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DaBrode
30-04-2007, 00:24
Can someone give me the breakdown for HW & Shield Armor save according to 7th edition rules? I'm having difficulty interpreting this to a friend of mine via telephone who is also having a hard time believing there is such a bonus because we both recently started 7th and learned on 6th which AFAIK didn't have such a rule. Anyway he's calling "shenanigans" and I'm trying to tell him otherwise according to what I've read here (Warseer) lately.

My understanding is that a shield gives +1 all the time regardless of the weapon carried and a HW with that same shield gives an additional +1 front a frontal attack.

A numbers breakdown and page reference would help. My rulebook is home and I'm stuck at work. This rule seems big and the fact that we aren't playing it thus far changes things for our armies.

Thanks.

metro_gnome
30-04-2007, 00:26
um... you've got it right...
and the only thing that has changed from 6th to 7th is that it is now limited to frontal attack only...

Masque
30-04-2007, 00:28
Against shooting the shield will give +1 save no matter what weapons you have. In hand to hand the shield will give +1 save if you use any one-handed weapon. If you use a hand weapon and shield you get an additional +1 save in hand to hand but only against attacks from the front. The hand weapon and shield rules can be found on page 56 of the BRB.

DaBrode
30-04-2007, 00:33
Against shooting the shield will give +1 save no matter what weapons you have. In hand to hand the shield will give +1 save if you use any one-handed weapon. If you use a hand weapon and shield you get an additional +1 save in hand to hand but only against attacks from the front. The hand weapon and shield rules can be found on page 56 of the BRB.

This is huge and I never played that way from 6th either. Not from my recollection. My only question now is...why would anyone take spears over hand weapons (choppas) when using Orcs!?

+1 Strength in 1st round of combat
+1 save from shield
+1 save from handweapon & shield (from frontal attacks)

Average Orc, Light armor (+1), Shield (+1), HW+Shield (+1)...

4+ save and a 1st round str bonus. That's nice.

Bloodknight
30-04-2007, 00:39
Well, people just donīt. I cannot remember when I last saw Orcs with spears.
Same counts for almost every other unit that can be equipped with spears, except Saurus warriors with their insane number of S4 attacks. HW/S is normally the better choice.

The HW/S rule was there in 6th edition, and even better than today, as it wasnīt restricted to frontal attacks.

Masque
30-04-2007, 00:41
Sometimes spears are the only way you get any attacks back. When you get charged by knights or great weapon infantry with S4 the extra armor doesn't help you at and and you'll likely only get a couple attacks back. But if you have spears you'll probably get around 7 or 8 attacks back.

TheDarkDaff
30-04-2007, 01:03
In 6th Ed the "Choppa" was not a "Hand Weapon" so it didn't get the bonus armour save when used with a shield. Now it does.

DaBrode
30-04-2007, 01:46
In 6th Ed the "Choppa" was not a "Hand Weapon" so it didn't get the bonus armour save when used with a shield. Now it does.


Interesting. I assume that this also includes the Ogre Club as a hand weapon? (-1 to opponent Armor save)

TheWarSmith
30-04-2007, 03:00
No, it doesn't. ogre clubs that give the extra -1 save do NOT count as hand weapons when using them with ironfists. You have to miss out on the hw/shield bonus in order to get the extra -1 save on your hits.

It wasn't a change from 6th to 7th in the rulebook. It was a change from the 6th ed OG army book to the new 7th ed army book.

Bretagne
30-04-2007, 03:58
No, it doesn't. ogre clubs that give the extra -1 save do NOT count as hand weapons when using them with ironfists. You have to miss out on the hw/shield bonus in order to get the extra -1 save on your hits.


interesting. why is this? you would think that both choppas and ogre clubs would be hand weapons, wouldnt you?

lparigi34
30-04-2007, 05:10
No, it doesn't. ogre clubs that give the extra -1 save do NOT count as hand weapons when using them with ironfists. You have to miss out on the hw/shield bonus in order to get the extra -1 save on your hits.

Not, unless they FAQ'd it somewhere else, the rule for Ironfist says:

"if they use it as a shield in conjunction with a mundane hand weapon they gain the bonus to their Saving throw for being equipped with a hand weapon and a shield"

What the Ogre Club loses when used with the ironfist is the -1Sv to enemy armour bonus, not the hand weapon charater is has:

"Ogre Clubs are Hand Weapons, but they also impose an extra -1 Save modifier on any Armour save. An Ogre using its club loses this bonus if it is used in conjunction with any other weapon or ironfist"

Shockwave
30-04-2007, 11:30
Also remember that in 6th, if any part of the HW/S combo was magical you did not get the HW/S bonus, now it is not the case.

Atrahasis
30-04-2007, 11:35
I think you mean "if any part of the HW/S combo was magical you did not get the HW/S bonus..." :)

Tutore
30-04-2007, 11:57
This is huge and I never played that way from 6th either. Not from my recollection. My only question now is...why would anyone take spears over hand weapons (choppas) when using Orcs!?

+1 Strength in 1st round of combat
+1 save from shield
+1 save from handweapon & shield (from frontal attacks)

Average Orc, Light armor (+1), Shield (+1), HW+Shield (+1)...

4+ save and a 1st round str bonus. That's nice.

It is huge but correct, and it was so in 6th edition, although, as it is already said, you can have the combo bonus only if fighting on the front. Spears on orcs can still be somewhat useful. It's better that you give a look at Avian's home page for more info about that.

TheWarSmith
30-04-2007, 13:58
Not, unless they FAQ'd it somewhere else, the rule for Ironfist says:

"if they use it as a shield in conjunction with a mundane hand weapon they gain the bonus to their Saving throw for being equipped with a hand weapon and a shield"

What the Ogre Club loses when used with the ironfist is the -1Sv to enemy armour bonus, not the hand weapon charater is has:

"Ogre Clubs are Hand Weapons, but they also impose an extra -1 Save modifier on any Armour save. An Ogre using its club loses this bonus if it is used in conjunction with any other weapon or ironfist"


Just a different way of wording what I said. You get the -1 AS ONLY if you use it alone. It's similar to how the choppa used to work, where it only got its bonus if it was used alone, and counted as a hand weapon if used in conjunction w/ anything else

DaBrode
30-04-2007, 21:13
Ok so Ogre Club, although a hand weapon, loses it's extra snazzy bonus when using a shield/ironfist?

Gotcha. Man, how I never knew this I don't know. I learned how to play fantasy from a black shirt.

Brother Siccarius
01-05-2007, 06:35
Gotcha. Man, how I never knew this I don't know. I learned how to play fantasy from a black shirt.

;) ;) ;) ;)

Brother Siccarius
01-05-2007, 06:41
Also remember that in 6th, if any part of the HW/S combo was magical you did not get the HW/S bonus, now it is not the case.

You know...This is the first time anyone's mentioned that...

Could it be that a magical/mundane shield and a magical/mundane hand weapon can combine to give the +1 save in combat even though one of them is magical?

I know I must be missing something...but I can't find the wording against it in the 7th ed rules, and as much as I'd like it to be true, the implications for certain magical item combinations for armies not mine scares me.

I also know that previously there was a limitation that you couldn't use another, mundane, weapon in conjunction with a magic weapon, but I can't seem to find it in the new rules...

I'm even flipping back between the new and old rules to compare where things used to be and if they exist now.

eldrak
01-05-2007, 08:30
No, it's been mentioned lots of times.

Try page 121 for your other question.

DeathlessDraich
01-05-2007, 09:57
Could it be that a magical/mundane shield and a magical/mundane hand weapon can combine to give the +1 save in combat even though one of them is magical?


Not *all* combinations of magical/mundane shield and a magical/mundane hand weapon will benefit from the Hand weapon and shield bonus.

ZomboCom
01-05-2007, 12:12
A mundane hand weapon used with ANY type of shield will give the bonus +1 save when used together in combat to the front.

Masque
01-05-2007, 15:24
So, would the Bretonnian Sword of the Quest which 'May be used as either a hand weapon or a great weapon' allow the bonus save for hand weapon and shield? And if it was used against someone with Pha's Illumination would you still be able to decide which way to use it?

Atrahasis
01-05-2007, 15:26
So, would the Bretonnian Sword of the Quest which 'May be used as either a hand weapon or a great weapon' allow the bonus save for hand weapon and shield? Yes. (Awaiting the 300 page discussion)


And if it was used against someone with Pha's Illumination would you still be able to decide which way to use it?I would allow it.

ZomboCom
01-05-2007, 21:09
Generally most people say that the sword of the quest can be used to gain the hw/s bonus.

I personally disagree, but not to the extent that I'd stop my opponent from doing so.

DaBrode
01-05-2007, 22:00
Generally most people say that the sword of the quest can be used to gain the hw/s bonus.

I personally disagree, but not to the extent that I'd stop my opponent from doing so.


I would think the moment you decide to use it as a 2-hander you forfeit your shield bonus. But wtf do I know, I've been playing fantasy wrong for years! :angel:

Shockwave
03-05-2007, 06:29
From what i understand of it, if the magical weapon can "count's as hand weapon" in any form. Then the bonus can be claimed. To the best of my knowledge, only the sword of the quest (Or whatever it's called) can be used like this naturally.

warwizard_99
02-02-2008, 05:17
My roomie and I were just talking about this and we believe that we get it. Is this correct:

Ogre with LA, IF, xHW has a 4+ save in hth and a 6+ save vs. shooting? LA gives a 6+ save, IF acts as a shield providing a 5+ save, and HA.shield gives a +1 save for a 4+.

Atrahasis
03-02-2008, 11:16
That's correct warwizard.

Urgat
03-02-2008, 13:32
Wait, what is that, HA.shield?

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 13:37
You get the hand weapon and sheild bonus, when equipt with a hand weapon and a sheild and fighting enemies to your front.

The sword of the quest can be used as a hand weapon so will grant the bonus, as it is stated in it's rule to be able to be used as a hand weapon.

Magical or not, if it has the rule "hand weapon" then it follows all the rules for hand weapons, including being able to grant the hand weapon and sheild bonus to the front.

sneroplex
03-02-2008, 19:45
Ok, this seems pretty clear to me but I just want to confirm. If a unit of Black Orcs took shields, they would have a 4+ save from all shooting and a 3+ save if you chose to fight with a hand weapon in close combat. If they use either 2 choppas or a great weapon they're only saving at a 5+?

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2008, 19:49
Yep, but remember that the hand weapon and sheild bonus is to the front only, not the flanks or rear.

sneroplex
03-02-2008, 20:03
Cool thanks. So that brings up my next question, does anybody think it's worth taking shields on Black Orcs?

Arnizipal
03-02-2008, 20:56
Only if you're facing a shooting heavy opponent IMO.
But a discussion like that really belongs in the tactics forum.

warwizard_99
04-02-2008, 01:38
thanks guys, that is what I thought! I thought that it was almost scary having an Ogre with a 4+ hth save and just wanted to make sure.

Fredmans
04-02-2008, 08:14
Regarding orcs and spears. Although choppa/shield would be better in 95 % of the situations, spears can sometimes be better. Remember that orcs do not exchange their choppas for spears like many other troops. Therefore a unit with spears can always choose whether to fight with spears and shields or choppas and shields at the beginning of every combat.

Regarding black orcs and shields. Most of the time you will try to use the nifty Armed to da teef-rule in close combat, but black orcs will always find themselves targeted by missiles. Shields are only bought if you suspect that you will have to weather a rain of bullets, magic missiles and arrows to get into hand-to-hand action.

The problem with O&G is that every point you manage to cut will get you another unit. I always intend to equip my black orcs with shields, but always choose not to in the end. If I did not have already have painted spear boyz from 6th ed, I would not equip them that way.

/Fredmans

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-02-2008, 11:23
Remember that orcs do not exchange their choppas for spears like many other troops.

I can't think of any unit in the game that doesn't have a hand weapon. Orcs were really the only ones and the new choppa changed that. So spearmen in other lists will also have the option of using hand weapons if they so choose.

Festus
04-02-2008, 13:40
Yes, theothers will have HandWeapons, but not Choppas like Orcs: The added S of a Choppa is nice enough on its own, I'd say :)

Festus