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Cragspyder
13-04-2007, 17:07
I assume that when a Tomb King or Prince is killed, his chariot (if any) is automatically removed regardless of the amount of wounds left on its profile. With other chariots, even if the character is killed, it still has a crew member left to drive the chariot, and since he shares the profile of the chariot itself, the chariot can survive until it itself is killed.

But since a Tomb King riding a chariot replaces all crew, it is simply removed when he dies, correct?

DeathlessDraich
13-04-2007, 18:14
Yes, regardless of whether he is in a unit of chariots or on his own.

Masque
13-04-2007, 19:09
DD, I can't seem to find anything to confirm your answer. Can you point me in the right direction?

ZomboCom
13-04-2007, 20:16
No, the chariot remains and acts entirely as normal. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that says that a crewless chariot will be removed.

It's a fantasy game, it doesnt have to make sense.

eldrak
13-04-2007, 20:33
Is an undead man smarter then an undead horse?

The chariot will roam free, DD is wrong here.

Cragspyder
13-04-2007, 20:57
Haha, that's hilarious! I'll have trouble trying to convince my opponents of that though :)

lparigi34
13-04-2007, 21:00
RAW permitted... LOL...

DeathlessDraich
14-04-2007, 11:49
DD, I can't seem to find anything to confirm your answer. Can you point me in the right direction?


No, the chariot remains and acts entirely as normal. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that says that a crewless chariot will be removed.

It's a fantasy game, it doesnt have to make sense.


Is an undead man smarter then an undead horse?

The chariot will roam free, DD is wrong here.

True the rules do not explicitly state that the chariot has to be removed but they do not state that it remains.

There are 4 reasons why I would decide against keeping the chariot:

The first two are minor reasons but the last two are based on the rules.

1) A crewless chariot cannot move in the same way as a crewed chariot. In fact it is more probable that it does not move at all.

2) The chariot is a mount and is probably closer to steeds and horses, which are removed when the rider is slain than to Monsters which takes a Monster reaction.

3) The Leadership of the chariot model is reduced to zero when the character dies - the statline of a chariot without crew has 0 Ld. By the rules the chariot is counted as slain - any characteristic reduced to zero slays the model.

4) If the character/TK in the chariot is a single unit, then it automatically fails its Break Test [when the character dies] with a 0 Ld and even if it flees successfully, it can never rally with a 0 Ld.

Masque
14-04-2007, 12:03
1) A crewless chariot cannot move in the same way as a crewed chariot. In fact it is more probable that it does not move at all.

I have no argument against this as it seems entirely fluff based.


2) The chariot is a mount and is probably closer to steeds and horses, which are removed when the rider is slain than to Monsters which takes a Monster reaction.

I'd say that Chariots are far more like Monsters than steeds. Their rules are far more similar.


3) The Leadership of the chariot model is reduced to zero when the character dies - the statline of a chariot without crew has 0 Ld. By the rules the chariot is counted as slain - any characteristic reduced to zero slays the model.

Only reducing S, T, or W to 0 slays the model.


4) If the character/TK in the chariot is a single unit, then it automatically fails its Break Test [when the character dies] with a 0 Ld and even if it flees successfully, it can never rally with a 0 Ld.

The Chariot in this case is Undead and thus doesn't take Break Tests.

Festus
14-04-2007, 12:05
Hi

DDraich -To your points:

1) A chariot has no provision for the death of any of its parts since 6th Ed. You either have a chariot, or you don't. You cannot kill off the animals nor the crew nor the structure separately. It works exactly like a monster in this regard. BRB p.62, left column.

2) A chariot is a mount, and as it has more than 1W in its profile, I can see hardly a reason for it to be treated differently to a monstrous mount. BRB ibid. Note that in the TK's case (which is the only one to replace ALL crew IIRC), a Reaction test is not really applicable, as TK are Undead and the chariot may be akin to a monster but it is none.

3) It is easy to substitute the remaining Ld value, which was not included because it doesn't have to generally (as you cannot generally kill parts of the chariot, see 1) ). It is the Ld of the animal: ie. Ld5 if I am not mistaken? - don't have the book here.

4) see 3) for a counter argument. BTW: The chariot may still suffer crumble Wounds from CR...

Festus

PS: Ah, you want to know if I'd let the chariot stick around? Well, yes, why not? :p

DeathlessDraich
14-04-2007, 17:34
Only reducing S, T, or W to 0 slays the model.


Oops sorry this is true but the Ld of a crewless chariot is still 0 in my opinion and is definitely 0 for TK see below*.



The Chariot in this case is Undead and thus doesn't take Break Tests.

That would be the logical assumption but the TK rulebook only mentions chariot units. It does not mention the characteristics of a chariot mount on its own. It is not known whether a crewless chariot which used to be a mount is Undead or not.


Hi

2) A chariot is a mount, and as it has more than 1W in its profile, I can see hardly a reason for it to be treated differently to a monstrous mount. BRB ibid. Note that in the TK's case (which is the only one to replace ALL crew IIRC), a Reaction test is not really applicable, as TK are Undead and the chariot may be akin to a monster but it is none.


Using the rules strictly would lead to the conclusion that the chariot is a monstrous mount but will cause further difficulties:
If a chariot is a monstrous mount it will have to take a Ld test and probably roll on the Monster reaction test.
I can't envisage a chariot enraged by the loss of its rider :D
In the case of TK, if it is assumed that the crewless chariot is Undead, how would that match up with an Unbreakable Monster reaction outcome?


Hi

3) It is easy to substitute the remaining Ld value, which was not included because it doesn't have to generally (as you cannot generally kill parts of the chariot, see 1) ). It is the Ld of the animal: ie. Ld5 if I am not mistaken? - don't have the book here.


I tend to compare this with a warmachine. The crew gives it Ld and once the crew is removed the machine itself has 0 Ld, no WS - automaticallt hit etc.
In the case of the chariot.
The Ld of a chariot with a crew is the crew's Ld and not the horses. If the crew are slain, there is no mechanism or suggestion in the rules to show that original Ld can be substituted in the way you suggested above.

*In the specific case of TK chariots, the skeletal steeds are listed as Ld 0 anyway.

Onisuzume
14-04-2007, 18:00
Lets say that if the TK dies, his chariot is removed, what would happen if his chariot is destroyed instead? Would the TK be removed then?

Noldo
14-04-2007, 18:17
Would this part of the Tomb King's FAQ give resolution to the question?


Q. Can you resurrect a Tomb King's Chariot if it has been destroyed but the Tomb King is still alive?
A. No. The Tomb King and his Chariot are treated separately. You also cannot resurrect the Tomb King if the Chariot is still alive!

That would very strongly indicate that Chariot and Tomb King can be killed separately and the other can continue its existance once other has been removed.

Masque
14-04-2007, 18:46
Nice catch there Noldo! Victory is ours!

DeathlessDraich
15-04-2007, 15:35
Still inconclusive and there's more to discuss.
The FAQ was for Djedra summoning. The phrase "chariot and Tomb King are treated separately" does not really help as it is already known they are treated separately during shooting and combat. The FAQ extends this 'separateness' to include D Summoning but does not address the question of whether the chariot continues to function after there is no crew.

These questions still remain:
1) Can a crewless chariot remain on the battlefield?
2) If it is allowed to remain can it move, charge etc or should it be treated in the same way as an abandoned warmachine.
3) Is the chariot a monstrous mount and if so how would you reconcile this with a Monster reaction test?
4) Is the crewless TK chariot Undead and if so what rule supports this view?

As a TK player, I've encountered this just once and readily removed my Chariot of fire when the King was slain.

vilo
15-04-2007, 17:21
as the summoning spell has to be used in the magic phase and by that stage the tomb king/ prince would have already been killed how is the chariot still around for the spell to be cast on it, and an faq needed to clarify specifically that it couldn't be done

Festus
15-04-2007, 17:40
as the summoning spell has to be used in the magic phase and by that stage the tomb king/ prince would have already been killed how is the chariot still around for the spell to be cast on it, and an faq needed to clarify specifically that it couldn't be done
QFT: If something is still there in the situation discussed (according to a FAQ), how can it have disappeared previously?

Your turn, DDraich ;)

Festus

Stouty
15-04-2007, 18:27
@DDraich

Crew don't exist anymore. It's as simple as that. In terms of game mechanics crew members are just extra attacks that the chariot has. It is like a monster with no reaction chart.

The king replacing the crew is just removing the attacks, in terms of mechanics the crew just added attacks and Ld, they didn't even have wounds or toughness. Now that the crew are gone you use the highest Ld value on the base, and that's the horses.

Seems a bit silly, and if you want that to be your arguement so be it, I won't tell you how to play your game but you're not playing as the BRB says. Now you can say you're playing house rules and all power to you in that respect but on the rules forum it is assumed that people want to know what RAW says, they don't need to be told the morality of it.

If you can tell me the role of the crew members according the the BRB I will be happy.

Or how about this: What if there was a chariot manned by 1 crew member who needed to use both his hands to drive the chariot (and so had no attacks) and had a lower leadership value than the horses. Would he have any effect on the game?

Cragspyder
16-04-2007, 04:17
I think the problem DD is having is that chariot horses don't have the same profile as Skeletal Steeds (like the one Liche Priests ride, etc). They have a similar profile, except with their BS, T, W and Ld blanked out, as they are not needed.

Therefore, without a crew or character on the chariot, the chariot technically has a leadership of - , or nothing, as neither the horses nor the chariot body have a leadership value.

However, since the Chariot body still has a S, T and W value, the chariot is not technically dead, as Festus noted.

I've had my Tomb Prince killed once from on top of his chariot, and I've just removed the chariot along with him, because it just seems a bit silly to have a chariot with no crew.

However, this makes the TK chariot one of the worst character mounts in the game, really, as you pay 45 points for, effectively, a Skeletal Steed with d3 Strength 4 impact hits, an extra attack, and 2 more US.

Actually, maybe that's not a bad deal...

Kordos
16-04-2007, 07:16
By the rule book if a mount has more than 2 wounds then it is classed as a monster mount (page 59 of the little rule book not sure if the page numbers are the same as the big one)
Therefore if the TK character is killed the chariot is not removed - but as the chariot is classed as a monster mount (it has more than 2 wounds) it now has to take a test on the monster reaction table

Marcel
16-04-2007, 07:49
when is a chariot going to last longer than a touhgness 5 mummy?

GodHead
16-04-2007, 09:18
Good god, what is wrong with you people?

You also cannot resurrect the Tomb King if the Chariot is still alive!

if the Chariot is still alive!

the Chariot is still alive!

Do you understand what those words mean?

DeathlessDraich
16-04-2007, 10:46
QFT: If something is still there in the situation discussed (according to a FAQ), how can it have disappeared previously?

Your turn, DDraich ;)

Festus

Yes, the FAQ does state that the chariot is 'alive' after the King is slain.
A few problems:
1) 'Alive' is a poor word choice - although god[head] doesn't think so:p .
2) What exactly does 'alive' mean? It has wounds but so does an abandoned warmachine.
3) What characteristics can it have? - impact hits?
4) Can a horse/skeletal steed declare charges? - this would be unprecedented!

There is no guidance from the rules but the average Fantasy player would feel it is intuitively wrong to allow any further participation from the crewless chariot.

I agree the crewless chariot doesn't disappear but maybe [this is not from the rules] it would best treated as an abandoned warmachine.



Good god, what is wrong with you people?

[if the chariot is still alive]
Do you understand what those words mean?

No, enlighten us oh God:p

Still alive = implies alive previously i.e. not and never been Undead?

No? Let me try again.

"You cannot resurrect the TK if the chariot is still alive" - Therefore you can resurrect the TK if the chariot is dead? :p

Seriously, I still maintain that the FAQ does not solve this issue with sufficient certainty.

Marcel: In sunny London we would call that a random statement.

EvC
16-04-2007, 11:12
I don't see any reason to remove the Chariot because the rider is dead. It may be intuitively wrong to allow the Chariot to continue, but it's also intuitively wrong for a Chariot to be made of bone, pulled by the skeletons of horses and manned by the skeletons of men, who sometimes bring a horn to battle to blow into despite having no lungs. Perhaps... god forbid, our intuition does not apply to such crazy situations? ;)

Since I can't remember, do you have to take a leadership test for the monster chart or is it straight roll-off? That'd be a fun rules discussion...

Atrahasis
16-04-2007, 11:22
There is no monster reaction test, as the mount is a chariot, which is a separate unit type from monsters (as defined on page 7).

Kordos
16-04-2007, 11:33
There is no monster reaction test, as the mount is a chariot, which is a separate unit type from monsters (as defined on page 7).

except that on page 59 its says "If a mount has 2 or more wounds it is classed as a monstrous mount"

And on page 64 its says "characters can ride chariots in much the same way they ride large monsters"

and as the Kings chariot is a mount .......

As to if GW intended it this way or not I don't know

Atrahasis
16-04-2007, 11:48
except that on page 59 its says "If a mount has 2 or more wounds it is classed as a monstrous mount"

And on page 64 its says "characters can ride chariots in much the same way they ride large monsters"

and as the Kings chariot is a mount .......

As to if GW intended it this way or not I don't know

Chariots have their own special rules when being ridden by characters, and they are found in the chariots section, not the monsters section.

Stouty
16-04-2007, 13:25
Yes, the FAQ does state that the chariot is 'alive' after the King is slain.
A few problems:
1) 'Alive' is a poor word choice - although god[head] doesn't think so:p .
2) What exactly does 'alive' mean? It has wounds but so does an abandoned warmachine.
3) What characteristics can it have? - impact hits?
4) Can a horse/skeletal steed declare charges? - this would be unprecedented!

1)Yes alive is a sucky choice of words
2)Yes an abandoned war machine has wounds, but it lacks a movement value, a Ld value, WS, BS and I think a strength value. Also the rules specifically deal with abandoned war machines
3)It has the charactaristics it says it has. It is still a functioning chariot, it just lacks 2 attacks.
4)Yes, why wouldn't they be able to declare charges? They have all the required stats to.

I will repeat now:


Crew don't exist anymore. It's as simple as that. In terms of game mechanics crew members are just extra attacks that the chariot has. It is like a monster with no reaction chart.

The king replacing the crew is just removing the attacks, in terms of mechanics the crew just added attacks and Ld, they didn't even have wounds or toughness. Now that the crew are gone you use the highest Ld value on the base, and that's the horses.

If you can tell me the role of the crew members according the the BRB I will be happy.

Or how about this: What if there was a chariot manned by 1 crew member who needed to use both his hands to drive the chariot (and so had no attacks) and had a lower leadership value than the horses. Would he have any effect on the game?

lparigi34
16-04-2007, 14:05
4) Can a horse/skeletal steed declare charges? - this would be unprecedented!


Why? Is the average fantasy horse less intelligent than a prehistoric nut sized brain Stegadon?

I found this discussion very funny, since I can almost bet 1/2 year of my salary (which wil make nobody any richer :p) that this was not the intention of the rules, and despite myself having already agreed with the possibility of playing a chariot like this I'd never try to pull this off in my club, they'll ban me for sure, and this is not easy since we play at my home :eek:.

Has anybody ever tried this in a tournament?

But RAW permitted... It is a mount with more than 2 wounds => treat it as a monster... odd... or maybe just us trying to exploit every loophole...

And in defense of the guys that write the rules, this may be classed as rules lawyering as per the WD315, page 3, "Rules Lawyering".

lparigi34
16-04-2007, 15:08
And nastier if the chariot is not the undead, but the War Altar... omg...

DeathlessDraich
16-04-2007, 20:00
If you can tell me the role of the crew members according the the BRB I will be happy.
Or how about this: What if there was a chariot manned by 1 crew member who needed to use both his hands to drive the chariot (and so had no attacks) and had a lower leadership value than the horses. Would he have any effect on the game?

Weren't you a bunny in a previous life?:D
Answers:
Q2: Which chariot has only 1 crew? Those I can think of have at leat 2 or more and remain so even if wounds are inflicted - see Q1's answer below

Q1: You've [unintentionally?] highlighted another aspect of the problem. The rulebook does not explain the role of the crew or the steeds or even the chariot. The chariot model has characteristics presented for convenience and gameplay.

The *wound* column is presented for the chariot as a whole i.e. it is not anticipated that any of the parts of the chariot can actually be slain separately.

Either the whole chariot is destroyed or the whole chariot suffers partial wounds but it always maintains its 3 components - Chariot, Crew and Steeds. This is not explicitly stated in the rules but it is how Warhammer players interpret a statline or characteristics chart [correctly].

Here are 2 very important points:

1) Each component, chariot itself, crew and steeds is alive until the whole chariot model is slain. A chariot model's component can never be slain separately.

2) And here is the Source of the problem:
In the case of the Tomb King, a component of the chariot model (crew) has been slain which violates the correct use of a chariots statline or characteristic table.

Replacing the crew instead of joining it, like characters and chariots in other armies has created a problem.

DeathlessDraich
16-04-2007, 20:08
Iparigi: Good pt, the War Altar is a chariot ridden only by an Arch Lector but its steeds are given Ld.

Sherlocko
16-04-2007, 20:12
Why do you give the crew ingame roles wich the rulebook have no mention of?

ZomboCom
16-04-2007, 23:41
Iparigi: Good pt, the War Altar is a chariot ridden only by an Arch Lector but its steeds are given Ld.

What does that have to do with anything? Where in any rules does it state that if the ld of a model is 0 it is removed?

Answer: Nowhere.

There are no rules whatsoever that suggest that the chariot is removed, and an FAQ that makes it pretty clear that it remains on the table.

Stouty
17-04-2007, 00:33
Weren't you a bunny in a previous life?:D

But you see I was such a bad bunny I was demoted to a manga character. In this life I must learn the importance of having eyes that take up less than a third of your face.


Warning: This user has typed way too much

Q2: Which chariot has only 1 crew? Those I can think of have at leat 2 or more and remain so even if wounds are inflicted - see Q1's answer below

It was a hypothetical Q, I was asking what you think would happen according to RAW if the crewmen had a lower LD than the horses and no attacks. Would they have any effect on the game whatsoever?


Q1: You've [unintentionally?] highlighted another aspect of the problem. The rulebook does not explain the role of the crew or the steeds or even the chariot. The chariot model has characteristics presented for convenience and gameplay.

Without sounding like an ******** (and I know on the RAW debates there's always a risk of crossing this line) I'd like to say that you have highlighted the flaw in your own arguement.

You have willed into existence this concept of a chariot crew when the rules really doesn't share that concept, they only have a chariot model.

I think we've found the same problem in the rules and come to a different conclusion on how to solve it. Now that I've typed that it sounds stupid but the real problem we're dealing with is the composition of a chariot.

I find that the crew are missing but as the model still has wounds, and strength I reason that it must still exist and that the crewmembers who were no more distinguished in the rules than the horses.

You find that the crew are missing and because the crew were given a seperate line in the stat sheet and because it is logical to assume that the car needs a driver you create a whole extra layer of the rules to deal with the loss of crewmembers, something that the rulebook never bothers itself with it.

Since it continues to maintain all the needed stats for existence then I can only come to the conclusion that it must exist.

The only time the rules state that model with 0 wounds must be removed is on page 5 of the BRB (actually I lie, there's a section in both shooting and combat that state this but they only say when a model is successfully wounded and fails all saves then it takes a wound)


If at any time a model's strength, toughness or wounds are reduced to 0 or less *snip* it is slain and removed from play

On other characteristics of the value 0 which are-
(sometimes shown as a dash: '-')

-the book says this:

That a model with a 0 stat has no skill in that field whatsoever (personally I think resurected horses are very charismatic but I don't think that's very relevant right now). Then it gives 3 examples.

1)BS-The model is unable to use a ranged weapon and hit anything
2)Attacks-The model is unable to attack
3)WS-It is hit automatically.

So we can assume that if this chariot was called upon to make a Leadership based test that it would fail either by an infinite margin or by points equal to the roll of the dice.

1 interpretation assumes that a stat of 0 leads to immediate failure taken to the extremes (you are hit automatically, you don't even get to roll to hit etc)
1 interpretation assumes that you actually try to use the statistic of 0.

I believe the former to be both more accurate and more fair but I haven't thought it through quite well enough to come to my best formed oppinion on which of the 2 it is.

KEY POINT: One can exist with M,WS,BS,I and Ld 0; you just fail if ever you are required to take a test on these stats.

[At this point I felt like I needed a break. I wouldn't be offended if the reader got up and had a cup of tea now at all. I did:D ]

And now I move onto chariots.


A chariot, including its crew and the creatures pulling it, are considered to be a single model-

This is where the problem starts. Are these crew members necessary.


[A chariot] Is in effect a unit of one model

So if you remove the crew you are just removing some statistics and attacks from this single model but as S,T and W are kept intact you cannot remove the model from play.

I might hurt my case with this but after all this it made me laugh

"...some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used:angel: "

LOL.

I'll finish with another question:

If you could kill the steeds without harming the crew or chariot what would you do? Would you remove it from play or would you treat it as an immobile piece of junk, but a model on the battlefield never the less? If the you chose option 2 then what makes missing crewmembers and missing steeds any different?

I'm genuinely interested in your response.

Kordos
17-04-2007, 02:21
I'll finish with another question:

If you could kill the steeds without harming the crew or chariot what would you do? Would you remove it from play or would you treat it as an immobile piece of junk, but a model on the battlefield never the less? If the you chose option 2 then what makes missing crewmembers and missing steeds any different?

I'm genuinely interested in your response.

But you can't, you can however kill the chariot and not the King or kill the king and not the chariot (as the mount and character can be targeted independently in CC and shooting is randomized between the two ) unfortunately the rules quite clearly say what happens if the chariot is destroyed but not say what happens to the chariot if the king is slain - it does however say that characters in chariots work in a similar manor to characters riding monsters which brings up the
"If a mount has 2 or more wounds it is classed as a monstrous mount and the following rules are used" page 59

After reading and re reading the rules I cant help but think GW left a sentence off the end of the characters in chariots rule section

Jonke
17-04-2007, 05:53
A chariot is a chariot. Not a monster. They have a few similar rules and some wich are exactly the same but still they each have their own separate rules.

][Mordread
17-04-2007, 06:33
The chariot is undead it say so on page 20 of the tomb king book. It is the very first rule in the book.

Onisuzume
17-04-2007, 09:32
That would very strongly indicate that Chariot and Tomb King can be killed separately and the other can continue its existance once other has been removed.
This makes my JSoD very sad.

The chariot is undead it say so on page 20 of the tomb king book. It is the very first rule in the book.
Can something that is undead be considdered to be "alive" in the first place?
If not, then "You also cannot resurrect the Tomb King if the Chariot is still alive!" is meaningless.

Still, I'd allow the chariot to move around and assault. (why would (undead) horses want to assault in the first place?)

DeathlessDraich
17-04-2007, 09:55
[Mordread;1477637']The chariot is undead it say so on page 20 of the tomb king book. It is the very first rule in the book.

Yes, maybe.
"All models listed in the army list are Undead"
Chariot units are listed and these have crew. The question is do *crewless chariots* (which is an abomination not in the army list) have the same Undead ability.


A chariot is a chariot. Not a monster. They have a few similar rules and some wich are exactly the same but still they each have their own separate rules.

True a chariot is not a *monster* but it qualifies as a *monstrous mount* unfortunately according to the rules - pg 59. Like you, I am uncomfortable with this because of the difficulties from a monster reaction test.



After reading and re reading the rules I cant help but think GW left a sentence off the end of the characters in chariots rule section

Probably happened. Until then we might have to resort to a 'player interpretation'. How would you play it in a game?



It was a hypothetical Q, I was asking what you think would happen according to RAW if the crewmen had a lower LD than the horses and no attacks. Would they have any effect on the game whatsoever?
.

If the characteristic table for chariots is written in this way - 2 Ld instead of the normal one, the rider's Ld would have to be used in accordance with monstrous mount which are similar to cavalry in this respect.



You have willed into existence this concept of a chariot crew when the rules really doesn't share that concept, they only have a chariot model.


I don't think I have. You seem to acquiesce the same conceptual interpretation of the chariot model below




I think we've found the same problem in the rules and come to a different conclusion on how to solve it.
I find that the crew are missing but as the model still has wounds, and strength I reason that it must still exist and that the crewmembers who were no more distinguished in the rules than the horses.

You find that the crew are missing and because the crew were given a seperate line in the stat sheet and because it is logical to assume that the car needs a driver you create a whole extra layer of the rules to deal with the loss of crewmembers, something that the rulebook never bothers itself with it.



I've used the term 'component of the chariot model'. The chariot model has various components, all of which functions separately in combat. This is evident from the characteristics table of a chariot.
The *steeds component* is the only one that is given a Movement value and is the only component that is used to resolve movement on behalf of the chariot model. In the same way the *crew component* has Ld and this is used on behalf of the chariot model etc etc.
In no other circumstances, other than a TK [and now probably War Altar] can a component of a chariot model be removed.
I've raised the question of : The rules do not anticipate the removal of a chariot component what should be done if this happens?

The existence of the chariot. I've already conceded that it can exist.
It's the nature of the crewless chariot's abilities that I question. Can it function in *exactly* the same way?

I am not adding anything to the rules at all but the rules gives no guidance. Chariot rules are for chariot models which *always* have the 3 components.

This scenario calls for a 'player interpretation' and my suggestion is that the crewless chariot should be treated like an abandoned warmachine



So we can assume that if this chariot was called upon to make a Leadership based test that it would fail either by an infinite margin or by points equal to the roll of the dice.


A ld test where value is not needed will auto fail. A Ld test where value is need e.g. Undead crumbling, will fail by the modifier value i.e. amount of CR pts lost.




If you could kill the steeds without harming the crew or chariot what would you do? Would you remove it from play or would you treat it as an immobile piece of junk, but a model on the battlefield never the less? If the you chose option 2 then what makes missing crewmembers and missing steeds any different?

I'm genuinely interested in your response.

God forbid that these hypothetical scenarios should transpire because they should not occur. The chariot rules forbids this

Atrahasis
17-04-2007, 11:17
Yes, maybe.
"All models listed in the army list are Undead"
Chariot units are listed and these have crew. The question is do *crewless chariots* (which is an abomination not in the army list) have the same Undead ability.Character chariots are models listed in the army list. If they weren't listed in the army list, you wouldn't be able to take them.




True a chariot is not a *monster* but it qualifies as a *monstrous mount* unfortunately according to the rules - pg 59. Like you, I am uncomfortable with this because of the difficulties from a monster reaction test.No. The rules for Monsters apply only to Monsters. The rules for monstrous mounts are a subsection of the rules for monsters.


The existence of the chariot. I've already conceded that it can exist.
It's the nature of the crewless chariot's abilities that I question. Can it function in *exactly* the same way? What makes you think it can't? Nothing in the rules suggests that intelligence is required for a model to move, declare charges etc other than Stupidity which is a rule the chariot doesn't have.


I am not adding anything to the rules at all but the rules gives no guidance. Chariot rules are for chariot models which *always* have the 3 components.Obviously they do not always have 3 components or this debate would not have come up. Just because TK chariots are a unique case does not make them impossible - it simply makes them unique.


This scenario calls for a 'player interpretation' and my suggestion is that the crewless chariot should be treated like an abandoned warmachineWhich is completely unnecessary. The rules cover the chariot without any need for speculation or embellishment by players. Lose the preconception that a horse needs a rider/driver and all the problems you're having go away. The chariot is just a model like any other.

lparigi34
17-04-2007, 12:17
I still will have a hard time pulling this off in my group ;) , but I found even more support to this in the TK book itself.

Casket of Souls: as well as the character chariot it is an option, not a listed Item, and they had to specify that it has to be removed from the game if the crew (the priest) is there no more at the end of the turn (either because he abandonded the machine or he was slain). This especification is not there for the chariot.

In fact, why in the world would be a Priest allowed to abandon his "warmachine" and the Character not allowed to abandon his chariot? But the rules for the chariot does not say it is destroyed if abandoned, whatever the reason is, and if still in the game, horses atached and wounds remaining, why can't it move and charge?

I insist in asking if is this any different for the Empire War Altar?

BTW. Fun discussion, and I believe that this was probably not the intention of the rules, but who the hell knows what the intention was anyway...

Off topic... I had an hectoplasmic visitor last night, no sleeping at all. Creepy! :skull:

Stouty
17-04-2007, 13:42
@DDraich (sorry if this sounds like I'm having a go at you)

Let's see how far we can get with RAW facts that everyone can agree on

-The chariot still has all the needed statistics to exist
-The rules never refer to needing a crew for the operation of the chariot. Certainly not in the same way they do for warmachines

DD do you want to go on with the list?

Cragspyder
17-04-2007, 16:46
Let's write up GW and see if they'll add it to the errata :)

knightime98
20-07-2007, 08:52
One question leads to more questions... Does it ever end?
No, it does not.

I will ask an oddball question that everyone knows the answer too, then I will add my food for thought about the subject. Here is the simple question;

If I have an Empire Army with a "General of the Empire" that has mounted barded horse and a Rune fang and the "General of the Empire" dies what happens to his mount???? It is a composite model is it not? What happens to his Rune fang... The answer unobtrusively is that the model (including the mount) and magic items are both GONE! Period... The horsey is not standing by to charge the enemy!.... It is grazing on the grass and gets spoked off the field.

Now, food for thought....
Let's say that I have TK army (I don't). In that army I have a character that is a TK. That Tomb King in his build is allowed to "upgrade" to a chariot. So, the Tomb King has an "upgrade" to HIS profile like a magic item. So, if the Tomb King dies... Guess what, so does his upgrade... So it seems to me.

Atrahasis
20-07-2007, 10:58
Now, food for thought....
Let's say that I have TK army (I don't). In that army I have a character that is a TK. That Tomb King in his build is allowed to "upgrade" to a chariot. So, the Tomb King has an "upgrade" to HIS profile like a magic item. So, if the Tomb King dies... Guess what, so does his upgrade... So it seems to me.

No. Cavalry mounts are completely different to any other type of mount, as are magic items and other arms and armour. Cavalry mounts are specifically stated to be removed when the rider dies. Arms & armour (including magic items) are properties of the character model, and so are removed when he dies.

The Chariot is neither a cavalry mount nor armour, arms, or a magic item. The rules do not require it to be removed when the rider dies.

N1AK
20-07-2007, 15:00
The Chariot should be able to continue without the character. No rule says a chariot couldn't continue, this isn't simply abusing a loophole.

Obviously what was intended and what makes sense can be argued either way, but that doesn't provide the answer.

Grunge
20-07-2007, 19:39
The chariot is not an upgrade. Its a mount. The book specifically says he can "ride" in a chariot, exactly how an Empire general can "ride" a Griffon.

This thread should have been over at post #13.