own, and don't forget that whether the Dragon's dead or not the enemy only gets Victory Points depending on the rider's state of health. I'd much rather take something that will reliably protect the elf himself.

So there're a lot of options under the category of shooting character--Hail of Doom Arrow, Muster of Malevolents, Bow of Loren, etc.
But just offhand, the favorite for me seems to be Hail of Doom Arrow, Muster of Malevolents, Amaranthine Brooch, and Enchanted Shield with a spear.

You'll usually spend a turn some distance from the enemy while you try to position, in which you'll use HoD. Then get up close and breath fire, use the Muster, and shoot your one arrow (and cause Terror). The Muster is nice because you can stand and shoot regardless of the distance or direction you're charged from, which applies especially to a Dragon right in the thick of the enemy (not that you should let yourself be charged very often).

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 03:34
I do agree - I know the Wraithstone's not terribly wonderful overall, even though it IS useful vs. undead and deamons too (crumble/instability checks). It's only really worthwhile vs. armies vulnerable to your Terror, so you can get the full use out of it.

I'd never use it in a tournament setting, but I'd seriously consider it on a one off game when I knew what race my opponent is fielding.k

How do you get a 55% chance to fail it on the first shot? Overall, your chance to lose it on any given WOUND is 1/3 - no matter how many hits you've taken. Passing 1000 consecutive saves doesn't make you any more likely to fail the next. It's also not on 1/3 of the HITS against you, it's 1/3 of the WOUNDS, after armour saves - which is a very, very significant difference. Vs the dragon, that's only counting hits that wound through T6/3+ save. Vs your highborn, a quite a lot more likely to wound, but at least you get a very good ward save against any kind of hit.

Yeah, it likely won't last the whole battle, but you'll probably make a bunch of saves before it fails.

How many saves are you planning on having to make, really? I'm most concerned with the odd cannonball - in which case I'll likely have to make precisely one save, as that cannon absolutely will not survive long enough to make a second shot. Not against my wood elf army :) Lets not forget that if you're facing dwarves (half of all the cannons) that shot is likely to be magical.

Amaranthyne costs more, and doesn't protect you against magical attacks - which are quite likely going to be a much greater threat to you than non-magical ones. Magic missiles, etc. I fielded Malekith a few times with my dark elves, and every single time he was killed by simple magic missile spells. Every time. You can't know you'll always dispel them - sometimes, there's too many, other times it's total power.

I too agree about the shooting lord - I like him the best, although I'm more particial to the Bow of Loren/Bodkins combo, so he can get the best of his shooting in every round.

Ultimately, I've found opponents are loathe to allow a dragon a choice rear charge, though they are often forced to allow other troops, such as fast cav, the charge when they turn to face the dragon. They (rightly, IMHO) realise they're much more likely to kill off the fast cav or whatever quicker, and regain their rank bonuses in later rounds of combat (should they somehow not break).

As you say, you usually spend at least one turn getting into position anyways. In my experience, you tend to spend a LOT of time getting into good positions. Thus, planning on making best use of your dragons time rather than in combat but NEAR units makes him project a lot more force overall. Opponent denies you good charges? That's ok, because he'll tear apart units without getting into combat anyways.

I'm very fond of the muster of malovents, too. Able to fire off in any direction, stand and shoot, etc, it's really handy. As you'll be pretty much always hitting on 2's, you're nearly just rolling for hits with it :)


For shootie options - I'd just as soon give the HoD to someone else, and go with the Bow of Loren which, to me, pretty much necessitates Bodkins(the HoD prevents the Bodkins, of course, not the BoL). I like Starfire arrows, but you can make a pretty reasonable assumption that between the Muster, BoL, and dragons' breath that you'll get enough wounds for a panic test more often than not anyways, and the Starfire Arrows are only useful vs. non-immpsych troops.

Thus, currently my favourite (though there are a GREAT many perfectly valid options) - Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Malovents, Enchanted Shield, LA, and Spear.

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 03:38
Interestingly, I think the Stags are actually a good choice to Wood Elves.

In most armies, those big mounts are a disadvantage, as they are typically much more vulnerable than the rider and provide easy CR. In our case, this isn't the case. If anything, the mount is likely to be tougher to wound than the Elf riding him, and he does provide a decent amount of hittiness. For frontage, he's likely not as good as the additional Wild Rider you could get into the unit, and yes he makes the rider a pick-out-able target in the unit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The great stag adds sufficient hittiness that the character can leave the unit and function effectively on his own as well as in a unit of WR - he can autobreak enemy lone characters (and, in some cases, war machine crews etc), and hits hard enough to mangle light troops on his own, removing the need to have the whole wild rider unit running about chasing fast cav or some such.

Just some thoughts :)

amagi
14-10-2005, 03:57
Yes I know the chance is 1/3 for each individual roll.
And yes I know it's only for wounds caused and not hits...I know how Ward Saves work thank you :rolleyes: :p

(1/3 + 1/3) - (1/3 x 1/3) = 0.555555 = 55%
This is the chance of it failing on one of your first two save attempts. (That's why I said "1st or 2nd shot".)
The same method gives the 70% chance of failing by your 3rd try.
This is the chance that you will get at least one failure if you roll 3 dice.
An equivalent method is to calculate the chance that all of the 3 dice roll 3 or higher:
(2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3) = about 30%
In other words, like I said there's a 70% chance that you'll only save 2 OR LESS wounds by your 3rd roll, and then the item's gone.
So the majority of the time you'll save 1, or maybe 2 wounds if you're slightly lucky. The chance of it managing to save a whole 3 wounds is slightly less then the chance of failing the first roll and accomplishing nothing (about 1/3 for each possibility).
All the enemy has to do most of the time is get 1, or a bit more rarely, 2 wounds through your armour save on either the Dragon or the rider and then your elf is naked.

And it's not that rare that the Dragon will be taking wounds. One round of shooting from a single handgun unit can easily cause at least 1 wound, for example. Skinks will manage it even more easily. Don't forget you're a large target so you're easy to shoot at--that +1 is very significant, as is the line of site effect. Granted these missile troops will often choose to shoot at other targets, but not necessarily, especially if you fly right up next to the enemy line. And mages might very well be throwing fireballs at you. And of course Bolt Throwers and Cannons, etc. are likely to target you as well.

P.S. I agree completely about the Stag. Who was arguing that they weren't a good choice? I'd really like to try out my Wild Rider Lord on Stag army, but there're so many other interesting armies to try out first!!........Wood Elves are awesome:)

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 05:59
Ah I see, and I notice you did say first or second - I missed that, thought you meant 55% for the first wound :)

I've my own views on probability and how it pertains to various situations, but I won't clutter this thread with them.

I'm using it anyways - only one game with it so far, and it served reasonably well. Saved three wounds, then failed one. That's all my (elven steed riding) highborn took in the game, though, so it worked out just fine.

As for missile troops... well, they are my prefered targets early on. I like to send my whole army racing around the enemies infantry and cavalry, to kill off his missile troops and support troops. Pretty easy to do in most cases too. If he's got a harder battle line, sometimes I simply hide for the remainder of the game (tends to **** off people, though) rather than risk combat with really nasty stuff.

Run circles around him with glade riders etc, popping shots off and generally irritating, but not commiting to combat unless I *know* I'll win.

amagi
14-10-2005, 07:30
Fair enough, but the simple point is that there was only a 30% chance of you being that successful with the item--there was actually a greater chance of you failing your first roll and destroying the thing. In which case you wasted 30 pts. and your character is unprotected. Not good odds if you ask me, whatever your theories on probability are. I wouldn't go so far as to say the item is never worth it, but I would only ever take it if all I had left over was 30 points and no other protective item(s) was appropriate.
[EDIT: I could see taking it for just a Hero, provided there's some other 20 pt. item you really want to have. Don't know what that would be though. And like I said the item is more justifiable on a Wild Rider Kindred, who has a backup save.]
And there's nothing wrong with hiding, nothing at all. :D

Anyway, in general, even though you can certainly make some interesting and powerful characters, I think that the Wood Elf item list has some major flaws. Some of the protective items are badly designed or priced, and the available combos for shooting characters are disappointing, to name just two examples.

Scactha
14-10-2005, 09:09
Has anyone tried Waywatcher characters? As a 360 degree charge arc that deploys just by the enemylines but is very tiny I am curious if he can stand up to his investment.

One possible setup I imagined was to give him the +d6 attacks spite and use him as an artillery/very light unit killer and marchblocker.

The reason I mention this is that we have a problem with sacrificial units. We get one eagle per rare slot and that is as bad as it can get. Next we have GR but they can play many different roles so I am loathe to have to give them away for that job. Whatīs left does not work due to being skirmishers, thus disabling any control over the direction of the diversion, or just costing too much. We would want to treat our precious GG or Treekin as throwaways now would we not to mention that they are a little slow and ponderous for that job.

Yet marchblocking is essential for the GG to work. But with the extremley tied race for those rarespots I maybe can see a role for a Waywatcher character tooled to harass and marchblock.

What say you?

xowainx
14-10-2005, 09:59
Out of intrest, how are people deploying the main parts of their army, and then their free wood?

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 15:19
Anyway, in general, even though you can certainly make some interesting and powerful characters, I think that the Wood Elf item list has some major flaws. Some of the protective items are badly designed or priced, and the available combos for shooting characters are disappointing, to name just two examples.

I think they are intentionally designed that way. They seem badly priced, but the reality is that Wood Elf characters can be designed to be extremely, extremely dangerous. However, it's nearly impossible to build a solid defence AND maintain the extremely dangerous thing.

We simply don't have a good ward save, all of them are limited in some way. What works best for one would depend largely on what armies they face regularly, but in the end, you simply can't make a character with both a solid offense and defence.

Fortunately, you CAN make a character with a very strong defence... it's just that that's all he's got. No quick, easy 4+ wards or 2+ save armour for us.

Further... our kindreds are neat, but inherently limiting. Wardancer? Much more offensive power, but no armour of any kind, and must be unmounted.

Alter? Very killy, but cannot be the general and must remain on foot(lose the armour save if nothing else)

Wild Rider? A great kindred - fantastic even. Free spear and light armour, 5+ ward vs. non-magical, immune to psychology, cause fear on the charge, +1 attack in later rounds of combat... It's amazing. BUT: Limited armour selection (no enchanted shield/Helm of the Hunt), limited weapon selection (just the two spears), must be mounted and cannot join non-FS units.

Of course, there's scout and waywatcher, but those really aren't so good.

Reinnon
14-10-2005, 15:23
thats is imo the point of the whole list.

some units are fantastic at some things but weak in others, its how the army list works.

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 15:28
The reason I mention this is that we have a problem with sacrificial units. We get one eagle per rare slot and that is as bad as it can get. Next we have GR but they can play many different roles so I am loathe to have to give them away for that job. Whatīs left does not work due to being skirmishers, thus disabling any control over the direction of the diversion, or just costing too much. We would want to treat our precious GG or Treekin as throwaways now would we not to mention that they are a little slow and ponderous for that job.

Yet marchblocking is essential for the GG to work. But with the extremley tied race for those rarespots I maybe can see a role for a Waywatcher character tooled to harass and marchblock.

What say you?

I'm not seeing it that way at all. In my opinion, our list is overflowing with great march blockers/war machine hunters.

Not just great eagles and glade rides, but warhawks, hero's on eagles, skirmishers, etcs..

Not so much that they are sacrificial units - elf armies rarely have units they can afford to sacrifice without significant gain - but we are particularly well suited to hunt and destroy light targets.

The waywatcher in particular... it's a very expensive upgrade, and your character is very, very fragile. Thus, you get a hero/lord capable of starting the game deep beneath enemy lines, but he's not really combat capable. He can run aroudn and march block, but ultimately he's just a single character and can be trapped and killed. Thanks to the high cost of the waywatcher upgrade, that's a lot of points tossed away.

I'd far rather use a noble on a great eagle to do the same thing. He's in march blocking range on turn two, is nearly impossible to trap due to his fly movement, and is much more capable in close combat due to his ability to take armour and the eagles additional attacks. The Eagle, BTW, costs the same as a Lord's waywatcher upgrade, and only 15 pts more than the hero's. As it's a mount, it doesn't use up your precious rare slots either.

Noble, Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom Arrow, LA, Shield, Spear, Great Eagle: That's where the good lovins are :) Alternatively, the same character with Alter Kindred instead of the Great Eagle works better in combat, but does lose some mobility (having to run around enemy units, etc)

Waywatcher is very expensive, horribly restricts your armour and weapon options, and doesn't give you very much in return. That advanced deployment would be FAR better if you had sufficient defence to play the role of assassin, but with WE range we don't really need to start near the enemy to shoot him full of holes, so why spend 35-50 pts to get close? We've got a 30" firing range anyways, and a lord can move and fire at long range still hitting on 2's :)

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 15:35
thats is imo the point of the whole list.

some units are fantastic at some things but weak in others, its how the army list works.

Indeed. Almost everything is a good choice, there are few truely crappy items, and no useless units. In my opinion, it's one of the best balanced lists to date. You can get lots of attack, but if you do, you can't have a solid defense. Likewise, you can have lots of defense... but then don't have much of an offense. You can play a well balanced list with the standard battle line, you can play a non-engagement army, or you can play a combat heavy skirmished force - or any mix of them.

I'm really impressed with it overall.

amagi
14-10-2005, 16:59
A good example of a fairly badly designed item is the 50 pt. Armour that gives a 4+ Ward Save, but only within 6" of a wood. Aren't 4+ Ward Save items usually 45 or so points for most armies? This item costs more and only works right next to a wood. And for the same amount of points you can buy the other armour that gives a 4+ Regeneration save at all times, which is vastly better in most circumstances. You can come up with all kinds of rationalizations for why this item makes sense at its cost (it let's you take a Talisman in addition to your Ward Save, etc.) or why in some particular battle plan the item works, but in light of the whole context of the list and what you can take with the item, I just don't really buy it as a good item in general, and I'll probably never take it.
[Note that probably the ideal use of this item would be on a shooting character designed to sit back in the woods, but it's basically impossible to make a halfway decent shooting character that already spent 50 pts. on this armour!! I don't even buy taking the thing for a character in an Eternal Guard unit, because you will normally want some more flexibility on where you can deploy or move the unit.]

As for shooting items, this has been covered before in this thread, but basically I think they wanted to make archer/sniper characters a viable and interesting option, but they went too far in limiting the items' power because they were afraid of unbalanced no-brainer shooting characters (a legitimate fear). There are a small number of viable shooting characters as it is now, but I just think there are too many items that are pointless or not cost-effective, like the 25 point sniper bow that just lobs single S3 shots at the enemy. They put too many restrictions on combinations of magic bows and magic arrows and/or waywatcher abilities, etc.

But look, like I said you can still make a lot of interesting characters, and I'm quite pleased with the overall result--it's just that I would be a lot more pleased if they had gone in a different direction with a few things, like the shooting items. And note that I'm only criticizing the Magic Item list--the army list in general is great. (Though again, several of the Kindred options are far less useful than they should be, especially the Waywatcher and Scout Kindreds, and they really should have made an all-tree creature army A LOT more viable and interesting then it is....they got about as marginalized as non SoC daemon armies.)

Anyway, back to tactics.

hsiehlt
14-10-2005, 17:55
About waywatchers:

5 scouts and 1 eagle is only 15 pts more than 5 waywatchers. Instead of one unit deploying next to the enemy, you now have 2 units that are farther away, but twice as much march blocking. If your goal is to march block on unit and do damage to it, then waywatchers are better. If your goal is to marchblock off sections of the army, take the scouts and eagle.

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 18:48
Niether is better, they're just different choices, and they do very different things. Using an eagle for nothing but march block, is in my opinion kind of a waste. He can march block, but he can do more as well. Much like Waywatchers - they can march block, but that's really secondary for them. They can inflict substantial damage over the course of a battle with their bowfire, even being S3. Their additional hand weapons allow them to jump into a fight and assist, providing a twice the hittyness of scouts.

*shrug* Niether is a better choice in general, just depends on what you want them to do.

One thing I'm confused about though: Have you noticed that waywatchers have AHW's, but a waywatcher character is prevented from using weapon options that require two hands like AHW does?

Reinnon
14-10-2005, 18:55
i must admit, i don't think waywatchers are that great anymore.

waywatchers are good, but they very fragile for a very expensive unit, a unit thats sole purpose seems to be killing heavy cav (with killing blow arrows), but a treeman/wardancers can do it better, and a unit of scouts with banner of the zenith (i think its the banner of zenith) is better at blocking march moves.

eagles just seem a better choice imo

Wintersdark
14-10-2005, 19:05
Like I said, they do different things. For march blocking, there are far more cost efficient ways to do it that waywatchers. However, waywatchers can do some significant damage with bowfire - scouts won't account for nearly as much. The banner of Zenith does make them very good march blockers... but I'm not terribly taken on it. When I first found out about that nifty little combo I was pretty stoked about it, but some careful thought has lead me to this conclusion: Do you really need that additional 4" of march blocking range? Is it worth making that unit of scouts worth, what, 137 VP's more to your opponent (topping 200 vp's total). It's another banner he can capture - and believe me, those scouts will be a target with that banner, instead of an annoyance better ignored.

On some battlefields, it'll be great.... but I'm thinking that with your ability to plunk them in a forest and simply move the forest around, the extra 4" of march blocking is less necessary. Still, it's a neat toy, and would be a great idea in scenario based games(tournaments particularly) where slowing his army is even more important.

I've found that a lot of the time, I don't need to march block... because where's he going to go? My opponent typically doesn't have much of a destination, because my army is so mobile it can often simply run circles around his. My two units of glade guard are the only real targets to move towards... but that's what I want him to do :)

Scactha
14-10-2005, 22:18
I'm not seeing it that way at all. In my opinion, our list is overflowing with great march blockers/war machine hunters.

Not just great eagles and glade rides, but warhawks, hero's on eagles, skirmishers, etcs..

Not so much that they are sacrificial units - elf armies rarely have units they can afford to sacrifice without significant gain - but we are particularly well suited to hunt and destroy light targets.

Yes I do not actually belive in the combo. Iīd rather go for a eagle mounted variant. But I still cling to my notion that we have problems with sacrificial units. Because we are very situational that role becomes much more important than if we could afford to steam right ahead. Marchblocking and harassing isnīt a problem in my book either. Rather the opposite. We are kings of the flanks.

Yet I struggle for more tools to get the maximum out of all my close combat experts who so very much depends on getting the charge and working together.

Good discussion by the way. Keep it going.

Wintersdark
15-10-2005, 09:09
Played a wonderful game vs. a chaos army tonight. Used the Alter in leiu of the Eagle rider, 2 Level 2 spellsingers, and a wardancer lord.

The wardancer lord did very well VS. a tooled exalted champion(champion was in on his own, so he challenged and left the wardancers to watch, which was OK because the WD lord had Annoyances :)); treeman and alter together ravaged units of chaos warriors, and my personal favorite - between Waywatcher and a unit of Glade riders shooting for 2 rounds, and a charge with 8 dryads.. a unit of 20 Bloodletters were torn apart.

The battlefield was definately in my favour, with 2 forests on my opponents table side and my forest on mine (but right up to the middle)... Was able to move them around enough to prevent units of his from actually doing anyhting at all.

Overall, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Killed off his light troops right away (marauder horse, spawn) then could simply walk around his units taking pot shots until I got into a good charge position.

It's funny. There's no need for sacrificial units, but on the other hand, if you're playing a list where (barring characters and the treeman) every unit is worth 100-150 pts, any unit can be sacrificed with no real loss. On the other hand, a Chaos player cannot often say the same thing.

Even if a combat doesn't work out well for you, if you've involved multiple 100-150 pt units, you only stand to lose whichever unit he elects to pursue, the rest get away free and clear.

I'm getting more and more fond of the cheap units. Being able to hit so hard with so little risk is fantastic.

Scactha
15-10-2005, 12:41
If the opponent is faster as in brets or all cav armies the need for sacrifice builds fast. Else it´s back to pot shots and old school hide and seek which people hated us som much before for.

Building a noble on Eagle with Hawks Talon and Murder of Malevolents incidently...

Reinnon
15-10-2005, 18:06
in my test games at 1500 points i'm finding it difficult to take down heavy cav, the only thing seems to be killing blow dance wardancers.......

how do WE take down bret armies? brets seem to me to be the WE worst nightmare, any thoughts?

Wintersdark
15-10-2005, 20:09
In my game, it was the waywatchers (believe it or not) harrassing his chosen knights - he couldn't ignore them, because they'd kill a night now and then (6 of them will typically off a knight a turn via KB, maybe another to a really unlucky ward save)... he lost his nerve, used the knights to try to chase the waywatchers (rofl) and my treeman and alter, fresh from wiping out his chosen warriors, chewed up the remaining knights.

Now, he shouldn't have done that, but to be fair his knights had nothing else to do. I simply refused to give them targets, and kept treesinging forests in front of them.

Against an all cav army it would be a bit different, but treemen still excel. They don't lose combats to ranks, and they can smash through cav's armour save with ease. Even the chosen had a hard time wounding the treeman (T6, 3+ armour, 5+ ward, 4+ regen most of the time thanks to the glorious Athel Loren magic). Normal heavy cav would have little to no chance of actually harming him with just S4, or (laughs) S3.

The alter did well too - his small base allows you to place him in BTB with only one knight. If he manages to kill one knight a turn (not unrealistic) there are no attacks back against him.

If you play against heavy cav armies, then maybe a highborn with the bow of loren and bodkins would be worthwhile, but that's not such a good tourny option as he's nearly useless against armies that don't care about a few loses every turn.

I understand why we don't have bolt throwers, but I wish we did :)

And... it bugs me that High Elves get significantly better magic bows than us. *grumble* Girly little foppish bastards!

Edit: Chosen undivided knights, not chosen khorne knights. I wish they were Khorne :(

Wintersdark
15-10-2005, 23:17
Ok... having played a few games now, both with magic heavy forces (L4, L2, L1 branchwraith) and mid-magic forces (2 L2's, or 1 L2 and 1 Branchwraith), I've got to say:

Those who have said that Athel Loren magic does not apply enough pressure to your opponent.... are completely, utterly wrong.

Even my mid magic armies posed a significant danger to similar magic armies (2 L2's with dispel scrolls) simply because with the Stave (a necessity to make the lore really effective, IMHO) you can readily successfully cast a great many Treesinging spells, and supplement that with a bound treesinging or two (treeman/men/ancient) and the other bound spells.

I can't begin to say how useful treesinging is, even if your forest is the only one on the table. You're opponent really needs to dispel it, otherwise he finds units rendered useless. It's most useful when you've got multiple forests you can draw close together. They need not touch each other, just be close enough that his troops can't fit through the gap without getting into the forest. You can isolate half an army with this, or even more. It quite literally forces him to enter the forests or do nothing at all with a unit(or units!) for the whole game. Of course, once he enters the forest, your multi-cast treesingings ravage those units. Lose-lose situation for him. If you've got Fury of the Forest, it's pretty much garaunteed to draw dispel dice/scrolls too, as it does not require LOS and isn't affected by targetting restrictions (being as it's not a magic missile) - it forces his characters into units, making his wizards vulnerable to your hunters.

Beyond that, the other spells are all extremely useful. In the early game, you tend to pretty much just treesing your power dice away, until you get the forest(s) where you want them. Once you've done that (and your opponent has learned that he's better off doing nothing with a unit than attempting to enter a forest), you're free to cast your support spells - having drained off a bundle of dispel scrolls already, and quite possibly killed a mage or two.

In every game I've played, Athel Loren magic has been simply outstanding. Rarely has it directly killed anything - but it's made an enormous difference every time.

Treesinging, used carefully, is an extremely dangerous spell for your opponent, and very, very useful for you.

I know I've ranted about this lore before, but this is after a good number of games with both high and medium magic - and it's still holding up. Don't underestimate the fantastic lore in return for some silly little direct damage crap :)

Wintersdark
16-10-2005, 00:33
On the topic of the Wardancer Lord:

mmm... very nice. Currently running with a Wardancer Lord (blades on Loec, Amaranthyne Brooch*, Netlings), and Alter hero w/ HoD and HotH, and 2 L2's (dispel scrolls and the Stave)

I learned that your often better off with the Wardancer lord running solo, but near the Wardancers for cover and support. Normally, I'm a fan of the Stone the Crystal Mere, but I'm finding for the Wardancer Lord, the only times she's dealing with magic attacks are typically in challenges.... where the netlings protect her better than the ward would anyways. She can't be targetted by magic missiles due to proximity to the unit. This way, I can send the wardancers and lord in a combined charge, or have the option of sending the lord off in another direction if I feel so inclined. I'm getting into 2 units of 7 Wardancers (and 2 units of 8 dryads) so there's plenty of shooting cover (and the 3+ ward) so the Lord's pretty safe solo. She's a killing *machine*.

Overall, though, solo spreads the points out more and allows her to function independantly. Many times, due to a supporting charge from elsewhere (there's ALWAYS a supporting charge with wood elves!) you don't need the Lord as well, as the Dancer unit is more than enough. This way, you don't unnecessarily commit (and thus risk) the whole kit and kaboodle. On the other hand, a combined charge has no significant disadvantage to her simply being in a unit.

Want to have *loads* of fun? Have the Wardancer Lord charge a unit, supported by the Alter hero. It's a bloodbath :)

Edit: Whoops, left out the biggest reason why I like the lord seperate: That way, she can pick a different dance than the unit. Most often, this means her in a challenge with Killing Blow, and the unit with +1 A. Get the best out of both worlds :)

* Yeah, you convinced me Amagi, there are quite a few times the Brooch is better.... but I still prefer the Stone for Dragon riders :)

Scactha
16-10-2005, 17:36
I can't begin to say how useful treesinging is, even if your forest is the only one on the table.
In a typical tournament half the scenarios are Pitched Battles or variants that counts as that meaning half the time the spell is wasted points. And in the remaining half themed terrain not that seldom means that the only wood you have is the one you brought. Thus I do not consider it anything to rely on.

Wintersdark
16-10-2005, 18:24
Well, do you only every play in tournaments? I've always played in a lot, but even so they only account for a small fraction of my games. Given that you couldn't have your own forest in half your tournament games, and from that half, you wouldn't have a forest on the table, oh, lets say half the time again, you're looking at, what, one or maybe two games in the tournament forest-free? Of course, it depends on your tournament, I suppose. In my experience, I think I've played maybe 5 tournament games in my LIFE on tables without a single forest AND where a wood elf player would be unable to place his own, and that's over a decade of playing and several tournies a year.

On the other hand, I play about 3-4 games per week in normal games were I pretty much will always get my forest.

So long as there's a single forest on the table, even if that's my own, treesinging is wonderful.

Wintersdark
16-10-2005, 18:26
Oh... IF you play a tournament game, without a single forest on the table AND you're not allowed to place your own forest, your magic is still far from useless - you just won't be swapping down spells for treesinging. Of course, Calaingor's Stave won't be so useful to you in this game, but considering how good it is in every other game, it's a small price to pay.

Scactha
17-10-2005, 06:50
I play all games as if they was tournament games just for the reason I like going on torunaments and do so frequently. Thus I cannot start to build up my strategys on something that possibly will not be there to use.

YoungKing
17-10-2005, 21:44
Hey everyone. I'm just considering getting back into the GW world. I've been into 40k for about 9 years but I've always had an interest in Fantasy, altough I never got into it. I didn't because GW took forever to do Wood Elves, which I've always wanted to play, but never did for a few reasons, mainly the old models, out-dated rules ect. Now that they have been re-done, I'm really interested in starting up an army. Here are my thoughts.

I'd like to theme it around only elves, to dryads and such, though I don't know if thats acually a good idea. I want to play a satisfying army, not powergaming or win at all costs type. I'm thinking about getting my hands on 2 boxes of Glade Guard, a hero and a box of Glade Riders. In a 2000pt game I'm hoping to have quite a few archers as a core, and add to that. I do have the armybook, don't worry about that. I'm not really sure what else to add right now. (Just to note, I'm not really new here I posted all the time on Portent):( )

Thanks.

YK.

Wintersdark
18-10-2005, 03:26
You can definately make a very effective Wood Elf army with only elves, no dryads etc. You're limiting your list a lot, but that's ok. A couple units of Glade Guard, 3 or so units of Glade Riders with Musicians for your core, supported by a few units of War Dancers and Wild Riders (Technically, wild riders have the forest spirit rules, but they are still elves). Top em off with Warhawks and Waywatchers... Yeah, it's all good.

Forest spirits are very cool, but not necessary to the list.

Sinew
18-10-2005, 10:30
I am considering going all elf myself, and it's thrown up a strange character combination possibility. I was wondering about a Spellweaver with Calaingor's Stave (or whatever it's called - the one that allows multiple treesingings) and three Nobles with quite light equipment. I was thinking a fairly standard Alter Noble, a wardancer Noble (possibly with the Annoyance of Netlings) and a Noble in a unit of Glade Riders with the Horn of the Asrai. Not sure how viable this is just yet but I like the feel of it.

Odin
18-10-2005, 22:13
Can I chuck in a couple of specific tactical quandries here? Obviously it all depends on the overall context, deployment etc, but how would you go about dealing with each of these enemies.

1) Bloodthirster. This is obviously a problem for lots of armies, but as Wood Elves are lacking in expendable sacrificial units, and don't have much scope for dealing with a Bloodthirster with rank bonus, it can be a bit tricky. I managed to beat one when it charged my Dryads and my Branchwraith with Annoyance of Netlings challenged it - the 'thrister failed to hit and then lost due to outnumbering, and rolled 12 on the instability test. But that was extremely lucky on my part. Any more reliable ideas?

2) Helblaster Volley Gun. I am unlucky with this weapon as my regular Empire opponent NEVER misfires with it when playing against me. But even with the law of averages working properly this is a nasty piece of work. Generally I need to get about three or four units ready to charge it and hope that one of them survives until the next turn to charge. Again, expendable troops are not particularly common, so this is rather costly. What would you guys do?

3) Knights. My general with the Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins can usually do a number on these guys, but against T4 heavy cav he has a bit less luck. Problem is, there is not much else in the army which can do them much damage (Nothing apart from Orion has more than S6 as far as I can tell).

Wintersdark
19-10-2005, 02:40
Bloodthirster Gribbly fellow, he is. There are two approaches for the 'thirster, with Wood Elves. Either working at killing it, or simply keeping it busy so that it's not doing really ugly things to your army.

Killing it IS an option, but it's a difficult one. The bloodthirster is HARD. I'd think your best bet would be a Treeman Ancient with Annoyance of Netlings, Murder of Spites(Every attack counts, and magic poison attacks are always handy!), and whatever else you want to give him. You'll need another US5+ unit, or better, two, but anything that's either higher US than him (6? 7?) or immune to psych/fear causing will do. Try to get a musician in too! Glade riders are perfect for this. It's even better if you've got two treemen - I'll explain that in a sec. Charging doesn't matter very much, because it's HIGHLY unlikely either of you will die in the first round. So, try to run up and totally block his LOS to anything else (also being a large target this is possible), then hit him with Strangleroots. He'll have to charge next turn, but that ok. If you've got another treeman nearby, have him strangeroots too, and anything else nearby shoot. Want to start the fight as far ahead as possible.

Anyways, he then charges your Treeman(being frenzied, and unable to see anything else). You, of course, Challenge, and he cannot decline as he has no unit to hide behind. Whack away with branches, let your spites run amok.

Got a BSB nearby? Always a good plan, in case things go badly for a turn. If not, you should be fine. Stubborn 9 is all good :)

Anyhow, in your next turn, have your support unit(s) rear (and, ideally) flank charge the 'thirster. You can't strike at him because he's in a challenge, but better yet he can't strike at you either. However, you will get the outnumbering, flank, and rear bonuses, so you'll start combat with +4. He'll hit you on 6's, you'll hit him on 4's. How likely is it that he's going to get the 5 wounds necessary to beat you in combat, and you not get any at all? With any other result, he's taking an instability test, and not unlikely taking one with some severe penalties.

Got some magic? +1 attack spell is somewhat useful, regeneration is wonderful.

No treeman?

A little more dangerous and difficult to set up, a Highborn with Netlings, regen, and a ward save, and a half decent weapon supported in the same way (but obviously you charge!)

If you're building your army with this in mind, it may even be worth taking a Glade Rider unit with a standard AND a musician, just to push you to base +5 CR and winning ties. Or, a wild rider unit with a standard+war banner and their default Musician... +6 base CR :)

Otherwise, you're going to be hoping there's a lot of forests on the table, as you can hide reasonably safely within them, keeping troops out of LOS. Have a single Glade Rider unit lead him off, staying at the far end of his charge range to insure successful fleeing.

Remember, you don't need to kill him - if you can lead him around safely through the game and instead kill off his other troops, then you'll do well. That 'thirster is a big points sink, if he can't kill a lot of stuff, the rest of the armies suffers.

We do, in fact, have sacrificial units. All of them. Our units are all around 120-150 pts each, and as such can be expended if necessary. Brave souls, they are, willing to give their lives to defend the forests (or just poke sharp pointy sticks in the eyes of those who thought they could challenge you! Baha!)

Wintersdark
19-10-2005, 02:46
Helblaster

Being an autohit weapon, it's EXTREMELY dangerous to us. Thus, you either have to stay away, or shoot it's crew to bits. Volley's of fire from Glade Guard/riders/characters/hawks/everything else in your army, combined with sniper fire at the crew members if you took either sniper weapon/spite.

A treeman, again, is a good bet, but I'd only do this if necessary as there is significant risk - if you can get him within 16" out of LOS, march him within 6" of the VG. Hit it with your own version - strangeroots. If that kills em all, great, if not, then at least you can hope terror will do them before they can fire. But, at least, even if it does fire, it *probably* won't kill the treeman.

Best, just shoot it. You've got 30" range bows, use em :)

Or, use 2 units of Glade Riders. Have on run up close, blocking it's LOS, and shoot it. Have another come up close behind the first (BUT! Not so close that they have to test for panic when the Helblaster inevitably blows the snot out of your first unit. Second unit then, in your turn, charges and runs the crews little asses down.

Wintersdark
19-10-2005, 02:48
Knights

BoL/AB work great, if you bring them. If there's just one unit, it's often easier to ignore.

Softer (read:non-chaos) knights are easy enough to kill in combat with your normal combat troops. Harder knights, well, it's just easier not to fight them. Push forests into their way, run around them. Pick your fights.

If you absolutely must, then just pick a unit and hit it HARD - treemen, dryads, wardancers, alter nobles, etc - everything you've got that can hit. use Killing Blow dances, and just chop at em till they die.

Wintersdark
19-10-2005, 02:49
I realise a lot of these things are easier said than done, but you've got to figure out ways to lure your opponent into places where you can do 'em. That's what the Wood Elf army is all about :)

Scactha
19-10-2005, 08:37
Knights are workable when it´s Empire or Chaos style. It´s the 5 Bretlances with alot of static CR for mounted units that´s the problem. Terrain becomes extremely important as we most likely don´t get the charge. Solution? I don´tknow but on the other hand do a majority of the armies out there struggle with Brets. Personally I think they are dead dull on par with castlearmies like Skaven and O&G.

Zeb
19-10-2005, 09:11
Castlearmies? Sorry I don't get that...

Baiting should work and then hit the flanks with either WR or dryads.

What I have done to some succes with my Druchii is to march a unit up to the knights and when he declares a charge I flee. And since they will get destroyed by charges I hit the flanks with almost evrything I have. With my Druchii I even use two units to do this, since you are only allowed to redirect a charge once. It's also quite easy to see where he ends up (16'' away) instead of taking the charge and let him overrun since a good or bad roll can spoil a plan that way.
With the extra terrain you have and possibility to choose troops that doesn't have to take a panic test (treespirits) and loads of S4 attacks (Dryads) it could work...

But to use this tactic you would have to play you Glade Guards in a total new way...

Odin
19-10-2005, 09:36
Cheers Wintersdark. That's pretty much what I though, but better thought out. I'm not planning on having a Treeman Ancient, but perhaps my Highborn might drop the Arcane Bodkins and take Annoyance of Netlings when fighting Daemons (though I prefer to have an army which can take on anyone, rather than tailor it for specific enemies).

Latro
19-10-2005, 10:35
Can I chuck in a couple of specific tactical quandries here? Obviously it all depends on the overall context, deployment etc, but how would you go about dealing with each of these enemies.

1) Bloodthirster.

The Treeman Ancient that has been mentioned before would definately defeat the Bloodthirster, the only problem with that "tactic" is that it isn't what I would call a tactic ... more of an opportunity that if it presents itself should be taken. A tactic is a series of events that you can (for a large part) control ... trying to catch a Bloodthirster with a Treeman, especially against an opponent who knows what he's doing, is just not gonna happen very often.

A more dependable tactic which can also be performed with allround units would be shooting ... dead simple shooting. Three units of 10 archers are very capable of dealing that Bloodthirster an average of 3 to 4 wounds each volley ... and he will start failing those saves. Add an alter noble with the Hail of Doom arrow, almost a staple unit, and you can add another 1 or two wounds during the first round of shooting.

That should get his attention, and that's what you want. :evilgrin:

He can either hide behind terrain, which takes a very expensive unit out of the battle for at least several turns ... and every turn the Bloodthirster isn't around will be another round for you archers to shoot other stuff so no waste of points there. Or he could go straight for the threat which opens hom up for another round of shooting, bring him closer to your other threats (the ones Winterdark mentioned) and opens him up to distracting frenzy-charges.



2) Helblaster Volley Gun.

Once again, dead simple moderate shooting will do the job just fine. Those same three units of archers or the alter noble with his magic arrow will just need a single volley to take it out. A lot less risky and costly than the other tactics I think ... allthough I do like the double Glade Rider approach.


3) Knights.

archers v. T3 2+ save knights, long range = 1 dead knight, perhaps 2
archers v. T4 2+ save knights, long range = 1 dead knight

archers v. T3 2+ save knights, short range = 4 dead knights, perhaps 5
archers v. T3 2+ save knights, long range = 3 dead knights, perhaps 4

Will the archers defeat the knights? Not if there's a lot of them coming your way, but a single unit they can handle. Again, the most important part of this tactic is that it will force the enemy to do something about the threat of your archers ... and it's a lot easier to lure allready weakened knights that are aiming for the archers into an ambush, than doing the same thing without anything to distract the knight from aiming at your ambushers instead.

Anyway, I hope this helps in dealing with those specific threats while using an allround army.

:cool:

Wintersdark
20-10-2005, 02:44
It's why I don't often play Glade Guard - they are great, but they are sitting ducks for a lot of troops that I normally simply ignore. Even bret lances aren't a problem because they'll never get the charge on me - I run up to and around knight units, rather than charging them, until I can get into a good place to charge em. I let them TRY to charge units - typically glade riders, but never actually allow them to charge anything. Their characters are too dangerous to use Treemen to receive charges, so I simply refuse to offer them the opportunity to charge me. Easy to do if you're got nothing but a lot of light fast troops and can readily march block them.

Obviously, it still depends on terrain, but a wide-spread deployment helps a lot too. Just don't give him a direction to point his lances in, so they mill about uselessly.

Wintersdark
20-10-2005, 02:53
Oh, please understand: I'm not in any way suggesting that Glade Guard are bad troops - they are fantastic archers, one of the few S3 missile units that are really worthwhile. Most of my suggested tactics are ones that I'm developing as I play, and as I don't have any glade guard... well, they are all glade-guard-free tactics.

I've found, though, that Latro is absolutely correct. Even S3 shooting whittles away at knights. You'll never kill them all, but it becomes a LOT easier to goad the opposing player into moving into an ambush when you're whittling at them.

I use Way Watchers for the same purpose - Only 5 or 6 S3 shots, but with Killing Blow at short range (and they are always at short range) and hitting on 2's, they typically take a knight down per round. The knights have no chance at all of actually catching the Waywatchers, but the continued attrition due to the odd casualty drives him to make poor, hasty decisions and abandon his battle plan to try to deal with those pesky arrows.

Scactha
20-10-2005, 07:26
Castlearmies? Sorry I don't get that...

Baiting should work and then hit the flanks with either WR or dryads.

What I have done to some succes with my Druchii is to march a unit up to the knights and when he declares a charge I flee. And since they will get destroyed by charges I hit the flanks with almost evrything I have. With my Druchii I even use two units to do this, since you are only allowed to redirect a charge once. It's also quite easy to see where he ends up (16'' away) instead of taking the charge and let him overrun since a good or bad roll can spoil a plan that way.
With the extra terrain you have and possibility to choose troops that doesn't have to take a panic test (treespirits) and loads of S4 attacks (Dryads) it could work...

But to use this tactic you would have to play you Glade Guards in a total new way...
This is all fine and dandy when thereīs one or two lances. We all can do that. Iīm talking about when you meet 5 lances and Pegasii who all can charge the same round. We got no tarpits nor enough sacrifice to handle that thus are very reliant on terrain.

A castlearmy is a formation of Skaven, Greenskins, anything else who can hold back and deliver ranged punishment yet can soak up charges good enough with sacrifices or just by being handling the attrition like Dwarves or undead. You canīt hang back because the duel between pointsloss is in their favour and if you attack they castle up and you get flanked unless you can deliver pressure along the whole front. Something elves are ill equipped to do.

Zeb
20-10-2005, 08:12
Ah, thanks!

I haven't played Bredts yet (you know how often I play now that I'm in Gothenburg)... But we have something that will benefit us, loads of stuff causing fear (I know it's not the best things, but) that will hinder some of the brets. And priortiy 1 (when I face brets) are the pegasi knights. And they have never made an inpact against me.
But I see the problem with five lances... The only advise would be to use terrain to our advantage.

The thing is, I have used the same "tactic" with my Glade Riders now... 130 pts, it's a sacrifice unit for me...;)

Wintersdark
20-10-2005, 08:42
This is all fine and dandy when thereīs one or two lances. We all can do that. Iīm talking about when you meet 5 lances and Pegasii who all can charge the same round. We got no tarpits nor enough sacrifice to handle that thus are very reliant on terrain. We are always highly dependant on terrain, IMHO.

Wood Elves suffer badly on a wide open field. Particularly against a Cav army. The way I see it, if he expects you to play on an open field, play just as many games with a well forest covered one, and he'll smarten up fast.

Otherwise, a 6x4 table with around 4 terrain pieces (one per quarter) seems to be a very standard amount of terrain. Add to that your free forest, and you've got a lot of terrain to muddle up the board with.

With 5 lances and peggiekniggits, your job first and formost is to hunt those chikenriders down and deal with them. Of course, in my opinion, that's our first task in ANY game: Deal with your opponents support units first, then look to blocks of stuff.

Once they are down, treesing forests to block off his knight units, and isolate one of them - if that's even necessary, depends on how many points in support units he's got. Remember, once you've got enough VP's to win, it may not be worth continuing to flail at his knights.



A castlearmy is a formation of Skaven, Greenskins, anything else who can hold back and deliver ranged punishment yet can soak up charges good enough with sacrifices or just by being handling the attrition like Dwarves or undead. You canīt hang back because the duel between pointsloss is in their favour and if you attack they castle up and you get flanked unless you can deliver pressure along the whole front. Something elves are ill equipped to do.Neither have effective non-los range potential, save a L4 greenskin shaman and foot/warpath. Don't just stand around in LOS - that's a bad idea ALL the time. Hug terrain, hide in your forest, get close enough to assassinate a warlock or run down whatever ranged threat is actually significant, spread terror around, and then bug out.

Ratling guns? Definately invest in the sniper weapons.

You've got a forest, it can start almost in the middle of the board. Pile into it, then treesing it forwards. Use it as a springboard into enemy lines.

I played greenskins for a long time, I don't really see how they can project a severe enough threat to you at range. Spear chukkas? Of course you'll never give them LOS to your treeman - that would be silly. But against anything else at long range, they are going to be REALLY hard pressed to even hit, let alone do any real damage. Oh, treekin, too, keep them out of LOS as well.

If you want to play the ranged game, 3 units of Glade Guard and a few units of Glade Riders, supported by your usual suspects (HoD arrow, way watchers maybe) can put out a very significant amount of firepower at 30" - something skaven and greenskins cannot do. Just be sure to take enough magic defence to deal with that, as both can field serious direct damage magic. However, if they are going really magic heavy, they won't be able to muster nearly the numbers they could otherwise.

Scactha
20-10-2005, 20:53
@Wintersdark

As I said before, the free wood is something I donīt have the luxury to count on. Half the time it wont be there. Then itīs about 5 terrainpieces just as you say. And round 2 the whole Bretfront can charge, worst case scenario. The tactics you suggest are all valid but itīll never be an easy matchup. I struggle to escape the forced points denial scenario even in theory unless thereīs enough terrain to work with. Which is a pity really.

Wintersdark
20-10-2005, 21:55
Ultimately, Wood Elves are a highly terrain dependant army. That's just the reality of it. We cannot fight a straight up fight well unless our army is designed as a standard battle line list (IE: Eternal guard, treemen, BSB, etc). However, we do lose a lot going that way, particularly in the points denial department - high cost target units.

Aside from the free wood, 4-5 terrain peices should be enough to hide adequately most times - you should certainly not be having a whole bret army charge you in turn two. Unfortunately, this is something that I can't really comment on without seeing the battlefields in question, your army list, etc. I can say I've played against Chaos cav armies without having a hard time, although only in pitched battles.

As to non-forest battles (scenario based that won't allow the forest) - then it depends entirely on the objectives. You may well not need to kill off a lot of units to win, and we have a LOT of fantastic troops for grabbing markers and the like. In the tournaments you play in, do the scenario objectives make a significant difference in the outcome of the game? What sort of objectives are there?

Scactha
21-10-2005, 07:56
I donīt play a straight up list. Better use our advantages. The only ranked units in there is the GG.

Atm itīs about

Spellweaver, rerollstaff, scroll
Branchwraith, DD spite, Sniper spite
Alter, GW, HoD, Helm
Noble, GE, GW, Hawks Talon, meleespite

2x10 GG
2 x 8 Dryads
5 GR

6 WR
7 Wardancers

GE
Treeman

This works a charm for me. Itīs terrain that bothers. I havenīt met Brets in too open terrain yet. But as I said, I struggle theorise how to handle that without the tarpits or enough terrain to hide in at the same time as you have enough reach for countercharges. Time will tell I guess.

By the way. Have you also noticed the great synergy effects of our list? Some said that we are teamdriven and that is just so true. This has started me to think alot about how to maximise CR generation on an as small frontage as possible. This of course translates into multiples of Alters to co-op with Dryads, Dancers and WR but I also hate bringing the same of stuff and especially characters.