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DeathlessDraich
20-04-2007, 14:48
If you are aware of this rule, how have you interpreted it?
Skaven pg 26 Cavalry base: "This also explains their two attacks. The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot be singled out as targets by enemy shooters because they are the same size as other Skaven around them"

Thank you for any contributions.

Angelwing
20-04-2007, 14:53
I believe this refers to warpfire throwers and ratling guns being attached to parent units, not jezzails. Until 7th ed changed it...

DeathlessDraich
20-04-2007, 14:58
No, it's a Jezzails specific rule and under Jezzails and not the Ratling gun.

Each time I've shown it to players they confess to have never read it!

Angelwing
20-04-2007, 15:01
must find my army book. Is it something to do with 6th ed targeting rules?
*scurries to find books*

Just remembered, books are behind a load of stuff that I cant move yet (I am decorating..)
Bah. this will have to wait.

WLBjork
20-04-2007, 17:32
I think it is, back when characters within X" of a US5+ regiment of the same size (model wise) couldn't be targetted.

Cavalry was classed as "bigger than man sized", so units on Cavalry bases near a regiment on Infantry bases was strictly bigger. Jezzails came on a Cavalry base, but weren't as big as Cavalry, so this was a protective rule for them.

In 7th edn. of course, all models are fair game, so the rule has no effect.

Falkman
20-04-2007, 17:54
It says the only difference from normal cavalry is that they can't be singled out.
If that is the only exception from other cavalry, then by RAW shouldn't spells like The Beast cowers and the like work on them?

Festus
20-04-2007, 17:55
Hi
It is, back when characters within X" of a US5+ regiment of the same size (model wise) couldn't be targetted.

Cavalry was classed as "bigger than man sized", so units on Cavalry bases near a regiment on Infantry bases was strictly bigger. Jezzails came on a Cavalry base, but weren't as big as Cavalry, so this was a protective rule for them.

In 7th edn. of course, all models are fair game, so the rule has no effect.
Fully correct.

And te Jezzails are a skirmishing unit nonetheless, and so the rule never applied to them. it was only Weapon Teams.

Festus

TheWarSmith
20-04-2007, 18:01
how would you ever "single out" a jezzail anyway? I suppose if somehow there was only 1 left(that never ever happens) that wasn't fleeing?

this seems to really only apply to weapon teams, which now get shafted by new 7th edition targeting rules.

Cragspyder
20-04-2007, 18:29
Well, perhaps it was with the old rules when infantry, cavalry, and large monsters were all different sizes. You could shoot at Cavalry behind infantry even if the archers were on level ground back then. This was clarifiying that Jezzails follow many of the rules for Cavalry but are still infantry sized for purposes of shooting at them, meaning you can't if they are behind a unit of infantry.

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 10:44
I think it is, back when characters within X" of a US5+ regiment of the same size (model wise) couldn't be targetted.

Cavalry was classed as "bigger than man sized", so units on Cavalry bases near a regiment on Infantry bases was strictly bigger. Jezzails came on a Cavalry base, but weren't as big as Cavalry, so this was a protective rule for them.

In 7th edn. of course, all models are fair game, so the rule has no effect.

"protective rule for them". Not sure whether you've inadvertently mixed things up here.
Jezzails are not characters.
Under 6th rules characters were protected by units. Cavalry were not protected by infantry.


It says the only difference from normal cavalry is that they can't be singled out.
If that is the only exception from other cavalry, then by RAW shouldn't spells like The Beast cowers and the like work on them?

Interesting point. Technically Beast Cowers can be cast on Jezzails. Fortunately it affects only "creatures but not their riders".
You'll probably agree that even though man sized rats are creatures [and so is Man technically], the word 'creature' is of a bestial disposition.


how would you ever "single out" a jezzail anyway? I suppose if somehow there was only 1 left(that never ever happens) that wasn't fleeing?

this seems to really only apply to weapon teams, which now get shafted by new 7th edition targeting rules.

*It's worse than that WarSmith - "they cannot be singled out as targets".
"They" and not "a model" is used here.

The whole unit of Jezzails (they) cannot be singled out as targets.
If more than 1 unit can be targetted then this statement has some meaning. However only 1 unit can ever be targetted by a single volley of shooting. Contradictory rule?

Taking this rule as RAW, it will be impossible to shoot Jezzails! I don't think any player would agree to this, not even a Skaven player but the rules have to be correctly interpreted and adhered to. Maybe it's a typo!:p


The statement is taken from Jezzails and not weapons teams which comes later in the rules and is used with reference to characters.


Well, perhaps it was with the old rules when infantry, cavalry, and large monsters were all different sizes. You could shoot at Cavalry behind infantry even if the archers were on level ground back then. This was clarifiying that Jezzails follow many of the rules for Cavalry but are still infantry sized for purposes of shooting at them, meaning you can't if they are behind a unit of infantry.

I take it you mean characters in the last statement which was a rule in the 6th ed.


Hi
Fully correct.

And the Jezzails are a skirmishing unit nonetheless, and so the rule never applied to them. it was only Weapon Teams.

Festus

The statement is taken from Jezzails and not weapons teams which comes later in the rules and is used with reference to characters.
Two distinct rules. See above*

Festus
21-04-2007, 11:32
Oh oh, DDraich, I really fear for your sanity!

...or - on second thoughts - maybe not :D

Festus

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 13:21
LOL! Festus. No Fear test needed. I've always thought you were ItP.

T10
21-04-2007, 16:26
If you are aware of this rule, how have you interpreted it?
Skaven pg 26 Cavalry base: "This also explains their two attacks. The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot be singled out as targets by enemy shooters because they are the same size as other Skaven around them"

Thank you for any contributions.The rule seems to imply that a) they can never be fired at and b) they always have "other" Skaven around them.

Unless taken in the context of the now redundant rule providing weapon's teams the same protection as individual characters it is in no way practical to implement.

How do you determine whether there are enough skaven positioned correctly to be "around" the Jezzails? Is there a minimum number? Do they form a full circle? Is it illegal to kill the other skaven, since that would result in not enough "other skaven" being around? Do enemy skaven count? The questions are endless, as witnessed by my feverishly scribbled notes and concept scetches I have pinned on the walls of my innermost secret hobby room (the one I use for serious gaming and plotting the downfall of Man in preparation of the coming of the Other Skaven).

I seriously suspect GW put that in there to anger us, and I am falling willingly into their baited trap!

-T10

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 16:54
Very well thought of points, T10.

Do you think the rule should just be ignored?
Would you accept a dice-off from a Skaven player who insists on enforcing this rule somehow?

Masque
21-04-2007, 17:06
Most people are reading the rule like this:

'(The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot) (be singled out as targets by enemy shooters) (because they are the same size as other Skaven around them.)'

Here's a RAW interpretation of that rule that doesn't matter whether you're playing 6th or 7th edition:

'(The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot) (be singled out as targets by enemy shooters because they are the same size as other Skaven around them.)'

Now that I've written that I don't know if it's going to convey what I'm trying to say. Basically, people are reading it as if the 'because' is the the reason they 'cannot' as opposed to reading as if the 'because' was part of the thing you 'cannot' do. In other words, they could be 'singled out as targets' as long as it wasn't 'because they are the same size'.

Of course nothing actually can be targetted for that reason, but that's not technically important.

Does that make any sense? If anyone understands what I'm trying to say and can think of a way to say it better, please do.

T10
21-04-2007, 17:16
Very well thought of points, T10.

Do you think the rule should just be ignored?
Would you accept a dice-off from a Skaven player who insists on enforcing this rule somehow?

I'd ask him how he intended to fulfill the full implications of the rule and not just the narrow part that suits him, requiring him to comply with the regular rules where the jezzail rules fail to specify other.

I'm pretty sure I'll never have the opportunity to put this to the test, though.

Should this rule be ignored? Yes.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
21-04-2007, 17:31
'(The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot) (be singled out as targets by enemy shooters because they are the same size as other Skaven around them.)'

Now that I've written that I don't know if it's going to convey what I'm trying to say. Basically, people are reading it as if the 'because' is the the reason they 'cannot' as opposed to reading as if the 'because' was part of the thing you 'cannot' do. In other words, they could be 'singled out as targets' as long as it wasn't 'because they are the same size'.
.

I don't think I've understood this but you expected it. :p
You have chosen a different subject to the statement ? i.e.
They are different from normal cavalry because they are the same size etc
instead of
They cannot be targetted because they are the same size etc

In both cases it still seems they cannot be targetted. I don't think it solves the problem.

BTW: Have you got neighbours called Flanders in Springfield?:p

T10:
Yes, you're right as usual in the way it should be addressed in real play.

Another player just gave me another interpretation:
"They" refers to the 2 rats in the Jezzail model i.e. each rat cannot be targetted individually but the whole Jezzail model should be targetted. Maybe this was the intention but it came across very poorly if so.

Masque
21-04-2007, 17:54
I don't think I've understood this but you expected it. :p
You have chosen a different subject to the statement ? i.e.
They are different from normal cavalry because they are the same size etc
instead of
They cannot be targetted because they are the same size etc

In both cases it still seems they cannot be targetted. I don't think it solves the problem.

I'm suggesting that you could read the real rule:

'The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot be singled out as targets by enemy shooters because they are the same size as other Skaven around them.'

...in a way that was exactly equivalent to this:

The only difference from normal cavalry is that they can be singled out as targets by enemy shooters for any reason other than that they are the same size as other Skaven around them.

See how that's a crazy way to read it but still totally legitimate?


BTW: Have you got neighbours called Flanders in Springfield?:p

A quick check of the phone book confirms your suspicion.

NakedFisherman
21-04-2007, 20:30
It's a copy and paste error of the Cavalry base special rule, I think.

monstallion
21-04-2007, 20:46
This would have been a good point to bring up in the last addition as you may have been able to screen Jezzails with other units, why didn't I see this then:cries: I would have taken the cries of :cheese:

Due to the change in the targeting rules nothing will now come of this, although it is a good example of when cut and paste should not be used.
Hope they keep this in mind for the next Skaven book.

JonnyTHM
21-04-2007, 21:49
Did no one consider the possibility that since the rule "cavalry base" appears twice, once for jezzails and once for weapon teams, and that the rules section only would have worked for weapon teams (where it's absent) that maybe it was just a cut & paste error where the extra section was just kept in the wrong area?

DeathlessDraich
22-04-2007, 11:34
Probably the source of the error JonnyTHM as NF pointed out.

NF: If that pic in your avatar is real I'm taking the first flight to Westlake! Hubbab Hubba:p