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View Full Version : Undead tactics - ? from an undead NooB



daryl_ks
31-07-2005, 22:23
I have played Wahammer on and off for about 4 years now. I have an empire army and a Chaos one. The community I play in is very small and such I have only ever played against Lizardmen and High Elves... not that this is too bad as I am mainly interested in the hobby side of the game as opposed to the game itself...

Anyhoo... I am looking at starting a new army and have decided to do something in the undead vein....

I see myself as having three options really...

Vampire Counts
Tomb Kings
Or a DoW Undead army - based around The Cursed Company (but having an entire army as opposed to one company)..

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing from people with undead experience as to how the different armies play. What do you see as the individual strengths and weaknesses of the Tomb Kings or the different vampire races....

Cheers!

Daryl

Alco Engineer
31-07-2005, 22:45
Mine's still in progress (VC) but I beleive in having lots of magic. being able to put a unit where you need it by raising it from the ground is invalluable. sure they aren't masters of combat or anything but vanhell's and hellish vigour can make a unit of zombies a reasonable challenge. take the book of Arkhan and staff of Damnation both with necromancers in any game and you'll find yourself with a big headstart.

Brother Frog
31-07-2005, 22:47
I've used Tomb Kings a little, but I have a lot of experience with Vampy Counts.

The first thing to get straight is that if you push Vampy Counts, you are going to lose your first ten games. This is because undead are utterly different to any other army out there.

Your basic troop is useless. Or rather, your basic trooper does not have very good stats. Your opponents will be hitting you on 3+, and your elite regiments are little better than your opponent's core choices.

It isn't all doom and gloom though; your vampires can literally win you the game, and don't forget that you can summon reinforcements every turn - at least as long as you dominate the magic phase...which you must.

Use fear to your advantage. Also, as your troops are immune to break tests, commit them to combat as soon as possible, then keep reinforcing them until you've worn your opponent down with your relentless assaults.

Oh, and you'll lose your first ten games. I know I've already written that, but it is important to remember it.

daryl_ks
31-07-2005, 23:13
Forget first 10 games.... I've hardly ever won a game with ANY army.......



What about the undead DoW idea.... doable?


Cheers!

Daryl

DrkAp0stle
01-08-2005, 00:48
Vampire Counts IMO and in alot of other's is numbers and lots of magic. In 2k I believe that you should only have a vamp count, lords are too much for those points, I believe, 2 necromancers with book of arkhan, scrolls, etc. Either a wight Lord or a thrall for the bsb ability, banner of the barrows with a wight unit. Lots of big blocks of skellies and zombies. IMO the rare choices are all hit and miss, the black coach I dont personally use it because it can die quite easily against some kinds of armies and the banshee I only use against orcs and skaven...skavenslaves dont like banshees.:D


-0Ne

Alco Engineer
01-08-2005, 01:31
Banshees are great against knights. even if you take out 3 or 4 she's paid for herself. Slaves are a bit of a waste of her abilities IMO. Vampire counts are my first and only WHF army but they are great. I won my very first game with them. Just remember....fear is everything. If your opponent doesn't fear you you might have a tougher game on your hands but if you can get new units into the flanks of your opponents you'll find they get very disenheartened that zombies keep popping up from nowhere. and armies that can match you in magic are always a tough fight but just remember that even if you're fighting giants or trolls or anything, your guys will never RUN from combat. they may start to dissappear but as long as you have 1 left you can reinforce them to have more than you started with tieing up expensive offensive units

fubukii
01-08-2005, 02:40
Fubukiis Vampire count tactica Version 1.0

I will break down the various uses of units for a 2000 point battle. And also give the advantages of the various bloodlines.

Vampire lord - shouldnt be used in 2k battles. Too many points and takes a hero and a lord slot.

Vampire Count - Most likely your #1 choice for general. Very surivivable and packs a punch in melee. also a lvl 2 mage.

master necro - Only reconmened if you plan to run a summon horde.

Necro - no matter what type of undead you play i suggest 2 of these. 1 with book of arkan and one with black periapt.

THrall - a mini verrsion of your count packs the most punch of the heroes.

Wight lord - imo slighty inferior to a thrall but gains killing blow so can be useful in challenges.

Wraith - wrothless dont use it period.

CORE

Skels- I suggest you make your units 20-25 if you lack a good amount of magic. If you run a summoning horde 15-20 is normally a good choice. equipment is really depends on how you want to play even with spears you probably still wont kill anything :)

zombies - im not a fan of taking zombies i normally just summon them to block los, march moves and charges.

Dire wolves - fast calv great for flanking.

Ghouls - good for baiting units or massed attacks, they will actually kill something :)

bat swarms - gay dont take them ^.^

Special -

Black knights - Your hardest hitting unit str 6 on charge killing blow these can make quick work of most units on a good charge. i highly suggest these.

Graveguard - black knights on foot 3+ save killing blow str4 not a bad choice either.

Spirit hosts - great for blockin los to your units, ALso a great flanker eteheral.

Fell bats - war machine hunters, march blockers skirmisher killers, mage hunters very useful in Most games.

Rare

Banshee - can be very good for its points good vs semi low ld armies. bad vs imune to pycs armies.

Coach - not a fan of it one str7 attack and boom its dead.

fubukii
01-08-2005, 02:47
Here is a sample "well rounded" vc list.

Strigoi Count lvl2 Regen, iron sinews, summon ghouls - 340 pts (kills stuff wins COmbat makes stuff run very useful :) )
Necro: lvl2 Black per, Dispel scroll 140 (summons stuff etc etc)
Necro lvl 2 book of arkan, dispel scroll 150 (summons stuff, vanhels stuff)
thrall - Bat form 125 ( helps win combats or hunts war machines/mages.)

Skels 20x3 -full cmd 185 per unit
19 177
19 177

2 spirit hosts 130 (guards flank/holds up tougher units with no magic wpns.)
5 black knights (fullcmd) warr banner 182 (flanks)
5 black knights (full cmd) banner of barrows 202 (flanks)

10 dire wolves 100 (blocks los possibly rear attack/flank/hunt fast units)
5 dire wolves 50( ^^^^^^^)
5 gohuls - 40 ( adds a small punch)

total 1998

that is my friendly vc list i use if i dont bring the summoning horde. its porbably best to start out using a well rounded list because summoning hordes require alot of experience to use.

basically just support your units skels wont win on their own. vanhels is your best friend. Use invocation to heal characters asap reinfoce units. Also another strength is too summon a unit to march block and vanhels them into a unit for rear charge. you will get the hang of it just takes a lil getting used too.

daryl_ks
01-08-2005, 09:13
Can't say I'm really that fond of the Strigoi models however...

I kinda quite like both the Von Carstein models and the Blood Dragons...

I guess the Strigoi are more CC orientated... What's the difference with the Carstein's and the Blood Dragons?

Are the BD's more CC orientated as well?

Cheers!

Daryl

Brother Frog
01-08-2005, 10:21
Von Carsteins are the bog-standard vampire, with bloodlines akin to those from legend.

Blood Dragons are MUCH more combat orientated (including their bloodline abilities), but suffer in the magic department.


I personally would suggest you go with a bog-standard list to begin with (regardless of what models you use) until you are confident enough to branch out and try new bloodlines and/or the lists in the back of the book.

Bubble Ghost
01-08-2005, 10:23
Wraith - wrothless dont use it period.

It causes terror, it can move 12" regardless of enemy position and it can't be harmed by missile fire. That's absolutely immense. And that's even without accounting for the fact that they're invincible to the everyone and their dog who picks great weapons for their heroes. Wraiths are great.



bat swarms - gay dont take them ^.^

Again, you're not talking sense, man. Bat swarms are absolutely awesome. Take two of them and almost NOTHING is going to get past them in one round. They're virtually an automatic one-turn stall for any enemy unit you like. That's invaluable.

Fubukii's Vampire count tactica Version 1.0 needs a patch.:p



All Vampires are close combat orientated. You can't have 5 expensive strength 5 attacks sat around doing nothing. Even for Necrarchs, tactical deployment of vampire attacks is central to how well you do. Carsteins have slightly better magic and better all-round powers than Blood Dragons, who excel at killing stuff and not much else.

zephyro
01-08-2005, 13:13
Since no-one has said anything about TK yet then, I will.

Tk are a very special army, having to use almost all units in other ways than different races.

Their have really good magic, being able to walk again, fight again (or shoot) and heal every single unit on the battlefield, unfortunatly not above starting number.
They can't miscast or something like that, and you can even cast spells with powerlevel 0 :p.

Where they excel in real well, is flanking.IT's all about, pinning units with your warrior units and such, and then hammering them in the flank with a unit of chariots or ushabtis (or other).

They are also the best (IMO) army for anti-artillery/mage hunting.
Tomb scorpions are just godly, and carrion and tomb swarms are also really capable and good uses against mages and warmachines.

As with other undead armies, if you won't use tactics with them, you just will not win.

Tk also have a huge psychological factor on your opponent. The best part for this is the Casket of Souls, with opponents in fear of what would happen IF it went through their magic defense, and I would throw lots of 5's and 6's.They will make mistakes because of this, and you will have a big smile on your face (at least I did :P)

Then, Tk can be played in almost all manners, but magic should always be plenty in your army, it just makes your units 10 times better.

I coudl go on and on about this, but I think his should be enough. If you want more I'll take my time and do that :).

Zephyro

fubukii
01-08-2005, 18:41
It causes terror, it can move 12" regardless of enemy position and it can't be harmed by missile fire. That's absolutely immense. And that's even without accounting for the fact that they're invincible to the everyone and their dog who picks great weapons for their heroes. Wraiths are great.




Again, you're not talking sense, man. Bat swarms are absolutely awesome. Take two of them and almost NOTHING is going to get past them in one round. They're virtually an automatic one-turn stall for any enemy unit you like. That's invaluable.

Fubukii's Vampire count tactica Version 1.0 needs a patch.:p


for 90-140 points i think a wraith is pretty worthless, while you can get say 1 3rd or fourth necromancer or another character that can actually fight.


Blood dragons are very great in combat, among the best character killers in the game. A good combo with a blood dragon is - Red fury, Killing blow, ring of night, Honour or death with a gw. Honour and death may be useless vs certain armies but at str7 you dont need the +1 str and well its only 10 points and may save you from being stuck in a challenge :).

Carestins are more of a tactical vampire with Skills like +1cr, and 18in general ld. also the carestin ring is insane :)

and about bat swarms there is a reason people do not take them. 60 points for a horrible unit choice. If you want to hold up a unit summon a snake formation zombie unit 1inch from the unit you wish to hold up or for 5 more points you can take the ever so great spirit hosts.

Bubble Ghost
01-08-2005, 23:04
and about bat swarms there is a reason people do not take them. 60 points for a horrible unit choice. If you want to hold up a unit summon a snake formation zombie unit 1inch from the unit you wish to hold up or for 5 more points you can take the ever so great spirit hosts.
Spirit hosts are great but they serve a different purpose to swarms; ghosts are a capable aggressive unit, and are far less points-efficient at blocking large enemy units than bat swarms. If you're using a spirit host just to block enemy units you're wasting it. Besides, you can only have one spirit host, and they're less mobile than bat swarms too.

Zombie-summoning is horribly unreliable as a means of directly blocking enemies - and if I'm using my magic to summon zombies to fulfil a role I could have bought a unit to do right from the start, I consider that a waste of points invested in magic. I'd rather be doing other stuff with it.

Who are these mysterious "people" who don't take bat swarms? I see enough of them around. Bat swarms are brilliant.



for 90-140 points i think a wraith is pretty worthless, while you can get say 1 3rd or fourth necromancer or another character that can actually fight.
That's a matter of playing style, not outright fact. Casting spells or directly killing things isn't the be all and end all of characters' usefulness. I think a wraith is anything but worthless, for reasons I've already mentioned.

fubukii
01-08-2005, 23:21
Actually summoning zombies units to control how your enemy moves and what he can charge is a common tactic that every summoning horde should use. I play a 4 necro vc list you must use the magic to its full advantage.

Alco Engineer
01-08-2005, 23:37
Terror is very underrated. I know you already cause fear but if you can break an enemy without having to charge them that makes life a whole lot easier. remember that phsycology is the greatest (possibly 2nd to magic) weapon that the undead have at their disposal so make good use of it. the fact that the wraith can't be hurt by non magical weapons makes him tough for an enemy relying on taking him on with their characters or beating him via combat res.....or ignoring him completely

daryl_ks
02-08-2005, 01:03
I actually think the bat swarms look very cool.... and would fit invery well with the dracula-ish Von Carsteins....

As I am totally tactically inept I tend to go for armies that can show off a little bit of painting skill and also are fluffy...

Tomb Kings do look pretty damn cool... but there would probably be a lot of gold to paint... I just finished my Chaos InKhornAte army... tons of red and gold...

I guess you could do Tomb Kings ina different color but then you would lose some of that Egyptian "feel"...

I kinda like the idea of the Cursed Company figures...

Maybe I could go with the idea of a Vampire Count who has been fighting for soooo long and simply summoning from the ranks of his vanquished foes... and therefore tons of differing races filling the ranks of his skeletal hords....

Of course that would take lots of money and time in terms of getting different figures and converting...

Has anyone had any experience doing this?


Cheers!

Daryl

fubukii
02-08-2005, 01:25
btw is this your first army? i wouldnt suggest starting if its your first as they arent very adept fighters and normally require a bit more of experience then the average army.

daryl_ks
02-08-2005, 01:32
This would be my fourth army... I currently have a Chaos Undivided army (with quite a few beasts), a Chaos Khorn army, and an Empire army (Grand army of Averland theme)...

so not my first...

But as I said prior, I don't really do this for the gaming as I do suck and am totally tactically inept... I want to do an Undead army as I think it would look cool and would give me the incentive to create an undead themed gaming terrain board as well... lots of grave yards and dead trees....etc...


Cheers!

Daryl

fubukii
02-08-2005, 01:36
tomb kings have cooler models so if you are going jsut for look id look to their direction :)

Alco Engineer
02-08-2005, 03:44
I think with a bit of imagination you can create a monster of a VC army. Especially if you don't stick to the standard models for troops. Characters can make cool conversions too. Just remember than everything in the WHF world (except daemons) die so let you creativity run wild.

Tastyfish
02-08-2005, 09:32
Sylvanian army is there as well as an option if you like the Von Casteins - rather than mages they have a host of bound spells that call forth undead each turn, and are also able to summon dire wolves.

They can equip zombies with LA, HW and shield too I think

Bubble Ghost
02-08-2005, 16:47
Actually summoning zombies units to control how your enemy moves and what he can charge is a common tactic that every summoning horde should use. I play a 4 necro vc list you must use the magic to its full advantage.

Aha, that's why we're disagreeing. I use less magic than that, and even when I don't, I don't like having to rely on a whole series of dice rolls all going my way to cast a spell properly. Given that, bat swarms are by far the best option for my playing style. Either way it doesn't mean they're rubbish just because they don't fit your personal way of playing.

~

On topic, anyway, I'd stick with Vamps if you want a change in painting style, as you said. I've never seen an army that makes massive use of Cursed Company figures but my gut tells me it would be tricky to get the army looking coherent if you did. I imagine it would help to pick a bold colour for their shields, the less complicated the better, and perhaps not make the bone paint scheme too bright. Just a guess.

daryl_ks
02-08-2005, 21:32
But that would the beauty of such an army in that it would not look very coherent... in terms that each fig would be very 'individual'... of course there would still need to be defining themes running throughout the army but these could be achieved with symbols and colors...

Cheers!

Daryl

Bubble Ghost
02-08-2005, 21:56
But that would the beauty of such an army in that it would not look very coherent... in terms that each fig would be very 'individual'... of course there would still need to be defining themes running throughout the army but these could be achieved with symbols and colors...

That's what I meant - that's why I suggested using a simple shield design, to overcome the fact that the models are a bit scattergun. Other armies have similar stylistic features that can unite them a bit despite complex designs, but with an army heavily based around very individual models I think it would pay to use simple, bold shields to draw them together. It could definitely look very nice though.

Not really tactics now, though, is it?:p

daryl_ks
02-08-2005, 22:14
Hey... whenever I play there are never ANY tactics involved.....

I wuld never sully my reputation with such niceties..

Cheers!

Daryl

Alco Engineer
03-08-2005, 00:29
after a game last night I'm having my doubts about magical superiority. I rules the game but couldn't get a dice roll off and that left my opponent able to dispel my bound spells every turn....what a waste.

Bubble Ghost
03-08-2005, 01:18
Hey... whenever I play there are never ANY tactics involved.....

I wuld never sully my reputation with such niceties.

Rather begs the question of why you posted this in the Tactics forum then.:D

daryl_ks
03-08-2005, 06:01
It probably does.... MODS, hurry and up and move this inane thread....

Cheers!

Daryl