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Severian
17-04-2007, 11:22
Now if this has been posted to death I apologize in advance. I did a quick search and could not find what I need, however if you can help out read on...;)

From time to time I like to read a little fluff but most of the Black Library's writers are unknown to me and so I have no reference as to quality and accuracy. I know Abnett can write, I loved the Eisenhorn trilogy,(ok so Abnett is their poster child) but what about the following:
* CS Goto - dawn of war / warrior coven
* Scanlon, Mitchel - Fifteen Hours
* Ben counter - The souldrinker series
* James Swallow - the blood angels series

Question:confused:
Anybody read any of these? Any recommendations and/ or commentary ? I'm not one of the people who insist on it being exactly as in the game ie. a space marine would never wound a carnifex with a bolter because of toughness etc. It is fiction plain and simple. We don't even try to pass it of as great literature, it is simply there for enjoyment,relaxing and enhancing the whole SF 40K experience. :cool:

Your thoughts and advise please as well as any other titles you enjoyed.

Gen.Steiner
17-04-2007, 12:02
It is a truth universally acknowledged that CS Goto is worse than a kick in the knackers, or being forced to read Jane Austen.

Fifteen Hours is good, gritty, pulp war-SF. Worth a read, definitely. Not read any of the novels by Counter or Swallow, but their short stories are pretty decent.

Personally, I recommend getting the books out of the library rather than buying them, unless you really like that author or the book itself. :)

Other books I've enjoyed are: Anything by Abnett, particularly the Gaunt's Ghosts series and the Inquisition stuff. The compliations of short stories are fantastic value for money I reckon, and the Ciaphas Cain stuff by Sandy Mitchell is also good (although a rip-off of Flashman).

narrativium
17-04-2007, 12:58
It is a truth universally acknowledged that CS Goto is worse than a kick in the knackers, or being forced to read Jane Austen. It's neither universally acknowledged nor truth, but a lot of loud people don't like some of his work. That in itself I don't mind, it's when they make up silly comparisons rather than giving reasons that I object to (for example, I'd now like to test Gen.Steiner's theory by kicking him in the knackers). I haven't read the novels in question, but what I have read of CS Goto's work, I enjoyed, and he is in my opinion at least on par with other Black Library writers. (I don't like all BL writers' work; personally I find Barrington Bayley's work horrendous to read.)

I haven't read the Counter or Swallow series mentioned, either - I read Galaxy in Flames a while ago, I've started Flight of the Eisenstein, so far I think I prefer Swallow's writing - but because of the time difference between readings, I couldn't compare the two in a way someone else could find meaningful.

Fifteen Hours is good. If you like Abnett's portrayal of the 40K universe off the battlefield (as in Eisenhorn, look for Matt Farrer's Calpurnia novels (starting with Crossfire; if you like the on-battlefield stuff like the Ghosts, you might appreciate Sandy Mitchell's Ciaphas Cain novels. You might also consider the anthologies such as Let the Galaxy Burn, because they include a bit of everything and give you a taster of many different authors' styles.

Gen.Steiner
17-04-2007, 17:29
Ah, my dear narrativium, I've been on the receiving end of a kick in the knackers a few times before. I would rather take another than have to read anything by Goto. His work offends my sensibilities, and it's a rare author whose works I can't finish. He joins the likes of American Psycho, Dickens, Austen, and others in my pantheon of Really Rubbish Writers.

swordwind
17-04-2007, 18:44
Surfing, flying, Kung-foo Terminators and Eldar are raped, molested and abused every other chapter.

Eulenspiegel
17-04-2007, 18:59
C.S. Goto may be a good writer to some. That is subjective and entirely regarding the tastes of the reader ..

but in 40K, where people may know certain stuff about the background themselvels, C.S. has no place. He doesnīt bother to get into the fluff to make his stories "canon".

15 hours I can recommend a lot! Itīs not much for 40k-Background after the first chapter or so, but I liked it a lot.

From Swallow I only know the cursed Blood Angels books, and I hate them passionately. Not for his writing, but the way he portrayed the chapter.

Abnett is the best writer, no contest. I have yet to check out the Gaunts Ghosts series Steiner proposed, but now as I know who wrote them I will.

Glyndwr
17-04-2007, 19:00
The first soul driker novel is pretty good. Not what you'd expect tho. I would recomend it to anyone with an interet in adeptus mechanicus. It has a few twists that made me sit up and say no way.......

All the space wolv novels are pretty good. The herasy ones also. Its true about C.S. Goto. But his books must sell cause they are still making them.

G.

swordwind
17-04-2007, 19:13
The only reason his books sell is because most of them have a massive Dawn of War logo stuck on the cover.

mjc1000
17-04-2007, 19:17
finished reading nightbringer i recomend that :D

Bregalad
17-04-2007, 19:21
It's neither universally acknowledged nor truth, but a lot of loud people don't like some of his work. That in itself I don't mind, it's when they make up silly comparisons rather than giving reasons that I object to (for example, I'd now like to test Gen.Steiner's theory by kicking him in the knackers). I haven't read the novels in question, but what I have read of CS Goto's work, I enjoyed, and he is in my opinion at least on par with other Black Library writers. (I don't like all BL writers' work; personally I find Barrington Bayley's work horrendous to read.)

If you like to judge without informing yourself and to kick other people in the knackers, you might be the target group for C.S.Goto's novels. He also gives a damn about informing himself about the topic of his novels and enjoys humiliating (including long torture scenes and hinted at child molestation) all Eldar characters. Definitely not for Eldar fans or people familiar with the 40k background.

Norminator
17-04-2007, 19:21
I think that Goto is a good writer - the bit of DoW Ascension I've read seemed to be very well written - but his raping of the fluff as well as poor plots apparently let that down.

OrlyggJafnakol
17-04-2007, 19:24
I have read a large number of 40k black library books... As is, almost, universally known, Dan Abnett is the king of 40k. If you have read Eisenhorn you must read Gaunts Ghosts, pick up the new omnibus for under a tenner. Stick with them, for they took me a while to get into, but the characters are brilliant and you get very attached to them.

Old Goto I have never read anything from, largely from what others say but I have no opinion on his works.

James Swallow's Horus Heresy book was excellent IMO. Brought back memories of old chaos (back in the 80s when it was sickeningly well protrayed). I have heard many negative things about the Blood Angels books but do intend to read them at some point. I prefer to make up my own mind.

Another favourite of mine is Gav Thorpe's Last Chancers. A great read. Again I bought the omnibus and completed the whole thing in a week. Found myself waking up at 5am to read some more before work!

Horus Heresy books are all worth reading.

The ravenor books are in a similar vein to Eisenhorn and are very enjoyable.

If you want a slightly different interpretation of the 40k world read the Inquisition War by Ian Watson. I wish that the Black Library would get him to write more 40k stuff.

Hope that helps

narrativium
17-04-2007, 20:22
If Goto's books are unreadable... would anyone care to sell their copies to me? I have Dawn of War: Tempest (unread, since I don't have the first two), Salvation (which I think is one of the better Necromunda novels) and Eldar: Prophecy... so I'm looking for Dawn of War, Ascension, Warrior Coven and Warrior Brood, I think. If it's preferred, I'll make a thread on the Trading/Wanted forums for them.

Minister
17-04-2007, 20:52
Execution Hour.

There are other novels of merit, the Cain novels are spectacularly good and have a surprising amount of background information and I rather liked the Calpurna novels, but Execution Hour should be a first choice.

Son of Makuta
17-04-2007, 21:17
I've read Ravenor. Class.
Ben Counter's pretty good too. (Assuming he IS the one who wrote those Grey Knights novels?)

Kegluneq
17-04-2007, 21:23
Rogue Star is possibly the best book for people wanting to justify the position of the Tau as a core army, and is a well written book in its own right, if a bit short.

All the books listed so far are good, especially 15 Hours. Opinions are divided, but I enjoyed Storm of Iron as well.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-04-2007, 21:25
After reading Faith and Fire by James Swallow, I am not tempted to buy any of his other stuff. The writing was fairly poor, and his grasp of the 40k universe seems to be lacking.

Firebreath
17-04-2007, 21:34
40K Literature, hur hur hur. ;)

Gordon Rennie - Execution Hour.

Dan Abnett - the Eisenhorn-trilogy, the Ravenor-books (probably will be a trilogy as well) and the Gaunt's Ghosts-books.

Graham McNeill ain't half bad either.

After that the decline sets in, but I found Ben Counter's offerings acceptable enough.

Getz
17-04-2007, 23:19
15 Hours is okay, and I kinda enjoyed Ghostmaker, but even that's only really on a par with low rent WWII war-porn like Sven Hassel or Leo Kessler.

Birdsong it ain't...

TwistedDarkness
17-04-2007, 23:33
Anything Dan Abnett writes is golden.
Graham Mcneil's Ultramarines series is fantastic. See if you can get it.
Ben Counter's Grey Knights books don't get some of the fluff right but are good reads.
The Horus Heresy series is solid gold. It humanizes the characters thought godlike.
Lastly, the Codexes are great sources of fluff and such. Pick some of them up.

Gen.Steiner
17-04-2007, 23:36
Hey, don't knock Sven HaSSel's dakka-fests, they're not as disturbing as American Psycho. ;)

Gammarah
17-04-2007, 23:52
I recommend James Swallows Blood Angels books, he's a very good writer. Can't really say the same for his SoB book though.

Getz
18-04-2007, 00:05
Hey, don't knock Sven HaSSel's dakka-fests, they're not as disturbing as American Psycho. ;)

Oh, I quite enjoy reading pulp war novels (you may have noticed I had picked up a Douglas Reeman novel in the bookshop before meeting at the station the other month) but there's no point mistaking them for quality literature, and I have yet to read a 40K novel that is even as well written as that...

I'm assuming it's because the pulp war novel market is actually pretty competitive, whereas the Black Library strikes me as a bit of a haven of productive incompetants (C S Goto, for example). Take Dan Abnett, while I have enjoyed all the books I have read by him, and he is easily the best author in the BL stable that I have read, he isn't any better than Douglas Reeman, who has banged out at least 30 books under his own name and as many again under the pseudonym of Alexander Kent, all of which (and I've read a good number of his books) are of a generally high standard - even if they're all about boats... :p

Gen.Steiner
18-04-2007, 00:13
Oh, indeed, I totally agree. :) Black Library stuff is pulp SF/Fantasy war fiction, a bit like Commando! War Picture Action with words and on Gothic Steroids.

Chainsworded Codpiece
18-04-2007, 00:38
After reading Faith and Fire by James Swallow, I am not tempted to buy any of his other stuff. The writing was fairly poor, and his grasp of the 40k universe seems to be lacking.

Whaaaat?! Slave, you treacherous cur!

Not a month ago, during the Interminable Argument Not to Be Named, you told me I should read the damned thing!

You recommended it!

Specifically, you recommended it in reference to me getting a better idea of the portrayal of Sororitas religious zeal , and the activities of "average Imperial believer" versus, say, a frothing flagellant loony or a Repentia.

I wasted six accumulated hours on that book. And yeah, not the greatest.

But then again, they never are.

Even the best BL/WH40K fiction is going to be "ehhhhh" a lot of the time, or is going to have points in it where you say, "OK, they included that because they had to by Stupid Canon Law, not becuase they knew how to make it work within the story."

Inq. War series: Great in a way, rife with details that no longer make any sense in 40K as it stands.

Goto: Warrior Brood was impossible to read past the first page. Salvation, however, was compelling enough to read 2/3rds of the way through.

Chainsworded Codpiece
18-04-2007, 00:52
I recommend James Swallows Blood Angels books, he's a very good writer. Can't really say the same for his SoB book though.

Wierd. I felt the opposite. Faith and Fire was not good, but had good parts. The obnoxious "exposition disguised as thoughts or conversation" thing was awful and tacky, but entirely endemic to 40K stories.

There were failures to connect with fluff at points, but often done with the author's dramatic license (i.e., he needed to ignore stuff to make a given scene play out appropraitely dramatic...a hit-or-mostly-miss proposal, but again, common to almost all 40K lit).

Then there were scenes where "fluff" (as written in Codex) was used to make the drama happen; one scene in particular I hate. But again, almost every 40K novel will have this.

Now, having said this, Faith and Fire won't tell you anything you can't figure out from other sources, unless you're some sort of literalist imbecile. But parts are quite fun, and at least allow for the chartacters to occasionally step out of stereotype.

The Blood angel series contained all of the above problems, and it just...seemed too damned overwrought.

"We are the Blood Angels, ruled by our regrets and our passion to restore the glory days of Sanguinius..." Arrrgh. Like listening to a Peter Murphy solo album or something.

I think you have to already groove on the BA to really get into the BA duology. Whereas Faith and Fire won't convert anyone, but will likely entertain everyone for at least the first half of the book.

Gammarah
18-04-2007, 02:04
Wierd. I felt the opposite. Faith and Fire was not good, but had good parts. The obnoxious "exposition disguised as thoughts or conversation" thing was awful and tacky, but entirely endemic to 40K stories.

There were failures to connect with fluff at points, but often done with the author's dramatic license (i.e., he needed to ignore stuff to make a given scene play out appropraitely dramatic...a hit-or-mostly-miss proposal, but again, common to almost all 40K lit).

Then there were scenes where "fluff" (as written in Codex) was used to make the drama happen; one scene in particular I hate. But again, almost every 40K novel will have this.

Now, having said this, Faith and Fire won't tell you anything you can't figure out from other sources, unless you're some sort of literalist imbecile. But parts are quite fun, and at least allow for the chartacters to occasionally step out of stereotype.

The Blood angel series contained all of the above problems, and it just...seemed too damned overwrought.

"We are the Blood Angels, ruled by our regrets and our passion to restore the glory days of Sanguinius..." Arrrgh. Like listening to a Peter Murphy solo album or something.

I think you have to already groove on the BA to really get into the BA duology. Whereas Faith and Fire won't convert anyone, but will likely entertain everyone for at least the first half of the book.

Yeah, I probably only enjoyed those books cause I play BA. But I also agree with you on Faith and Fire, the first half of the book I liked, and there were some good parts, but I felt like it dragged on towards the end.

His Horus Heresy book was great though.

Rhamag
18-04-2007, 02:38
Oh, indeed, I totally agree. :) Black Library stuff is pulp SF/Fantasy war fiction, a bit like Commando! War Picture Action with words and on Gothic Steroids.

I have one in front of me. No 2166 - "Sound The Alarm!". It's about submarines. Cost 28p in 1988. :cool:

I've just finished "Lord of the Night" by Simon Spurrier, which is about the Inquisition (specifically a "doubt-ridden-but-powerful-psychic" female interrogator) and a Night Lord Traitor Marine (specifically a "long-lost-in-an-Eldar-warp-time-bubble-since-the-Heresy" 1st Captain of the Night-Lords, the Primarch's heir etc.) The action takes place in a hive city someplace dark & cold.

I've not read much Night Lords background so I don't know how accurate that side was, but the inquisition stuff seemed loyal. The characters were mostly a little weird (but it is 40K), but interesting enough.

It wasn't until the very last page when I realised why some parts of the story were familiar. It's got a lot taken from the Hannibal Lector books/films, particularly the ending. I won't spoil by saying the ending of which one though.

Worth reading, IMO, but not necessarily at the full cover price.

I'll also lend my vote for:

Dan Abnett
the Ciaphas Cain books by Sandy Mitchell
Gav Thorpe's Last Chancers trilogy
the Ultramarine books & Storm of Iron by Graham McNeill
William King/Other Guy's Space Wolf books
"Rogue Star" by Andy Hoare
"15 Hours" by ? Scanlon
Ben Counter
James Swallow

Chainsworded Codpiece
18-04-2007, 02:53
His Horus Heresy book was great though.

Haven't had the chance yet. I'll be reading it in Borders the minute a copy actually makes it to the shelves:).

Now, despite my damning Faith and Fire and the BA novels with (either) faint (or no) praise, it needs to be said that the general standard for writing 40K novels is rising somewhat.

If you can read anything by Swallow out of your library, do so. At his worst, I think he will nonetheless entertain.

If you must read anything by Goto, read Salvation. It presents a wierd idea as one of the centerpieces of motivation for the main character, who is basically a scrivener. But the idea is just that, an idea, and may be completely off-the-mark. Even the main character admits to this. It's an interesting set-up.

Stay away from Warrior Brood. As far as I am concerned, it's not even worth a free read at the library. It will make you dumber for having read it. Don't. A complete misfire.

More regarding Swallow...IF you are a fan of the Blood Angels, and really dig the story of Sanguinius, the Deus books might really, really, work for you. I can't really be trusted all the way on my criticism of the series. I've got serious personal problems with the way that ol' Sangy turned out in the fluff, so I tend towards unfair bias from the start. Even I have to admit, there were passages that I thought were well-written.


IIRC, the first attempts at 40K fiction in the (early early) 90's were, well, short stories, and were not good at all. They really epitomised "war-porn", and poorly-done even at that. One expects that serious flaws wouldn't be revealed in short-story format so frequently, but they were.

The Inquisition War, which at the time had no series title, changed that. For its time, it was shockingly good.

Now, of course, it ranks up there with many others, in the "Well, I see what the author's trying to do...wait, what the hell?! Why is that part even necessary?!" category. But, just trust me on this, there's a reason oldies like this are viewed respectfully by crusty old f@kks like me.

Give it a try if you can get the series for cheap. Take it slow. Too much at once, and I swear to Gxd you'll throw the book away. A slow reading, and you'll be...satisfied, if a great deal more perplexed.

Anything by Abnett is worth trying, even if you don't finish the book. Just pick any Gaunt's Ghost novel, it's not too hard to figure out the relationships a couple chapters in.

Traitor General, for instance, I found to be unsatisfying at the second half, but the first half was really good. It gives one:

A) ideas for Kill Team,

B) a once-over of the Traitor/Chaos forces that make it clear why Chaotics can be a viable long-standing enemy, something that is sorely lacking in much 40K fiction,

C) some hilarious (read: upsetting) views of occupation by a Chaos (or even Word Bearers) force on a planet that is just dooooooomed. Now, mind you, this is not occupation of the "sacrifice everyone overnight" doomed, this is long, drawn-out, "exploit everyone and everything here until they are husks, and they remember nothing of a life any other way" doomed.

Awesome.

Severian
18-04-2007, 07:45
It seems everyone has some strong opinions in this regard but thank you for your time and effort to share them, it has given me some new options to consider. By all means keep it up, it seems that quite a few of the 40K community is marginally erudite ;) Don't tell anyone, it will spoil our image :D

Toramino
18-04-2007, 07:53
Storm Of Iron is an entertaining read. C.S Goto has an alright writing style , but his fluff butchering is absolutley horrendus in whatever he does , avoid him if you care at all about fluff. Gav Thorpes last chancers are good too , and of course the new HH series.

Griffin
18-04-2007, 08:29
http://www.incunabulum.co.uk/Chronica%20Imperialis.htm

If you havn't been to this site to download these fanworks go there now and download "Emperors Finest". It's one of the Finest Stories Involving Imperial guard, Space marines, Chaos, Tyranids enc you can find - It puts most of the black library authors to shame. The other short story worth reading is "perspectives", dealing as it does with the different view points of the races in 40K. But for hardcore awesomeness "Emperors Finest" takes the cake as a Awesome novel.

"The Body" and "Death and Burial" are some thought provoking ones that deal with your average grunt that nobody really mourns (who cares how many imperial guard die during the course of a game ).

"Millenium of Pain" deals with what a dreadnought Pilot feels and experiances.

The "My Stories" area includes the Comedy Pieces like "Please don't feed the warboss", "The Intruder (santa)", "Just desserts", "Khorne on a Holiday" and "A message in a Bottle".

Just go there already.

rintinglen
18-04-2007, 08:46
Ciaphas Cain novels by Sandy Mitchell are really great reads. I loved the last one, Death or Glory, but all of them are pretty good. (Albeit any one who can remember Harry Flashman will definitely see the parrallel). Abnett is generally excellent as is William King, I particularly liked his Space Wolf Stories. C.S. Goto is just awful, his stories remind me of those Dungeon and Dragon Stories where the author just wrote out the game. If you need firewood, then I suppose he will do.
15 Hours was very good. It called to mind "All quiet on the western front" for me and was really quite well done..
On the other hand, Conquest of Armageddon is trash: poorly written, badly plotted, non-sensical trash at that. The author owes me $8.00 for wasting my time and money. In the woods, it might do for toilet paper. That would be all it is good for.[dice0]

Griffin
18-04-2007, 09:52
YAY - someone that has seen the light !

Slaaneshi Slave
18-04-2007, 13:00
Whaaaat?! Slave, you treacherous cur!

Not a month ago, during the Interminable Argument Not to Be Named, you told me I should read the damned thing!

You recommended it!

Specifically, you recommended it in reference to me getting a better idea of the portrayal of Sororitas religious zeal , and the activities of "average Imperial believer" versus, say, a frothing flagellant loony or a Repentia.

I wasted six accumulated hours on that book. And yeah, not the greatest.

But then again, they never are.

Even the best BL/WH40K fiction is going to be "ehhhhh" a lot of the time, or is going to have points in it where you say, "OK, they included that because they had to by Stupid Canon Law, not becuase they knew how to make it work within the story."

Inq. War series: Great in a way, rife with details that no longer make any sense in 40K as it stands.

Goto: Warrior Brood was impossible to read past the first page. Salvation, however, was compelling enough to read 2/3rds of the way through.

I recommended it for the SOB stuff, the "lacking" part of his 40k knowledge I was talking about is the "spare" Golden Throne and creating Psychers from blunts. Oh, and the protaganists getting his by a blast of psychic energy which was powerful enough to destroy Terra, but they cancelled it by praying. Hmmm.

Getz
18-04-2007, 13:52
15 Hours was very good. It called to mind "All quiet on the western front" for me and was really quite well done..


Hang on a sec, much I quite liked 15 hours, don't you think likening to probably the greatest piece of anti-war literature ever is a bit much? If 15 Hours was even half as good as All Quiet on the Western Front, it would be five times better than it is now...

narrativium
18-04-2007, 14:47
Bang on.

I was wary that I hadn't referred to any good examples of exposition in my previous rant, but here it is. Puts BL to shame. The first (non speach) sentence is almost perfect.

Robert Allen, author of Emperor's Finest, has a short story published in the BL anthology The Cold Hand of Betrayal, entitled Son of the Empire. I think it's excellent.

Bookwrak
18-04-2007, 14:50
I recommended it for the SOB stuff, the "lacking" part of his 40k knowledge I was talking about is the "spare" Golden Throne and creating Psychers from blunts. Oh, and the protaganists getting his by a blast of psychic energy which was powerful enough to destroy Terra, but they cancelled it by praying. Hmmm.

I know we read the same book, but I don't know where you're getting this from. For one thing, it wasn't a 'spare' golden throne, but one of those super duper pieces of lost ancient technology that are always getting chased, and then unfortunately destroyed in the end (oops, should I have spoilered that?:chrome: ). There is nothing in the fluff that says super duper Emperor designed tech can't turn normals into psykers. Not to mention it's an inherent ability for the SoBs for their holy faith to protect them from psychic attacks.

It's not a great novel, but it does and excellent job of adhering to the fluff of 40K, and presenting it in a way that works. The behavior of the enthusiastically faithful, and fanatical was appropriately unsettling. The piety can be very disturbing.

I love Ben Counter's Grey Knight and Soul Drinker novels. Definitely an excellent read, all of them.

Rpait
18-04-2007, 15:47
15 Hours - read it, now. One of my personal favorite BL novels.

A couple of others I have to recomend are:

Death World - just a fun read.

Storm of Iron - The reason I once played Iron Warriors.

warboss48
18-04-2007, 15:53
I found the Eisenhorn and Gaunts Ghosts books by Dan Abnett really good, but I didn't like the Ravenor series.

The Ciaphas(sp?) Cain books are pretty good too.

ancient_conflict
18-04-2007, 16:00
The Soul drinkers was slow to begin with however i persisted and it developed well and i am on the third one now

TheBloodWindOfChaos
18-04-2007, 16:05
15 Hours is Great, I really advise you to read that one. Its got action, a great story and a big, green, mean Orkish Hoard:D !

WWAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH:eek:

Chainsworded Codpiece
21-04-2007, 05:44
I recommended it for the SOB stuff, the "lacking" part of his 40k knowledge I was talking about is the "spare" Golden Throne and creating Psychers from blunts. Oh, and the protaganists getting his by a blast of psychic energy which was powerful enough to destroy Terra, but they cancelled it by praying. Hmmm.

All right...now I get it.

Though it didn't really turn me around concerning the Sisters. I thought it was a fun representation of them, but I wasn't shock-ola'd by anything concerning the portrayal of Imperial piety (and I had hoped to be). I did like the playing around with the idea of the "cop who doesn't play by the rules...but gets results!" thing with Miriya. That was a pretty funny turn on that old saw.

Actually, I found the portrayal of the Repentia somewhat unbelievable at points. And I'd hoped, again, to see something new and interesting. Damn it.

But forget all that. I agree COMPLETELY with you on the "prayer anti-nuke" thing, which was a seeming nod to the idea of Joel Schumacher reading the Acts of Faith in the Codex, then deciding "These are cool, but let's make them REALLY cool", and...well, directing that whole scene.

Gxd, a nightmare.

OK, on to some new info. I just read 1/2 of Chapter War in the bookstore, and, though showing some of Mr. Counter's usual flaws, is quite enjoyable. Having trudged through The Bleeding Chalice, which I felt was "ehhh" at best, I can say that CW is a welcome change.

I would actually recommend this to someone who is familiar w/40K Renegade Chapters as an idea, but hasn't read any of the previous Soul Drinker stuff.

It's pretty easy to pick up what's going on.

And the intro chapters are HIL-AR-IOUS, what with the Ork slaughter of Just About Everyone In Sight Who Are To Busy With Parade To Notice.

Dervos
21-04-2007, 06:06
I have

Tales from the Dark Millenium
Eldar Prophecy
Ultramarines Omnibus (is 3 books in 1)
15 hours

So far I have been pleased with what I have read. I like the detail apparant in all of the books.

If anyone is really hyped about space marines, read the Ultramarines Omnibus, especially books 1 and 2, I did not like part 3 as much but it had its own merits

Johnny Bravo
21-04-2007, 07:09
http://www.incunabulum.co.uk/Chronica%20Imperialis.htm

I just read Please Don't Feed the Warboss. Brilliant. I must read everything else on that site now. Thank you for posting that.

Magistrate
21-04-2007, 07:14
After reading Faith and Fire by James Swallow, I am not tempted to buy any of his other stuff. The writing was fairly poor, and his grasp of the 40k universe seems to be lacking.

I'll bite; what didn't you like about it? I've enjoyed it thus far. The only book i've disliked so far is the begining book of the Space Wolves Omnibus. Too much foreshadowing, kind of annoying to be repeatedly reminded about the other initiatie Ragnar wanted to kill every five pages.

Fear is the mind killer
21-04-2007, 12:58
My favourite writers are 1st: Ben Counter, 2nd: Dan Abnett, 3rd: Sandy Mitchell. The only reason why St Abnett isn't higher is because I'm only into his Ravenor series, the rest aren't my sort of thing.

Which writer is the one who repeatedly makes crazy inaccuracies in his writing, such as having terminators in razorbacks etc.? I'm pretty sure it's Goto which would explain why so many people oppose him.

Slaaneshi Slave
21-04-2007, 13:19
I'll bite; what didn't you like about it? I've enjoyed it thus far.

How far through it are you? I don't want to spoil it for you. Lets just say I don't like his writing style, he uses ingame devices much too literally, and butchers the background material.

victorpofa
21-04-2007, 13:32
I have only read the Space Wolf Trilogy (Half way through book 2) and it is OK so far. About the same level as most BattleTech or D&D books. Are any of the BL writers of higher caliber (like Wiess and Hickman, Stackpole, or Salvatore)?

Chainsworded Codpiece
21-04-2007, 16:49
I have only read the Space Wolf Trilogy (Half way through book 2) and it is OK so far. About the same level as most BattleTech or D&D books. Are any of the BL writers of higher caliber (like Wiess and Hickman, Stackpole, or Salvatore)?

Ummmm, the above doesn't sound like a good thing in the slightest.

Perhaps the quality has improved radically in the last ten years, but most "D&D" books were utter trash throughout the long, long history of that suffering little niche of literature.

"Gord the Rogue" series, anyone?

And I've admittedly only read two books in Salvatores' Driz'zt Do'Urden series of books. At the time I read them, they were hailed as a breath of fresh air because they weren't monumental ****e like that written by An Author Whose Name Rhymes with "Rary Ryrax". They were entertaining at the time, but...

Then I tried re-reading them a few years back, and, y'know, damn.

Clunky. Obvious. Not really worth all the praise. Not terrible, but I wouldn't say a "higher caliber".

Weiss and Hickman did all right for the first three books, but again, these were books geared towards an audience predisposed to liking them already, I think. Reading them years later when I'm no longer in seventh grade really opened my eyes as to how overwrought and heartstring-tuggy a lot of that stuff was. Which would be great, except I can now see the tricks before they happen.

Abnett flourishes because, as an F&SF genre writer, he's done a lot of sub-genres for a lot of different companies and in a fair number of "universes", both dystopic and utterly awful, and reasonably upbeat as well.

So he's used to switches in textual flavor, and his tricks aren't quite so obvious all the time.

Counter is similar, though I don't think he is as good as Abnett, IMHO. Your mileage may vary:)

Anyhow, most of the authors being discussed here are the Higher Caliber authors. Though I don't know what to make of the query as to whether they are "As good" as Salvatore,et al.

CommisarMolotov
21-04-2007, 17:05
I like Abnett's stuff a lot, but "Double Eagle" had one of the most disappointing endings I can remember...

It just jerked to a stop within about five pages. GRRRR!

"The Inquisition War, which at the time had no series title, changed that. For its time, it was shockingly good."

Oh, it's STILL good stuff! It's got a groovy inquisitor main character, a sexy Callidus assassin, a Space Marine that likes to scrimshaw his OWN bones, and a SQUAT! What more could you want?

Johnator
21-04-2007, 18:09
I highly recommend:
Ultramarine Omnibus
Eisenhorn Omnibus
Storm of Iron
Lord of the Night (really loved this one)
Space Wolf Omnibus
Soul Drinkers Omnibus
Ravenor
Horus Heresy books (good stuff)


Not impressed with:
Gaunt's Ghosts (yeah I know everyone else likes them but I read almost three books and just could not get into them)
Fire Warrior (good author but the book was eh)

Chainsworded Codpiece
21-04-2007, 18:28
I like Abnett's stuff a lot, but "Double Eagle" had one of the most disappointing endings I can remember...
It just jerked to a stop within about five pages. GRRRR!

Yeah, Abnett has his flaws, missteps and outright failures. Every niche author does, and the more they do in the same universe, with the same overall "feel", the more apparent those whoopsies and outright cock-ups are.

For instance, I gave Traitor General a favorable nod for a lot of reasons, but I'll tell ya, I HATED a lot of the end. Plot-wise, scripting-wise, the whole thing with Gaunt fighting an absurd Chaos Marine whose description was straight outta the Milton Bradley "Space Crusade" era of Evil Spacer'inos...and he won! AAAARGH! BOGUS! I don't care how cool he is, it just didn't ring right.



"The Inquisition War, which at the time had no series title, changed that. For its time, it was shockingly good."

Oh, it's STILL good stuff! It's got a groovy inquisitor main character, a sexy Callidus assassin, a Space Marine that likes to scrimshaw his OWN bones, and a SQUAT! What more could you want?


Yeah, those "Sons of Dorn" are all f@kkin' wierdoes.

You think you know a guy...then you find out in his spare time, he's a bone-stabber. Freaks.

It's creeps like that, is why we defected and went renegade, lemme tell yaz.

Well, that, and because we're bastards. ;)

Commissar Vaughn
21-04-2007, 18:51
Personnaly I dont like Gaunts Ghosts, I prefered Abnetts Heresy novel. I think one of the major failings is the novels try to do too much and he just cant cram it all in!

There is some utter rubbish in the BL, I know its fantasy but Mark of Chaos was possibly the worst book ever written and the author should be made to face charges for cruelty to the English Language...

Mitchal and Ciaphas Cain novels are good however, and 15 Hours seemed ok though I havnt read it all the way through yet.
I rather liked the short stories that appear from time to time, by G Rennie IIRC, about the cruiser Lord Solar Macharius.

Inquisitor Maul
21-04-2007, 19:28
I rather liked the short stories that appear from time to time, by G Rennie IIRC, about the cruiser Lord Solar Macharius.

Then you'll love Execution Hour and Shadow point ;)

victorpofa
22-04-2007, 03:24
Ummmm, the above doesn't sound like a good thing in the slightest.

Perhaps the quality has improved radically in the last ten years, but most "D&D" books were utter trash throughout the long, long history of that suffering little niche of literature.

"Gord the Rogue" series, anyone?

Hey! I liked the Gord the Rogue books! When they were published. And I was in high school. :) Though I must admit the very first one is still one of my favorite books, and I reread it every five years or so for sentimental reasons. It's a guilty pleasure. I have not read much genre fiction in the past decade, but the authors I quoted were the best TSR and FASA had on their payrolls back in the late 80's and early 90's. I have no idea about the authors they employ today.


And I've admittedly only read two books in Salvatores' Driz'zt Do'Urden series of books. At the time I read them, they were hailed as a breath of fresh air because they weren't monumental ****e like that written by An Author Whose Name Rhymes with "Rary Ryrax". They were entertaining at the time, but...

Then I tried re-reading them a few years back, and, y'know, damn.

Clunky. Obvious. Not really worth all the praise. Not terrible, but I wouldn't say a "higher caliber".

I never said high caliber. I said higher caliber. Let's face it. None of the authors who do genre fiction can hold a candle to the masters of the 50's - 80's such as Tolkien, Asimov, and Zelazny, but they do alright for their target audience. They can be entertaining, and that's all they need to be. Because of the inaccuracies attributed to Goto I will avoid him like the plague. Even if he is a good writer mistakes like Eldar worshipping Slaanesh are inexcusable.


Weiss and Hickman did all right for the first three books, but again, these were books geared towards an audience predisposed to liking them already, I think. Reading them years later when I'm no longer in seventh grade really opened my eyes as to how overwrought and heartstring-tuggy a lot of that stuff was. Which would be great, except I can now see the tricks before they happen.

Abnett flourishes because, as an F&SF genre writer, he's done a lot of sub-genres for a lot of different companies and in a fair number of "universes", both dystopic and utterly awful, and reasonably upbeat as well.

So he's used to switches in textual flavor, and his tricks aren't quite so obvious all the time.

Counter is similar, though I don't think he is as good as Abnett, IMHO. Your mileage may vary:)

Anyhow, most of the authors being discussed here are the Higher Caliber authors. Though I don't know what to make of the query as to whether they are "As good" as Salvatore,et al.

I was asking for the authors a cut above the rest in 40K fiction so that answers my question. Except for Goto :). I guess the authors I listed date me a bit. :o

Rhamag
22-04-2007, 03:58
I reckon that nearly all the material of the BL has to viewed not so much as boundary-pushing science fiction/fantasy literature, but more like "ripping yarns set in the Warhammer worlds..."

They are amongst the best and most entertaining Ripping Yarns I have ever read, and I am a big fan of the Ripping Yarn type of book.

If you want Ripping Yarns set in the Warhammer 40K Universe/Warhammer World, then Black Library's stuff is excellent. I have around 50, and still collecting.

A test might be: How many BL books would you recommend to people who had no knowledge or interest in the Warhammer settings? Or how many would you recommend to people who'd never read a sci-fi or fantasy book before?

PS. Two things I've always liked about Dan Abnett's books is that his characters usually have good names (Harlon Nayl, Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt), and he pays alot of attention to describing the background "fabric" of the worlds, inventing new names for everyday objects & buildings in the Pidjun Latin that High Gothic is.

victorpofa
22-04-2007, 05:59
I reckon that nearly all the material of the BL has to viewed not so much as boundary-pushing science fiction/fantasy literature, but more like "ripping yarns set in the Warhammer worlds..."

Well said. That's why I read books. I want genre fiction to entertain me and explore the background of the world/universe. If the story grips me it does not matter if the author is less than stellar. I read almost 20 books by David Eddings in the late 80's/early 90's and some of his turns of phrase kept cropping up over and over driving me crazy, but the overall story was gripping enough at the time to keep me reading. Personally, that's what I am looking for from the Black Library books. Gripping stories using the backdrop of the 40K universe. Not great literature destined to be taught in English class.

Rhamag
23-04-2007, 03:32
I've read lot of Eddings and Feist as well, and they fall into the same type of novel:

Stuff happens in the XXXXXX world, and it is enjoyable to read about.

Chainsworded Codpiece
24-04-2007, 01:31
Hey! I liked the Gord the Rogue books! When they were published. And I was in high school. :) Though I must admit the very first one is still one of my favorite books, and I reread it every five years or so for sentimental reasons. It's a guilty pleasure. I have not read much genre fiction in the past decade, but the authors I quoted were the best TSR and FASA had on their payrolls back in the late 80's and early 90's. I have no idea about the authors they employ today.

Yeah, I admit I read the first two "Ryrax" books in seventh grade and thought they were awesome. But the nostalgia thing doesn't work as well with me, I go back to those books and just wince.

In the end, though, it's Just My Opinion, and I shouldn't act like the Literature Ayatollah... unless I'm on school time dealing with the 6-through-8th-graders. :)

By the way, please accept my apologies for the snarky tone I had before. I read your message and saw, "I like what I see, but I want to know about higher-caliber authors, on par with Salvatore, Weiss and Hickman, et cetera." that blew my stack, as I vastly prefer Abnett and Farrar, or even Swallow, to the above. I assumed you were saying you felt them superior to the BL authors; this was a hasty, and frankly, stupid and reductive thing to assume. Again, I apologize.


I never said high caliber. I said higher caliber. Let's face it. None of the authors who do genre fiction can hold a candle to the masters of the 50's - 80's such as Tolkien, Asimov, and Zelazny, but they do alright for their target audience.

Yes, indeedy. By the way, in case it hasn't been mentioned, Matthew Farrar's Shira Calpurnia series has some really good bits. The latest, Blind, was quite atmospheric. I can't say if it was true to canon (or particularly untrue at any point), as I know crap-all about the Arbites, really.


They can be entertaining, and that's all they need to be. Because of the inaccuracies attributed to Goto I will avoid him like the plague. Even if he is a good writer mistakes like Eldar worshipping Slaanesh are inexcusable.

Oh, it's SOOOO much worse than that. I just pushed through Warrior Coven to see if there was some redeeming value...

...well, Goto does one thing right. He describes the massive alien grandeur of any given Craftworld really well.

But almost everything else this guy does is seriously, seriouly f@kked up. Including really amazing-that-they-weren't-caught-by-an-editor malapropisms, grammatical and idiomatic errors, and just plain poor descriptive choices, things that come out sounding stupid and parodic, when he clearly meant them to be "wild and evocative (of something)".

Total amateur hour. I mean, forget the absurdities of canon-rape, that could just be his overworked brain "trying to break new ground" in the fluff. This other stuff is astounding and unforgivable.

Now I have to go back to Salvation, and see why I thought it was worth a damn.

Griffin
24-04-2007, 07:45
Please - if love reading just go download Emperors Finest.

Brother-Hyuuga
24-04-2007, 07:59
Gaunts Ghosts are by far my favorite. Next would be the Space Wolves series, and then the Last Chancers novels.

Ethan Hunt
24-04-2007, 14:33
I can't say "anything" done by Abnett, but what i have, the two first Gaunt's Ghosts novels, are quite cool. I ended the first one, and i bought Double Eagle on-line. It's what i'm reading now. His portrait of 40k air combat is gritty, realistic and cool. The characters are beliveable, and his knowing of the 40k is evident. Quite a read, i reccomend it.
Altought not exactly literature, the kboom studios 40k comic "Damnation Crusade" is just cool. The story centers in the Black Templars. The story was done also by Abnett. The comic is very cool fluff-wise, and great.
There are two issues out, i recommend it. And they are in colour, which is better. You can see Necrons, Tau and Orks in these two issues. Plus you can get some kind of issue #0 on the GW site.

Shrapnel
24-04-2007, 14:46
When I started reading 40K fiction, I really wasn't expecting much. Then I picked up "First and Only" and I was hooked.

The only author in 40k I've really read is Abnett, and if I say nothing else about the guy, he uses some great imagery.

Probably the weakest of his work is ghostmaker, as its a compilation of short stories, and the very end of "His last Command" was a bit contrived to be honest, but all in all, his writing keeps me buying and reading.

The new Horus Heresy books are introducing me to new authors, some of whom draaaaag in their writing, but others are ok. The Fifteen hours book, I flicked through in a bookshop and from what I've read it seems enjoyable enough, but there wasn't enough weight to the book to make me fork out a tenner.

The Ciaphas cain books are just fun.

brotherhostower
24-04-2007, 15:24
Ok, going to add my 2 bitz in... (ok, after finishing this, maybe it's more like 5 bitz lol.)

I (almost sadly) have read most of the black library novels (damn BL running out of copies of the 2 Armageddon books and Deff Skwadron!). I rank the authors by knowledge of the setting they put their works in and writing style. Now, the Inquisition War Series, I had to choke to get through (like stuff written by certain stuffy british authors, and people in the last 50 years they "consider" literature simply because they were the first of their race/gender to write something about the "plight of their people".), but, it was full of fun fluff stuff that alot of the old hand players will reminisce about from time to time. Great Portrayal of Imperial Fists and the Callidus assassin (and yes, there was even a Squat). His writing style just jarred the daylights out of me, and most of his cool fluff is generally ignored by GW now, though not disavowed like Squats were.

I'd have to say, Dan Abnett is the most readable (some of my favorite books of all time, and I've got my degree in Lit just so y'can gauge how much I read lol). He stays true to the setting, isn't shy about killing his characters in a realistic manner (no immortal characters here yet). His characters are very likeable/dislikeable (as appropriate) and easy to empathize with. He does a good job of putting you there in the middle of the scene.

Grahm McNeil also does a great job of portraying the setting properly. This man knows his Space Marines. The Uriel Ventris Trilogy + Storm of Iron is a great set of reads. The series is fun, and very Space Marine (though suffers from character immortality at the moment). The same can be said of William King's & Lee Lightner's Space Wolf novels (deffinate character immortality here, as they always start with Ragner remembering the story of the book, so you know he lives through it.).

Warrior Brood/Warrior Coven were good Space Marine reads, I'd steer away from the Dawn of War series, and Eldar Prophecy though. I'm an Eldar player, I liked his portrayal of Ulthwe` in Warrior Coven, couldn't stand his eldar portrayal in Prophecy (though I liked the imagery of the super Warp Spider).

Dark Angels was a good novel, especially if you're a Dark Angels fan/player (for the DA players out there, read Sons of Fenris, half of it was a DA novel as well as being an SW novel).

Ben Counter's 1st Souldrinker's book, and his Grey Knights books were good and fun, though his 2nd & 3rd SD books suffered from sequalism like most movie franchises seem to (IMO).

I wouldn't re-read James Swallow's Blood Angels books again if I was on fire and reading them was the only way to put it out. His grasp of the setting (at the time he wrote these) is cursory at best, and his portrayal of the BA's leaves much to be desired. I've avoided Faith and Fire because of these books.

The Horus Heresy books so far are very good (though Galaxy in Flames is probably the least satisfying so far). Despite my opinion of his BA books, Swallow really picked up the pace with Flight of the Eisenstein, none of the glaring errors he made in the BA books re-appear here and it may be the best book of the series so far.

Farseer was a good novel, not about truely main stream 40k events, a good Rogue Trader novel. Shadow Point and Execution Hour were also very good and often missed (really they're BFG novels, not standard 40k, but very good nonetheless). Rogue Star was an ok read, nothing spectacular I'd say, but if you've got time and money, why not?

The short stories books are a great bargain, though there are a few short stories that are just gods aweful, for the most part, they're great.

Everyone has an opinion, these just happen to be mine (and are generally shared by the gaming club here), and I think it pretty much covers all the BL 40k books I've read. I hope they help.

Captain Jeffrey
24-04-2007, 20:58
40K Literature

Let me finish the sentence-

...is not very well written.

(40K's "fluff" per se isn't well written, either. It either has a lot of inconsistencies or constantly changes. Ex- Scythes of the Emperor space marines were supposedly wiped out. Suddenly, they're not. Rainbow Warriors were in... yeah, let's not talk about that one...)

(I'm not hugely into 40K fluff or sci-fi, but I do like the Mechwarrior series and Dune.)

If you wanna read these books, go ahead, but they're for people without much of a language education, and people like me enjoy haut culture, things more like "Une Annee Dans Le Sahel" or works by Voltaire.

That's just my opinion.

It's why I hated the movie "300" when I saw it.

"HOW COULD YOU NOT LIKE 300!?!?"

Me- "Because it just plain sucked. And it was grossly historically inaccurate and filled with political messages for today's world."

I liked one of Tehran's newspaper headlines after it came out-

"HOLLYWOOD DECLARES WAR ON IRAN"

Johnny Bravo
24-04-2007, 23:45
If you wanna read these books, go ahead, but they're for people without much of a language education, and people like me enjoy haut culture, things more like "Une Annee Dans Le Sahel" or works by Voltaire.

Way to imply that nearly everyone in this thread is lacking in education. And that really came across as 'I'm better than you because I read things that Lit majors dissect'.


That's just my opinion.

There are better ways to express one's opinion.


It's why I hated the movie "300" when I saw it.

"HOW COULD YOU NOT LIKE 300!?!?"

Me- "Because it just plain sucked. And it was grossly historically inaccurate and filled with political messages for today's world."

I liked one of Tehran's newspaper headlines after it came out-

"HOLLYWOOD DECLARES WAR ON IRAN"

What, pray tell, does this have to do with 40K novels? :eyebrows:

Gen.Steiner
24-04-2007, 23:49
If you wanna read these books, go ahead, but they're for people without much of a language education, and people like me enjoy haut culture, things more like "Une Annee Dans Le Sahel" or works by Voltaire.

People like you... seriously get on my nerves.

Particularly when you drop in random single words in a foreign language, because all of a sudden you've got 'culture'. No, you've picked up the odd phrase, and read Le Monde to look chic. See, I can do it too.

40K books are a branch of pulp SF, no more, no less. They can, at best, reach the heady heights of "average SF works" and, at worse, are still better than Charles bloody Dickens. Anyone thinking they are more than that - or should be more than that - is a fool. What's hilarious is that you then declare Mechwarrior to be preferable! That's pulp SF with big stompy robot suits, what, do robots suddenly make a work of fiction on a par with a work of great literature like All Quiet on the Western Front or 1984? If so, I'm sure Imperius Dictatio is the comic book for you.

As far as slandering everyone who reads pulp as being "without much of a language education", I will hazard a guess that - like me - most of the people posting in this thread have at least one degree. Like me, most of the people in this thread will be passingly familiar with another language (although the majority seem able to make posts without dropping into it, n'est pas?). Unlike me, perhaps, they will be unwilling to stoop to your level; after all this is the Interwebs, and on the Interwebs people can be tossers without fear of retribution - equally, most people ignore tossers on the Interwebs.

You, however, have slandered, and worse, irritated me. Your disgustingly patronising holier-than-thou attitude is, frankly, unwarranted and unwanted. So take it elsewhere, and please leave it behind when you post on Warseer in future. It's a nice atmosphere and I do so hate ruining it like this.

All that said, you're right about 300 - although the Iranian response was a little OTT given the graphic novel's been out for bloody ages.

victorpofa
25-04-2007, 00:40
Yeah, I admit I read the first two "Ryrax" books in seventh grade and thought they were awesome. But the nostalgia thing doesn't work as well with me, I go back to those books and just wince.

Yeah. I mostly like the way it goes through his development from a scawny urchin to an adventurer. This guy was never going to be anything but a thief. Though Gygax made him into a then-new Thief-Acrobat. Gotta use the shiny new class from the shiny new rule book.


In the end, though, it's Just My Opinion, and I shouldn't act like the Literature Ayatollah... unless I'm on school time dealing with the 6-through-8th-graders.

I hear ya. I tutor kids kicked out of school and one of my students is bipolar. I have to constantly bring his focus back to the work at hand, and remind him that nobody cares that he does not feel like doing his work. Especially when he does not even know why he does not want to do it. :wtf: Bipolar.


By the way, please accept my apologies for the snarky tone I had before. I read your message and saw, "I like what I see, but I want to know about higher-caliber authors, on par with Salvatore, Weiss and Hickman, et cetera." that blew my stack, as I vastly prefer Abnett and Farrar, or even Swallow, to the above. I assumed you were saying you felt them superior to the BL authors; this was a hasty, and frankly, stupid and reductive thing to assume. Again, I apologize.

No problem. I have no experience with the BL stable as the King Space Wolf books are my first. I have been trying to read some of my classic SF collection, but then I got into 40K and impulse bought the Space Wolf Omnibus from Amazon.


Yes, indeedy. By the way, in case it hasn't been mentioned, Matthew Farrar's Shira Calpurnia series has some really good bits. The latest, Blind, was quite atmospheric. I can't say if it was true to canon (or particularly untrue at any point), as I know crap-all about the Arbites, really.

I might have to check this one out. How many books? Is it done? Amazon US does not have any of them. Well, 1, but the guy selling it wants over $60 for it :eyebrows:


Oh, it's SOOOO much worse than that. I just pushed through Warrior Coven to see if there was some redeeming value...

...well, Goto does one thing right. He describes the massive alien grandeur of any given Craftworld really well.

Perhaps I should reread some of my Lovecraft instead. Though that would be more like Chaos. That's what we need. Have the Great Old Ones come in and kick Chaos' butt and take over their cults. Instead of summoning a blood thirster you summon MIGHTY CTHULHU!!! The mini is the size of a Titan :evilgrin:


But almost everything else this guy does is seriously, seriouly f@kked up. Including really amazing-that-they-weren't-caught-by-an-editor malapropisms, grammatical and idiomatic errors, and just plain poor descriptive choices, things that come out sounding stupid and parodic, when he clearly meant them to be "wild and evocative (of something)".

Total amateur hour. I mean, forget the absurdities of canon-rape, that could just be his overworked brain "trying to break new ground" in the fluff. This other stuff is astounding and unforgivable.

Now I have to go back to Salvation, and see why I thought it was worth a damn.

If he is really that bad a better use of your time might be removing one of your eyes with a spork. Less painful. ;)

Griffin
25-04-2007, 07:04
People like you... seriously get on my nerves.

Particularly when you drop in random single words in a foreign language, because all of a sudden you've got 'culture'. No, you've picked up the odd phrase, and read Le Monde to look chic. See, I can do it too.

40K books are a branch of pulp SF, no more, no less. They can, at best, reach the heady heights of "average SF works" and, at worse, are still better than Charles bloody Dickens. Anyone thinking they are more than that - or should be more than that - is a fool. What's hilarious is that you then declare Mechwarrior to be preferable! That's pulp SF with big stompy robot suits, what, do robots suddenly make a work of fiction on a par with a work of great literature like All Quiet on the Western Front or 1984? If so, I'm sure Imperius Dictatio is the comic book for you.

As far as slandering everyone who reads pulp as being "without much of a language education", I will hazard a guess that - like me - most of the people posting in this thread have at least one degree. Like me, most of the people in this thread will be passingly familiar with another language (although the majority seem able to make posts without dropping into it, n'est pas?). Unlike me, perhaps, they will be unwilling to stoop to your level; after all this is the Interwebs, and on the Interwebs people can be tossers without fear of retribution - equally, most people ignore tossers on the Interwebs.

You, however, have slandered, and worse, irritated me. Your disgustingly patronising holier-than-thou attitude is, frankly, unwarranted and unwanted. So take it elsewhere, and please leave it behind when you post on Warseer in future. It's a nice atmosphere and I do so hate ruining it like this.

All that said, you're right about 300 - although the Iranian response was a little OTT given the graphic novel's been out for bloody ages.

Can anybody here say "AMEN" ?

Severian
25-04-2007, 07:41
40K Literature

Let me finish the sentence-

...is not very well written.

(40K's "fluff" per se isn't well written, either. It either has a lot of inconsistencies or constantly changes. Ex- Scythes of the Emperor space marines were supposedly wiped out. Suddenly, they're not. Rainbow Warriors were in... yeah, let's not talk about that one...)

(I'm not hugely into 40K fluff or sci-fi, but I do like the Mechwarrior series and Dune.)

If you wanna read these books, go ahead, but they're for people without much of a language education, and people like me enjoy haut culture, things more like "Une Annee Dans Le Sahel" or works by Voltaire.

That's just my opinion.

It's why I hated the movie "300" when I saw it.

"HOW COULD YOU NOT LIKE 300!?!?"

Me- "Because it just plain sucked. And it was grossly historically inaccurate and filled with political messages for today's world."

I liked one of Tehran's newspaper headlines after it came out-

"HOLLYWOOD DECLARES WAR ON IRAN"


Ok then, I'm going to agree with General Steiner with regard to your post. You clearly have nothing positive to contribute to this thread. The original post was made by me so just a clarification - the reference to literature was made tongue in cheek as you would have noticed if you had read the whole of the post. This "literature" is as stated by a previous poster read with the intention to enjoy "a ripping good yarn" it is about relaxation and the enjoyment of the SF genre not the appreciation of great literary evolutionary works.

Good got that of my chest, now as for feeling superior and insulting basically everybody else on this forum -

you sir are an ass so sod off and go read something educational :mad:

Chainsworded Codpiece
26-04-2007, 00:46
Sad truth about the whole 300 thing; the portrayal of the Persians is absolutely historically accurate as later Greek "historians" had it.

They viewed them as monsters, and wrote about them as if they were monsters. This movie, and the comic, which came out in '99, is propaganda, but it's propaganda from an age long before ours.

It wasn't meant to declare "war" on any current culture; the assumption that the current people of Persian descent have anything to do with that time is, of course, absurd. Both on Redneck America's part, and the part of the current President of Iran. Just absurd.

Frank Miller likes to play around with xenophobia, and with agitprop craziness. He never knew they would release the damned film amidst all of what has happened. HE AND HIS WIFE WROTE AND INKED THE WORK BEFORE 9/11, long before.

IF you want to complain about Miller, go after his creepy homophobia. Or his ripping off too much from Kyle Baker for The Dark Knight Strikes Back.

As for the rest of Captain Jeffery's post...damn. Honestly, you think letting us know that 40K literature isn't up there with Turgenev or Camus is ...what, useful, somehow? Holy everlovin' f@kk. Lower your dosage, fella. It isn't necessary to bust that one over our heads.

EDIT: "...they're for people without much of a language education..." No, not really. Those without much of a language education read them without any reservations whatsoever, skimming to find that which excites them in the narrative, and ignoring the import of anything else there.

Those of us with "something of a language education", trudge through the books that show some hint of interesting twist on the same old ideas...we criticize, mentally corect, and/or attempt to ignore that which doesn't work either lexically or in terms of already-established narrative.

In both cases, one could say that all parties involved :

A)Find what's "good", as best they can define it,

B)Read for that, attempting to determine a ratio of "Good" versus "unGood",

C)Determine by the ratio seen in the book-in-question whether the book was, overall, a hit or a miss.

Gen.Steiner
26-04-2007, 00:56
Sad truth about the whole 300 thing; the portrayal of the Persians is absolutely historically accurate as later Greek "historians" had it.

Which isn't the same thing as being historically accurate. ;)

I mean, at least he could've had the Spartans wear more than jockstraps...

Chainsworded Codpiece
26-04-2007, 01:09
Which isn't the same thing as being historically accurate. ;)

I mean, at least he could've had the Spartans wear more than jockstraps...

Hey, they were on the beach, man. Ya gotta get down to ya skivvies at a beach party.:)

No lie that what we had here was, essentially, a "supah-heerah" story. As for inherent truth, there is little to be found. Especially in Miller's take on Leonidas, an awfully modern-thinking, Enlightenment-era fellow if there ever was one.

Nonetheless, I despair at all the supposedly discerning individuals out there who are just shocked, SHOCKED, to see 300 allowed in the theaters, what with it being an Open Provocation Against Middle-Eastern Culture, Racist Yada Yada.

Having shouted through a fair number of threads concerning Nazi Idiots in Wargaming, Sexism in Wargaming, Homophobia in Wargaming, et cetera...well, it's pretty obvious as to what I'm hypersensitive to.

And yet I know this is not a movie designed to incite any religious or cultural "war". Why do so many other folks not see this?

EDIT: Okay, shutting up about this...NOW! No more off-thread stuff for me.

Gen.Steiner
26-04-2007, 01:15
it being an Open Provocation Against Middle-Eastern Culture, Racist Yada Yada.

That it isn't.

What it IS is inaccurate, and that is I am afraid a far worse crime than being sexist, racist, and warmongering. :p 's true! Satan has a special place reserved for historical inaccuracies. ;)

victorpofa
26-04-2007, 01:18
I mean, at least he could've had the Spartans wear more than jockstraps...

That one was for all the ladies <bomp chica bow wow> :D

I greatly enjoyed the movie, and I even still had my hearing after the credits rolled. Always a plus. The overreaction over this movie was just stupid. How many people who saw it even know that Persia was located in the middle east? Xerxes looked Indian to me. He could play Dalsim in a Street Fighter movie :) I have students who can't tell me where Vietnam is on a world map. One could not tell me where Italy was :wtf: Many adults in the US are similarly geographically challenged. An aunt of mine, upon hearing I was going to New Mexico for college, asked why I was not going to school in the United States. True story.

What I disliked about the movie was the unnecessary sex scene and writhing naked girl. Both felt like they were shoehorned in to add female nudity. This was an action movie so the nudity was unnecessary and IMHO unwelcome.

Back on topic: Many of the Black Library books are hard to find in the US, and are being sold by psychos on Amazon for 10x their cover price. Sheer insanity. I'll wait for the omnibus, thank you.