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TheWarSmith
19-04-2007, 19:22
Impact hits are "distributed like shooting", so when a chariot hits a beast herd and does 4 impact hits, are they put into ungors first, as that would be how it's done if it were shooting?

WLBjork
19-04-2007, 20:03
Yep, just like it won't hit a character if there's >5 rank and file models in the unit.

Vattendroppe
19-04-2007, 20:20
As a quite clear rule question; yes they would.

I can imagine this going together logically also, since I imagine the ungors runs first into charges/when charged only to at the very last moment be outsprinted by the gors when chargin or when charged they gors just stays behind until the enemy is on top of them and then jump forward.

ZeroTwentythree
19-04-2007, 21:26
Someday I'm going to buy some beastman figures and model some gors wielding ungors like shields.

NakedFisherman
19-04-2007, 22:29
Keep in mind that casualties normally come from the fighting rank, though.

I've thought about this before to myself. Suppose the casualties do fall on the Ungor. This means the casualties are not removed from the fighting rank unless Ungor were in the fighting rank.

Now, a Giant rolls a Jumps up and Down result on a Spearmen unit. Do the casualties fall among the front rank, or are they simply pulled from the back like normal shooting?

What is the exact wording for the Ungor missile shield special rule? I'm not at home and can't check.

Belerophon709
19-04-2007, 22:29
Someday I'm going to buy some beastman figures and model some gors wielding ungors like shields.

Sigged! :D

Chicago Slim
19-04-2007, 22:50
What is the exact wording for the Ungor missile shield special rule? I'm not at home and can't check.

Don't have the exact wording, either, but my memory of it is that hits from shooting are distributed to ungors first, and hit gors only if there are more hits from shooting than ungors to take them.

Note that it's hits, not wounds. Assuming my memory isn't faulty.

TKitch
20-04-2007, 04:34
that's the gist of it slim.

NakedFisherman
20-04-2007, 19:56
So when a Giant rolls a Jump up and Down result, where do the casualties fall on a unit of Spearmen?

Sherlocko
20-04-2007, 20:49
Someday I'm going to buy some beastman figures and model some gors wielding ungors like shields.

I have a foe-render wich is modelled in that fashion. :)

And I find it to weird to make the impact hits go onto ungors. You shall still pick from fighting rank, plus all wound suffered because of impact hits make you lose attack back, so it is to freaking weird.

TheWarSmith
20-04-2007, 20:53
beast herds are rules oddities by nature. Try casting green fire on them and look at the puzzling look on peoples' faces.

Martyr
20-04-2007, 20:55
...What is the exact wording for the Ungor missile shield special rule? I'm not at home and can't check.

Exact wording: (page 19 of the BoC army book) "Beasmen Herds are a mix of Gors and Ungors, to which the following special rules apply:

All shooting hits against the unit are allocated against Ungors first, and only when each Ungor has been hit once are hits allocated against Gors (who tend to use the smaller kin as living shields).

Continue to distribute missile hits in this matter until they have all been allocated. Once hits have been allocated, make rolls to wound as normal."

:D

-Martyr

Vattendroppe
20-04-2007, 20:58
Exact wording: (page 19 of the BoC army book) "Beasmen Herds are a mix of Gors and Ungors, to which the following special rules apply:

All shooting hits against the unit are allocated against Ungors first, and only when each Ungor has been hit once are hits allocated against Gors (who tend to use the smaller kin as living shields).

:D

-Martyr

And that makes everything very clear rule-wise.

Negativemoney
20-04-2007, 21:29
All shooting hits against the unit are allocated against Ungors first, and only when each Ungor has been hit once are hits allocated against Gors (who tend to use the smaller kin as living shields).


So does that mean that Gors can get a +1 AS for HW/ungor(shield)? :cheese:

Martyr
20-04-2007, 21:50
So does that mean that Gors can get a +1 AS for HW/ungor(shield)? :cheese:

lol that would be awesome! That would give me a reason to convert my models to ZeroTwentythree's specifications!


-Martyr

Vattendroppe
21-04-2007, 07:33
So does that mean that Gors can get a +1 AS for HW/ungor(shield)? :cheese:

Probably, but only against attacks that are distributed like shooting this, such lika chariots impact hits and some of the giant attacks.

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 11:53
Hmm.
I would like to point out that there is an important difference between :

"All shootings hits are allocated against Ungors first"
Emphasis on shooting hits

and
"Impact hits are distributed like shooting hits

Emphasis on distributed

Vattendroppe
21-04-2007, 11:56
Hmm.
I would like to point out that there is an important difference between :

"All shootings hits are allocated against Ungors first"
Emphasis on shooting hits

and
"Impact hits are distributed like shooting hits

Emphasis on distributed

But there's no doubt that shooting hits are distrubuted to the ungors first.

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 12:02
Of course, but Impact hits are not shooting hits.
They are distributed in the same way.

All shooting hits is not the same as hits distributed in the same way as shooting.
As someone pointed out some Giant combat hits are distributed in the same way as shooting. This does not make those hits missile shots.

Vattendroppe
21-04-2007, 12:16
Ofcourse not, but since shooting hits hits ungors first and impact hits and such are distrubuted in the EXACT same way there is little room for discussion IMO.

They're not the same, they just hit in the same way. Impact hits should obviously hit ungors first.

Festus
21-04-2007, 12:30
As someone pointed out some Giant combat hits are distributed in the same way as shooting. This does not make those hits missile shots.
Wel well well, you took your own momentum here: Shooting hits are not necessarily missile hits :)

I don't think that this is in any way ambiguous: Hits which are distributed like shooting hits will be handled exactly like shooting hits as far as distibution is concerned. They may or may not be handled differently afterwards (Like Wounding - Banshee, etc.).

This is pretty much watertight.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 18:03
Well, when a new FAQ is printed for Beasts, it would probably interpret it as Impact hits on the Gors since the old FAQ interpreted it this way [as a player has just told me].

sds661
22-04-2007, 13:32
Interesting discussion. Had a game not long ago where crucial combats hinged on these rules. I would suggest that the original intent of the rule is that with respect to distributing impact hits onto CHARACTERS we should distribute as shooting. That is, you can't direct all your impact hits onto an unfortunate character in the front rank. However I do have to agree that the wording of the rules seems to allow beast herds to use their ability here, whether or not that was the intention.

Martyr
25-04-2007, 18:32
Well, when a new FAQ is printed for Beasts, it would probably interpret it as Impact hits on the Gors since the old FAQ interpreted it this way [as a player has just told me].

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but since when do FAQ's supercede what the rulebook clearly states? Maybe I'm not understanding what the mix up is with this rule. Not trying to sound like an ass, but to me it's stated very clearly that shooting hits whether they are actual shots from a crossbow, pistol, rifle, or bow or distributed like shots which would make them distributed like shots from a crossbow, pistol, rifle, or bow would go toward the ungors FIRST and THEN to the Gors. If I'm not seeing something here please enlighten me.

-Martyr

Atrahasis
25-04-2007, 18:40
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but since when do FAQ's supercede what the rulebook clearly states?Since always. GW have no concept of maintaining a tidy ruleset.

Their idea of RAW (not issuing FAQs unless a point was unclear to the point of being unplayable) didn't last beyond the first FAQ issued under that policy.

Martyr
25-04-2007, 18:55
Well that's depressing, then maybe I'll write a new rulebook that has 1 page and it says, "Chaos has finally over taken the entire world, you all lose unless you play Chaos. Happy Gaming"


-Martyr

Sherlocko
25-04-2007, 20:31
Just curious, do you play the khorne-frenzy RAW or after the FAQ(no extra attacks for steeds)? And do you think chaos is broken or something...?

Atrahasis
25-04-2007, 20:33
Just curious, do you play the khorne-frenzy RAW or after the FAQ(no extra attacks for steeds)?The FAQ agrees with RAW.

Masque
25-04-2007, 20:34
Just curious, do you play the khorne-frenzy RAW or after the FAQ(no extra attacks for steeds)? And do you think chaos is broken or something...?

RAW and after the FAQ are the same in this case. Aren't they? HoC book says steeds don't get the extra attack.

Martyr
25-04-2007, 20:36
I dont think chaos is broken at all. I honestly think Chaos as somewhat gotten the shaft when it comes to a few heres and theres. We have no ranged units aside from spell casters and our 1 artilliary piece which has the chance of eating it's own army.


-Martyr

Chicago Slim
25-04-2007, 23:50
GW have no concept of maintaining a tidy ruleset.

Their idea of RAW (not issuing FAQs unless a point was unclear to the point of being unplayable) didn't last beyond the first FAQ issued under that policy.

I think that GW has set themselves a goal, in the current 7th edition, that the rules shouldn't substantially change until the next edition. If true, this will make me very glad: by the end of 6th ed, it was very difficult to keep track of all the rules updates, patches, and optional rules, from various White Dwarf issues and a half dozen supplements.

So far, I haven't seen anything that I think belies this effort. Out of curiosity, which specific FAQ issue do you think change an otherwise functional rule?

Baindread
26-04-2007, 02:55
I think that GW has set themselves a goal, in the current 7th edition, that the rules shouldn't substantially change until the next edition. If true, this will make me very glad: by the end of 6th ed, it was very difficult to keep track of all the rules updates, patches, and optional rules, from various White Dwarf issues and a half dozen supplements.

So far, I haven't seen anything that I think belies this effort. Out of curiosity, which specific FAQ issue do you think change an otherwise functional rule?

I think they will keep that line of reasoning for another year or so before they start messing things up again ;)

night2501
26-04-2007, 04:58
please stop this nonsesnse...
whe na chariot does impact hits you take the downs form the fron rank, and loose atacks, if the gors are in the front rank they die because of the chariot charging simple as that, if not you would hace hte issue of not losing atack when fighting a charriot, something that is completly unintended ...
also as they hav eempatized before, there is a diference betwen "allocate" and "distribute", the later makes reference to the presence of champion or characters, the first have little to do with it...
for example you have a unit of 5 ungors and 3 gors plus a hero, and you hit 8 times, let`s say you "allocate" enough shots to kill the 5 ungors, and have 3 hits left, you then "distribute" them among the unit and the hero.
as you can see allocate and distribute ar ediferent things, so stop mesing with the rules around, is quite clear, both, the intention and the wording, if a chariot charge the herd the gors take the hits...

Vattendroppe
26-04-2007, 06:21
please stop this nonsesnse... ...

Problem is that since there's no FAQ the RAW speaks differently. Probably it'll be a FAQ released soon that deals with this manner though.

Masque
26-04-2007, 08:11
soon

This word almost made me laugh. GW moves glacially slow when it comes to FAQs and errata.

Jester007
26-04-2007, 08:14
First off, leave the poor beasties alone! They kinda got nerfed hard in version 7 when you now need 5 wide for a rank. I have seen a few cases where they were not able to rank up to 5.

But as to this "allocated" and "distributing" arguement. Both words are practically the same thing. The reason why the make the statement "distributed like shooting" is so that there will be no confusion as to what models are elligible targets to be hit. Cause as someone said before, a chariot impacting into a unit is in no way a shooting attack. However, to prevent the owning player of the chariot from declaring that his impact hits are all going on the opposing players general (because more than likely the chariot will be in base to base with a character if there is one in the unit), the rules tell you how to handle the hits so that you don't have "assasin chariots".

Well, you guys take care. Cya!

Got Squig?

Vattendroppe
26-04-2007, 12:32
This word almost made me laugh. GW moves glacially slow when it comes to FAQs and errata.

Just always try to keep optimistic ;)