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View Full Version : Poll : LR's .. worth the 250+ ?



WoW_Auron
27-04-2007, 05:43
Something i've been thinking alot about for a hell of a long time now. Are LR's worth the points you pay for them?

I can't help but look past the sheer size of it, the impressiveness of it and all the other cool stuff it has on offer and see only the damn points cost for one of these things. I figure i put that down, it will be shot to bits, Armour 14 sure. But i don't think it'l take much to pull this monstrisity down.

So im wondering, who plays them? against who? when do you not take a LR and finally, how they have performed for people over the years.

EDIT :: Sorry, this was unclear, due to lack of sleep and yet another all-nighter. I did also mean to include Crusaders. It was more a LR in general as their is a whole 15pts inbetween the two ::

RavenMorpheus
27-04-2007, 05:45
Something i've been thinking alot about for a hell of a long time now. Are LR's worth the points you pay for them?

I can't help but look past the sheer size of it, the impressiveness of it and all the other cool stuff it has on offer and see only the damn points cost for one of these things. I figure i put that down, it will be shot to bits, Armour 14 sure. But i don't think it'l take much to pull this monstrisity down.

So im wondering, who plays them? against who? when do you not take a LR and finally, how they have performed for people over the years.

I use them, I've also fought against them and all I can say is it's a gamble, one week it may last a turn, the next week it may last the whole game against the same army - I've had games where I've fired 4 or more lascannons per turn at one and always ended up getting crew stunned results. :wtf:

The Orange
27-04-2007, 06:04
It's a duralbe tank, and that's saying something when it comes from a Tau player. I've seen is successfully deliver assault troops (a chaplian is pretty much all you need) and crush my entire army. I've seen troops waste thier shooting for 5 turns because they failed TP tests. I count a game against a LR successful if my HS choices (all of them) can successfully keep a LR from doing much of anything, meaning if I can at least keep it from shooting up my army, or moving in and dropping the assault bombs. Many-a-game I have seen my railguns do nothing but hold a LR at bay, both side ultimatley just creating a stalemate.

starlight
27-04-2007, 06:21
Effective? Yes.
Overpriced? Yes, by about 50pts in my books.

Mantan
27-04-2007, 06:24
Land raiders are nice, powerful models. From a practicality stadpoint I tend to think the Land Raider crusader to be the better choice because it can fire all weapons while moving. On the other hand it isn't really that impressive when compared to something like a monolith (which I believe is less points), which is practically unstoppable unless you have an anti-tank army.

lord_blackfang
27-04-2007, 06:57
The standard LR certainly isn't. Haven't used mine in years.

WoW_Auron
27-04-2007, 07:13
On the other hand it isn't really that impressive when compared to something like a monolith (which I believe is less points), which is practically unstoppable unless you have an anti-tank army.

Correct, Monolith = 235.

Onisuzume
27-04-2007, 07:41
Imo, it's worth it.
Mobile cover for my terminators that happens to have anti-tank weapons.
What's not to like? (go on! waste your plasma weapons on my LR! I dare you!)

And since both patterns cost the same; I could easily change the weapons on it and have fun against GEQs. (yes, bs2 assault cannon at it)

alex03
27-04-2007, 07:41
For me it was a close No. A land raider can do great, depending on a lot of factors. Which army you play agianst really matters a lot with them. With a land raider you pay a premium for that all over armor 14, so when you play armies that have an easy time with armor, like Eldar and Tau, that expensive armor 14 doesn't help. Rending and Necron gaus flayers havn't helped its survivability either.

On the other hand if you randomly included one every so often and your opponet insn't fully prepared for it, it can rampage across the board the whole game.

I used to take a land raider crusader to rogue trader tournies because it was painted and filled out my army to 1500 points. Sometimes it did ok, sometimes was a total waste of points. I ALWAYS wished I had something else.

starlight
27-04-2007, 07:45
The only one I'd consider is the Crusader or *maybe* the Prometheus in larger games.

BrainFireBob
27-04-2007, 07:47
Depends on a couple of factors. In general, no, so I answered that.

In large enough games, and in multiples, they *can* be devastating.

Now the Crusader, that's a different story.

One_Second_of_Insanity
27-04-2007, 07:48
it was a close yes for me i have used them as good reliable mobile cover in my deathwing and they offer me some nice long range anti-tank, it really does as alex03 said depend on what army you face, but hey so does almost any other choice in 40k and thats a good thing right?

for me it comes down to: will it fill a noticeable gap in my army? if yes then take it if no then dont

Ianos
27-04-2007, 08:07
There is no question to it, deploy 12", turn, move 12", pop smoke, thats only glancing hits to AV14. Then move 12", fire all guns, deploy more than 5"(termies) and assault 6" with the benefit of grenades. You can virtually bring any powerful unit to cover the table in 2 turns and have immense firepower to support it even if stunned and all you really have to watch out is meltas and lances. 250 points is at least what its really worth, maybe even less than what it should really cost.

Vaktathi
27-04-2007, 08:13
Personally I like the Crusader far better than the normal Land Raider. roughly the same anti-tank abiltiy at 24" (assault cannon +multimelta, especially when moving) and far better anti-infantry in addition to the frag grenades for assaulting.

I think both are a little over-priced, but the normal Land Raider especially so.

Occulto
27-04-2007, 08:34
Then move 12", fire all guns,

Um... unless a LR's been updated to a fast vehicle without me noticing, how do you move 12" and fire all the guns?

Sauron90
27-04-2007, 08:52
I dont have a land raider. But Im planning on getting a crusader. The normal is nice but the crusader realy shines.

It can move 6 inches and fire: twin linked AC 6 twin linked bolters 1 multi melta. and a pintle mounted storm bolter if you add it.

if a normal land raider move 6 inches it can fire one lascannon.

Plus that crusader can transport 8 terminators. (Starting to think about 7 assault terminators and a chaplain).

And yes Land Raider crusaders can NOT move 12 inches and fire all weapons. Since they arent fast.

DarthSte
27-04-2007, 09:00
I like them. Only use them in high PV games, or when I have a specific game plan needing an armour convoy or such.

KITS AND BITS
27-04-2007, 10:52
land raiders are just cool , can you imagine the size of the beast if it was built to true life scale ? they should do that , the usa military would buy them !they would be the size of a semi detached house !

Tymell
27-04-2007, 10:58
For me it was a close No. A land raider can do great, depending on a lot of factors. Which army you play agianst really matters a lot with them. With a land raider you pay a premium for that all over armor 14, so when you play armies that have an easy time with armor, like Eldar and Tau, that expensive armor 14 doesn't help. Rending and Necron gaus flayers havn't helped its survivability either.

On the other hand if you randomly included one every so often and your opponet insn't fully prepared for it, it can rampage across the board the whole game.

I'll go with that and vote a close no too, the above basically summarises it for me. I never fully trust tanks, because they can always potentially die in one hit. Okay, it's got to be a good one for a Land Raider, but for some armies it's not too hard, and bang goes a lot of points and a crucial part of your strategy.

If you come up against someone not to ready for it, it can be useful. But even then, it only actually has 2 S9 shot and 3 S5 shots per turn (ignoring possible upgrades). I've noticed when playing against it that I'm inherently afraid of it, but when it comes down to it it rarely actually does a lot.

The Crusader I'd be more tempted to say yes on, since it has a great capacity and more effective weapons: the storm bolters are often better at cutting down hordes than the heavy bolters, and we already know that the assault cannon is better at taking out tanks than a lascannon, given the current rules.

EDIT: I also notice it's currently 50-50 on the votes. A close run thing indeed.

Gen.Steiner
27-04-2007, 11:12
In my opinion? Yes. AV14 all round plus some lethal weapons fits and the machine spirit makes for a hell of a nasty tank.

Darkhorse
27-04-2007, 11:18
It is worth it as a terminator transport system, as such the weponry is irrelavent as you aren't going to be firing, (certainly not enough to make the points back) The alternative is teleporting with the reserves rule which neuters your termies for the first 3 turns at least.
It certainly isn't the "Ultimate Tank", but a damn good taxi so your termies can be making that battle winning assault.
If you want a tank to shoot take a Pred or Razorback.

starlight
27-04-2007, 11:22
In a high point game I *might* consider an LRC, but in the vast majority of games, I'll take three Razorbacks instead.

eyeolas
27-04-2007, 11:22
The only reason to take one is as a termy or HQ transport. Other wise, no, never

Tymell
27-04-2007, 11:52
The alternative is teleporting with the reserves rule which neuters your termies for the first 3 turns at least.

True, but even riding in a Land Raider they're going to be neutered for one/two turns too, so the difference isn't that drastic. And the Land Raider could be taken out, both forcing the termies to walk and potentially harming them, no such problem with depp striking.

EDIT: Depp striking? Whoops, I meant the terminators teleporting in with deep strike. Depp striking would, I'd imagine, involve sailing in on the antennas of their tanks and stepping off, covered in jewellry and baggy clothes while causing any women on the battlefield to swoon. A new rule for rogue trader or Eldar pirate forces maybe? :p

logosloki
27-04-2007, 11:59
I find it barely worth it. I voted yes in the end.

sure its 250 points but if you don't get first turn and you have one on board what do you think your opponent is going to aim its heavier pieces at?

and if they don't whats going to aim at their heavy pieces when it comes round to your shoot phase?

If you play games over 2000pts its worth it as either A) termie transport (LRC) B) heavy support (LR) C) psychological paperweight

The Dark One
27-04-2007, 12:04
i think they are both a pile of poo, they are lovely models but thats it.
i would rather take 5 rhinos or some predators, and i don't think terminators need a transport

superknijn
27-04-2007, 12:19
It's between 'barely' and 'almost'.
The full AV14 armour alone makes it cost about 160, after which you get the weapons (50 points at the minimum) and the assault ramp. It's just that there are other, more points-effective options. 'Worth the points' sounds very competitve, 'under- or overcosted for what it does' less so.

Flinch
27-04-2007, 12:51
<snip> Depp striking? Whoops, I meant the terminators teleporting in with deep strike. Depp striking would, I'd imagine, involve sailing in on the antennas of their tanks and stepping off, covered in jewellry and baggy clothes while causing any women on the battlefield to swoon. A new rule for rogue trader or Eldar pirate forces maybe? :p

*yoink* I knew i'd find my sig somewhere on this board ;)

As to the Land Raiders.. i have 2:
1 LRC for Daemonhunter Terminator Transport
1 Standard Land Raider... Autographed by Jes Goodwin on the underside of the hull... I'll get around to finishing the paint job one day... needs highlighting and weapon detail...

As for their usage, most of the time in 1500 points or more i'll field the glorified transport. The Autographed one only sees friendly games when i want to show it off.. ;)

I call it my 'glorified decoy'.. as long as my opponent pays more attention to it than the rest of my army, I'm doing well...

wickedvoodoo
27-04-2007, 13:34
For killing tanks it seems 2 las preds would be better.
For killing infantry it seems 2 dectructor preds would be better.

250pts is an awful lot for something that can go pop in 1 shot, but i am biased against all vehicles. Drop the crusader to 210 maybe 220 pts then i would say it was worth it, the regular ones shouldnt cost any more than 200 ever.

superknijn
27-04-2007, 13:47
Land Raiders can be destroyed in one shot, but that's A: not very likely with AV14 all-round, and B: goes so for all vehicles. A Lasgun can kill a Terminator, but it's not very likely. If the vehicle damage table would be a bit more forgiving, the Land Raider and vehicles in general would be really worth their points. Lowering the points doesn't solve the problem, it only eliminates some symptoms.

machine_recovered_meat
27-04-2007, 13:59
Perhaps if the vehicle damage table was spread across a 2d6 roll for both glancing & penetrating, with maybe the lowest results causing only superficial/cosmetic damage [not a problem to most but disastrous for Eldar? ;) ]
it'd make vehicles more survivable.

I like my Land Raider. It does what I need of it, and has yet to be destroyed.

IAMNOTHERE
27-04-2007, 13:59
I run 2 LR and an LRC in 1500 pts with 30 traited marines.

Its a really intimidating sight and has a win/loss ratio of 7/3. Most people only take a few guns capeable of dealing easily with AV14 as its not that common so a large portion of enemy shooting is wasted.

I would never take one by itself though. Too obvious.

thorgrim
27-04-2007, 14:10
Its a great vehicle and its worth the cost just for its durability and flexability.

Ianos
27-04-2007, 14:20
Um... unless a LR's been updated to a fast vehicle without me noticing, how do you move 12" and fire all the guns?

Woops!:angel:

Templar Ben
27-04-2007, 14:46
Imo, it's worth it.
Mobile cover for my terminators that happens to have anti-tank weapons.
What's not to like? (go on! waste your plasma weapons on my LR! I dare you!)

And since both patterns cost the same; I could easily change the weapons on it and have fun against GEQs. (yes, bs2 assault cannon at it)

They only cost the same to DA.

Bloodknight
27-04-2007, 15:03
The LRC yes, the standard LR not so much. I voted no, because as a Chaos player I cannot use the LRC and the normal LR is worse than a Pred at AT and lacks transport ability (I play DeathGuard and as I cannot fit a Lord with 6 Termies as retinue into it, mine almost never sees the battlefield).Itīs also got a big bullseye on it, as it is very expensive by itself and the unit inside is often even more expensive.

Egaeus
27-04-2007, 15:20
I had to say no, but it's mainly due to the fact that it can vary in effectiveness so wildly (at least one other poster mentioned this).

I suppose that it also depends heavily on the scale of the games you play and what else you have in your army. If you play 1000-1500 point games then it's a pretty massive chunk of your army. If you tend to play more 1800-2000 points (or more) then it's not such a big investment (percentagewise), plus you're more likely to have multiple other intimidating targets for the enemy to shoot at.

I guess my major issue with the Land Raider is that it seems that you're meant to be paying for the whole package, but whatever role you use it in you're not using it to full potential. Use it as a heavily armored transport (with the understanding that you are using it to full effect and moving 12" per turn) and those guns are going to waste. Use it as a MBT and its transport capacity isn't being utilized.

I guess the issue would really be "if it were cheaper, how much?" I personally have thought that if it were around 200 points it would be perfect, but that may actually make it a bit too attractive. Thus the high points cost keeps it the "rarer" unit that it is likely meant to be.

Locke
27-04-2007, 15:58
with the next gen rule set for predators placing them at 160 points for all las, land raiders are closer to point competition from a cost and performance standpoint.

just like everything, they can die in one hit or make it thorugh unscathed an entire game facing 8 lascannons

Champsguy
27-04-2007, 16:20
No, they're not worth it. While they may do well in individual games with individual circumstances, you never see them in tourney lists. They should cost about 200 - that would make them worth it.

Stella Cadente
27-04-2007, 16:24
No wai!

no the basic Land raider ain't worth squat, the only one worse than it is the Helios, if you want an armour 14 beast take the crusader or the Prometheus, don't waste you money and points on the basic model

TwistedDarkness
27-04-2007, 16:24
One of my friends has a Land Raider Crusader and it has borne his Blood Angels into the thick of my Death Guard time and again, all while taking fire from two Lascannon Predators and sometimes Meltagun Havocs.

However, for Daemonhunters, do not get a Land Raider Crusader! The Assault Cannon does not rend for DH!

Onisuzume
27-04-2007, 17:28
They only cost the same to DA.
And guess what I play? DA ofcourse.

land raiders are just cool , can you imagine the size of the beast if it was built to true life scale ? they should do that , the usa military would buy them !they would be the size of a semi detached house !
Imperial Armour Volume 2 puts it at roughly 10m long, roughly 6m wide and about 4m high.

So no, I don't think that it'll fit in my garage. (or on the street out front for that matter)

Cosmic_Girl
27-04-2007, 18:05
Depends on the army its in and the pts limit of the game. BT's, yes, BA's yes, more than 1500 pts yes. Any method for reliably delivering assault troops quickly to where they're needed in assault based armies is good provided its not taking up a large portion of your pts. Plus the LR hits its targets fairly reliably even with machine spirit guiding the lascannons so it can engage enemy armour pretty well. Plus, armour 14 is pretty hard to crack. You generally need to have big guns or be very close.

C-girl.

Grand Warlord
27-04-2007, 18:20
They are nice ... but I never use them, so im kinda 50/50 on them

exsulis
27-04-2007, 18:22
Its worth its points on paper but in reality it gets blown up too quickly due to the large number of armies have a boat load of deadly weapons.

Democratus
27-04-2007, 18:23
Since the poll specifically asked about Land Raiders and not Land Raider Crusaders - I'll have to say no.

exsulis
27-04-2007, 18:27
One of my friends has a Land Raider Crusader and it has borne his Blood Angels into the thick of my Death Guard time and again, all while taking fire from two Lascannon Predators and sometimes Meltagun Havocs.

However, for Daemonhunters, do not get a Land Raider Crusader! The Assault Cannon does not rend for DH!

Was the assault cannon updated in the BBB? Yes, so now it rends. As I recall before the GW forums went down the unoffical faq listed GK as being allowed to take the crusader at the listed C:SM price.

Leonidas300
27-04-2007, 19:07
One of the biggest disadvantage of the Land Raider and the Crusader is placing it on the board. If you get it as a Heavy Support then you have to put it down first. Your opponent will put everything as far away from it as possible or put down some bait for it and then array his army where he will get shots at it if he gets first round. It's much better when used as a dedicated transport for HQ, but then it's none scoring.

Also off topic, smoke launchers should be able to be used more than once, and be used on your first round if you don't get to go first, or be bought multiple times.

daladzor
27-04-2007, 19:16
actually a land raider is a scoring unit,
its is formidable, rad the rules for it

TheSanityAssassin
27-04-2007, 19:16
Depends on what you face regularly I think. When I had my Dark Angels and mostly fought other marines or Guard I loved having it....walk forward and deliver my Deathwing with Librarian and rip things to bits. Now that I play my Eldar I love seeing them across the table. Generally between my lances and Fire Dragon squad they don't last turn two, if that. That said, while 85% of the time they're free points to me, the games when I haven't been able to drop them, they can cause alot of trouble. I played a chaos player with a very upgraded Land Raider, and it was just miserable.

Still, I voted no...I might take one if I was fighting a specific opponant, but in an all comers at a tourney, not a chance.

El_Phen
27-04-2007, 19:31
Another one for the 'yes' camp. I often use it as a heavy weapons fire magnet on the turn my 'Lord' character, of whatever army I'm using and YES I HAVE used it with Orks (along with Imperal and Chaos, specifically Khorne Terminator, marines). It kept the Warboss and his retinue from being splattered by Howling Banshees and made them run away by tank shock. Then some Fire Dragons got hold of it. My Warboss got hold of them though :D

wickedvoodoo
27-04-2007, 19:33
Will you look at that 61 for, 61 against

good poll

bertcom1
27-04-2007, 19:48
Heavy Mechanised Black Templars

2 Land Raider Crusaders, carrying 15 man squads.
1 Land Raider Crusaders, carrying 10 man command squad.
Vindicator
Predator

People don't see that coming.

Gen.Steiner
27-04-2007, 19:49
Going by the poll, I say roll a dice when writing your list: odds you do, evens you don't. ;)

Gen.Steiner
27-04-2007, 19:50
1 Land Raider Crusaders, carrying 10 man command squad.

Shouldn't that be a 12 man command squad - you can, after all, attach a Chaplain and a Librarian to a Captain's command squad. :D

Templar Ben
28-04-2007, 02:03
Shouldn't that be a 12 man command squad - you can, after all, attach a Chaplain and a Librarian to a Captain's command squad. :D

Not Black Templar.

victorpofa
28-04-2007, 02:46
The Crusader I'd be more tempted to say yes on, since it has a great capacity and more effective weapons: the storm bolters are often better at cutting down hordes than the heavy bolters, and we already know that the assault cannon is better at taking out tanks than a lascannon, given the current rules.

The LRC does not have Storm Bolters. The Hurricane Bolters are each 3 twin-linked bolters. "Each hurricane bolter counts as three twin-linked bolters." DA Codex p35. How does that work? Can the bolters in a LRC rapid fire if the tank moved? Is it the same with the bolters mounted on marine bikes?

nanktank
28-04-2007, 03:01
Landraiders dont last very long in games against me, tankbusta bombs and super stikkbombs usually take care of it. Although to be fair I dont think my opponents up until now have known how to use them very effectively.

Squallish
28-04-2007, 04:49
I said no for the simple fact they're WAY more expensive than they should be compared to saayy.... the Monolith.

2xx for a beast that has Ordnance, an almost insane number of hits weapon, and rerolls to WBB and better defensive rules than any other tank in the game (save a tweaked Eldar Tank).. and acts as an effective transport because it's not a deathtrap!

Compare that to 2xx for a Land Raider.. that can't fire all its weapons on the move (at its nice ballistic skill).. isn't immune to everything a Mono is.. AND shouldn't be used as a Transport because it's a deathtrap.

WoW_Auron
28-04-2007, 05:11
The Poll tips slightly in favour of yes (so far) however i see more negative thoughts than positive ones. How odd.

To Sum up, in MY view so far.

Standard LR -

AV 14 all round.
Potentially a sponge.
Transport for Termies.
Frontal assault ramp, as apposed to rear/side's as is usually the case.

Drawbacks -

250points standard, point sink.
Poor weaponry IMO (for 250points anyway)
Could potentially be destroyed by a single HW shot.

Conclusion:

Its firepower isnt as spectacular as you might hope for 250points. Sure, it can transport terminators.
Is it reliable, on paper looking at it you would have to lean towards yes. In practise, im leaning towards no. I realise all tanks face the same problem however this one is different, because its the size of a small house and just cost you 250+ points.

LRC -

AV14 All round
MUCH better weaponry.
Bigger Transport Capacity
Potentially a sponge.
Frag Assault Launchers.

Drawbacks -

265points is still a bit of a sink
Could also potentially be destroyed by a single HW shot.

Conclusion

Obvious benefits for an extra 15 points (already with extra armour included). Frag assault Launcher rule can clearly be very handy. Its weaponry is MUCH better Twinlinked Assault Cannon! (no comments on cheese, please. Im aware of what they can do) ;) a Multi-Melta and 6 Twin-linked Bolters.

So, this much seems obvious to me. The LRC is a better point-for-point investment.

Both types are equally as more/less effective against certain armies, as goes for most unit types in the WH40K universe.

Both are a risk, while AV14 all round does indeed sound nice i think this looks safer than it is in reality. For example Eldar Lance weapons counting anything greater than AV14 as Av12, a few HW at a reasonable Strength value are still a risk. Not to mention various other rules Such as Tankbusting, Tankhunters, Melta weapons getting that extra pen at under half range.

Now, yes this is the same for all tanks, more so when not at AV14. However i think it is more of a problem for LR types due to the points cost. I don't think AV14 at 250/265+ points is as effective as it is meant to sound. (Just my opinion).

Here's a thought..

Would a monolith be a fair comparison to a LR type. Consider that it is 235points. A Particle Whip is evil. As for mobility (one of the advantages a LR type can offer). Well, the thing can DS. It allows units to Phase out, even if in combat and re-appear through the Monoliths Frontal portal. And of course, the key point here. Its "Living Metal" rule. Without it its just as "reliable" as a LR. Only more effective both as a straight comparison and what it can offer the rest of the army. Only its 235points. Discounting all weapon special rules for Ap is huge for something such as this.

Which leads me to ask, does a LR type deserve something like this? A rule of some form perhaps, to make its AV14 actually count for something justifiable to its points cost.

The Vehicle damage chart is very unforgiving, one lucky Penetrating hit and boom, on a 4+ its gone. perhaps this is simply the problem a LR faces? Perhaps something could be done here, to help increase its chances of survivability.

I am thinking for definate that both are too expensive for what they are. Im coming up with ways to make it worth the points, ways to increase its chances of survival because my view is it needs (or at least deserves it) for what you are paying. Im not asking people to agree, nor am i saying its crap it MUST have these things. I guess its the kind of unit that benefits greatly from clever play. And a lot of luck (or in my case, the thing not getting shot to pieces by weapons that really shouldn't) it's luck. I fully appreciate that these things can be evil

Don't forget. My point of view is focused on one thing. The points Value. I dont care if my 110 point Predator Destructor takes a lucky one-shot
and ends up destroyed, it was only 110points (ish).

This is not a LR vs Monolith post (im sure there have probably been some in the past), just something i thought worth mentioning.

In conclusion to all i have seen, said and thought about i am going to vote no to my own poll. However im going to buy one and use it anyway (sometimes). Why? Because i want one! It looks *******' awesome! It could be about as reliable as something built by squabbling grots on a scrap-heap challenge on the battlefield for all i care, but i sure as hell want to own one and painting/modelling one (despite the nightmare stories i have been fed about putting these together) will be truly enjoyable.

**Also, i have a query or two perhaps someone could Clarify.**

What are the EXACT rules for Disembarking and assaulting from a LR & LRC, at what distance can you disembark then assault. Can a LRC move 12" and still leave its load the choice to disembark and assault? Does this only apply to a LRC and not a LR (if this is correct, then this is also an obvious benefit). Also, i think all models inside a LRC can shoot out of it, much like an open topped vehicle. Normally i'd check my BGB but it's at my friends. Clarification?

malisteen
28-04-2007, 05:26
In my mind... no, the Land Raider is not worth the points. It's a decent gun tank, but not really better then a predator, especially considering its 'little of this, little of that' loadout that prevents it from making full use of its weaponry. It's a decent transport, but not 200 points better then a rhino (at that point you could have a whole second squad in yet another rhino). It's durable, but unlike the Monolith it doesn't get to ignore all the weaponry out there that basically ignores its durability. It's so expensive that it should be able to do all of its jobs at full efficiency simultaneously, but if you're transporting to full effect (by moving full speed), then you're automatically wasting your shooting potential, and vice versa. The Land Raider is a very schitzophrenic tank. It doesn't know what it is or what it wants to be.

The Crusader, on the other hand, is great. It is an armored transport to die for, with increased carrying capacity, guns that mostly all want to fire at the same targets when you get close, but are not so powerful that you feel like you're wasting them while you're moving forward. It even gives its contents frags when they assault out! The crusader, despite the points cost, is a worthwhile gamble, because it does one thing really really well. As a chaos player I've oft wished I had access to one.

One of the forgeworld variants, the one with the four twin linked heavy bolters, is also pretty good. It has useful special rules, its guns all want to shoot the same target. It has some of the transport vs. shoot issues, but not as many since all of its guns are defensive. It's a worthwhile vehicle. The other FW variant is an utter dog, and shouldn't be fielded.


I've long wished for Chaos variant landraiders, Forgeworld or otherwise. Until then, my own Chaos Landraider is purely a display piece. All my attempts to use it in the game have proven disasterous, and at this point my terminators would rather deep strike, which is saying something, since the deep strike rules are lousy. As for my PA chosen - they'd rather infiltrate or ride the much maligned rhino. The only unit that kind of likes to ride in the land raider is my possessed, but even then I feel like I'm spending at least 50 points for guns I don't need and don't want.

Xiphias
28-04-2007, 09:41
Wow seems to be about 50/50 opinion on this! As with anything in this game it all depends on who or what you are facing to be honest. Would probably only ever take one in games of 2,000 pts or above!

My point of view is if you are going to go for it then go for it! What I mean is a tooled up LRC with PotMS with Assault Termie squad led by Chaplain can unleash a load of hurt. Just make sure you don't get popped in the first turn ;)

Tymell
28-04-2007, 10:13
In my mind... no, the Land Raider is not worth the points. It's a decent gun tank, but not really better then a predator, especially considering its 'little of this, little of that' loadout that prevents it from making full use of its weaponry.

A very good point. Something like a predator can be outfitted for a single task and do that very well, which tends to be better than wasting half your shots.


Wow seems to be about 50/50 opinion on this!

Really is quite shocking. I don't think I've ever seen a poll this close before. I've watched it since I think the start of page 2, and every single time I've checked back it's either been dead-on 50/50, or one just a couple of votes ahead of the other.

I'd be interested to see the results if there were more specific options, being able to vote for the basic land raider and the crusader separately. I'd guess, given the responses, that the crusader generally would be voted worth the cost, and the number of votes saying basic land raiders are would be a lot less (since all the "yes" votes here can be taken to mean that, even though in fact they likely don't).

Spaceraider
28-04-2007, 13:40
Another yes vote here, although it has it's drawbacks and is always the most expensive single item in my army and therefore the highest priority on my opponants agenda no other unit has caused such wanton destruction with total disregard for backup. Any enemy vehicles with sub AV 14 better come in packs and Str9 twin linked is usually enough to inst-gib those annoying IC's that do decide that it needs their attention. Not fielded any other pattern but the crusader clearly benefits from having some kind of CC troops transported inside due to the short range nature of it's weaponry, that's not a criticism of the crusader but more of a reflection on it's versatility as a standalone codex unit.

freebooter
28-04-2007, 14:01
Sweet...

My vote of yes brought the poll to a tie on 83 votes a piece.



The landraider is a powerful weapons mount and has the added advantage of being a transport and being one of the heaviest tanks in the game. I personally think the crusader may be a tad over priced as you don't have the lascannons but this is sort ob balanced out.

In the end it's just about whether you can spare the points. I prefer landraiders to rhinos for my wolves because they have that added firepower and allow me to get my troops to the enemy lines in mostly one piece...
But then I prefer droppods over Landraiders :)

bertcom1
28-04-2007, 14:03
Shouldn't that be a 12 man command squad - you can, after all, attach a Chaplain and a Librarian to a Captain's command squad. :D

It was actually 10 men including the compulsory characters.

2000 pts exactly

Vic
28-04-2007, 16:32
Poll should have been worded better, as there is more than one variant.

As it is, I voted no and brought it to a 84-84 tie :)

Darkhorse
28-04-2007, 18:24
True, but even riding in a Land Raider they're going to be neutered for one/two turns too, so the difference isn't that drastic. And the Land Raider could be taken out, both forcing the termies to walk and potentially harming them, no such problem with depp striking.

EDIT: Depp striking? Whoops, I meant the terminators teleporting in with deep strike. Depp striking would, I'd imagine, involve sailing in on the antennas of their tanks and stepping off, covered in jewellry and baggy clothes while causing any women on the battlefield to swoon. A new rule for rogue trader or Eldar pirate forces maybe? :p

LOL! I'd think it had more to do with flooring the panzy thesp!

Anyway, as I said 3 turns is a minimum before teleporting termies can get into combat, Usually the battle has already been decided before they decide to show, if they arrive at all... (Especially with my dice)
With a LR you can be in CC in 2 turns max, (Spend any longer in the thing and it's likely to be shot from under you) you also can dictate the flow of the battle simply by placing it on the table.
This means that the termies in the LR have proven to have far more of an effect on a battle than either teleporting or footslogging termies have.
This becomes most apparent if the termies take out the major threat to the LR (Eg. deepstriking assault marines) at which point the enemy is often paralysed once they realise they have no way of dealing with it.