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Belerophon709
25-04-2007, 22:10
Hey all...

Says in the description of the eternal guard that they are armed in a multitude of ways, ranging from double blade spears to spears and shields and so on and so on...

Now, if I model all my Eternal Guard using the old wood elf spearmen models (spears + shields), and since all models are assumed to have a hand weapon (unless noted otherwise, not noted in the description of Eternal Guard), can they if they so choose, use hw+shields in combat and receive the +1 bonus?

loveless
25-04-2007, 22:16
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Eternal Guard Equipment and Armour is classified as "Eternal Guard weapons and armour."

Also, they have a special rule called "Eternal Guard Fighting Style"
(this is the part that's odd since this seems to be where you're getting your info from)
"Regardless of how Eternal Guard models are armed and armoured they have an Armour Save of 5+. They are considered to fight as if they were armed with two hand weapons in close combat if they are in base contact with an enemy. In addition, they may fight with an additional rank (as if armed with spears) to the front, although models doing so only get a single attack."
Warhammer Armies: Wood Elves, page 18

Belerophon709
25-04-2007, 22:25
Yup that's the part. Understand completely - just think that if rules lawyered enough, one could make a decent argument for the opposite. I personally think that they shouldn't be allowed to, but the idea that they should has been presented to me and I understand where it's coming from...

Thanks for the answer :D

Edit: In your quote you missed the part with the shields, which is quite essential: "...others prefer more traditional spears and shields."

Chicago Slim
26-04-2007, 00:03
Yeah, look, when the book came out, they knew it'd be a while before they had the EG models done, so they put in some text making it clear that the old spearmen models could be used in WYSIWYG tournaments, and still count as Eternal Guard, regardless of the WYS part...

Ivan Stupidor
26-04-2007, 00:34
Sure, you can give them hand weapons and shields. They then have an armour save of 5+.
You can give them spear and shield. They then have an armour save of 5+.
You can give them two hand weapons. They then have an armour save of 5+.
You can give them flails or pistols or lascannons or very pointy shoes. They then have an armour save of 5+.
You can give them any weapons and armour you want. They'll still have an armour save of 5+. There's no wiggle room in "Regardless of how Eternal Guard models are armed and armoured they have an Armour Save of 5+."

Ender Shadowkin
26-04-2007, 01:04
Yup that's the part. Understand completely - just think that if rules lawyered enough, one could make a decent argument for the opposite. I personally think that they shouldn't be allowed to, but the idea that they should has been presented to me and I understand where it's coming from...

Thanks for the answer :D

Edit: In your quote you missed the part with the shields, which is quite essential: "...others prefer more traditional spears and shields."

Well technical they do get the HE + shield bonus . . . your assuming they have light armor, which is not listed in the description of how they are modeled/armed ;) . . . most rules lawering can be rules lawered away, which is of course the problem. I don't stay up to the wee hourse of the night painting my manitiatures so I can join a debate team. :angel:

T10
26-04-2007, 10:16
Loveless is correct. Eternal Guard simply do not have the option of fighting with just the hand-weapon: they always fight (as if armed) with two hand weapons if in base contact with an enemy.

The additional fighting rank works in the same way as does an additional rank of spearmen, but without actually using the word "spear".

-T10

loveless
26-04-2007, 18:22
Edit: In your quote you missed the part with the shields, which is quite essential: "...others prefer more traditional spears and shields."

I'll nitpick here simply because you state "quite essential".

It's actually completely irrelevant due to the statement "Regardless of how [they] are armed..." "Regardless" is a powerful word, which in this case essentially says "please ignore the bit of background we just gave you, since the rules are as follows."

They can prefer to use whatever weapon they want, even, as a previous poster mentioned, the mighty Lascannon of the Imperium of Man. However, they count as having 2 hand weapons in the first rank and spears in the second rank.

This isn't personal against you, but I have noticed it quite a bit lately where a player will look at a bit of background and automatically assume that they get the benefit of whatever that background may be. Unfortunately, you must follow rules, which do their best to emulate the background material.

Again, as someone noted, the spear and shield bit was placed within to allow the old models to still be acceptable in terms of WYSIWYG, as well as allowing room for conversions to be simpler, as modeling spear-staves could get annoying.

Griefbringer
26-04-2007, 18:58
Hmmm, sounds like we have another official exception from WYSIWYG with this.

Festus
26-04-2007, 19:13
There are a few of those: BO's Armed to da Teef among them.

Festus

Belerophon709
26-04-2007, 20:32
I'll nitpick here simply because you state "quite essential".

It's actually completely irrelevant due to the statement "Regardless of how [they] are armed..." "Regardless" is a powerful word, which in this case essentially says "please ignore the bit of background we just gave you, since the rules are as follows."

They can prefer to use whatever weapon they want, even, as a previous poster mentioned, the mighty Lascannon of the Imperium of Man. However, they count as having 2 hand weapons in the first rank and spears in the second rank.

This isn't personal against you, but I have noticed it quite a bit lately where a player will look at a bit of background and automatically assume that they get the benefit of whatever that background may be. Unfortunately, you must follow rules, which do their best to emulate the background material.

Again, as someone noted, the spear and shield bit was placed within to allow the old models to still be acceptable in terms of WYSIWYG, as well as allowing room for conversions to be simpler, as modeling spear-staves could get annoying.

I don't take it personal at all, and I'm not the one who wants the EGs to have the bonus, since I'm on the other side of the table. Spearmen wearing light armour and shield also have an armour save of 5+, but they get an additional bonus in CC if they opt to fight with HW+Shield. Since it's mentioned that the EG might use a shield, my opponent argued that if modelled with shields, they should be able to opt for the HW+Shield combo, receiving the proper +1 bonus to their save. That is why I think the quote was quite essential. I'm fine with the EG not getting the bonus though.

Concerning the part about reading stuff into the background, I completely agree. However, it works the other way around as well, when players will completely ignore the "fluff" part (see the rules for a Giant where it says "Single Mighty Strike" and "...avoid the blow..." in the 'Thump with Club' part, clearly implying one (1) attack, which should mean that you should be taking one single ward save against the 2d6 wounds caused by the attack - but still, some players choose to ignore this completely, claiming that since it doesn't state CLEARLY in the RULES that it's a single attack, 2d6 ward saves should be taken against the 2d6 wounds.) to further their own ends.

loveless
26-04-2007, 21:21
Concerning the part about reading stuff into the background, I completely agree. However, it works the other way around as well, when players will completely ignore the "fluff" part (see the rules for a Giant where it says "Single Mighty Strike" and "...avoid the blow..." in the 'Thump with Club' part, clearly implying one (1) attack, which should mean that you should be taking one single ward save against the 2d6 wounds caused by the attack - but still, some players choose to ignore this completely, claiming that since it doesn't state CLEARLY in the RULES that it's a single attack, 2d6 ward saves should be taken against the 2d6 wounds.) to further their own ends.

Ah ha, I can help you out there *nods*

I'll spare my incessant quoting on this one since the section is kinda long, but take a look at page 31 in the rulebook under "Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds".

In this case, you can actually ignore the background and just reference the rules in order to get the right answer ;)

Belerophon709
26-04-2007, 22:07
Wish it was that easy - according to the anti-fluff-people the rules concerning "Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds" don't cover Giants since 'Thump with Club' doesn't use 'to hit' or 'to wound' rolls. That + the fact that the Giants club isn't consistantly a 'multiple wounds'-weapon (his other attacks don't generate multiple wounds).

They claim that the rules don't explicitly say that the 2d6 wounds come from a single attack, a 'hit' - completely disregarding the fluff...

There's a thread on this very forum with tons and tons of back and forth concerning this very issue already. Check it out, you'll see what I mean...

loveless
26-04-2007, 22:12
Oh jeez...

well...it wouldn't just be the enemy i'd want to 'Thump with Club' in that case :p

Belerophon709
26-04-2007, 22:14
Haha - My thoughts exactly ;)

TheDarkDaff
27-04-2007, 05:00
Just to get back to the original post a bit here but why do you assume that they have Hand Weapons at all. There is a school of though that not mentioning a Hand Weapon in the Model's equipment is noting that the model does not have a hand weapon. Not that this affects many units that have alternate weapons weapons at all.

loveless
27-04-2007, 05:42
"Unless noted otherwise, all models are assumed to be carrying a hand weapon of some kind."
Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook, page 56

T10
27-04-2007, 10:26
Hmmm, sounds like we have another official exception from WYSIWYG with this.

Not a big deal, really.

The rules just say that even though the models in the unit are armed with a wide variety of weapons and armour they are still treated as a homogenous unit.

For the Eternal Guard this comes at the cost of flexibility, but that's the way love goes.

-T10

Brother Siccarius
27-04-2007, 14:56
Just to get back to the original post a bit here but why do you assume that they have Hand Weapons at all. There is a school of though that not mentioning a Hand Weapon in the Model's equipment is noting that the model does not have a hand weapon. Not that this affects many units that have alternate weapons weapons at all.
Warhammer rulebook pg 54, Weapons, weapons and units, second paragraph.

All troops and characters are assumed to carry hand weapons...

Whoops, beaten by loveless

Cpt_NinjaPants
28-04-2007, 15:30
I understand the armor save and all, but this confused me, "They are considered to be fighting with a extra hand weapon. In addition they may fight with a additional rank as if armed with spears. Although models doing so only get single attack."

So, the all get 2 attacks and champ gets 3 attacks, so when you try to fight in 2 ranks, everyone goes back to as if they only had 1 attack, or is only the second rank that loses it's extra attack?

On another note, if they always count as having 2 weapons, why do they only have 1 attack on their profile.

All of this is confusing the hell out of me, and is probably very simple to answer..

Atrahasis
28-04-2007, 15:37
So, the all get 2 attacks and champ gets 3 attacks, so when you try to fight in 2 ranks, everyone goes back to as if they only had 1 attack, or is only teh second rank that loses it's extra attack?They function like Saurus - the front rank gets 2 attacks (3 for champ) while the second gets 1 attack.

The confusion arises because whoever wrote the WE book decided to create a special rule instead of special weapons. If they'd just created a weapon (called an Eternal Guard Halberd/Spear/Pike/Rubber Chicken) that had the rules Fight in 2 Ranks and that models in base contact with enemy get +1 attack there would be no problem.


On another note, if they always count as having 2 weapons, why do they only have 1 attack on their profile. This is confusing the hell out of me, and is probably very simple to answer..That's the standard notation - the statline never shows weapon boni.

mightygnoblar
28-04-2007, 15:54
to me the really confusing bit is what happens if you make a character of the eternal kindred, as there seems to be so many overlapping and ambigous rules that could all be interpeted to different outcomes that all seem fairly viable by raw, an example would be giving him a great weapon, does he fight using his fighting style with the great weapon ie strike last, +2s and +1 attack, does one of the weaopn rules override the others entirely, or is the great weapon pointless because the fighting style always take priority, another point would be if tou could fight with the great weapon could you still keep the 5+sv, confusing to say the least

Griefbringer
28-04-2007, 17:08
Looking at the Eternal Guard character rules, they only seem to cover what happens if the model gets magical weapons or armour, but no mention about getting additional mundane equipment.

Easiest option would have been to rule that the character cannot get any mundane weapons/armour, but that is not what the rules say.

I would interpret the wording of the Eternal Guard Fighting Style as preventing the character from using any mundane equipment, but that is debtable. But at least the fighting style is not cumulative with mundane equipment (eg. you cannot claim to be simultaneously fighting with both two hand weapons and a great weapon).

Jonke
28-04-2007, 20:12
On the op. It never says EG have light armour. So, sure let him use hw and shield gaining a 5+ save, one attack each in the front rank and no 'spear attacks' from the second rank. :p

T10
29-04-2007, 02:25
An Eternal Kindred character that takes no magic weapon and no armour always fights as if armed with two hand weapons and has a 5+ armour save regardless of how he is actually armed.

You can give the character a shield but he will still fight as if armed with two hand weapons. You can mount him on a steed, but he has a 5+ armour save regardless.

There is no(*) way around this: You can't get an Eternal Guard model, character or otherwise, with an armour save other than 5+ or fight with anything other than two hand weapons.

-T10

(*) An eternal kindred character with magic weapons and/or magic armour is kind of an exception. Read up.

Chicago Slim
29-04-2007, 06:43
Can you mount an EG Kindred character? I thought that they stayed on foot...

Anyway, T10 is totally right about the weapons options: you can buy a great weapon for your EG Kindred hero, but it's a complete and utter waste of points, as his use of the EG Fighting Style overrules his actual weapons loadout.

Going back a bit: the EG Fight Style rule is really not hard to understand: front rank gets an extra attack, as if armed with hand weapons. Second rank gets a single attack, as if armed with spears. End of story.

Griefbringer
29-04-2007, 06:52
Can you mount an EG Kindred character?

Yes. Not that it would sound like a good idea to me.

T10
29-04-2007, 11:15
The Eternal Kindred membership does not restrict mounting the character on a steed or monster. The fighting style does not restrict this either.

He would not benefit from an improves save if mounted on a steed as the fighting style rules sets this to a fixed 5+.

He would not benefit from being mounted and armed with a spear unless in the second rank (in which case he cannot fight :))

In each round of close combat you would need to roll off to see wether or not he must fight with two hand weapons or what-ever mundane weapon is availalbe. This is beacuse the fighting style rules requires him to do something he is not allowed to do.

-T10

Glorfindel
29-04-2007, 12:18
With other words, eternal kindred characters are not worth taking :)

Griefbringer
29-04-2007, 12:44
With other words, eternal kindred characters are not worth taking :)

Depends.

Essentially, what you get with that kindred is an additional hand weapon and 5+ armour save.

Considering that for a hero additional hand weapon costs 4 points and EG kindred costs 5 points, you are getting the 5+ armour save for cheap (which you couldn't normally get with the additional hand weapon, since WE have only access to light armour and shield).

mightygnoblar
29-04-2007, 13:05
right if what ur saying is correct and eternals have to fight with two hand weapons if he is mounted this could mean that he not allowed to attck at all as he can only attack with his two hand weapons and the mounted prevents this, seems a bit daft but any other alternative would end up with some rules being broken

Glorfindel
29-04-2007, 14:51
Depends.

Essentially, what you get with that kindred is an additional hand weapon and 5+ armour save.

Considering that for a hero additional hand weapon costs 4 points and EG kindred costs 5 points, you are getting the 5+ armour save for cheap (which you couldn't normally get with the additional hand weapon, since WE have only access to light armour and shield).

They're still pretty weak though, especially considering the other options which are able to produce far more deadly heroes.

T10
29-04-2007, 17:38
right if what ur saying is correct and eternals have to fight with two hand weapons if he is mounted this could mean that he not allowed to attck at all as he can only attack with his two hand weapons and the mounted prevents this, seems a bit daft but any other alternative would end up with some rules being broken

No. If he can't use his two hand weapons (because he is mounted) then he is free to use any other legal weapons you may have armed him with, such as a mundane spear or great weapon.

Regardless, it's more cost-efficient to make the character a member of the Eternal Kindred and leave it at that. You still have a fair fighter that can spend points on Spites and Enchanted Items/Talismans.

I'd consider an Eternal Kindred Noble with the Fimbulwinter Shard and a Murder of Spites a pretty decent close combat fighter.

The Eternal Kindred isn't the fast-track to victory, but it's cheap and lets you buy more troops.

-T10

Masque
29-04-2007, 17:47
No. If he can't use his two hand weapons (because he is mounted) then he is free to use any other legal weapons you may have armed him with, such as a mundane spear or great weapon.

Actually, he's still allowed to use his two hand weapons when mounted. He just gets no bonus from doing so whatsoever.

TheDarkDaff
30-04-2007, 01:56
"Unless noted otherwise, all models are assumed to be carrying a hand weapon of some kind."
Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook, page 56

And that is entirely the point. Not putting it in their equipment is noting otherwise. Not that it really matters.

loveless
30-04-2007, 03:28
And that is entirely the point. Not putting it in their equipment is noting otherwise. Not that it really matters.

No. It's not.

By that logic, Wood Elf Glade Guard would not be able to attack in close combat, since their only listed equipment is longbows.

Nice try, though.

I'd lean towards the idea that hand weapons are not included when the equipment specifically states things that are not a listed weapon in the Rulebook or Army Book.

Since we're on Wood Elves, the Treeman has "Gnarled Fists", which I assume would mean that he does not have a hand weapon.

But, then again, it could specifically be that it has to state "No Hand Weapons" in order to disregard the hand weapon option.

Griefbringer
30-04-2007, 06:37
I would claim that the unit description has to explicitely state that a unit has not hand weapons, in order for it to have no hand weapons (ala 6th edition orcs).

Vattendroppe
30-04-2007, 08:47
I just can't believe this became a discussion. Isn't it obvious that they don't get HW/S bonus?

"Regardless of how Eternal Guard models are armed they have an armour save of 5+. They are considered to fight as if they were armed with two hand weapons in close combat if they are in base contact with an enemy. In addition they may fight with additional rank (as if armed with spears) to the front, although models doing so only get a single attack."

They fight with two handweapons and doesn't have three arms. They cannot get bonus from HW/S.

T10
30-04-2007, 08:52
I just can't believe that quote has been repeated again.

-T10

Vattendroppe
30-04-2007, 09:05
I just can't believe that quote has been repeated again.

-T10

I presume that I've missed something in the discussion? To the original question there can be no doubt, can it?

Griefbringer
30-04-2007, 09:07
They fight with two handweapons and doesn't have three arms. They cannot get bonus from HW/S.

Not to mention that (rules-wise) the EG do not have shields to begin with, though you are allowed to model them with any number of shields and arms and legs you want.