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View Full Version : wild riders- is it just me?



therisnosaurus
04-08-2005, 02:42
or are they just insanely good. +2 pts over glade riders for +1 strength, ws and leadership, light armor, 5+ nonmagic wardsave, 6+ wardsave, MR (1), +1 attack on second and consequtive turns of combat, immune to psychology, cause fear on charge and magical attacks. all for the loss of a longbow (oh noes). they can even flee from the charge (I see no rule to the contrary, I don't think immune to psychology means you can't, but i could be wrong)

okay, so admittedly glade riders are a little overpriced (about 2-3 points) but at the ammount of extras these guys get they should easily be an extra 10 points. they hit almost as hard as chaos knights (+cause fear) and are better in consecutive turns of combat. they also move 9", matched only by dragon princes, who are nowhere near as good in anything other than save. add to all this that they are STILL fast cavalry, and you have, quite easily, the best cavalry in the game. hands down, for impact, manoeverability and interestingly, survivability. that massive movement, fast cavalry and the wardsave means that while they can't take as much punishment as heavy cav, they don't have to, a good player shouldn't expose them to more than 1 or 2 missile attacks before they charge, and their 3+ equivalent save vs mundane will probably keep them safe.


so, what's other people's opinions on these chaps? I'm gonna have at least 2 units of 10 in my army, what about all the other WE players out there?

taer
04-08-2005, 03:50
Immune to Psych does indeed mean you are barred from fleeing as a charge reaction.

therisnosaurus
04-08-2005, 06:47
interesting

I never read charge reactions as part of the psychology section... could we have an 'official' ruling here?

taer
04-08-2005, 07:13
Page 112 of the BRB under the "Immune to Psychology" special rule..."Troops immune to psychology may never flee as a charge reaction-they are far too proud and brave to do this!"

Gabacho Mk.II
04-08-2005, 08:33
you know, I kinda suspected that the WE book will have at least a few units that are clearly 'broken'...


I dont believe that I need to say more on this topic, since this thread has made my point...

therisnosaurus
04-08-2005, 10:17
interesting, you learn something new every day. oh well, that makes them slightly less GODLIKE, but they are still hands down the best cav around barring gobbo wolf riders

Mars
04-08-2005, 10:25
I don't know their point cost or their rules, but they don't seem that hard to me

T4 (?) and a low ward save means they're easy targets for my massed repeater crossbow fire. and 1 or 2 turns is all I need, believe me

they're expensive and they're pretty easy to kill, which justifies a lower point cost

my Cold One Knights also hit pretty hard, cause fear, etc... but they've also got a 2+ armour save, which makes them resilient to the average strength attacks

Cenyu
04-08-2005, 10:43
Their toughness is 3.

RBT salves should waste them pretty well.

Magic would ignore their 5+ ward but they have MR 1.

Crube
04-08-2005, 10:54
I'm going to wait and see before passing judgements on whether they're 'broken' or not. Yes, they do appear to be very good, and I will be looking at including some in my Wood Elf army, but I feel it's too eraly to tell once and for all.

i remember when the Dark Riders first came out, they were classed as incredibly good, and they are, but now people have learnt how to deal with them more effectively, they dont instill the abject fear they used to.

I think the same will happen here...I could be proved wrong though - you never know...

raged_norm
04-08-2005, 15:20
Here we go with new army syndrome! XXXX unit is broken, this needs a fix.

anyway they donlt seem to bad at all to me, paper thin armour, and the ward is only 5+ which mena 2/3 will die (dicehammer) and only T3, sure they are fast but if the hit anything with staying power on their own they're toast

therisnosaurus
04-08-2005, 23:05
you forget the key difference between wild riders and most heavy cavalry. they move 18" and are FAST CAVALRY. this means that against any decent player, you will probably get less than a full round of shooting before they hit you, and as they move 18" they will out charge any other heavy cavalry in the game excepting only dragon princes, and few enough people take HE these days anyhow. saying 'well my repeater bolt throwers and archers will take them down' is kinda foolish against wood elves. warhawks. waywatchers. alters. longbowmen. need I say more.? further, some players will learn to shield their riders with dryads, whose skirmishing, t4 and 5+ ward will make them an insane target and keep the wild riders safe.

Note that I'm not saying their broken, I'm just saying they are going to be the 'make and break' unit of WE rather than gladeguard. they are fairly costed for the army, but in a balanced army, wild riders will rape their way through pretty much anything. as for cold one knights, well, I cause fear on the charge too, and I'll be charging YOU. not only that, but cold one knights cost an extra 3 points, don't have the magic resistance and are less effective in protracted combats. Lastly, they're 0-1.

also, a 5+ sv and 5+ ward means that they have the equivalent of about a 4.5+ save (halfway between 3 and 4+) add to this that the latter part of that save is still effective against cannon, bolt throwers, strength 7 chaos lords and so forth, unlike other heavy cavalry, I'd say that, overall, wild riders save is about as good as other heavy cavalry (while slightly less effective against strength 3-6 hits, it's actually better against strength 7+)

samw
05-08-2005, 00:07
Wild Riders will be countered in the same way as any other cavalry unit. Either bait and switch or the more direct mathod, simply confront them with something harder. Ironbreakers, chaos warriors, big blocks of Brets, stubborn/unbreakable units etc. They are actually worse than Bretonnian pegasus knights, and those, though hard, are far from unbeatable.

therisnosaurus
05-08-2005, 04:37
yes, the normal. however, wood elves are a very specialised army and I doubt the standard tactics will work against them. as most of the WE troops are skirmishers, bait and switch won't work, as they can manoever to set up a charge that CANNOT be switched. with a charge range of 18" the wild riders can feasably charge from long range and be out of switch range- move 9, and against 8" movement armies they're fine :). Not only this, but the wild riders are fast cav, and so can spin around into the flank so the only thing you can do is manoever so you get hit in the front next turn (as if you flee, they'll probably both cut you down and over-run into the unit that was supposed to be the switch). stubborn doesn't work most of the time as they cause fear on the charge so really the only effective speed bump is unbreakables, and they're manoueverable enough to evade pretty much every unbreakable apart from swarms.... bitchy...

I think they're just an average cavalry unit in combat, but they CANNOT be countered, that's what makes them so darn nasty. they have an answer to everything you throw at em, whether it be artillery, magic, shooting or combat (WardSave, MagicResistance, evade and evade respectively). It's going to be interesting to see how they go. If people use them as heavy cav, they'll die. if people use them as light cav, they won't make their points back. it's gonna have to be a mix of the two, which shall be interesting to say the least

Muffin Man
05-08-2005, 06:20
Actually, clearing up tarpits could be one of their uses. Sure they're expensive and all, but they won't do well against really tough opponents and obvious targets will probably be more carefully defended by your opponent. Since WR's get so many attacks in non-charging rounds, they can really make a mess of things like swarms, small zombie/skellie units, ect. Clearing up those unbreakable flanks could be something they're well suited to doing.

But I don't know the points cost so I dunno if this'll really be worth their time.

taer
05-08-2005, 09:20
I think they're just an average cavalry unit in combat, but they CANNOT be countered, that's what makes them so darn nasty. they have an answer to everything you throw at em, whether it be artillery, magic, shooting or combat (WardSave, MagicResistance, evade and evade respectively).


Now that's just silly! Of course they can be countered! Baiting and switching with infantry cavalry combinations is very effective since they cannot flee from a charge. Plus, their manueverability isn't unstoppable. First, they can be march blocked, just as any other non-skirmishing unit can. Second, there are faster things out there (fliers and mounted daemonettes), and they are non-too impossible to counter. Also, despite having this 5+ daemonic ward save every one is huffing about, a good deal of the wounds they will suffer will either reduce their regular armor save to a 6+ or eliminate it (I go with Strength 4 as the overall mean attack strength in Warhammer), and after that only 1/3 of the wounds will be saved. Skirmishing archers are also going to be a terrible bane for these guys as their manueverability will rarely see them outside of a bow-armed skirmishers 360 degree line of sight. Also consider that if the unit is hitting you on turn two, then it will have to be engaging you to the front unless you royally screwed up, in which case you deserve what you get. That either means they will be seperated without support from the rest of the army, or that you will have at least 2 rounds of shooting to deal with them, which for their points should be considered a priority. And finally, stone-thrower like attacks that use a template will be just as bad news for the wild riders as they are for any other unit of cavalry in the game (Well, almost...more like 2/3 effective), while mortars will be of even more use than against other cavalry and dwarven stone-throwers with runes will absolutely murder them. Way too many people are overly afraid of the Wild Riders.

Zeb
05-08-2005, 09:37
not only that, but cold one knights cost an extra 3 points, don't have the magic resistance and are less effective in protracted combats. Lastly, they're 0-1.


Cold you point that reference out, since I have had Druchii three books, and noone has pointed out 0-1, unless you play the City Garrision list.:rolleyes:


On the subject, all heavy cav that you do compare them with has the opportunity to get ranks, which should be included in the equation as well.

Sure they are good, but it will still hurt when people shoot at them.

And taer has made a good point for the rest of the case. ;)

therisnosaurus
05-08-2005, 09:51
as I was saying, when you take the rest of the WE army into consideration, it's not that simple. take your artillery solution for example. if I get the first turn, you have no artillery, that simple. 2 units of waywatchers and a unit of scouts make sure of that. march blockers? can march blockers stand up to glade riders, dryads and glade guard? they'd have to be pretty darn tough... and march blockers tend not to be. there are also very few fliers that will be able to effectively charge them and win, as they'll have the outnumber and standard and are more than a little good in CC themselves. bait and switch doesn't work mostly because they are fast cav. they will not charge as you want them to, they'll simply move to a point where even if you re manouever, you're going to get one or both of your units charged next turn. I agree that skirmishing archers will be nasty, but, well, all of about 4 races get them (empire, HE, DE, and WE) and they ain't that common in the first two of those

essentialy, the key is to understand that WE have the best disruptive army in the game, maybe barring lizardmen, who get theirs cheaper. waywatchers will own your artillery, unless you have more than 3 or so pieces of it, or a hellblaster/organ gun, warhawks and glade riders will marchblock and (in my army at least) you'll have a spellweaver dancing around in the middle of your army with howler wind halving your movement if I'm lucky. if you just sit there and make sure that your bait and switch works, you'll have about 60 archers capping you each turn as well.

BY THEMSELVES wild riders are probably only just worth their points, but in the context of their army which can rapidly annhaialate any effective counter to them (barring skirmishing archers maybe) they absolutely pwn.

that said, I don't expect most gamers to use them to their full capacity, nor do I expect to be able to use them effectively without a couple of months of testing and fooling around with them, so unlike the other heavy cavalry, they aren't 'point and slap' weapons, they are tactical nukes, not full atomic bombs.

therisnosaurus
05-08-2005, 09:52
oh, and I stand corrected on the DE list for cold one knights, I was indeed becoming confused with them and the city garrison, my appologies

General Failure
05-08-2005, 12:07
They seem a really nice unit to me , and not overpriced ... even in comparison with the glade riders.
I think the GR are also worth their points and have many uses that are not overwritten by the Wild Riders ... be able to do full move march with elven steeds and shooting without penalty with a longbow (included in the package ;) look at the Dark Riders for example and how much they cost when u equip them with Xbows ... double shot yes but less range and movement penalty.

Wild Riders strike with the strenght of a heavy cavalry but with the superior movement and tactics of a light cavalry ... againts light S3 missiles they got 2 5+ saves, and against high str attacks they save almost like any other heavy cavalry with their ward save. They cope well with the glade riders, and can be played like a heavy cavalry with superior tactics and an unique wood style.

Mazze
05-08-2005, 13:39
Well after seeing the new Wild riders in action just a few days ago i have to say they are really easy to take down with baiting..and shooting and some times magic too...even tho they have Mr 1.

Use light cavalry for baiting try to get them into firing arcs...even small amounts of missilke fire will cause alot of damage on the 26pts/model Wild riders.

taer
05-08-2005, 23:29
as I was saying, when you take the rest of the WE army into consideration, it's not that simple. take your artillery solution for example. if I get the first turn, you have no artillery, that simple. 2 units of waywatchers and a unit of scouts make sure of that. march blockers?can march blockers stand up to glade riders, dryads and glade guard? they'd have to be pretty darn tough... and march blockers tend not to be. there are also very few fliers that will be able to effectively charge them and win, as they'll have the outnumber and standard and are more than a little good in CC themselves. bait and switch doesn't work mostly because they are fast cav. they will not charge as you want them to, they'll simply move to a point where even if you re manouever, you're going to get one or both of your units charged next turn. I agree that skirmishing archers will be nasty, but, well, all of about 4 races get them (empire, HE, DE, and WE) and they ain't that common in the first two of those

essentialy, the key is to understand that WE have the best disruptive army in the game, maybe barring lizardmen, who get theirs cheaper. waywatchers will own your artillery, unless you have more than 3 or so pieces of it, or a hellblaster/organ gun, warhawks and glade riders will marchblock and (in my army at least) you'll have a spellweaver dancing around in the middle of your army with howler wind halving your movement if I'm lucky. if you just sit there and make sure that your bait and switch works, you'll have about 60 archers capping you each turn as well.

BY THEMSELVES wild riders are probably only just worth their points, but in the context of their army which can rapidly annhaialate any effective counter to them (barring skirmishing archers maybe) they absolutely pwn.

that said, I don't expect most gamers to use them to their full capacity, nor do I expect to be able to use them effectively without a couple of months of testing and fooling around with them, so unlike the other heavy cavalry, they aren't 'point and slap' weapons, they are tactical nukes, not full atomic bombs.


Ok....apparently you beleive that no matter what Wood elves will be in prime position to do whatever they are meant to do....Which is as asinine to say that as any aother army in the game. Wood elves are definitely a finess army and one mistake can easily cripple them due to their high fragility.

proximity
06-08-2005, 04:24
Play some games with them, they really are quite fragile - it depends somewhat on what terrain is available, theyre also pretty damn expensive. Magic carves them too.theyre not quite as good in practice as they are on paper.

LaughinGremlin
06-08-2005, 04:32
I agree that skirmishing archers will be nasty, but, well, all of about 4 races get them (empire, HE, DE, and WE) and they ain't that common in the first two of those


Brets can have skirmishing archers, skinks can be a pain, and who could forget about Lumpin Croop?! :rolleyes:

I'll be using various centaur models for my wild riders someday, because they are sylvan, yet look more different than the basic elf light cavalry.

Muffin Man
06-08-2005, 06:39
Wild Riders strike with the strenght of a heavy cavalry but with the superior movement and tactics of a light cavalry ... againts light S3 missiles they got 2 5+ saves, and against high str attacks they save almost like any other heavy cavalry with their ward save. They cope well with the glade riders, and can be played like a heavy cavalry with superior tactics and an unique wood style.

That's a really good point, against the normal stuff you'd throw at heavy cav, the Wild Riders will do better, as ignore AS weapons can't cancel that ward (or is it the magic weapons cancel it one?) But flank shots with bolt throwers and cannons will definitely hurt them less than it will heavy cav. The WR's really provide a challenge for generals on both sides since they are so unlike anything else in out there.

Hannibal
06-08-2005, 09:51
Well, I only know them from reading the book. But IMO they have some nice special rules that seem to be overlooked here:
- Give them a character and that banner that let the opponet roll one less dice for fleeing distance. Make the unit large enough to soak up some fire and you now have a nice semi-breaker that causes fear on the 18" charge. Break through the enemies lines and donīt care about manoeverability - they are still fast cav.
- Use smaller units to harass the enemy. If the opponent tries to form a bait, who cares? Move around that bait and go in a position whrer you can have a flank charge. Smile and say: Your turn.
- Use some 5 men GR units to screen and to hharass the opponent.
- Use those warhawks and eagles too and you have a pretty nice fast moving, highly manoeverable army.
- Have in mind that a lot of succesfull Dark Elves armies work exactly this way. And they would be happy if they could have such an unit like Wild Riders.

Hannibal

vincengetorix
08-08-2005, 03:29
I certainly sounds like WE are going to be one of those two-faced armies, like Daemonic Legions. Give it to an average or shudder novice player and the army is going to get mopped up, but in the hands of a seasoned veteran it turns into a powerhouse. Of course, every army is better in the hands of a veteran, but some just can't be played well at all without experience and tactical flair.

I also like the idea of teleporting units of WR around the board from forest to forest with that enchanted item ... whatsit ... (darn, the name escapes me. Tree Tardis? No. Veil of Leafness? ... nope. Ah well, someone else will remember). Having a unit of 10 WR show up behind your lines would me more than a little inconvenient (provided there isn't a restriction on the item that I am unaware of).

Cheers, V

Zeb
08-08-2005, 05:03
One use only... is the restriction.

Moonstone of Hidden Ways.

paulsk
08-08-2005, 06:37
I don't think the WR are broken, but they do seem like a very good deal to me. They are fast and brutal, perfect WE unit, and they will certainly be more devastating than my old spear armed chronicles glade riders. Tentative plans are for two units of 10.

therisnosaurus
08-08-2005, 23:13
not broken, and I wish people would stop using that bloody MTG term, broken cards often get BANNED in magic, and I have yet to see GW get rid of an 'overpowered' unit in anything other than a total army revision. They are maybe a little undercosted (2-3pts) but, as people have pointed out, are insanely fragile and lack survivability. However, as has been pointed out multiple times already, they are going to be the type of unit that any moderate to rookie player is going to think a waste of points, because they get slaughtered if used as conventional heavy cav, and experts are going to generaly get twice or three times their points back with them, as they know how to keep the magic and missiles off their back and how to position them to beat the bait and switch

feintstar
09-08-2005, 08:03
Hang on though, a rookie player will read those rules and go WOW!!! I want 4 units!!!

Now, he knows that they're fast cav, and can get flank and rear charges more easily. He knows that he should have a go at doing so.

Now, because he has multiple units, (which are only giong to be 6 man each - no use in rank bonuses - hence moderately affordable) you could deal with one or maybe 2 with bait and swotch, but more? Eventually you're gonna have these nutcases, led by high powered WE lords, rampaging through your lines, regardless of how crap your opponent is, and how cleverly you've baited, swotched and countercharged. (plus, noting the apparent irrelevance of shooting in many armies, this kind of manuverability will be with impunity)

While that's going to be expensive, it will be so horribly worth it that I can't see many newb wood elves resisting it. I am probably one of them :)

Frankly
09-08-2005, 14:55
T3, light armour .... they still suffer from the curse of being elves.

Zeb
09-08-2005, 14:57
But they can be made etherials...;)

Frankly
09-08-2005, 15:00
well ... thats changes everything to my 70 handgunners .... :)

Xenageo
09-08-2005, 21:43
well ... thats changes everything to my 70 handgunners .... :)

since your 70 handgunners well, couldn't hurt them if they were -- yes. yes it does.

On a side note, though. Wild riders are superb, and while not hugely resilient, a couple of units in the hands of even a relatively inexperienced player will do massive damage.

Naghaz
10-08-2005, 03:57
My understanding is they cannot attack while Etheral thus, if they declare a charge they become solid again, and the handgunners get a stand and fire.

feintstar
10-08-2005, 04:25
Or he could just move to within 9" of your gunners unit, or he could charge from the flank using insane manuverability.

Zeb
10-08-2005, 04:40
It stops when you end up in combat, not when you declare that you want into combat. Thats a huge difference. And it can be dispelled...

2ndCompanyVeterans
10-08-2005, 09:17
Hi guys
Thought I would add a few things here about Wood Elves I play with them and so far experience has taught me the following.

Auto hit weapons are really good against woods elves no longer do you have units that can shoot but not be shot at. So an organ gun, Volley gun comicly a steam tank (no nasty game winning acorn anymore) or similar units are very nasty they will negate all of their. You can get round them but it's harder work than it was. It's worth noting that 9/10 those auto hit units negate most armour saves that the wood elf army has.

The treemans reduction in movement does not seem a lot but you will feel it, Though the strangel root attack seems abit good by my standards. Because units keep dodging him I have starting using him like a walking pillbox.

A lot of people have not noticed that wildriders have thier talismanic tatoo save (can't use both but if ones negated you can stil fall to the other) which stopped skaven warp lightning evaporating the unit it still took nasty casulties but enough survived to charge and kill the engineer in the unit.

The alterkindred was a gaming winning unit that I used to crush very elite units like chosen knights of chaos, Pack him in a bow of Loren,Arcane bodkins,great weapon and the senemy strikes last ammulet (even if he has special rules to go first) I stood him in front of 6 chosen knight of Khorne he shot and killed one stood and shot killed another, then jobbed 2 in combat with his great weapon the other 2 fled and were predictably chased down. This character is a bit good but not invincable.

You find people taking a lot of lore of fire against wood elves with the Tree kin an dtreeman being able to burn they can be toasted quite quickly. Magic offense for me has dropped greatly I find some strong defence is the best way I like to have 2 combat characters in my army now.

Got to be careful with the charges the biggest previous complaint was the comedy flee all the time to negate charges has now gone as more that 2 thirds of your combat units dont have this option.

There is a good mix of hit and run troops and combat troops so your opponent gets to play a game of wrahammer rather than 40k. If anybody has some armylist they want to share feel free to post/send them to me as I am still building up the force I want to have in the end 3000-4000 points in total.

Thanks for reading

athamas
10-08-2005, 09:27
WE suffer from low strenght magic missiles, as they are mostly T3 with no to little save against it!

i could see father of the thorn doing alot of damage to them!