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BPK
24-04-2007, 00:24
Are they still leagal? I heard that their legal warband status had been revoked because they were just "too good" - ps any advice on choosinfg a warband, apart from the usual max out on heroes etc.

TKitch
25-04-2007, 00:03
they are no longer official, sadly.

mainly because they are entirely too easy to cheese out.

Best starting warband? 5 heroes, 4 shadow walkers. All w Longbows and whatever else you can afford. (you can get 10, I think, if you got with all two daggers and longbows on everyone.)

Zero2Hero-dk
07-06-2008, 14:31
Regarding the Shadow warrior skill "Powerfull Build". Do the hero get a choice of the strength skills at the moment Powerfull build is chosen ? or is it an individual skill which is attained before being able to take the strength skills ?

This is a question I've been asking my self since there's no benefit from the powerfull build skill in it self other than the future skills chosen in strength skills.

Perhaps it's a bit offtopic - but since I can't post threads yet I posted it here :-P

-Zero2Hero

BigRob
07-06-2008, 20:32
Hello,

Sadly Shadow Warriors are an unofficial warband now. Thats only really important at events, your mates may or may not let you play depending on how competetive your group gets. Shadow Warriors are very very good in the right situation. You move faster, are betetr at fighting and shooting, Have great I for climing and hiding and you get elfbows off the bat.

People tend to castle up and unleash mighty firepower, climbing high and shooting you apart. Sneaky skills let you hide and shoot, which means you can shoot away without being shot. Basically, excellent warband.

As for the strength skills and powerful build, Powerful build is a skill you take. Once you've taken it as your skill advance, your next skill could be chosen from the strength catagory if you want to, so yes it is a skill that leads to other skills. Looks bad at first since you could be taking more shooting skills, but the strength skills really help out with combat as well (like Strongman :D )

Asp
08-06-2008, 02:39
Bigrob is correct.

My personal oppinion of Shadow Warriors is that they will ruin a campaign faster than the blink of an eye.

If you want to go ahead and play elves anyway, consider some of the following drawbacks, though not necessarily in tandem:

- Max T3
- No Strength skills (ever)
- Max 10 members (a little unrealistic)
- Higher recruitment costs for henchmen
- No shooting from hiding skills

Alltaken
09-06-2008, 22:25
Well shadow warriors do get pretty powered up if they get New Skill twice or thrice. I mean they're hell expensive, they have really limited weapon options 0 drugs, and they are pretty lousy in close combat. Powerfull build ensures you spend on LV+ in vain, and regularly you'd afterwards be choosing strongman and lightning reflexes. It can become great, but they're full of beggining XP and other factors. I find them pretty well balanced

Alltaken
10-06-2008, 22:46
My bad, I just made a warband with 9 units 4 elfbows and 5 longbows. 8 shots at 4 BS and 1 at 5 is pretty nasty for a starter warband. Obviously that's 0 CC, butwho cares you can still charge 4 units against the bold survivers each probably.

Asp
11-06-2008, 01:00
yes exactly.

they are the most overpowered warband released to date.

Zero2Hero-dk
11-06-2008, 10:00
My bad, I just made a warband with 9 units 4 elfbows and 5 longbows. 8 shots at 4 BS and 1 at 5 is pretty nasty for a starter warband. Obviously that's 0 CC, butwho cares you can still charge 4 units against the bold survivers each probably.

As a starting warband and with 500gc to purchase ?

I've just tried to create the same and, sadly, you're not able to get that kind of start setup for Shadow warriors.

Is this rooster for a midway campaign ? I got a bit confused. Shadow warriors are WAY more expencive than that set up - taken into consideration that one single elf bow is 35gc and a shadow warrior henchman is 35gc aswell.

I made it possible to make a warband consisting of the shadow master, one shadow walker and 7x shadow warrior henchmen with long bows. This is ofcourse also beardy as hell but it's no where near possible to get a start set up with 4 elf bows and 5 long bows

This is simply not possible

Alltaken
11-06-2008, 13:41
true I was using excel to create my bands, makes it a lot easier to calculate on cash flow. A) I was using my marienburg sketch sheet probably, so the extra 100 gc could have been the reason or B) only the master has elf bow and all the rest have longbows only.
Well that leaves 30 gc dangling there. Or remove a warrior and place 3 elfbows with 20 remaining gc. Which could help you on the selling chart or not?

This is the only warband on which I woudln't probably buy the caster at first. If you can get that magic that allows you to screen your warriors with a mist you're pretty much done.
Still.

BigRob
11-06-2008, 15:21
Heroes:
Shadow Master: Elf Bow
Shadow Weaver: Longbow
3 Shadow Walkers: Longbow

Henchmen:
2 Shadow Warriors: Longbow
1 Shadow Novice: Longbow

495 crowns

8 shots a turn, 7 are BS4. Castle up and off you go forcing a rout test. After first game its shopping for swords.

Easy peasy. First skills needed "Sniper" and "quickshot"

Zero2Hero-dk
11-06-2008, 17:05
Yes, it's pretty much a beardy warband!

I was thinking of making a start up as following:

Master - Elf bow, sword
Weaver - long bow, spear
3x walker - long bow, sword

henchmen:
2x warriors - spear

This was mainly done to make the warband less beardy for startes and upgrade one of the walkers to be strongman builded (or two)

The other build is seriously invincible at first round.

dagaff
16-11-2008, 17:13
How were th elves deemed to powerful?

mweaver
16-11-2008, 19:09
They are faster than any other warband, and speed is very important in many Mordheim scenarios.

Their initiative is higher than almost everyone else, and initiative is important in Mordheim.

Their weapon skill is as high or higher than any other warband's.

Their ballistic skill is as high or higher than any other warband's.

All of which makes them very powerful. Initially they will be a smaller-than average warband because the warriors are expensive, but if they do OK in the first couple of games (no fatalities) than they will dominate most campaigns.

D0n_Matr0
17-11-2008, 18:12
I am thinking of starting shadow warriors in our campaign. I really like elves and I dont have any other elves warband lists. I really dont see them as good as some seem to think. 8 bow attacks a turn are not going to kill so much and some armies are so fast that they will reach you before you menage to put real hurt in them. Last campaing we had was won by a carnival plyer who kinda kept dominating the games and really I see carnival as the cheesy list. They have so good cc units they can mow down everything their opponent throws at them.

mweaver
17-11-2008, 18:44
If you want to run them, run them. They are fun. They are more powerful than "Mordheim" warbands, generally, but they were designed for the"Lustria" campaign setting. "Mordheim" warbands were play-tested against other "Mordheim" warbands, while "Lustria" warbands were only playtested against other "Lustria" warbands and "Khemri" warbands were only playtested against each other (I think there were only two).

In general, the Lustria warbands are all a little more powerful than the Mordheim bands. I don't know where the Carnival fits in - was it designed for the "Empire in Flames" setting? If so, it was probably not playtested against warbands that weren't part of that setting. Those warbands may be more powerful than the Lustria warbands. I have never played or played against a Carnival, but people seem to think it is a very powerful warband.

Bottom line, I think, is to get together with your friends and decide what warbands are acceptible to choose from, and choose the one you think you will have the most fun playing from that list.

Inquisitor Konig
17-11-2008, 20:22
I played with Carnival in our group's last Campaign. Everyone hated them! Next campaign we are only going to use the Warbands out of the rulebook and Dwarfs because no one thinks they are overpowerd.

Elves get really annoying when there are multiple Heroes with Quick Shot, Elf Bows, and Hunting Arrows... uhg.

mweaver
17-11-2008, 22:53
"Next campaign we are only going to use the Warbands out of the rulebook and Dwarfs because no one thinks they are overpowerd."

That is my experience with them. Indeed, some of my friends tried them and swore they were underpowered, but I have run four dwarf warbands and three have done well. (Let's not dwell on that other one). The Dwarf treasurehunters were designed for the Mordheim setting, so were intended to balance with the original warbands.

Count Sinister
17-11-2008, 23:58
I've always found Dwarf Treasure-Hunters to be a pretty overpowered warband - although that's not directly on-topic, I suppose.

The key point about Shadow Warriors is that they are very good if the player running them builds them to the hilt. The 'all bow' warband is a case in point. Maybe I'm more interested in the idea of the warband having to face all-comers, so I tend not to max out on missile weapons, for example. However, almost the same thing can be said about dwarfs, and for those dwarfs that go the combat route, that insane special skill that allows them to parry a blow if they roll EQUAL to or over the highest attack roll (combined with the dwarf axe rules), makes them pretty over-powered, in my opinion.

In short - I suppose it depends on the player.

The worst thing about the Shadow Warrior warband (originally) were the terrible models. They were AWFUL!

mweaver
18-11-2008, 03:15
"The worst thing about the Shadow Warrior warband (originally) were the terrible models. They were AWFUL!"

Indeed. I generally used Reaper elves for shadow elves.

The dwarves have some nice perks, but they also have two big problems - only four starting heroes (two of whom can't wear armor and can't fire missile weapons), and they are SLOW as molasses in Kislev. For that matter, they can't climb and they are almost always going to strike last. The elves, on the other hand, have WS and Leadership stats that are comparable to the dwarves and are otherwise better (except for T), start with five heroes (none of the crappy youngbloods), and they are 66% faster than the dwarves. They climb like monkeys and they are almost always going to go first in a melee. (And, talking about insane special skills, how about fey quickness, which pretty much means an elf will attack first even when he is charged?).

Don't get me wrong - I think dwarves are a good warband. They can be a little slow starting - particularly if there happen to be a lot of run-and-grab-stuff scenarios at first, but they build nicely over time.

Alltaken
18-11-2008, 23:01
I really dont see them as good as some seem to think. 8 bow attacks a turn are not going to kill so much and some armies are so fast that they will reach you before you menage to put real hurt in them

Actually I find that pretty incorrect. Normally you'll have 2 or 3 rounds of shooting if you move more or less correctly on the field. that means 16 shoots, try the statistics for 16 ws 4 shots, ok let's make it 8 ws4 and 8 ws 3 shots. You'll probably be hitting 6 at least and wound 3 or 4. And remember elves can move as fast as the fastest warband and they can climb, what's the issue with climbing? you get away and win 1 or 2 more rounds of shooting. Believe me, 8 shots kill anything. They're only weakness is if they loose a lot of men the first or second game, besides that they kick a**.

The most allcomers list is an all bows besides. Try them and you'll see it's true

Asp
19-11-2008, 15:46
People cant seriously be discussing wheter SW are overpowered.

When even the slumbering, absent minded monster that is GW takes affair and de-officializes a warband, you can be certain than things were not as they should be.

grumbaki
19-11-2008, 20:32
Last week I shocked my gaming group into silence. I idly wondered if I should bring shadow warriors. I described this set up:

Every warrior has a spear, shield and longbow (+2 as in our gaming group for shields). I then explained that with Movement 5 and my 30'' range, I could get in shots while staying out of combat easily. Then when they do close, my initiative 6 and spear would mean that I'd still get to strike first when they charged. There was a silence that insued and one person went as far as to say that he wouldn't want to play against that warband. I wasn't serious (it's not like I even have the models), but it goes to show you how bad that warband is. Personally, I'm glad to hear this news and I commend GW for doing it.

Catferret
19-11-2008, 21:41
Slightly off topic but: The thing people seem to forget about house-ruling shields to be in line with current Warhammer rules is the bonus only applies when used with a hand weapon. In the case of Mordheim, it would be sword, axe or mace. Dwarf axe as well I guess. Also applying the bonus save to unwieldy weapons would likely require a price hike. At the very least make them 10GC.

5GC for the same save as heavy armour (admittedly only in h-to-h) is a very good deal, especially if you aren't losing out on anything. Unwieldy weapons prevent using a 2nd weapon so you are meant to sacrifice the bonus attack for first strike (spear) or +1S (morningstar).

D0n_Matr0
21-11-2008, 13:51
Actually I find that pretty incorrect. Normally you'll have 2 or 3 rounds of shooting if you move more or less correctly on the field. that means 16 shoots, try the statistics for 16 ws 4 shots, ok let's make it 8 ws4 and 8 ws 3 shots. You'll probably be hitting 6 at least and wound 3 or 4. And remember elves can move as fast as the fastest warband and they can climb, what's the issue with climbing? you get away and win 1 or 2 more rounds of shooting. Believe me, 8 shots kill anything. They're only weakness is if they loose a lot of men the first or second game, besides that they kick a**.

The most allcomers list is an all bows besides. Try them and you'll see it's true

Well if they get 2 rounds of long range/movement shooting and 1 round of short range no movement. The statics are going to look like this vs skavens:
"bs3" - 2 wounds. So if you shoot same target you can get one down or even 2 if you are lucky with the injuries
"bs4" -2,6 wounds.

Now with 3 rounds of shooting the skaven have taken ~4 casulties out of 17. Thats not enough for a rout. Now if the skavens dont bother going for cc they might just sling so they dont need to climb (tho they have the I for it) If all of them sling it will look like this:
"bs2" - 4,3 wounds. This is enough for a rout and also takes nice chunk of their firepower in 1 turn. After this point it will be a downhill for the elves. The skavens are going to keep punding in that ~4 wounds whatever the elves do. The elves can prob push rout test next turn and skaven have 1/2 chance of routing or even worse but if the skavens wont run all the elves are going to die veary fast.

Just an example. The elves actually do really well in this example and I understand they are really really powerful, I just dont think they are so overpowered (they are OP). Just try playing any CC-oriented army vs carnival.75pts for 2 s6 attacks, pestilence, could of flies or get a rot in the 1. game of a long campaign. I think there are a few warbands that are so grossly better than others its almost funny.

grumbaki
21-11-2008, 19:43
Just to use an analogy:

The new edition of warhammer comes out, and some army books are done. The Empire and Orcs really are pretty balanced, and everyone is happy.

After the warbands in the official rulebook have been played by...everybody, GW releases some new ones. Orcs and Dwarfs are both balanced with the old warbands, and everyone is happy.

The comes along vampire counts. People complain. Then daemons come out. People complain ever louder. Some people are happy, but others are not.

GW releases shadow warriors and carnival of chaos. A Middenheimer warband that wants to go CC, as Middenheimers should, has almost no chance against the carnival. In a campaign, the carnival will ruin any warband it touches, etc etc. Shadow Warriors are tough and can be annoying to face, kind of like VC, but like VC they are not as bad as daemons. Again, what it comes down to is warband composition to see how fair it is, as some carnival warbands won't be impossible.

This is what we call power creep. I personally think that what is happening in warhammer now is what happened to Mordheim. You get the first warbands that are all balanced pretty well. But the more new ones that are created, the more powerful they get. The only variations to this are Averlanders and Ostlanders, because they use the mercenary template for their warband creation.

Inquisitor Konig
21-11-2008, 23:38
I used to think Carnival wasnt too bad... but then I played with them in a campaign. I doubt I'll use them again in a friendly campaign.

Asp
22-11-2008, 00:03
Carnival = overpowered
Shadow Warrios = ridiculously overpowered

BigRob
22-11-2008, 09:13
It all comes down to playstyle I suppose. I remember my friend playing shadow warriors when they first came out and we beat him everytime. He brought lots of expensive kit at the start, like the mages waystones, which was all useless and so he only had a small warband, which I remember my marienburg lads swarmed all over and took apart.

Equally, my shadow warriors bow list wiped the floor with possessed, Sisters and Rieklanders early in another campaign and become monsters.

I'd like to see an elf warband, maybe wood elves, but the shadow warrior rules just need a bit of trimming. Remove power build, remove sniper, maybe make them more frail and susceptable to injury and they could work.

Asp
22-11-2008, 17:05
Here we disagree. Elves in Mordheim have been discussed page up and down and the concensus was that if balance is possible then at least nobody has managed to achieve it yet.

Though Elven HS and DP rock.

mweaver
22-11-2008, 21:38
The unofficial woodelves warband that was making the rounds was similar to the shadow warriors. Maybe a tad more powerful.

I think it would be interesting to create a better balanced shadow elf warband. I think playing with the structure and cost of the band might work better than messing with their stats (and making them too inconsistent with WH elves).

grumbaki
22-11-2008, 21:53
In a campaign we once ran a wood elf warband. It actually worked very well, because only half of the warband could have missile weapons. From memory, it was something like this:

Heroes:
Elven Noble (Missile weapons allowed. WS-5 BS-4, as an incentive to get stuck in)
2x Wardancers (WS-5, 6+ ward save that can be improved to 4+ with step aside/dodge blow)
Tree Singer (mostly close ranged spells)

Henchmen:
0+ Glade Guard (no missile weapons allowed, special two handed spears. 15gc, counts as a spear that gives them +1 attack)
0-5 Archers (name should give a hint)

That, added to them not being able to hire any hired swords, having a max size of 12 and never being able to have T4 or strength skills made them work.
Due to the lack of strength skills, they got some new close combat skills to make them work (such as a strongman skill for the wardancers). None of the special skills were shooting oriented.

They were still fast as hell and very skilled, but they really couldn't play a shooting game. Only six models could stand back and shoot, and most of our games had an objective that required you to get into close combat. Add that in with some nice options for wardancers and glade guard, and a mixed warband was made.

mweaver
22-11-2008, 22:13
I think that might be a slightly different version of woodelves than I played. I don't remember the option to take gladeguard henchmen. The one I played did allow you to take one dryad as a henchman, though.

I do remember one of your starting heroes had to be a wardancer, though (But I'm pretty sure it was only one).

unitus
20-12-2008, 02:51
no longer legal.

mweaver
20-12-2008, 15:08
I'm not sure they ever were!

holmcross
05-05-2009, 07:17
People cant seriously be discussing wheter SW are overpowered.

When even the slumbering, absent minded monster that is GW takes affair and de-officializes a warband, you can be certain than things were not as they should be.

Now, did Shadow Warriors used to be an offical warband, but were bumped down to unoffical by GW along with the other Lustria warbands? Or were Shadow Warriors the only ones to get the axe from offical status?

Enarion
05-05-2009, 10:23
Currenly im working on a SW warband myself. My mates also thought they were to strong before we even started our campaign so they nerfed me alot by removing the +12 exp for Shadow walkers (They are weak like dregs and youngbloods than). Also another thing I was wondering, When a enemy model is knocked down or stunned, should a test be done for hitting AND wounding when shooting at such a model? Or is it just for wounding as the official rules dont mention anything about shooting at models that are at such status. Thanks for the help alrdy :)

mweaver
05-05-2009, 12:14
Shadow Warriors were a warband for the Lustria setting. I'm not sure if they were ever allowed for tournament play.

Yes, you still have to hit a KD or stunned model when shooting; the auto take-out (on a stunned model) and the roll-to-wound-only (KD) rules are there to represent the relative ease of reaching down and cutting the stunned/KD warrior's throat if you are in hand-to-hand.

At one point we discussed a house rule granting you a +1 to hit if shooting at a KD or stunned model, but we decided against it since we figure shooting is pretty powerful already.

Benkei
05-05-2009, 14:34
Mmmm.... Enarion, do you realize that "+12 xp" you removed from your Shadow Walkers does not give you any advances, right? because removing that 12 xp from the SWs just buffs them as they now advance faster

Enarion
06-05-2009, 09:46
Well first of all, It wasnt me who made up the rule :P it were my mates to compensate the power of Shadow warriors. Second. It doesnt really makes sence what you say. Yes they advance faster but they dont have any starting skills at all. They are now just Shadow warriors with 1 more WS. Im really having a hard time at the beginning of our campaigns xD Elves are fragile :( I hate possesed (although 2 of my elves now have the hatred rule against possesed after rolling 2 lucky rolls on the seriouse injury chart \o/)

Ultimate Life Form
06-05-2009, 09:58
Well, at least my Henchman Roster stops at 14.



Because of that, for some Warbands, the starting Leader is actually the weakest hero. His stats may be a little better than those of the rest, but itīs not enough to warrant the extra 20 Exp.

Example: Clan Pestilens Warband

Plague Priest (Leader) stats:

5 4 4 4 4 1 5 1 7

Plague Monk (Regular Hero) stats:

5 4 3 3 4 1 5 1 6

As you can see, the Plague Monk is a little weaker, but only by 3 "points", so it would appear the Plague Priest is stronger. However, keep in mind that the Priest already starts with 20 Exp, while the Monk starts with 0 Exp. By the time the Monk will reach 20 Exp, he will have leveled up 8 times. Assuming he only rolls characteristic increases, he will by that time outperform a Plague Priest of the same level by a whopping 5 points.

So depending on your Warband choice, you need not be sad when your leader dies and canīt be bought back, actually, chances are, he was a weak member in the first place. The loss can easily be covered by Henchmen rolling "the Ladīs got talent" which usually perform very well as well since they too started with 0 Exp and go through all the level upping at the beginning. Looking at the Warband rosters, you will notice that a Henchman with 14 Exp rolling tLgT actually missed 2 chances of leveling up on the Hero chart. Therefore, Henchmen should be promoted as early as possible.

Yes, Iīm quoting myself here, but I didnīt want to type it down again just for you. Also, itīs fine because Iīm one of the most trustworthy sources I know. It took me some time to figure this out myself, but itīs actually true. Your friends are being really nice to you. Just wait a few games...:D

Enarion
06-05-2009, 10:06
hehe so it seems. We need to start a normal campaign anyway since were all twisting rules and such cause we play with 4 people (at a time) instead of just 2. Its abit hard but wel figure it out.

Askil the Undecided
06-05-2009, 10:13
Everyone agrees they're overpowered, everyone wants to make it fairer, but nobody can argee on how.

Result:

Play a different warband. If you want to play elves so bady you can ignore pathetic hand wavery fluff justifications play WHFB and leave Mordheim to the warbands that have a reason to be there that doesn't involve the sworn guardians of north west Ulthuan travelling halfway across the world just to have a look around a ruined city.

For Christ's sake why are the guardians of Nagarythe anywhere but Nagarythe maintaining their eternal vigil against the return of the Druchii?

mweaver
06-05-2009, 13:30
Enarion, do you have the "Chaos in the Streets" article? It has the rules for multi-player (3+) games and several scenarios.

Benkei
06-05-2009, 13:40
Well first of all, It wasnt me who made up the rule :P it were my mates to compensate the power of Shadow warriors. Second. It doesnt really makes sence what you say. Yes they advance faster but they dont have any starting skills at all. They are now just Shadow warriors with 1 more WS. Im really having a hard time at the beginning of our campaigns xD Elves are fragile :( I hate possesed (although 2 of my elves now have the hatred rule against possesed after rolling 2 lucky rolls on the seriouse injury chart \o/)

Again, you do NOT get any skill from the starting xp, so they advance faster and they have the same number of starting skills than using the real rules = 0 ;)

Enarion
06-05-2009, 21:11
Everyone agrees they're overpowered, everyone wants to make it fairer, but nobody can argee on how.

Result:

Play a different warband. If you want to play elves so bady you can ignore pathetic hand wavery fluff justifications play WHFB and leave Mordheim to the warbands that have a reason to be there that doesn't involve the sworn guardians of north west Ulthuan travelling halfway across the world just to have a look around a ruined city.

For Christ's sake why are the guardians of Nagarythe anywhere but Nagarythe maintaining their eternal vigil against the return of the Druchii?

Accualy you need to read the background story first (Which Games Workshop wrote!) Shadow warriors are scouts of Nagarythe. They are not seen as a part of the High elf army (although they can be commanded when needed). They are high elves which have fought Malekith's shadow war for so long that they got skilled in it without letting chaos control them. Shadow warriors are practiclly all over the warhammer world. From Altdorf to Lustria and from Nagarythe to Khemri. As I said, if they are indeed needed they will be called upon. Although the high elves themselves do not have much trust in Shadow warriors for they do not like reading and drinking fancy wines like the other elves.

So shadow warriors DO fit in Mordheim imo. In search for old elven artifacts most of the time (again, warhammer story), plain treasure hunting or on a scouting mission. You can choose your RP story ;)

And btw, if the starting exp doesnt give you skills why would you even have it? that would be useless, just a nerf of your leaders. I find this very inbelieveable.

Greetz Enarion

Ultimate Life Form
06-05-2009, 22:00
And btw, if the starting exp doesnt give you skills why would you even have it? that would be useless, just a nerf of your leaders. I find this very inbelieveable.

Greetz Enarion


While you may find this unbelievable, it is in fact true. To end this once and for all, here is a direct quote from the official Mordheim BRB, for you to read on p81:

When warriors are recruited, some of them already
have some experience. The warband lists detail how
many Experience points different warriors begin
with. Record these on your warband roster sheet by
ticking the right number of boxes. No extra advances
are gained for this
experience. It simply
represents the
experience the
warriors have
accumulated
before the
warband is
formed.

No reasoning, debating or otherwise disbelieving will protect you from it. The only way around it is cheating (or "House Rules", the same in my eyes). And yes, it IS a nerf.

Hope I could finally convince you...

Askil the Undecided
06-05-2009, 22:48
Yeah, sorry to have to tell you this Enarion but that's exactly what I meant by "pathetic hand wavery fluff justifications" in the first place.

Why are these scarse and unimaginably elite veterans on the opposite side of a different continent to the province of Ulthuan they famously guard? Erm... Oh they are everywhere, it has nothing to do with them being a well-liked and well-selling archetype that people liked from the HE army.

Anyway yeah starting Experience represents the amount of experience it took the individual to become a hero of that type. It is meant to nerf heroes who are powerful at recruitment so they level up slower than weaker heroes.

Asp
07-05-2009, 00:50
everyone agrees they're overpowered, everyone wants to make it fairer, but nobody can argee on how.

Result:

Play a different warband. If you want to play elves so bady you can ignore pathetic hand wavery fluff justifications play whfb and leave mordheim to the warbands that have a reason to be there that doesn't involve the sworn guardians of north west ulthuan travelling halfway across the world just to have a look around a ruined city.


qft :d

Asp
07-05-2009, 00:54
double post victory, now with new sig!

---

i cant belive it! - all these years i was the pariah on the specialist games forums for discouraging elves in MH, but on warseer people agree as if its the most natural thing in the world (which it kind of is, anyway)

Askil the Undecided
07-05-2009, 01:45
After years of trying I've finally been sig-quoted, I feel so proud.:D

holmcross
07-05-2009, 06:45
Sometimes the strengths (or weaknesses) of soemthing lie between the lines, and its not so obvious right from the first glance. I play CoC, and holy crap... Brutes are insane. Having max toughness and strength puts all advance rolls in those catagories to extra wounds and attacks, respectively. That wasn't so apparent when I first looked at the warband roster.... but sheesh. If I wasn't playing against a skaven warband I'd feel guilty about it.

SW, on the other hand.... most of what makes them so ridiculous is obvious when you first look at that warband's rules, and the rest becomes even more apparent during gameplay (particularly their skills). There is one-sided gameplay and then there is SW. I've only played two games against them, but it was enough that I refuse to play them again (unless some serious modifcations are made).

Enarion
07-05-2009, 08:22
Sigh oke, be stubborn. I dont mind ;) If you think elves dont belong in Mordheim, than they dont belong there for you. If you want to know the story the guys at games workshop wrote, find the official rules for the old SW warbands and read the story they added. itl all get clear to you. You also keep talking about ''defenders of ulthuan'' while they do not defend anything at all! in matter of fact they kinda dislike their own race for being a bunch of fancy idiots. and that hatred is mutual. They just answer to the call of a big battle from their phoenix king because thats the awesome uber code for them, Their honor. I really dont mind that you think elves dont belong in mordheim, its normally not a good place for elves I agree. But dont go and shout idiotic things like ''fluffy wavering blabla'' if you dont know the story behind them. They are just scouts and arnt that rare at all. They arny often seen as they are ''Shadow'' warriors (and unless you wear heat detecting glasses, they CANT be seen that easily.... if they want).

Well il drop it now. Go with your own story you like in your head and be happy in a corner :)

Seems Iw as wrong about the exp il tell my mates :) Thanks for that

holmcross
07-05-2009, 08:33
I don't really care about any of the fluff arguements, its purely based upon gameplay issues for me. The Elves in Mordheim are just ridiculous.

Apparently one CAN have his cake and eat it too.

Enarion
07-05-2009, 10:29
oke mate, sorry if I seemed rude with my previouse posts it just I tried to make a point. Mordheim is indeed more for the teethless madman who want money etc etc. Although I can place SW's in mordheim I understand not everyone can. (I wouldnt be able to place wood elves there for example). I just like to play Sw's :)

Askil the Undecided
07-05-2009, 10:51
oke mate, sorry if I seemed rude with my previouse posts it just I tried to make a point. Mordheim is indeed more for the teethless madman who want money etc etc. Although I can place SW's in mordheim I understand not everyone can. (I wouldnt be able to place wood elves there for example). I just like to play Sw's :)

Of course you like playing them they're probably the coolest elves that exist and they're horribly overpowered.

This is exactly what I mean GW wrote fluff that justified a decision based on the desire to sell more models. People went along with it because they chose something people wanted to see more of the cool non-poncy shadow elves.

Enarion I've read the damn fluff, thats how I managed to have a problem with it. Stop waving it in my face as a strawman for your argument.

Anyway. Yeah Shadow Elves far too powerful syptomatic of power creep in the post release warbands. (Says a Beastmen player)

holmcross
07-05-2009, 11:18
oke mate, sorry if I seemed rude with my previouse posts it just I tried to make a point. Mordheim is indeed more for the teethless madman who want money etc etc. Although I can place SW's in mordheim I understand not everyone can. (I wouldnt be able to place wood elves there for example). I just like to play Sw's :)

No need to apologize, I didn't catch any rudeness. Like with all informal games, what you play is up to you, and in the particular instance of questionable legality such as SW, up to what your playgroup is OK with.

If it is a friendly game, I'd suggest letting them know what SW can do (as to not surprise them in the middle of a campaign), and discussing possible changes that can make everyone happy. This assumes everyone is being friendly and reasonable.

Askil the Undecided
07-05-2009, 11:47
All hail Holmcross the peacemaker!

Got the nail on the head. If you want to play something unofficial, contoversial or fan made it's fine as long as everyone else agrees. It's best to talk to whomever is running your campaign and the group you will play with before building a CoC or SW warband for example.

Ultimate Life Form
07-05-2009, 11:51
If you want to play something unofficial, contoversial or fan made it's fine as long as everyone else agrees.


We are testing some Warbands not developed by GW at the moment, and the usual justification we give when choosing such a Warband is normally

"well, it cannot possibly be more overpowered than Shadow Warriors, now can it?":p

(Since we have 2 SW Warbands running around, and everyone hates them, even the ones playing them)

Asp
07-05-2009, 13:12
heh

ultimate, can you tell us some more about your group's add on & house rules? maybe in a different thread

Ultimate Life Form
07-05-2009, 13:27
Thereīs nothing to report. We have no House rules whatsoever except that everyone can wear any armor he comes by (something I try to fade out, but then again I wonīt complain when my Saurus Hero with Scaly Skin, Shield and Gromril Armor will sport an 1+ AS).

As for Warbands, we just use some that were created by some weirdos we picked up on the web. We have a Wood Elf Warband that can be found on Mordheimer I believe, who have a delay when recruiting troops because itīs quite a way from Athel Loren (even though my Lizardmen arenīt bothered at all coming to Mordheim from the opposit side of the world:p).

Yesterday, we started a Skaven battle with my opponent using a Clan Eshin Assassin Squad, also from Mordheimer, and myself a Clan Skryre Warband. Warp Lightning Madness!!!:chrome:

Weīll see how it turns out...

mweaver
07-05-2009, 13:29
Shadow warrriors are terrible. We stomp on them regularly. We have to force new players to play them just so the rest of us can have someone to easily abuse.

Well, at least in our last big competitive campaign that's more or less how it turned out. A new player wanted to play them, and I told him they were very powerful, and that if they weren't firmly stepped on early in the campaign they would dominate. There was some whining of course when we firmly stepped on his elves, but he should have figured out the corollary to my statement for himself and seen it coming. Oddly enough, the only plain vanilla warband in the campaign was ahead when we called it off (Sisters).

ZamOne
08-05-2009, 13:54
yes exactly.

they are the most overpowered warband released to date.

What about that ogre warband? those were pretty beastly, one of them could bring down 2-3 other goons if both warbands are just starting.

Baya87
23-01-2011, 22:28
Everyone keeps saying that Shadow Warriors are so strong, but I have not been having very much luck with them against the Undead.

I am playing a 2 person game, Shadow Warriors against undead. My bf (the undead player) got "Sprint" to go with his Vampire. This basically makes it so that unless I am hiding in a building somewhere, he just slaughters me and it is not very fun. Once I am in hand to hand combat with this vampire, it is basically over for me (And is it true that once the Vampire is in hand to hand I can't shoot him long distance?)

We play a lot of treasure hunting games, so it is hard to just stay in my tower, and he is good at being at the exact angle where I can't manage to shoot him....

I have already bought garlic, and that seems to be the only thing that can (sometimes) slow him down.
What kind of strategy can I use against him as the shadow warriors?

The vampire and ghouls have an endurance where I have to hit on 5+, so it is pretty much impossible to knock them down. :(

BigRob
23-01-2011, 23:55
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af29/Ubermutant/Threadcromancy.jpg

Is about all I can say.

Zero2Hero-dk
24-01-2011, 02:32
@BAYA87

Yes, undead warband can be quite the challenge. But why not take advantage of the high ballistic skill and use a lot of holy water? (One for each model to support one another) That should take care of the high toughness dudes, then you could pick out any zombies to force a rout test :)

owen matthew
29-01-2011, 02:37
My group has been using the SW in various campaigns over the past 8 years or so. While they do start off pretty good, they have never done well for any of us as a campaign goes on. Skaven really put them in their place all the time, other bads as well, but this is notable.

I have been playing for almost a decade and I have heard all the arguements but I have never thought they were as good as the internet base claimed them to be.