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+_Void_Crusaders_+
18-04-2007, 00:06
Hey guys,
I put up a chaos list the other day to the amount of 2,500 pts. In that fleet I did not have a battleship. Now that I think more about it I think I may try and remove a cruisers (or maybe two :S) and upgrade to a battleship.

First off I thought I'd ask you guys of the three variaties (Damnation fury Desp, Despoiler or Desolator), which do you prefer for your style of play? Secondly, is there a points limit in your games that you find you just NEED to take a battleship?

Thanks a bunch

EDIT: PS, as a side note, can you take more than one "variant" of some of the entries? As in it says that for repulsives one of the famous cruisers had better targeting systems for +10. If I take 2 Repulsives can i take both the upgrades? I'd think not as they're supposed to be "famous" but the other side of me says "Hey, I'm paying for it aren't I?"

Killgore
18-04-2007, 00:18
when i used to play Chaos I used to enjoy using the Despoiler, lots of launch bays and a cripling strength 7 lance battery when 30cm away from your enemy

+_Void_Crusaders_+
18-04-2007, 00:20
So you wouldn't suggest trading in the str 4 30cm lances for str 8 torps?

fracas
18-04-2007, 00:32
i only field a battleship when playing over 1500 pts. then i use it as a fire magnet.

IncrediSteve
18-04-2007, 02:19
Under 1000, and the battleship is a solid third of your forces and clearly what you are relying on. It will most likely be picked apart by nimbler ships in a balanced fleet, and now you've only got 60% of a fleet to use.

At 1500 it barely fits, probably usable and possible to protect.

1500+ and it's gold, a good juggernaut or two is a always a healthy addition to a large fleet.

horizon
18-04-2007, 04:48
With Chaos I use the Desolator whenever I play 1500 point matches. Despoiler is a NO-NO!

In an Corsair Eldar fleet I select the Void Stalker immediately when I hit the 1000 point mark!

Admiral Koppenflak
18-04-2007, 06:24
I personally dislike the Desolator. It's more undergunned than the Retribution (I know this is a subject of debate, but this is more personal opinion...) That said, the Desolator right now is the only chaos battleship I own, so if I field one, it's invariably not a matter of choice that I HAVE to field it. The only other option is the Planet Killer, but that thing is an utter fire magnet.

I'm probably going to get a Despoiler. My experience so far with the Desolator has been underwhelming. For the 300 it costs me, I'd much rather spend the points elsewhere. From my experience, Chaos cruisers are more than adequately gunned to take on an Imperial Retribution (And I am normally Imperial... so take this as you will)

horizon
18-04-2007, 09:41
Desolator: 25cm speed, it can keep up with the rest of your fleet!
And do not see it as a 'Battleship' but as what it is: a 'Fast-Battleship'!

My results with the Desolator are always good. Do not use it as a linebreaker but as long range fire support.

The Despoiler is just obsolete because of the quite excellent Devestations.

Zhai Morenn
18-04-2007, 15:56
For Imperials or Chaos I usually say that 1000+ point are acceptable conditions to field a battleship though optimally you get it at 1500.

The Despoiler is an amazing ship- 8 Forward lances when within 30 cm is good- but also if you take the torpedo replacement for the 4 lances, do remember you can render an ordinary enemy ship useless with 16 H&R Ordnance markers from A-boats and boarding torps. All in all a pretty solid carrier.

The Desolator is undergunned compared to other bs but is also the cheapest bs you will have access to. Additionally, it can move 25 cm which is just amazing for a battleship (except for Eldar, they remain unimpressed). One way of using the Desolator that I have always encouraged is to upgrade it to have a Chaos Space Marine crew with a Mark of Korne. With it's speed it can close far more quickly with the enemy while spitting S9 Torp salvos into their formation and when it gets there you have pretty much no ships which can beat it in a boarding action except for Ork Hulks, Ork Battleships with Warlords, or Nid Hiveships and extra carapace cruisers. And even then, the only ship which out matches you cleanly is the Hulk

By Damnations Fury Despoiler I assume you mean the Terminus Est- and in fielding that you'd have to go with a nurgle fleet in the fleet list- that aside I have little experience with this ship so I can't form a strong opinion.

Planet Killer... yeah- in a 2500 fleet you can afford it and revel in the sheer firepower it brings to the table. So many batteries, lances, and even wide arc torp launchers, not to mention the Armageddon gun which is like a 90cm Nova cannon that hits everything in it's path.

Admiral Koppenflak
18-04-2007, 16:30
Horizon:

Hmmm... I'll bear that in mind. Thanks! Has it always been 25cm? Did they change this in the '07 rules, Or have I simply not used it enough to notice this small detail?

As for the Despoiler - are they they bad? Strength 8 launch bays and strength 7 lances? This, on paper, outguns an Apocalypse. I was led to believe they are a very effective battleship... On par with the Emperor, or there abouts.

+_Void_Crusaders_+
19-04-2007, 00:31
By Damnations Fury Despoiler I assume you mean the Terminus Est- and in fielding that you'd have to go with a nurgle fleet in the fleet list- that aside I have little experience with this ship so I can't form a strong opinion.

Planet Killer... yeah- in a 2500 fleet you can afford it and revel in the sheer firepower it brings to the table. So many batteries, lances, and even wide arc torp launchers, not to mention the Armageddon gun which is like a 90cm Nova cannon that hits everything in it's path.

hmm... I didn't know the Est was the damnation fury... I haven't even seen the rules on it yet (I quit around the time it was first introduced, and now im back), but I was intrigued. I do have a Nurgle fleet as is so I was planning on using the model anyway.

I don't care for the Planet killer anyways as I find it somewhat un-fluffy... I'm not even a fan of special characters really in most game systemes really. I just find it hard to believe that X person showed up, in person, to fight on your side... I guess it's more believable with Gothic as there aren't supposed to be sooo many ships, but I'm still undecided about the PK.

+_Void_Crusaders_+
19-04-2007, 01:14
WOW, just read the rules on the Est! Not only is it not really a special character (No Typhus if I read correctly) but it's not overpriced! From what I can see, you gain 1 str to the lances, more directional control over lances, 1 extra squadron of ordnance, a free blast marker from the guns, and even a mark of Nurgle for 30 Pts!!! The only - I can see is that it looks vulnerable to torps... An interesting Pro/Con system, but i like it! That whole torp thing could really bite you in the ass, but aside from that I'm thinking it's a great buy! I had already planned on doing a Nurgle fleet and the Est would be a sweet ship for my warmaster.

What do you guys think? (PS I see no mention of it being the "Damnation Fury" variant that was originally listen in the BFG rulebook... Any help here?)

IncrediSteve
19-04-2007, 02:34
I'm assuming they didn't remember that the Damnation's Fury is the character ship that has torpedoes instead of lances. Most people always just say "torp upgrade" and don't remember the name.

As for the Terminius Est, I'm rather upset it by. I don't like Nurgle at all [all that desease and decay makes me sick :rolleyes: tee hee] but I always really thought that to be worth it's points a Despoiler's Prow Batteries should be F/L/R firing arc. Could always counts-as I guess...

Zhai Morenn
19-04-2007, 03:23
Oh right, my bad. I went back and looked through the BBB and realized the mistake: I had thought you were talking about an entirely different variation of ship, not just a special ship with torpedos. But as with all upgrades like that it really boils down to the gaming group you're with as to whether you get to count it as a unique ship or if it is just a variation that others can use as well (like torpedo Dauntlesses).

As stated before, torp-armed despoilers are pretty nasty what with the potential to hit a target with 8 bombers/ABs and 8 Torps/boarding torps in one turn.

+_Void_Crusaders_+
19-04-2007, 04:48
As for the Terminius Est, I'm rather upset it by. I don't like Nurgle at all [all that desease and decay makes me sick :rolleyes: tee hee] but I always really thought that to be worth it's points a Despoiler's Prow Batteries should be F/L/R firing arc. Could always counts-as I guess...

So are you upset by the Terminus Est OR are you upset by all despoilers then? As a BS I find the Terminus to be GREAT for it's points cost (if you see my new list I think i'm going to take one for my 2,500Pt fleet).

As to my previous comment, under the rules it says the Warmaster must be on that ship (aside from the Planet killer). So what happened to Typhus? being a Captain i guess he doesn't "run" the ship (I just finished reading the 2nd to last Horus Heresy book on the DG :P), but I had thought he was in command... So if I put my Warmaster on this ship, going by fluff, shouldn't there be a Space Marine crew (and being the first company, terminators!)?

horizon
19-04-2007, 04:58
Horizon:

Hmmm... I'll bear that in mind. Thanks! Has it always been 25cm? Did they change this in the '07 rules, Or have I simply not used it enough to notice this small detail?

As for the Despoiler - are they they bad? Strength 8 launch bays and strength 7 lances? This, on paper, outguns an Apocalypse. I was led to believe they are a very effective battleship... On par with the Emperor, or there abouts.

The Desolator has always been 25cm speed. And again: it is not undergunned. And I never used it as Zhai described, but it is an option. Learn to use the Desolator, it will bring you battlefleet happiness.

The Despoiler = 8 AC, 12 hitpoints, 7 lances, 12 batteries, 20cm speed, 400 points.
2 Devastations = 8 AC, 16 hitpoints, 8 lances, 12 batteries, 25cm speed, 380 points.

Also the forward lances on the Despoiler(it has a total of 7, not 8) are stupid placed. 30cm Range, you need to keep your 5+ prow pointed at the enemy, no more fun then to shoot with batteries at closing battleships within 30cm.
The torp variant is better tough.

Terminus Est: pffft, Tau, Eldar and Imperial Navy eat this vessel with their torpedoes. Like the model but rules could use improvement.

Admiral Koppenflak
19-04-2007, 10:45
Hmmm. Doing the math, you've got a point on the devastations. Suddenly I'm glad I have 4 of them. :P

fracas
19-04-2007, 20:35
for chaos i like the planet killer over the despoiler. the planet killer is awesome but i only field it over 2000 pts. as already stated, 2 devastation is better than a despoiler and i field one devastation per 500 pts to 2000 pts.

for imperial i take the retribution partly because of the 25cm movement

horizon
20-04-2007, 04:41
Retribution has 20cm movement but I'm sure you made a typo....

fracas
20-04-2007, 20:00
yes, my bad
i think the retribution is better because its movement is not "handicapped" as much by blast marker as BB with only 15cm movement

Souleater
04-06-2007, 13:06
I used to play against a guy who would use a BS in a 500pt convoy mission.

Yeah...that was a lot of fun for my Eldar :(

Darkhorse
04-06-2007, 14:42
13th Black Crusade; Desolator as CSM battlebarge, for extreme boarding action carnage. Usually in Campaign setting where its abilities are more useful.
Imperial Navy; Oberon Class, large defensive actions, again campaign setting. Nothing like a squadron of the things to deter planetary assaults, and a Ramillies isn't available.
Space Marines; The Battle Barge can be quite important for the SM as everything else can prove a little fragile.

IncrediSteve
04-06-2007, 15:43
I used to play against a guy who would use a BS in a 500pt convoy mission.

That's not actually legal on two different points, A) there's no way to get in the mandatory three cruisers before taking a BS in 500 points, and B) Convoy runs have a limit that no ship can cost more than 200 points.

Though if you were throwing out those rules and willingly let him use it, whatever boats your float I guess...

Havock
04-06-2007, 18:18
I used to play against a guy who would use a BS in a 500pt convoy mission.

Yeah...that was a lot of fun for my Eldar :(

I think you would have found it easy enough if you picked on his weakness.

Specifically: his **** and his turning radius.

Speed by him and blast him to **** with torpedoes/lances/whatever you have.

horizon
04-06-2007, 19:41
Indeed Eldar should've won!

Anyway when it was a campaign game it could have been entirely legal to field a battleship plus escorts.

Remember: on the campaign list it needs to be 3 cruisers -> 1 Battleship but once you play a game you can pick all ships without list restrictions.

Souleater
04-06-2007, 21:43
Oh, yes this was part of a campaign.

horizon
05-06-2007, 09:46
Solved :) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Havock
05-06-2007, 13:09
still, you should have won.

What was his ship and what are yours.

Lets us help you bring fiery vengeance to the battleboat! :p

Souleater
06-06-2007, 12:59
Speed by him and...

.play catch up? Yeah, that's what I did but it was always a bitch if the solar wind was the wrong way, or it there wasn't cover (random terrain generation can be a bitch). With 60cm WBatteries he could cover a good chunk of the board against my escorts

(iirc at the time Eldar couldn't have any Cruiser that fit within the points restriction of the Convoy Attack Scenario.)

Its years back so don't remember the name of his BS but it was Imperial with Flight Bays. Apart from Cruiser Clash, it turned up everywhere.

The Frieghters and Escorts could guard his rear. Trying to take out one would lead to getting hit by the other, and he usually had his escorts in multiple groups.

OTOH, he hated cruiser clash because my cruisers would shred his lumpen and unlovely ships to pieces. On a couple of occasions he lost four cruisers without ever getting to roll a 'to hit' dice.

When we ( a group of five) finally got the the last turn of the campaign he point blank refused to bring the BS to any of the battles as everybody had made an oath to destroy the thing regardless of the mission objectives.

There were fun times and he was a good bloke to play against.

Havock
06-06-2007, 14:00
Probably an emperor, rates as one of the best BB's in the game if you ask me; the +1 ld is great (*cough* reload ordnance) and while it lacks laces, it has such craploads of weapon batteries, you don't need lances.

It could of course be an Oberon.

KaldCB
06-06-2007, 20:08
I use battle ships in 1500 points. planet killer is my favorite choice, but the despoyler is good for ordinace armys.

ml2sjw
07-06-2007, 11:23
Don't forget Nids have no choice but to take a battle ship if using their main list and very nasty they can be to.. st28 WB anyone? or st 8 launch bays that never ever run out of ordnance and have no limits what so ever placed on the amount of ordnance they can produce...

fracas
07-06-2007, 12:06
Tau also has to take a battleship at 750 pts on up as well