PDA

View Full Version : Idea for Dark Eldar Light Cruiser



Zhai Morenn
13-04-2007, 09:10
Ok, well I will start this off by saying I'd like to see a Dark Eldar light cruiser, probably something modular like the rest of the DE fleet. I figure posting this is a good idea since the last time I wished upon a star for a fleetlist/ ship (demiurg fleetlist specifically), I found out Xisor had already made a Demiurg fleet list so I'm hoping for such luck again.

0-12
Sadist Class Light Cruiser-------------------------------145 pts
Type/Hits----Speed----Turns----Shields----Armor----Turrets
Cruiser/4----40---------90---- Shadowfield---5+------0

Armament--------Range/Speed-----Firepower/Str------Fire Arc
Prow Batteries------30cm-----------------8----------------F

In addition to it's integrated main batteries, you may choose to add one of the following weapons systems at the cost shown.

Prow Torpedos------30cm-----------------4----------------F-----15pts
Phantom Lance------30cm-----------------2----------------F------15pts
Impaler----------Attack Craft 30cm-----Special(1)-------- -- ----15pts
Launch Bays-------Fighters 30cm---------2--------------- -- ----20 pts
-------------------Bombers 20cm
--------------------Boats 30cm

Notes: A Sadist class which is of the Wych Cult of Strife present in a given raiding fleet represents Lelith Hesperax's interest in the Dark Archon of the fleet. Thus they are filled with battle-hardened Wyches and replace their main batteries with either a second impaler, or a second launch bay which is ONLY capable of launching assault boats, for no additional cost. This ship will also double it's value in boarding actions and may conduct teleport attacks even if on Reload Ordinance. Only one such ship may be present in each fleet, and it loses the option to equip torpedos or phantom lances. Paint it so it's color scheme is different from the rest of the fleet.

Additionally any Sadist class light cruiser may be equipped with mimic engines for an additional 30 points. Sadists do not need to be accompanied by escorts.

Just when Imperial experts believed there was an emerging pattern to Dark Eldar ship configuration, they encountered another anomaly. Reports began to filter in of Dark Eldar attacks featuring cruisers which seemed undergunned and smaller along with heavier escorts carrying near cruiser like firepower. After an attack against a listening post and colony in the Luminar system by four such craft, it was concluded that the gap between Torture and Corsair had been bridged by a light cruiser dubbed "Sadist" class. Two notable examples of this ship have been recorded. The first of which is the vessel named simply Venom which has been responsible for the single handed destruction of no less than 4 Imperial cruisers, among which were the three strong Dauntless squadron "Diligence" which was lured into an asteroid field, separated from their sister ships and then destroyed individually. The second vessel of this configuration seems to be beholden to a famed Wych Cult leader known as Lelith Hesperax. Named Daughter of Agony, the vessel featured no batteries or phantom lances what so ever but has accounted for the loss of several Imperial vessels along with a number of traitor ships due to it's lethal raiding parties and boarding actions.

So what do you all think? Any suggestions? Do you think it is balanced? (Once I have had a handful of folk look at it and give tweaking advice, I am prolly gonna make a pdf of it and submit it to SG)

ReDavide
13-04-2007, 09:46
So then, compared to a regular cruiser, it's giving up:
-2 hits
-4 battery firepower

and gaining:
-5 cm speed
-70 points cheaper


Too good a deal if you ask me*, mainly because the torp & lance variants have practically the same firepower as a regular cruiser.

I'd cut the lance down to strength 1 and the torps down to strength 2. The impaler can stay as-is since it appears to be overcosted on the mainstay cruiser. Adding an option that brings its batteries back up to firepower 12 could be an interesting addition too, if only to set the Sadist apart from the Torture so it's not just a Torture Lite.


*though I would be a terrible person to ask since I'm nothing but an armchair admiral when it comes to Dark Eldar.

Zhai Morenn
13-04-2007, 10:42
Yeah, that was something I was struggling with in regards to the high firepower but I was really aiming to make it an analogous ship to the Craftworld Wraithships, which bear similar firepower but b/c Dragon ships are just huge and more powerful than an average DE cruiser it may be a little too close to the Torture. I will continue to revise this and will post an updated version after more feedback, so keep it coming!

Admiral Koppenflak
13-04-2007, 16:13
This may come as an odd question, but I've not actually fought a Dark Eldar fleet before,.. (Eldar, plenty of times... but the Specialist Games scene where I am is a little dry in this regard)

So... What's the nominal speed of a Dark Eldar cruiser? Are you saying its 45cm?! Do they handle in the same manner as their 'good guy' cousins in that they get a second movement phase? Because that could be utterly brutal! :eek:

...Combined movement of 90cm in one turn!? Say it aint so...

Zhai Morenn
13-04-2007, 17:36
Dark Eldar movement works somewhat like normal movement:
-No minimum movement
-No minimum required movement before turning for cruisers
-May execute turns at any point in movement
-May only move once per turn
-May automatically pass Come to New Heading
Basically the Dark Eldar are a middle ground between the normal Eldar and regular fleets as far as movement is concerned. They're still blinding fast and manoeuverable, terrifyingly well armed, but are not as mobile as the corsair eldar, but are also not as frail in that the armor on their cruisers is 5 and they suffer crits on 6 like normal races.

EDIT: If you give them Mimic engines they can get a free movement before the start of turn one to represent them "sneaking up" on their targets.

check http://specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/assets/lrb/C_BFGOrks&Eldar.pdf for the details on Dark Eldar fleets.

On the topic of the Light Cruiser, without a weapons upgrade it has the same hits and firepower of a 15 point cheaper Solaris from the corsair list, but perhaps raise the cost of the cruiser by 5 and raise the cost of the extra weapons by 5 each. It would really help if there were a point value calculator for the standard DE fleet. Does 170 pts for an 8 batt, 2 phantom or 8 batt 2 lb DE ship sound too high or too low?

Zhai Morenn
15-04-2007, 09:14
Ok, here's the revised entry with the adjusted points cost. I think that in basing it upon the comparison to a Wraithship, 10-15 points more expensive for a similar loadout is fitting since the ship only takes criticals on a 6 instead of the wraith's 4+. I had tossed around the idea of tacking on 5 points to the weapon upgrades as well but decided against it. Also a list of potential alternative class names to Sadist:
Assassin class, Nightmare class, Flayer class, Interloper class, Death Dealer class. Opinions of the revision please!

0-12
Sadist Class Light Cruiser-------------------------------155 pts
Type/Hits----Speed----Turns----Shields----Armor----Turrets
Cruiser/4----40---------90---- Shadowfield---5+------0

Armament--------Range/Speed-----Firepower/Str------Fire Arc
Prow Batteries------30cm-----------------8----------------F

In addition to it's integrated main batteries, you may choose to add one of the following weapons systems at the cost shown.

Prow Torpedos------30cm-----------------4------------F-------15pts
Phantom Lance------30cm-----------------2------------F------15pts
Impaler----------Attack Craft 30cm-----Special(1)---- -- ----15pts
Launch Bays----Fighters 30cm------------2----------- -- ----20 pts
-------------------Bombers 20cm
--------------------Boats 30cm

Notes: A Sadist class which is of the Wych Cult of Strife present in a given raiding fleet represents Lelith Hesperax's interest in the Dark Archon of the fleet. Thus they are filled with battle-hardened Wyches and replace their main batteries with either an impaler, or a S2 launch bay which is ONLY capable of launching assault boats, for no additional cost. This ship will also double it's value in boarding actions and is only unable to conduct teleport attacks if crippled, is in a boarding action or on Brace For Impact! special orders. Only one such ship may be present in each fleet, and it loses the option to equip torpedos or phantom lances. You may not upgrade the launch bays which replace weapons batteries in any way, i.e. may not replace the ABs with mines. Paint it so it's color scheme is different from the rest of the fleet.

Any Sadist class light cruiser may be equipped with mimic engines for an additional 30 points. Sadists do not need to be accompanied by escorts.

Just when Imperial experts believed there was an emerging pattern to Dark Eldar ship configuration, they encountered another anomaly. Reports began to filter in of Dark Eldar attacks featuring cruisers which seemed undergunned and smaller along with reports of heavier escorts carrying near cruiser like firepower. After an attack against a listening post and colony in the Luminar system by four such craft, it was concluded that the gap between Torture and Corsair had been bridged by a light cruiser dubbed "Sadist" class. Two notable examples of this ship have been recorded. The first of which is the vessel simply named Venom which has been responsible for the single handed destruction of no less than 4 Imperial cruisers, among which were the three strong Dauntless squadron "Diligence" which was preyed upon through division of the formation and ambushes over the course of several days. The second vessel of this configuration seems to be beholden to a famed Wych Cult leader known as Lelith Hesperax. Named Daughter of Agony, the vessel featured no batteries, phantom lances or torpedos what so ever but has accounted for the loss of several Imperial vessels along with a number of traitor ships due to it's lethal raiding parties and boarding actions.

"...We are all that is left of Diligence squadron. Initially we feared for the loss of our sistership Hallowed Sight in that asteroid field where we chased the damned aliens. Two days later we picked her up on augers and rejoiced, thinking she had eluded destruction when in truth it was the aliens once more, imitating her augers readings. We had no warning and by the time we realized the deception, Diligence was burning from melta torpedos. We are making all speed for the nearest reinforcements, but I fear we shall not make it, even now we see the auger signature of the lost Diligence closing in upon us..." -Recovered log of Captain Isarius of the Steadfast of Diligence squadron.

Admiral Koppenflak
15-04-2007, 14:59
*does some math*

Speed 40 for the cruiser... and speed 30 for the boats...

:eek:

I pity the man who does not have combat air patrol when a squadron of these suckers are on the table. This just aint right!

horizon
16-04-2007, 04:49
Fairly standard, nothing wrong with it.

Standard Eldar (MSM) fly 30cm, launch 30 cm a-boats and then hide 30cm somewhere.
Talk about not-right.

Admiral Koppenflak
16-04-2007, 16:47
That is true. But I suppose the thing with Eldar for me is that I've had a good deal of practice in killing them. Dark Eldar are something of new ground for me.

Zhai Morenn
17-04-2007, 09:06
Hehe, well in many ways the Dark Eldar are a different beast to face than their goodly kin. Just wait till you get hit by a wave of DE Impalers for the first time. 4x A-boats which get to have the full critical hit table and bam!

ArtificerArmour
20-04-2007, 10:38
I posted my ideas on dark eldar light cruisers a while back, here's what I said:


Well, since the dark eldar lack a few types of ships (only having an escort and cruiser) I decided to throw my hat into the ring and "design" two light cruisers. This means they have a cruiser under 200 points and can sensibly take part in the cruiser clash scenario. Let me know what you think.

Dark Eldar SIN* class light cruiser - 130pts

TYPE/HITS: Cruiser/4
SPEED: 40cm
TURNS: 90
SHIELDS: Shadowfield
ARMOUR: 4+
Turrets: n/A

Armaments:
Keel Phantom lance, range 30 cm, strength 2, Front arc
Keel Torpedoes, speed 30cm, strength 4, Front arc

Dark Eldar REAVER class light cruiser - 150pts

TYPE/HITS: Cruiser/4
SPEED: 40cm
TURNS: 90
SHIELDS: Shadowfield
ARMOUR: 4+
Turrets: n/A

Armaments:
Keel weapons battery, strength 6, range 30cm, front arc.

In addition, the cruiser may pick ONE of the following armaments for no extra cost
Keel weapons battery, strength 2, range 30, front arc
Keel phantom lance, strength 2, range 30, front arc
Keel torpedoes, strength 2, speed 30, front arc
Keel impaler, strength 1, range 30, front arc

Obviously, all usual cruiser options apply including a mimic engine for 40 pts. I roughly based them on the Eldar light cruiser equivelants. I have no idea how to convert them though.

Anyway, C&C welcome.

*name is WIP

I intentionally:

a) kept it close to the eldar equivelants
b) kept the choice of armament a free choice at a fixed price cost
c) avoided launch bays

I avouded launch bays because, lets face it, the dark eldar would utterly dominate with a carrier just over a price of a dauntless. The free choices just kept it inline with the big brother. I also made two sperate ships, rather than one, so the dark eldar could have a lance and torp ship, which could fulfil a vital role whilst not being uber killy - also adds for a bit of variation. The reduced price costs is because they have armour 4+.

Zhai Morenn
20-04-2007, 17:44
Thats a nice loadout on the Reaver and Sin classes, but I think they too closely mimic the corsair versions. My main motivation was to just create a variable cruiser that was less than 200 pts and kept with the rest of DE ship design. To that end I made the batteries the one common component (excepting the 0-1 Wych Sadist). Also there has to be a benefit to taking such a ship over Escorts which is why my battery strength remained at 8 and armor raised to 5 because otherwise 2 escorts could match it in firepower and performance barring the extra difference of 2 hits. The Sin class is a good ship- it holds the firpower of around 3 ish escorts given relative point values of it's weaponry. (Then again I rarely use the Solaris unless I am trying to handicap myself for a friend's benefit- but hte Aurora appears regularly in my Corsair fleet)

The CE Wraithship design is the base idea I was modeling off of, since I tried making it analogous to the Solaris and Aurora in the initail phases of development, but ultimately it was disappointing in the face of a comparable points worth of escorts. Also bear in mind that when comparing between DE and Corsair, there is only 2 configurations of a ship which has identical armament to the corsair version (Torp Torture and Corsair Shadow along with the Aconite and Battery Corsair) thus we should think a little further outside of the box in order to create a DE lightcruiser since the DE's needs and design patterns are similar yet different from the other Eldar.

As for the overpowering light carrier arguement- I hardly consider a 175 pt ship with S2 Launch Bays to be overpowered- The CE Wraithship can field identical firepower for 15 pts less.

So perhaps the title of light cruiser is misleading, since typically light cruisers range in cost from 105 pts to 155 pts among most races but I still believe that the Wraithship occupies that strange middleground between full Eldar cruiser and Light cruiser but it does this well and while there are slight issues to balancing the Wraith's weapon loadout for variability, I still say replicating a similarly sized design with the DE is a good plan.

Ultimately, I think that we are both players of no small amount of genius and vision (DE players have to stick together... when we aren't quietly disposing of rivals that is ;) ). You are of the mind that a DE light cruiser should be lighter on cost, and closer to the equivelants fielded by the goodly kin and thus have produced two credible vessels to this end, where as I have produced a craft that is perhaps a little heavy to fit the nomenclature of light cruiser but at the same time represents a closer adheration to what I believe to be the basic values of DE capital ship design.

ArtificerArmour
22-04-2007, 16:52
Then perhaps we should fight it out. Or perhaps compromise. I'd be happy to increase the armour value of the ships to 5+ for about 10 points.

The special rules is something I avoid, because I'm crap at them. But there's no reason why we can't knock our heads together, come up with a compromise and submit it to specialist games.

Zhai Morenn
22-04-2007, 22:02
The special rules is something I avoid, because I'm crap at them. But there's no reason why we can't knock our heads together, come up with a compromise and submit it to specialist games.

Sounds good to me:)

To this end, perhaps a middle ground can be achieved by toning down the weapons loadout of my proposed Sadist. Considering that the Dark Eldar are perhaps the second most convertable fleet (second only to Nids) and that this diversity lacks a uniform weapons payload across the board, I don't think that mimicking identically the loadouts of the Aurora and Solaris would be appropriate. What are your thoughts on this?

ArtificerArmour
14-05-2007, 15:02
I've sent you a PM. I strongly believe we can make one chassis and include all the options we've discussed.