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Odin
18-04-2007, 00:55
Even as a novice Inquisitor player I know that it's important not to create characters that are excessively powerful. Unfortunately that makes it very hard to take stuff like power weapons or bolt weapons, as these can be absolutely devastating. I was thinking about toning them down a bit to make them less dominant.

For example, power weapons in 40K these days are more about ignoring armour than increasing damage. So I am considering reducing damage done by a power sword to 2D10 (same as a chainsword), but making it ignore armour. That would make it weaker against most characters, but maybe slightly more powerful against heavily armoured characters - a nice balancing point, I think.

Has anyone else done something similar with their house rules? If so, what rules have you used, and how well has it worked?

precinctomega
18-04-2007, 09:13
I think this is a mistake. Power weapons and bolters are amongst the most devastating weapons in the Imperial armoury and their effectiveness should reflect that appropriately.

Remember that power weapons don't really ignore armour. That's just a 40k simplification of their effect. They use a sub-atomic disruption field to slice apart the bonds between molecules. Hit someone without armour under those circumstances and you should be lopping off limbs with ease.

In real terms, the damage done by both bolters and power weapons is rather understated in the INQ rules, IMO.

R.

Odin
18-04-2007, 11:07
I agree that they've over-simplified things with 40K - I always thought power weapons out to give +1 strength as well.

So essentially, it's just a case of making sure these sort of weapons are properly rare, and the characters wielding them have some kind of weakness that can be exploited?

precinctomega
18-04-2007, 15:16
Well, no, not necessarily.

People get very hung up about "balance" and "fairness". But these terms are practically meaningless in Inquisitor. If your character is the sort of person who would convincingly be equipped with a power sword and bolt pistol then give him a power sword and bolt pistol! Don't tone him down because you don't want to be seen to be a "bad" player.

An inquisitor who expects to have the best of everything, will have the best of everything. And weaknesses aren't defined on the character sheet. They sit, most often, in the mind of the player.

I remember playing a game against a relatively new player who had loaded his Inquisitor up with every bionic advance known to man. He was a real monster in the melee, thanks to implant weapons, high WS and an enormous Stength bonus. As a result, he spent most of the game charging into close combat with characters I sent specifically to get in his way.

Meanwhile, my sneaky inquisitor grabbed the objective and legged it.

My opponent could easily have reached the objective first (using his advanced bionic legs and 12 yard sprint) and taken it for himself, but he was so pleased with his "new toy" character that he ignored the objective in favour of having fun. But now I have the Codex Maleverbus (Book of Bad Words!) and he doesn't.

R.

Odin
18-04-2007, 16:34
Yeah, I appreciate the fact that Inquisitor is not all about game balance. I just don't like my characters to be too powerful, it seems to detract from the character.

I wanted to use the old Orlock Leader model from Necromunda - the one with the bolter and axe. But he was just going to be a sort of bounty hunter, and a bolter seemed maybe a bit too powerful.

Elcampbello
18-04-2007, 17:39
Well for fluff reasons my Inquisitors gaurdsmans bolter does 3D6 damage due to the fact he has to make his own ammo, 'casue their undercover and whatnot.

Lord Inquisitor
23-04-2007, 23:10
Really, power weapons should do as much damage as power weapons should do. They're very powerful, and they should be. The more obvious solution to me seems to be don't take power weapons...

I do have some issues with some of the power weapons, though, and with bolt weapons. Power swords do a smidge too much damage in my opinion, as do power axes, in relation to the other power weapons. Put another way, power fist and chain fists are really rather rubbish compared with, say, a power axe. Even using the "grab" attack (or attacking stationary targets in the case of the chain fist) the amount of damage dealt is very similar to the power axe with inferior "to hit" chance, Reach, Parry Penalty, etc.

As for bolt weaponry, after many years of playing, I have to say the damage is a tad too high. While I'm quite aware how deadly they should be, they seem out of line with the other weapons in the armoury. 2D10 damage or 2D10+2 seems quite enough. After all, lasguns and autoguns deal very little damage compared with what you might expect them to do "realistically".

Sarison
28-04-2007, 01:30
If we say that an autogun is comparable to an AK-47 (7.32 mm x 39 mm) than a bolter is like putting two of them together. if i recall correctly, than i think that a bolter is something like a .75 cal shell. which explodes inside of you. similar to an anti-aircraft gun.

if anything, they should be more powerful, and some of that power should wash back onto the shooter (any remember newton's third law?) if a space marine can't use one without any kick, neither can you.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 01:33
a good games master wont tone such weapons down. they are power weapons and bolt guns after all. a good gamesmaster would say: "no, you dolt, you dont get one for reasons A B and C"

and i want a lightsaber.

Sarison
28-04-2007, 01:39
and i want a lightsaber.

i knew this would come. a power weapon (one of good quality at least) IS a lightsaber. the old ones were made of pure energy blades. the new ones are made from plasteel alloy and space marine urine. and lasgun cells. they just dont make them like they used to.

but seriously, some were made as energy swords and some are swords sheathed in energy.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 01:47
your momma is sheathed in energy

oh god dont ban me!!!! hes my friend! i know him in the real world!

Lord Inquisitor
28-04-2007, 17:27
If we say that an autogun is comparable to an AK-47 (7.32 mm x 39 mm) than a bolter is like putting two of them together. if i recall correctly, than i think that a bolter is something like a .75 cal shell. which explodes inside of you. similar to an anti-aircraft gun.
True enough. But nevertheless, the relationship with the other weapons is what counts not some arbitrary "realism". For example, a bolter does about a point less on average than a heavy bolter. That doesn't sit well with me, the heavy bolter shells are considerably larger in caliber, and every indication from the background is that they do ferocious damage.

And actually I wouldn't expect boltguns to have a really serious recoil. After all, the bolts contain their own propellant which ignites after firing - the gun just needs to apply enough force to get it out of the barrel. That wouldn't be inconsiderable - it is a huge projectile for the size of the weapon - but it means the gun wouldn't tear your arm off!

Odin
28-04-2007, 20:09
a good games master wont tone such weapons down. they are power weapons and bolt guns after all. a good gamesmaster would say: "no, you dolt, you dont get one for reasons A B and C"

Well, I think my inquisitor can justify having a power sword, and the model has one. But I just don't want him to be too powerful. Tricky balancing act.

Lord Inquisitor
28-04-2007, 20:13
While I still think that power swords are "too good" in relation to the other power weapons when taken overall, if it is balance you're looking for, you could always give your guy a low WS... ;)

Odin
28-04-2007, 20:20
While I still think that power swords are "too good" in relation to the other power weapons when taken overall, if it is balance you're looking for, you could always give your guy a low WS... ;)


Hmm, not in keeping with the character though.

I suppose he's already disadvantaged by being an Inquisitor without any psychic powers.

Bretagne
28-04-2007, 21:16
Well, I think my inquisitor can justify having a power sword, and the model has one. But I just don't want him to be too powerful. Tricky balancing act.

well, the power sword looks liek a regular sword, except it has a bead with a line down the side of the blade. you could easily cut that off or ignore it.

Inquisotor Tyrus doesnt have any psychic powers and he has a power fist, power knife and power armor! along with all sorts of gnarly ammunition for hunting witches.

ChaosTicket
29-04-2007, 05:35
I remember back when Power weapons were useful to everyone. a Imperial Guard Colonel with one could easily kill Space Marines. Now they dumped powers.

Power weapons are easily capable of searing a person in half, and bolt weapons cause a wound the size of a basketball.

You need to remember that these weapons were largely created to kill even the largest orks. a Weapon able to kill an Ork Nob in Mega armor, wil slice a Human in half.

Really You need to explain thinsg in Inquisitor a bit. Like why an Inquisitor has so many prosthetic limbs. If he has heavy armor then how is he carrying it all, as bionic arms don't strengthen the rest of you.

Most Inquisitors will have at least a bolt pistol and chainsword. Their henchmen will likely have Autoguns or better.

Sarison
30-04-2007, 05:32
And actually I wouldn't expect boltguns to have a really serious recoil.

i would, if they accerated on their own, why is their no flame wash back onto their firer? and if they accelerate in the air, would their not be a considerable acceleration lag as they ignited and flew forward? and would they not have a considerable drop in hieght as this was happpening?

and in regards to the heavy bolter thing, i dont recall them ever having a larger shell than regular bolters. im looking at my IG heavy bolter crew right now and they appear to have the same shell size as a chaos belt-fed boltgun.

and i agree with chaos they are supposed to be big and nasty, thats why they give them to people how need to kill big nasty things. maybe include an armour piercing aspect to them? oh, right, they already have one. if try to parry them, you break stuff in half.

Strelok
30-04-2007, 06:28
Bolter rounds are self-propelled according to all fluff that I've seen. Despite this, there still exists considerable recoil (much like with a rocket launcher [NOT a recoil-less rifle, as there exists something behind where the bolt is flying from]). However, flame wash is most likely minimal simply because of the size of the bolt, and most likely this wash would only be dangerous directly around the barrel (most likely one of the reasons for the large venting on the barrels of bolt-weapons). Due to this, it can be assumed that the firer is fine unless he was to quickly move his hand behind the departing round, which simply does not make sense. As for acceleration lag, this should not be a factor as the original impetus given by the gun itself will get the round to its top speed, or close. It can be assumed that the round does not accelerate indefinitely, as this is essentially impossible in this situation.

This is simply my look at boltguns from the standpoint of a physics student as well as an avid shooter. I could be dead wrong, and then there's the fact that the 40k universe often ignores or bends the laws of physics. On that note I guess my post is completely worthless.

Sarison
30-04-2007, 23:14
that was my understanding also. i just wanted to make sure it wasn't over looked.

Bretagne
30-04-2007, 23:32
to say such a powerful weapon wouldnt have recoil is folly. boltguns are so powerful, i dont think a normal human could use one without some sort of penalty. the only character that had one also had a bionic arm to use it.

Odin
01-05-2007, 00:45
Bolt rounds don't ignite until they leave the barrell, so recoil would be minimal, just enough to account for the initial launch.

Stouty
01-05-2007, 01:09
I think in terms of toning them down there certainly are a couple ways to really stump people, namely ammunition.

Keep the gun churning out all that firepower but just remember that it's hard to get a hold of and maintain so as long as nobody goes crazy on reloads people with rarer weapons are facing shortages fairly quickly. Under conditions like those autoguns and that really shine and the game starts to balance itself out.

Power weapons are harder but they do have to be looked after and remember that they are hard to conceal. Our game master had the various warbands take part in a little meeting in the open space port. Before we got talking things got shut down and some crazy wing of the admech was up to something for sure. Anyways all anybody had was any non overt armour (flak-yes, power-no) and small arms they could conceal on their person.

It was quite funny really, we had a monodominant INQ who is usually running around with a thunder hammer screaming littanies of the emperor darting around with a knife and stubber.

So yes, you can tone them down but that needn't involve watering down the stats. People with big guns attract a lot of attention, in necromunda nobody would bat an eye at my INQ in plain civilian clothes revolver in hand and so will probably be able to chat with folk about the series of disapearences much easier than Witch Hunter Tyrus or whoever.

Sarison
05-05-2007, 04:32
Yeah, thats the same conclusion i came to with using power armour in the Campaign i GM for. anyone who wanted to use it immediately loses the trust of everyone they work with, as no one likes to have an Inquisitor hovering over them like a Thunderhawk with an afterburner malfunction.

That sounds like it would work, Stouty. any one have any other ideas for control of them in One-Off games?

Sarison
30-05-2007, 05:00
ok, so i retract my previous concurance with Odin, what about the circumstance where Inquisitor S. Jackson puts the bolt pistol to the heretic's head, says something really and pulls the trigger? if the bolt round did not ignite, then it would explode on contact with the guys cranium and most likely stil have the rear end within the barrel.

this would put increase the turnover of marine bolters significantly, and quite possibly tip the tight balance that the Imperium finds itself in right now. This is the future of mankind that we are talking about here, and Odin wishes to feed you all to the genestealers. wil you accept his heresy or follow the pathway of righteousness lit by Inquisitor Sarison?!?!

strambo
30-05-2007, 05:33
you may as well turn marines into guard if u want to tone down there weapons effect.

Inquisitor Maul
30-05-2007, 18:12
you may as well turn marines into guard if u want to tone down there weapons effect.

Marines don't need weapons. He can kill by throwing rocks (or grenades. I once had a Space Marine kill one of my goons just by hitting his head with a grenade (and that was before it went off :wtf: ))

Sabbad
31-05-2007, 13:05
It's interesting that there's a post over on the official Inquisitor board right now arguing bolters and power weapons should be MORE powerful...

Kargush
01-06-2007, 13:43
*snip*But now I have the Codex Maleverbus (Book of Bad Words!) and he doesn't.*snip*

Sounds like a dictionary of swearing! :p On a more serious note, I'm very fond of creating characters. I once had an Inquisitor with a bad **** deamon sword. Trouble was, he couldn't shoot straight, risked falling under the influence of the daemon if he made one bad WP roll, and had no armour on his arms. And that was back in the days when the left arm was almost a given hit location... Only used him once, but had great fun!

Then there is also the "Darth Sidious" type of character. Sure, he has a power weapon. Sure, he has a bolt pistol. But he rarely fights himself. He has his henchmen do it. I seem to recall there being a similar =][= character released in a supplemental publication.

Sabbad
01-06-2007, 14:47
You're thinking of Scarn.

elvenmagi69
09-06-2007, 06:47
they are both fine as they are power sword are like relics shouldnt be handed out like a luck dip to imperial officers.

Kegluneq
15-06-2007, 00:23
Power and bolt weapons should only really be used extensively in missions featuring a lot of NPC characters to mince. It's no fun for the opposing player to have his close combat character minced by a single hit from a bolt. Where enemies are supposed to be cannon fodder, that's ok, but battles with stubbers and force weapons are much more fun, and last rather longer.

If I were to make any changes - I'd reduce the accuracy of bolt weapons (does anything about them say 'accurate' to you?) and make power weapons slightly harder to use. Just enough to make them more realistic without compromising their killiness.

Vladimir Deathblade
21-06-2007, 18:12
ok, so i retract my previous concurance with Odin, what about the circumstance where Inquisitor S. Jackson puts the bolt pistol to the heretic's head, says something really and pulls the trigger? if the bolt round did not ignite, then it would explode on contact with the guys cranium and most likely stil have the rear end within the barrel.

this would put increase the turnover of marine bolters significantly, and quite possibly tip the tight balance that the Imperium finds itself in right now. This is the future of mankind that we are talking about here, and Odin wishes to feed you all to the genestealers. wil you accept his heresy or follow the pathway of righteousness lit by Inquisitor Sarison?!?!

Well, I'm sure I read somewhere that they explode after they enter, (ie, there is a delay between impct and explosion) solving that problem. Though I can't remember where that was...

As to tonging them down, give the guys with the good kit harder jobs! It's up to the players to limit their efectivness.