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View Full Version : Ogres - some basic choices: advice wanted



leonmallett
23-04-2007, 15:07
Hi folks. Happy birthday to me, I have just received an OK battalion box and a box of bulls amongst other stuff from my other half.

The main questions I have (not having played WFB in years, but having the intention to start this year):
1. I am constructing a unit of 6 Bulls with ironfists; I plan on taking standard and champion, but is the Bellower really needed? Also for this unit I am planning on taking light armour to add to the shield benefit from the ironfists - wise idea or waste of time/points?

2. By adding a standard, a Bellower and a wee bit of conversion work I plan on a unit of 6 Ironguts in two ranks. Should I do this this or just use a unit of 4 (maybe without bellower) and keep the other two models for my second Bulls unit (increasing that from 4 to 6; see below)?

3. I am aiming to utilise Gnoblars in a unit 5 wide, 5 ranks deep - reasonable?

4. I plan on using the Leadbelchers in two units of 2 - or should they just be combined into a unit 4?

5. The second unit of 4 Bulls will have Ogre Clubs just for a bit of variety as well as the extra armour modifier. I was thinking of not bothering with the light armour for this unit - yea or nay? Take standard and champion? Wasn't thinking of taking a Bellower with these guys - thoughts?

6. I am thinking of filling the army out with a Butcher, a Bruiser, maybe a pair of Maneaters and a Slavegiant, maybe some more bulls or Gnobalsrs, aiming for around 2000 pts total - thoughts?

Cheers folks.

Avian
23-04-2007, 15:28
1. I am constructing a unit of 6 Bulls with ironfists; I plan on taking standard and champion, but is the Bellower really needed? Also for this unit I am planning on taking light armour to add to the shield benefit from the ironfists - wise idea or waste of time/points?
Bulls tend to do best in units of 3-4, or more if you tend to use them as a missile screen (it is otherwise nearly always better to start a new unit than increase an ogre unit beyond 4 models). Both additional hand weapons and bellowers are quite good options, depending on how you intend to use them. If you intend to make them a combat unit, then a standard is also good. Champions are a waste of points and so is light armour. Ironfists are basically something you spend a few extra points on because you think they look nice. They are not a cost-effective upgrade.



2. By adding a standard, a Bellower and a wee bit of conversion work I plan on a unit of 6 Ironguts in two ranks. Should I do this this or just use a unit of 4 (maybe without bellower) and keep the other two models for my second Bulls unit (increasing that from 4 to 6; see below)?
It is a complete waste to place three Ironguts in a rear rank where they cannot attack. ANY Ogre in a rear rank is dubious, expensive ogres doubly so.



3. I am aiming to utilise Gnoblars in a unit 5 wide, 5 ranks deep - reasonable?
That is a good size for them. You can get by with 20 as well, though they are cheap so a few extra as backup is not a bad idea.



4. I plan on using the Leadbelchers in two units of 2 - or should they just be combined into a unit 4?
A unit of 4 is definitely worse than two units of 2. It is more vulnerable to panic (including that caused by misfires), more difficult to manoeuvre and less flexible in what you wish to shoot at.



5. The second unit of 4 Bulls will have Ogre Clubs just for a bit of variety as well as the extra armour modifier. I was thinking of not bothering with the light armour for this unit - yea or nay? Take standard and champion? Wasn't thinking of taking a Bellower with these guys - thoughts?
Light armour is ALWAYS a waste, as are champions for Bulls, as mentioned above. Bellowers should definitely be bought before any other command option. As a rule of thumb, units left as support do well with basic clubs and a bellower, while any unit you intend to fight with should get AHWs and a standard as well.



6. I am thinking of filling the army out with a Butcher, a Bruiser, maybe a pair of Maneaters and a Slavegiant, maybe some more bulls or Gnobalsrs, aiming for around 2000 pts total - thoughts?
Both Maneaters and a Giant results in a very small army. For a beginning Ogre army I would aim to get numbers first and foremost, with a lot of Bulls (the workhorses of the army) and Ironguts (the basic fighters) in units of 3-4 as these are the most cost-effective ogres you get. Once you get a decent number of these (say, about 20 in total) you can add more specialised models.


See also my Ogre tactics page (link in signature).

leonmallett
23-04-2007, 15:33
Cheers for the advice. Models clipped from spures in bags awaiting assembly, so the quick feedback is appreciated.

Peril
23-04-2007, 21:24
I actually like having the option with Ironfists and Light Armor to have a 4+ save. It just depends on what you are fighting. I would either run Bull/Irongut units at 3 or 4. I ALWAYS take bellowers. I hate the points cost, but because of the leadership issues and close margin of victory in combat, I always find them useful. Always.

Don't bother with 2nd rank Ogres. You cannot lap anymore, and a full second rank is extremely expensive.

I never ran Gnoblars more than 20, but they are cheap enough that 25 will be fine.

2 Leadbelchers are ace. They can move up and shoot, then flee the charge, rally and reload, repeat. They are also small enough to use as flank chargers since they they still break rank. I would never run them in larger units. I still pony up for the bellowers though.

If you are not taking Ironfists, don't take Light Armor.

Maneaters can be used as 2-man flanker units like the Belchers. Give them Cathayan Longswords and they are offensively equivalent to a Bruiser. I also ran a unit of 3 with a Battle Standard, since they are Stubborn. 16 WS5 S5 Armor Piercing Attacks will roll nearly anything.

Baindread
24-04-2007, 00:23
(including that caused by misfires)


Isn't it a new rule in 7th ed that only enemy missile damage can cause panic?

Dtrik
24-04-2007, 00:55
MSU all the way.

Big blocks of ogres are unwieldy and manouverability is your best friend so try to keep your units small and cheap. Most players will agree that upgrades on basic bull units is a waste as bulls are best suited as flankers and screens for your more hitty ironguts. Points used for upgrades would be better spent on more ogres. Just a note, if you have a spare body left over CONVERT A BUTCHER! Butchers are good fighters and utilize Gut Magic which is pretty outstanding, able to turn hard units into unkillable monstrosities (Trollguts!!!).

I recently got a battallion and with the purchase of a tyrant and some greenstuff I made a 1000point list. As long as you are creative with conversions a 2000pt force can be made with 2 battallion, a very cost affective army indeed! Good luck with the ogres, if you need any further advice I recommend www.theogrestronghold.com a great community!

Catferret
24-04-2007, 01:13
I'm also just starting up an ogre army and have been told similar things. Lots of small units. Additional Hand Weapons on Bulls seems to be the way to go.

I had been told to take Champions and no Standard or Bellower. I can see the argument for Bellowers but reckon the Standard is a 100vp giveaway to your opponent.

Which Characters were you taking out of curiosity? I was going to try a Tyrant, Butcher and Hunter at 2000pts.

Shimmergloom
24-04-2007, 04:40
Isn't it a new rule in 7th ed that only enemy missile damage can cause panic?

No. There's actually a catch all rule that states that if anything that is not listed in the list of things that cause panic, causes 25% casualties, you take an immediate panic test.

So fanatics, black orcs hurting their own units, salamanders eating skinks and leadbelchers misfiring all cause panic tests if 25% of the unit is killed.

Only war machines are immune to this.

Avian
24-04-2007, 14:17
I had been told to take Champions and no Standard or Bellower. I can see the argument for Bellowers but reckon the Standard is a 100vp giveaway to your opponent.
If you are planning on losing combats with Ogres you are doing it wrong anyway. Ogres need to win combats and 20 pts for +1 CR is quite good value for the cost.

Champions are generally hopelessly bad value for the points, especially on Bulls. Heck, you could spend the 20 pts you pay to give ONE Ogre +1 attack on additional hand weapons instead, giving FIVE Ogres +1 attack.

Catferret
25-04-2007, 01:23
If you are planning on losing combats with Ogres you are doing it wrong anyway. Ogres need to win combats and 20 pts for +1 CR is quite good value for the cost.

Champions are generally hopelessly bad value for the points, especially on Bulls. Heck, you could spend the 20 pts you pay to give ONE Ogre +1 attack on additional hand weapons instead, giving FIVE Ogres +1 attack.

I'm fairly pessimistic and always allow for poor dice rolls. Standards aren't going to do me any favours. An extra Attack might. Suppose I could buy a Lookout Gnoblar for the unit with my Butcher in. I shall have to post my own army list rather than hijacking this thread. Apologies to the original poster!

leonmallett
25-04-2007, 07:38
No apologies necessary. You have made me think about lookout Gnoblars though - yay or nay?

SevenSins
25-04-2007, 07:41
what about the scraplauncher? any good or just fun?

Scythe
25-04-2007, 09:25
I'm fairly pessimistic and always allow for poor dice rolls. Standards aren't going to do me any favours.

Look at it this way: an extra attack is a potential extra point of combat resolution, were a standard is a garanteed extra point of combat resolution.

Avian
25-04-2007, 10:14
I'm fairly pessimistic and always allow for poor dice rolls. Standards aren't going to do me any favours. An extra Attack might.
I fail to see the logic. In most cases, the extra attack on Bulls is 1/4 of a point of CR, while a standard is 1 point of CR all the time, for the same cost. I don't know what kind of probability analysis you are running, but it seems mighty flawed to me.



lookout Gnoblars though - yay or nay?
Lookout Gnobbos are okay. Few armies have cannons (the things Look Out, Sir rolls have an effect against), so a lot of the time they are not necessary, but against Empire and Dwarfs they can be very handy.



what about the scraplauncher? any good or just fun?
Quite useful if your opponent cannot get S7+ missile weapons (or fast-moving S7+ models), useless at any other time.

Sanjuro
25-04-2007, 10:23
I fail to see the logic. In most cases, the extra attack on Bulls is 1/4 of a point of CR, while a standard is 1 point of CR all the time, for the same cost. I don't know what kind of probability analysis you are running, but it seems mighty flawed to me.


He is probably accounting for those cases when you whiff your rolls completely and as a result lose the combat and give away an extra 100 vp for the banner as a result.

damiengore
25-04-2007, 11:38
I'm going to rebuttle Avians dislike of champions.

The +1 Attack for the Crushers is not the real reason you pay 20 points for him, the real reason is for challenging. Case in point I played 3 games at a tourney two weeks ago, in everygame my combat units (4 IG's and 4 bulls respectively) that were not accompanied by the tyrant suffered horribly under Orc champions/heros.
Sure I got the charge and sure I killed 5 or more models but the heros/champion invariably inflicted 2 or more wounds (savage orcs and biguns). The few points these champions contributed to the combat caused me to lose several fights and subsequently battles.

Now Orc champions are good fighters (WS 4 and 3 or 4 S 5 attacks can hurt!) compared to most other races champions but even a great sword champion or swordmaster champion could ruin your day.

IMO Ogres need every point of CR they can get and directing attacks against a champion can result in wasted Overkill. With a crusher or gutlord you can preserve your CR and get rid of that nasty champion at the same time, which effectively does double duty for your CR, well worth 20 points.

Obviously a gutlord is a better investment than a crusher and for that reason I generally put my tyrant or bruiser with the bulls and skip the crusher.

My final point is that for me any unit I expect to fight and win on it's own gets a full command and any weapon upgrades that are cost effective (Avian is totally right, light armour isn't worth the cost). I also prefer units of 5 for a fighting unit as it reduces the risk of a panic test and generally ensures a full fighting front (4 models) for most of the game.

Avian
25-04-2007, 12:12
IMO Ogres need every point of CR they can get and directing attacks against a champion can result in wasted Overkill. With a crusher or gutlord you can preserve your CR and get rid of that nasty champion at the same time, which effectively does double duty for your CR, well worth 20 points.
I agree that this is an advantage, I just disagree that it is a worthwhile advantage. :p Statistically the advantage is quite small and my experience supports this. It was very rare that being able to absorb more damage actually made a meaningful difference.

Catferret
25-04-2007, 12:16
My reasoning behind extra attacks and use of champions is as follows:

Champion to accept challenges and hopefully remove their model. Many attacks from the rest of the unit to at least remove opponent's front rank. They can't fight back any more. Ogres live! Woo!

Peril
25-04-2007, 21:12
Yeah, if there is no Ogre character to challenge with, a Champion will do that for you. Not the most efficient use of points, but you are correct that it will help against enemy champions.

Banners are still very good though. Ogres need all the extra CR they can get. If you lose a banner, you can still get it back later by defeating the unit that took it.

Dtrik
25-04-2007, 23:47
Wait a second...someone said they DON'T take bellowers?!?!? I use bellowers in all my ogre units primarily because sometimes its advantageous to bait and flee with your bulls especially and the rally bonus really really helps! I use standards in my gut units simply because they are usually the units that I slam head on into enemy troops and need the extra CR; whereas my bulls are usually used in more expendable roles and the 100vps for giving away a standard poses too serious of a risk. As for champions, I have to agree with Avian, although they are useful for challenges its surely not worth it for the points. With OK you need as many ogres as you can get, if you ever have spare points first consider where you can put more ogres before you consider unit upgrades.