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spikedog
10-04-2007, 10:18
OK I searched for similar threads and couldn't find anything. I also looked over the VC tactica but it focuses more on the characters and hard hitting units so here is my question...

Why are Zombies good?

I just don't get it, they cost only 2 points less than a Skellie but they hit last, have no armour and crumble a little faster.

I use them quite a lot in battle but I ONLY ever raise them, I have never found a reason to buy them. So please Warseer, if you use Zombies in a starting list, why?

EDIT: Oh and I am talking purely game terms here, we all know Zombies rock in terms of background, atmosphere and looks.

EndlessBug
10-04-2007, 10:42
because for that 2 pts per model you can get many more outnumbering fear causing models? ... and who cares if they die? they're like Skaven slaves. also a useful throwaway tarpit

just an outsiders view, never played as VC's and not really played against them either.

Vilicate
10-04-2007, 10:47
They're way better than skeletons. You pay 10 pts a model for a real skeleton, so you're saving yourself 4 pts a model for the zombies. Plus, the raise a lot easier, and they make good raised units.

If i were going to play vampires again, i'd play with exclusively zombies for my ranked troops.

Makaber
10-04-2007, 11:18
Skeletons and zombies perform the same job, which is to tie stuff up and being many of them. Wether the zombies hit last or not is largely irrelevant because both are highly unlikely to do any real damage anyway. So in the end, it boils down to skeletons being a bit harder to kill, but zombies being more and easier to raise. Personal preference I guess.

oop
10-04-2007, 11:47
It comes to my mind the day when a 106 pts unit of theese sweeties finished a tooled up khorne daemon prince...

blurred
10-04-2007, 12:09
I recall a game where my friend's huge unit of zombies with a vampire charged 21 HE spearmen (7*3 formation) with a hero. The hero challenged the vampire and after that...God! It was like throwing kittens into a meat grinder. I constantly won the combat with 7 or 8 points. Never ever (!!) charge zombies into anything with lots of attacks. :)

Tutore
10-04-2007, 12:30
Zombies are very good, although I think there should be skeletons and zombies in an army. Skeletons are better against infantry IMO: they may have a good 4+ armour save, they are difficult to kill. Zombies die in masses, but cost less, and are pretty to block important enemies, like cavarly for example. You lose a unit, but you block him. I'm not a VC player, but I've found many players using them that way.

sephiroth87
10-04-2007, 12:41
I take them because I can mumble "Braaaaiiiiiins" to my opponent as I run his unit down with a 70 point unit of zombies.

Hellish Vigour + Zombies = Pretty good unit.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
10-04-2007, 12:54
EDIT: Oh and I am talking purely game terms here, we all know Zombies rock in terms of background, atmosphere and looks.

you've got to be joking! They're probably the worst army IMO. If you want my advice (which you probably dont ;) ) dont get them.

EvC
10-04-2007, 13:05
Zombies are rubbish, even with Hellish Vigour. Do not aim to win a combat with them, they are just there to buy you some time or intimidate your opponents until the heavy hitters arrive.

The other week I charged a unit of 25 into the flank of some regular Orc Boyz (with two choppas each). The entire unit was dead within three combat phases, even with the +4CR for flank charge and three ranks...

Vattendroppe
10-04-2007, 16:42
As been said, two pts less a model can be quite many extra models in the end. Fielding only necromancers with loads and loads of powerdice and stuff wih mostly zombies can be devestating. MANY ZOMBIES! AND THEY WON'T ********** EVER DIE, GAAAAAH! Auto-breaking, feartests, outnumbering, rottening flesh and so on and so forth.

No, but you can get so many extra models with zombies and they're easier to raise, in the end it can pay off to have some zombies.

Mister Hat
10-04-2007, 17:40
They key to using zombies is to raise them and danse them into the enemies flank. They are also good as a cheap bunker in which to stick your necros.

Never take zombies - always raise them in-game. Take small units of armoured skellies so you can pump them up later.

forgottenlor
10-04-2007, 18:04
I was always told zombies suck, but now I always play them. Lets face it, skeletons suck. Who are they going to beat in combat? Skeletons have the same stat line as a goblin (except leadership) and goblins cost freaking 3 points each. The fact is without a vampire both of these units will really struggle to win combat. I always buy a skeleton unit for my vampire (since they won't dinsintegrate so fast) and buy my zombie units as a spongue. You need at least 25 though. Don't play with less or they'll disintegrate in no time. You need numbers to keep yourself in combat. My zombies suck opponents in, forever and ever, unit I hit them in the flank with something.

Deathknight
10-04-2007, 18:26
They do suck. If you think you are going to actually going to kill something with them in CC, and win combat with their combat prowness, your delusional...:eyebrows:

Zombies and skeletons serve one purpose, and one purpose only, in VC armies. Meatshielding tar pits. They hold the enemy in place till you can hit them with something heavy. Better to have more than less, hence, why zombies are better. You get more of 'em.

Cragspyder
10-04-2007, 20:22
And there you have it, the final verdict.

Zombies do suck. That's the point of them.

Shimmergloom
10-04-2007, 20:28
I was always told zombies suck, but now I always play them. Lets face it, skeletons suck. Who are they going to beat in combat? Skeletons have the same stat line as a goblin (except leadership) and goblins cost freaking 3 points each.


I love how you leave out the fact that skellies are immune to psyche. Unbreakable. Cause fear. Don't fear elves. Don't have animosity. Have a better combat save. And you can raise NEW skellies during the game. But oh they have the same stats as goblins who are only 3pts!

It's the other way around. Skellies are ONLY 8pts for all that while goblins are 3pts with none of the skellie advantages and 2 negative special rules.

greymeister
10-04-2007, 20:47
I disagree with the fact that zombies are more economical than skeletons. Sure you save a couple of points per model, but you ALWAYS go last and you NEVER get a save.

I seem to will notice that everyone who suggests you use zombies as your tarpit basically do it under the premise that you will be summoning lots of them. I have no luck at all when it comes to the magic phase in WHFB, so I never count on that. In fact, most of my VC army lists contain little or no magic other than magic defense like scrolls, but that is a topic for a different thread.

I think one of the coolest features of the Army of Sylvania list was that you could have zombies with 4+ saves (I think that's what it was at least). Now with that I'm considering using some of my guys as Zombie Levy, but other than that the only real reason to even use zombies is that they are easier to summon, so if you want to go the horde route then you get one to three extra zombies based on your casting level. Gee, I think I'll stick with Skeletons/Sylvania Militia for my army.

Lord Inquisitor
10-04-2007, 21:00
I use them quite a lot in battle but I ONLY ever raise them, I have never found a reason to buy them. So please Warseer, if you use Zombies in a starting list, why?
That's exactly what I do. I buy skeletons for my starting units. Then if I raise additional skeletons to those units then that's adding more expensive and more effective troops.

But then if I'm raising new units they don't get command groups anyway, and they are never there to win the battle on their own. You need the magic minimum of 5 - with a medium-level Invocation, that's a gamble with 2D6 skeletons, but 35/36 all but assured if raising zombies. Plus the unit raised is worth less victory points per model if raised as zombies.

Buy skeletons, raise zombies. Besides, it makes sense! Those undead that you turn up with are long dead. Those that you raise as new units are far more ... fresh...

Da Black Gobbo
10-04-2007, 21:03
I think they are very very usefull, you can use them as a screen, 40 zombies in two lines of 20 can stop a whole army or force it to shoot them till all of them die, if the enemy charges and kill them in a turn you will be able to charge on your turn, i think they are worth it and you should consider to take them.

spikedog
10-04-2007, 23:59
Thanks for all the replies guys, I think most of you missed the point but thanks anyway!

As said I love using zombies and I know how to use them, tarpits, line of sight blockers, crossfire etc. I just don't see the point in buying them in a starting list however the Necromancer + bucket load of Zombies list I can see working well.

I guess I will just stick to summoning them for now however.

Necrothrall
11-04-2007, 00:49
I love my zombies (in a plutonic way, not in a sick necrophilic way). But thats mainly because my ones are really flukey and have a habbit of battering (thats from wounding not through combat resolution), some of the hardest things my opponents have thrown at them. Including 2 chaos lords (actually it was the same one in 2 different games), a Lord of Change (now that was entertaining), a unit of troll slayers, a hell cannon, and a wyvern mounted black orc warboss.

By first glance zombies suck. Mine however have put my more elite units to shame. A chaos player who I regularly play against is terrified to go near them.

Deftoneus
11-04-2007, 01:11
I love my zombies (in a plutonic way, not in a sick necrophilic way).

roflol...new sig quote. :D

greymeister
11-04-2007, 12:35
I just don't see the point in buying them in a starting list however the Necromancer + bucket load of Zombies list I can see working well.

I guess I will just stick to summoning them for now however.

Well this is basically the only use for them, and magic phases will vary wildly depending on your opponent and your dice rolling that day. So basing an army on Zombie raising isn't such a good idea, but having some zombies to raise new units of can be useful.

[dice0]

captaincortez
11-04-2007, 12:59
I once saw a zombie SUCK the brains out of an ambulance driver's head and then say "send more paramedics" into the radio.

Malicus
11-04-2007, 15:53
I disagree with the fact that zombies are more economical than skeletons. Sure you save a couple of points per model, but you ALWAYS go last and you NEVER get a save.

I have no luck at all when it comes to the magic phase in WHFB, so I never count on that.

Let's say you take 25 skellies with light armor for 250pts. Now you have a 5+ save and you are able to attack first sometimes. They move just as slow as zombies so they're not going to be charging in most cases to there goes one of the advantages. With their 2 initiative they're probably not going to be attacking first after that anyway. The save is nice, but when you look at what these two units are supposed to be used for it's unnecessary. They're SUPPOSED to die!

Face it! Neither one of these units are going to kill anyone by wounding them. Not to say they never will, but I play a house rule that when a zombie causes a wound I chug my current beer (and I haven't had to do that often). The job of these units is to outnumber and cause fear to the enemy and win with static combat res. Also, holding up units for the big boys to flank. I can't tell you how many times I've destroyed entire units without causing a single wound with a 40 block of zombies. Now that's not something I count on, but it happens more than I expected. Stick a character in with those zombies and now you have a formiddable force.

The fact that you seem to be lacking in the magic phase (which should happen very rarely for VC) further demonstrates why you need to be bringing in more troops at the beginning if you don't think you'll be bringing any back.

VC core is all about numbers. Fact is if you look at them on paper BOTH of these units suck. It's all about numbers no matter how you want to believe otherwise. I've seen and experimented with both ways over my 4 years of playing VC and since coming to this realization I can't remember the last time I fielded or raised a single skeleton in any of my armies.

I've probably mentioned this in every post I've ever commented in. COMBAT RESOLUTION is how you play VC core troops. 25 bodies, compared to 40 bodies for the same cost just can't be ignored!! Sorry for the novel, but once i get going I can't stop.

Jedi152
11-04-2007, 16:09
In the entire Carnage tournament, my zombies (2 units of 20) managed to kill one silver helm. One.

So it's hard not to think they do suck, but as Malicus said, VC's are all about the numbers game.

Inkosi
11-04-2007, 16:22
Interesting.

Reminds me of a list i saw in the Druchii forums quite a while ago.

this lady came up with an all zombie list. excluding the heros which were necromancers i think and items to enhance summoning.

she had big units of zombies cant remember was it 30 or more and some small units.

thats all she had. she mentioned she was inspired by the zombie movies and she was doing very well with it the last time i saw her battle reports.

her whole idea is to summon more than you can kill. which i must say was very successful, she fought with many armies and manage to chalk up quite a number of victories so the list did seem feasible.

let me see if i can dig that thread out from Druchii.

DesertDirge
11-04-2007, 17:59
Thats a list that does do well.. the problem being... make that list and add a few other units to make the game more enjoyable for your opponent (cause necros and zombies are fun for me... not my opponent)

ice5nake
11-04-2007, 20:03
Reasons to take zombies to start:
They satisfy a core unit slot for a small cost.
You can deploy them across from an enemy unit you suspect is not immune to p, unbreakable, or causes fear.

Someday I'll try this; I just got a second regiment of zombies so ... 40 zombies (8 wide, 5 deep, with standard bearer) with a Vampire/Wight Lord carrying the terror causing battle standard, or perhaps wearing the wailing helm. Maybe a count elsewhere with lore of death terror causing spell.

If you take the battle standard option and don't get flanked that's a plus +5 CR

Have a necromancer with the V. Dance spell magic book item or just the spell itself or better yet both.

Anyway, 8 inch march plus 8 dance. 16 inches across the battlefield. 6 inches for terror. 22inches. That puts you almost in terror range on the first turn with a giant unit of zombies.

So on the first turn you have a giant walking meat wall that if the enemy tries to charge they may end up running away. (If they're move is more than 6 they may even run off the board).

If you have some fell bats swoop them into a nice flanking postion on anyone that tries to hit your zombies and you might win a combat.

EvC
11-04-2007, 21:14
The job of these units is to outnumber and cause fear to the enemy and win with static combat res.

And if you're saving a third of the wounds caused to your units because of a skeleton's hand weapon and shield armour save, then you're far more likely to win, outnumber and auto-break your opponent.

larabic
11-04-2007, 21:34
My friend refers to his unit of 30ish zombies as his "black gem of gnar" for those of you that are in the way back machine like me.

Lord Inquisitor
11-04-2007, 21:36
Not to mention that if you can get the charge, you can actually cause some kills that will a) reduce the return attacks and b) add to your combat resolution. There are troops out there like Bloodletters that aren't that tough you couldn't kill at least one or two with a charging unit of skeletons, but the combat resolution they can inflict in return is phenomenal. I made the mistake of charging bloodletters with zombies thinking that with only a couple of daemons able to fight a flank charge I'd obviously win. Obviously not. And skeletons rather than zombies might have done the trick.

Put another way, zombies compared with skeletons with spears - you can get three zombies for every two skeletons. But the skeletons can get either a 5+ save or twice as many attacks in combat. I personally charge quite often with my skeletons - often after drawing my enemy out with risen zombies.

Malicus
11-04-2007, 23:19
And if you're saving a third of the wounds caused to your units because of a skeleton's hand weapon and shield armour save, then you're far more likely to win, outnumber and auto-break your opponent.

True, against an average unit you will statistically save 1/3 of the wounds caused. But an average against 40 zombies w/ standard & musician (equivilant to 25 skellies w/ light armor) have to land every one of their 5 attacks. So yeah, skeletons are a little bit harder to hit, but the fact still remains that they are there to die. And neither one of them are going to be doing much killing. So again, it becomes about the numbers. You are not generally going to save 15 wounds over the course of a battle that you would have to to make up for the 15 extra zombies you'll have. And I won't even get into the fact that they are easier to raise.

The reality is they are both pretty balanced for what they do. My personal opinion is that I would rather have the numbers for a unit that I want to tie people down with, and outnumber/autobreak with fear. Regardless of what unit you prefer I don't think it's really going to sway the battle much either way. I have just had more success with zombie tactics than with skellie tactics so I prefer them.

Hywel
11-04-2007, 23:39
In brief: Skeletons are rubbish fighters. Zombies are rubbish fighters. Zombies are cheaper.

Neither are going to win a combat on their own, both will hold the enemy. So if you're taking a unit without a character to lead it, it might as well be zombies.

EvC
12-04-2007, 00:14
True, against an average unit you will statistically save 1/3 of the wounds caused. But an average against 40 zombies w/ standard & musician (equivilant to 25 skellies w/ light armor) have to land every one of their 5 attacks. So yeah, skeletons are a little bit harder to hit, but the fact still remains that they are there to die. And neither one of them are going to be doing much killing. So again, it becomes about the numbers. You are not generally going to save 15 wounds over the course of a battle that you would have to to make up for the 15 extra zombies you'll have. And I won't even get into the fact that they are easier to raise.

Skeletons with Light Armour you say now? In that case make it a 4+ save! And remember, every saved wound not only means one less casualty, but it means one less Skeleton will crumble due to CR while you're trying to outlast your opponent. So it's not really 15 saves to make up for it, it's more like 8. I can imagine an undead unit taking 15 wounds and saving half of them in total in combat quite easily... plus the zombie unit will fall to even the most pathetic missile fire (High Elf Archers ;) ) and a third of the Skeletons will survive.

Though it's really apples and oranges, a unit of 40 Zombies is as good as 25 Skeletons, I'll agree- but the Skeletons do actually have a chance of doing something occasionally whereas the Zombies never will (Unless you're NecroThrall, who presumable has laoded dice).

tyrion11482
12-04-2007, 00:42
ive been playing a list with the VC of storm of chaos with big blocks of zombies so they have armor saves and big blocks of drakenhouf gaurd. you know the guys that are grave gaurd with full plate and great weapons and they seem to work wonders and people fear the zombies with armor saves!!!!

gorenut
12-04-2007, 01:01
both are worth taking. Zombies for just extra bodies, but I think skeletons are better for protecting chraracters. Besides the armor saves and attacking at initiative,skeletons can also take full commands. While musicians aren't as useful, banners and champions can come in very handy. If your general happens to be a necromancer or Necarch, the champ can accept the challenges.

While I do see the benefits of taking zombies, I think you get more of your summons worth when you summon more skeletons with LA and Shield (remember, they are raised with the same equip as the squad). As far as random tarpits and raising new units, I use zombies.

Scythe
12-04-2007, 09:58
Well, zombies can take the banner and musician, they only lose out on the champion (a minor drawback). But I must say both units are usefull in different roles. Skeletons generally have better combat resolution scores at full strenght, since they don't die that easily, but zombies are a lot more numberous, and so keep their static resolution longer. What you take depends a lot on personal preference and what you are looking for in a unit. In generally field both.

forgottenlor
12-04-2007, 11:53
Skeletons extra save is largely good against strength 3 attacks. This can be useful. If you are fighting high strength opponents though (and there are plenty strength 4 and 5 stuff), your expensive save isn't worth the points. With a group of zombies you can always count on dying. With skeletons you can lose a really expensive unit against chaos knights just as easily as a unit of zombies. What is 4 points for a skeleton unit with light armor, some have asked. With 25 skeletons its 75 points. That's a hell of a lot. Its 12 zombies. Do you think 25 Skeletons or 37 Zombies will die quicker?

forgottenlor
12-04-2007, 11:55
I also didn't mean that goblins were better than skeletons. I would much rather play skeletons, but I never count on my skeletons killing (and neither do goblins) anything, and they don't usually let me down.

greymeister
12-04-2007, 14:41
Though it's really apples and oranges, a unit of 40 Zombies is as good as 25 Skeletons, I'll agree- but the Skeletons do actually have a chance of doing something occasionally whereas the Zombies never will (Unless you're NecroThrall, who presumable has laoded dice).

This is basically my opinion and why I don't take any zombies in a standard VC army. If I try to summon a new unit or something then I will summon zombies because it's just more likely that I'll get the necessary 5. Other than that they are pretty pointless considering how many die due to CR and that they always go last and always have no save. I've had many an occasion where there'd be 25+ zombies against a standard 20 man unit of infantry and I wouldn't outnumber after only the first combat because every wound means I remove a zombie, and for the most part at combat resolution I must remove another zombie because of the one that died. This is another good case for why 25 Skeletons are actually better than 40 zombies, because 40 zombies will outnumber longer but they won't have any more CR than Skeletons do because of the limit on rank bonuses.

Malicus
12-04-2007, 16:36
Skeletons with Light Armour you say now? In that case make it a 4+ save!


I overlooked that! I'm glad you brought that up, cause I would have never had a reason to look that up. There's actually an exact example in the book on pg. 56 that details that.

I think, even though I haven't had any problems with my zombies, that I'll dust off my skellies for the next battle and see if I can agree with you. I still feel the numbers are better, but I'll try fielding slightly smaller units of skellies and save my zombo's for raising. I'll let you know what I think.

EvC
12-04-2007, 17:55
Well in general you convinced me that their worth is just about even, but I really do think the smaller unit of Skeletons has the edge due to the added possibility of greatness. Last game I faced about 15 attacks from a pumped-up unit of Orc Big Uns in one turn, who caused four wounds, and I saved three of them... if they had been Zombies, that would have been three more dead and combat lost by another three, and zero attacks back. You probably won't work wonders with them either way though :D

Marcel
12-04-2007, 19:24
uhhh... they never run away, they cause fear, are immune to psychology, you can raise more of them, theyre cheap, expendable, are a good meat shield for the rest of your army, you can put a character in a big unit with a standard, and you'll probably win combat, out number the enemy and kill them.

Marcel
12-04-2007, 19:26
Well in general you convinced me that their worth is just about even, but I really do think the smaller unit of Skeletons has the edge due to the added possibility of greatness. Last game I faced about 15 attacks from a pumped-up unit of Orc Big Uns in one turn, who caused four wounds, and I saved three of them... if they had been Zombies, that would have been three more dead and combat lost by another three, and zero attacks back. You probably won't work wonders with them either way though :D

but the good thing is that those orcs charged zombies, so as a good intelligent VC player you mobbed him the following turn, right?!

Da GoBBo
12-04-2007, 19:31
zombies vs orcs with 2 choppa's, vs elven spearman, vs big uns, vs big, big blocks ... no wonder people keep loosing em. Have you never considered the role big blocks perform in this game? Zombies are terrible fighters, just like goblins, skaven empire etc. but all these bulky units have there place. One of those is indeed to soak damage and be in the others path, but also to engage small units of elite meatgrinders, like kroxigor, treeman and most cavalry. Goblins do fine at this, even when reseiving a charge, but I can imagine zombies exelling at that. Zombies are relliable. You can expect them to do what you want em to do, be at the place you want em to be because the cause fear.
This is the best way to use big blocks IMO. Forcing your enemy into a position where you can do this is difficult, but also what this game is all about.
Small (zombie) units can't do all this, they can't soak damage and they can't be a real hinderence (they'll just be overrun), they can't tie units for long and they can't rout small blocks of elite. Worse of all, you can't relie on them since you don't know what kind of anti magic the opponent has or how the dice role.
They have there place of course, If you manage to raise em things can get ugly but most of the time its a nuisance at best. Plus, other units can fill that place as well, although these raised units are allways a bit more unexpected of course.

All in all I favour big blocks and I do think they'r worth taking on your starting list as well. This is solely because of the fact that you can build tactics around em, and all are valid tactics as well.

lparigi34
12-04-2007, 20:04
Zombies don't suck... Zombies don't suck... Zombies don't suck... Zombies don't suck...

I hope I convinced you :p

Dark Hippie
12-04-2007, 20:14
because they cause fear and can be reserected very easily

EvC
12-04-2007, 21:01
but the good thing is that those orcs charged zombies, so as a good intelligent VC player you mobbed him the following turn, right?!

No, the Orcs (Plus Black Orc Big Boss, plus Savage Orc shaman) charged the Skeletons in question, and combat was mostly even because he elected to use spears... then in my turn I raised a new unit of Zombies behind him, while in the combat phase he unleashed the Banner of Butchery to give him the 15 attacks. Since he didn't kill enough Skeletons, and there was a rank-busting unit of Zombies about to charge his rear, he conceded the game there and then...

Wintersdark
12-04-2007, 22:25
Both have their place, to be sure. I've seen the skelly units escorting vamps on numerous occasions do very well as they lose slightly fewer models, helping CR, as that unit is intended to actually fight thanks to the vamp. It's worthwhile to raise into the unit as well; you get a lot of "bang for your buck" raising fully equipped skeletons.

If there's no character in the unit, though, skeletons are largely pointless. Only take smaller (25 strong) zombie blocks though if you've got a significant magical presence and can rely on reinforcing the unit (ideally before combat - once your in combat you want to get flank/rear units created). If you've got less magic though, particularly in a mixed sort of army (skelly units with vamps) then get fatter blocks of zombies, so they can hold in a fight for a good long time.

Remember as well, zombies are best used to tie up high strength/low attack units, particularly ones without full rank bonuses (though that's ok). High elf spears; witch elves, etc chew through zombies VERY fast.

Key to vampires; much like pretty much every army, is matching units in ways advantageous to you. With any trash/horde unit (goblins, zombies, skeletons, etc) it's very important to use them intellegently, don't just try to match units 1:1 and hope for the best.

Zombies are best used to hold a unit in place, either to nullify it completely, or set it up for flanking etc. I've seen single zombie units pin down rediculously powerful - and expensive - units for the entirety of the game. It's happened to me enough times! If you can use an ~100pt unit to remove a 300pt unit from the game, you're coming out well ahead.

tyrion11482
29-04-2007, 17:48
I also like to run the big von carstien lord with the ring and a GW in a block of 40 and watch him roll through stuff.

ashc
29-04-2007, 21:52
I've always viewed zombies as awesome speedbump units to summon to really scupper your enemies battle plans.

As for buying a whole unit themselves before the game, i really would rather have tooled up skellies.

Ash

Nickn
30-04-2007, 00:08
You have probabaly already heard this but i didnt read through all the replies but 4 my counts thisis howi use em. I have 25-30 strong on both my flanks soany annoying calvery trying toget my flank to kill me in combat res wont work. They will meet a major tar pit on the way in my zombies tak about 15 casulties 1st rond due to lances and flank but after that the 15 left can hold you there for a good 2 turns. i also have to bring alot back if i want that 400 pnt chosen knight unit to do nothing all game except kill a 150 pnt zombie unit.

as for the screen i prefer gouls for skelies and wolves for knights that way you can actually flee as a charge reaction hell move have movement and you get the charge

rockforchumps
30-04-2007, 22:02
Zombies are a screen-ish thing if I ever saw one. What stops war machines, guns, and magic better than a pile of freshly reanimated corpses who can sit there and take 75% casualties without their master shedding a tear? Nothing, and I repeat myself, Nothing.

Whether its Wood Elf bows, High Elf Magic, Dwarven gunmen, or even the nastier shock troops, your zombies can take it all. They don't care what happens to themselves, and neither should you. Its better than heavy armor. Leaves you with a 0% chance of taking casualties (In units you care about).

Hell, with a little bit of luck and a lot-o-zombies, you can send the enemies running out of sheer numbers/scary corpishness. All that remains is a little cleanup from one of your faster units (Undead cav?) and the entire unit is gone, without you even entering combat (once again, with a unit that matters). Hope I shed some light on the matter. Zombies are there to die and scare people senseless.

Scythe
01-05-2007, 07:57
Zombies are a screen-ish thing if I ever saw one. What stops war machines, guns, and magic better than a pile of freshly reanimated corpses who can sit there and take 75% casualties without their master shedding a tear? Nothing, and I repeat myself, Nothing.


Goblins or Gnoblars perhaps? ;)

But I see your point. :D

Kedlav
01-05-2007, 08:30
Goblins or Gnoblars perhaps? ;)

But I see your point. :D

Goblins and Gnoblars will run away if they take 75% casualties 9 times in 10. Zombies will sit there and like it

Scythe
01-05-2007, 09:20
Not so much if a general is near.

And don't forget there will be twice as many gobbos as there are zombies, and trice as many gnoblars.

Vattendroppe
01-05-2007, 09:24
The funny thing with zombies is that they can be raised. Gnoblins (my brain lost its way, that was meant to be goblins and gnoblars) cannot.

Scythe
01-05-2007, 09:26
Sure, but then 1 necromancer w. items = 50 goblins pts wise.

But I am getting this tread derailed here. Zombies are good value for expendable units, if only for their reliability.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
01-05-2007, 20:23
All Undead Core troops suck, so you might as well pay as little as possible. That is my philosophy and why I only pay for Zombies. I win through outnumbers and autobreaks, so the more the better.

Beyond that, the modelling/painting opportunies are much, much better with Zombies. I have 80 that I created from 2 boxes of Zombies and 2 boxes of Empire Militia, and they are some of my coolest looking models...


...I can't remember the last time I fielded or raised a single skeleton in any of my armies.

Word. My 60 Skeletons are now dispersed in my Zombie units and counted as Zombies. I much prefer the numbers to the increased resilience which doesn't even apply against stronger units. I agree 100% with your entire post.

Nkari
02-05-2007, 09:27
Zombies is where you park your necromancers, skeletons are where you park your fighty characters in. Simple as that. I ussaly run with 2-3 25 man skeleton unit and 1 20 man zombie unit.. it works quite well, but if your going to use alot of magic, andhave little fighty characters then you will be eaten by any units that has 2 attacks or more.

gukal
02-05-2007, 13:28
You can't decide which undead core troops to bring to a battle without some consideration of your metagame.

When I first started playing vampire counts, I brought an equal number of skeletons and zombies. Then I noticed that all the shooting I faced was S4, armor piercing and stronger. Also, I often faced lots of high strength combat attacks (grail knights, chosen chaos, etc). In these games, skeletons were only very marginally better than zombies (if at all).

Over time, based on these enemies, I shifted toward more and more zombies.

If you face lots of witch elves and frenzied plague monks, then you'll do better with an armor save and should favor skeletons.

greymeister
03-05-2007, 21:06
You can't decide which undead core troops to bring to a battle without some consideration of your metagame.


This is a very good point. Considering the armies that are common where I locally play, tons of strength 4 shooting is to be expected. I suppose this is an example of situational evaluation rather than something that can be generalized. Maybe zombies don't suck so much after all :angel: