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Ordo Hereticus
04-08-2005, 20:47
Bin having some problems with my daemon legion at the moment, i occasionally win with them, probably more often that i lose, though it is just a win, not a massacre, and for the upcoming tournament im going to need the massacres to win.

I wont post my army list at the moment, but i wonder if anyne could give some pointers on what does the most damage in a tzeentch legion army? Like what units are the best to take?

Remember it is a 1500pt tournament, so no greater daemon :(

Any help at all would be great, thanks.

Reinnon
04-08-2005, 20:53
i find changebringers to be fantastic units for model fire support and for a surprisenly powerful close combat unit.

I feel a tzeentch deamon legion excels in the movement phase, get behind the army and don't go for front charges.

units of horrors i'm not too sure about, but their bound spells can be nasty if cast and can drain dispel dice quite easily

Ordo Hereticus
04-08-2005, 21:07
Yeah i'll have to agree, my 4 changebringers always end up being the last thing to die, if not, stay alive, they do fantastic at surviving and giving a fear factor, apart from me not rolling very well for their shooting, and combat, they still do well.

Though they can never survive charging a unit :P they have to pick at smaller ones, then once they all dead, they combine charge with me exalted daemon and screamers to kill ranks.

I played a few games with lots of horrors, and they just made them look scary and drawed enemy firepower more than they do in small units.

Their bound spells are nasty :D

Thanks for the help

Screamin Daemon
04-08-2005, 23:12
I have played a Tzeentch list for the last couple of tournaments and have hauled ass with them.

The power in this list is the movement. Magic is good, but nothing special, shooting is also good, but toughness 4 will bone you. Stick with your speed.

My current list is 2 units of 10 horros, both with champion. 7 flamers, 4 screamers, 5 changebringers, 2 chariots and the greater daemon. Small army, only 37 models.

I, generally speaking, set up in a refused flank, with my slowest models, being the horrors, in the middle, and the faster models on the edge.
I usually let my opponent have the first turn, unless then are shooty heavy. I do this because most people will move at least 4 inches toward you, which is all you need to fly over him. Now, depending on how many flyers you have, you can have a bunch of units and/or characters behind your enemy lines, poised for a charge.

At this point, there is no hard set plan as to what to do next. But I will say this, never ever ever charge your opponent unless you have a 100 percent confidence rate that you will win combat. With an average weapon skill of 2, you won't get far. :). Shoot all day long, cast magic, but don't charge unless you will beat the living crap out of your opponents unit.

Ordo Hereticus
04-08-2005, 23:29
Great advice Screamin thanks :D

Yeah i guess i will just fly about and shoot/magic them, though i always feel that i can win a combat though i never do :P appart from always rolling pants. I think i will stay awau from combat lol.

In 2000pts i have no problem as the lord of change is a nasty guy and kicks ass, its just 1500pts i have the trouble, as i dont get the big scary guy, nor the ability to take both chariots :(

What would be the best choice in 1.5 games?

I also field units of 10 horrors with champs in, though i keep getting told i should boost those units up to like 16 or something high like that, just so the bound spell level and effect is greater, though i think it is a massive point sink, especially in 1500pt games, you think this is? Or is it a good decision to make them nasty numbers at low point game?

Thanks

Gluemy
05-08-2005, 06:57
My current legion has LoC, two 10 horrors units with champion, two units of screamers (3 and 4 screamers), two units of changebringers (3 in both) and two chariots. Overally you should maximise flying, becouse thats the thing where T-legion is best. You must remember that worst enemy of legion is shooting, so try to eliminate those jezzail teams and bolt throwers as soon as possible. You should have no problem with ordinary close combat troops (tactic that I use: fly over with changebringer, shoot, then opponent turns them to charge, but on your turn fly over again and shoot and so on), and cavalry should be able only to kill horrors, but LoC will be good against them (especially Blue fire or Orange if you want your LoC to peck ;) ). Use LoC against all high defenced elite troops, monsters and heroes. But, as someone vice guy said, WHFB is winned in move phase, and legion is most versatile army in the game. This makes it one of the best armies in the game...heh!

Gluemy edit: in 1,5k games use Daemon Prince and give him Ether blade, soul hunger and spell breaker. You could also make Prince Undivided, and then give him Fire lore, that is IMO many times better than lore of Tzeench.

therisnosaurus
05-08-2005, 09:57
is it just me or can you not take a daemon prince in 1.5k?

I think you mean exalted daemon

Reinnon
05-08-2005, 10:46
i like the refused flank also:

my 2000 point force is this:

LoC
3 units of 10 horrors with a champ
2 units of 3 changebringers
2 chariots

its quite effective.

the main tactic for close cpombat is a combination charge, don't just charge a single unit of changebringers, throw in a chariot for something that ca deal more wounds

Vosk
05-08-2005, 14:05
I've not scaled up to games of 2000pts with my Legion yet, so my experience has been of nothing but 1500pts battles and less (I conclude that a Tzeentchian Legion really should be treating 1500pts as a minimum though). I've found that units of 15 Horrors work exceedingly well - it gives them a subtle rank bonus should they end up in a combat for some bizzare reason, and gives their spells a Power Level of 7, which means that if the opponent wants to dispel a Horror spell then he has to throw at least 2 dice into it. That goes on to leave my Exalted Daemon his full 6 power dice to cast whatever he wills, as two Level 7 Bound Spells are usually enough to drain away the entire Dispel Pool of all but the truly magically focused armies.

You shouldn't leave the Wastes without an Exalted Daemon with an Aether Blade (armour is the only thing that really hurts Tzeentch Daemons) - use him to kill Knights and small (very small) units of elite infantry. He cannot stand up to anything with more than one rank though, so steer clear of Grave Guard and so on. Orange Fire really helps here, I'd go so far as to say it is the best Tzeentch spell of them all.

Screamers are great, take at least one large-ish unit to hunt other fast moving units, kill artillery/spellcasters and then combine charges with the Exalted Daemon and whatever else you take.

I use 9 Flamers in my army, but they are easily replaced by 3 Changebringers, which everyone seems to love dearly. The big reason I use Flamers is that you get 3 of them per Changebringer (that's 9D6 shots instead of 3D6), and their movement is only 3" less if you march. But that's down to personal preference.

Screamin Daemon
05-08-2005, 22:02
*Thereisnosaurus you are correct. You cannot take a daemon prince in a 1500 point game. The DP is a lord choice (As well as a hero, but not the point right now), and since you can't take lords until 2000 points...you do the math.


*Heretic. I use the exact same list, except my LoC becomes an exalted daemon with the blade of ether, and I drop a chariot.

If you are smart about your casting order, then a low bound spell level really doesn't matter. I usually leave curroscation of energy to the end of my magic phase.

Vosk
06-08-2005, 00:39
But you cannot leave it until the end of the Magic Phase - Horror Bound Spells specificallyt state that they have to be cast before any other spells.

PelsBoble
06-08-2005, 15:25
I also field units of 10 horrors with champs in, though i keep getting told i should boost those units up to like 16 or something high like that, just so the bound spell level and effect is greater..



Where does it state that the boudn level goes up regarding to unit size? I cant seem to find this rule anywhere so any pointer would be grateful :)

Vosk
06-08-2005, 16:09
Page 39 of Hordes of Chaos, under the heading Special Rules and the subheading Spellcasters. Half way through that paragraph it explains their power level, then goes on to say that they must use these spells at the start of the Magic Phase.

PelsBoble
06-08-2005, 16:42
Ah thx for that. Im tempted to field a huge unit of horrors now :p

Vosk
06-08-2005, 16:59
It is possible to field huge units of Horrors (25 Daemons per unit) and snipe at incoming units with Power 12 S5 magic missiles, but if you go down this path then sooner or later you are going to have to consider your Horrors being in combat, which is... not a good plan. It could work if you had Bloodletters or similar to help them out there, but it's a very iffy strategy.

Screamin Daemon
06-08-2005, 21:10
Horror spells do not state that they must be cast before any other spells....I think. After reading what vosk wrote, i pulled out my book. The last sentence reads: "The horrors may cast on of the following spells at the start of their magic phase".

Now maybe I'm just being stubborn because I like my old way of doing things, but I do'nt think that this line means that no other spells can be cast before the horror spells. What do you think?

Kerill
07-08-2005, 10:09
Screamin is right- this is a potentially very important paragraph- especially if you create a new unit of horrors with magic. If you do and they can't cast then that spell really does suck the devils nads.

Vosk
07-08-2005, 15:17
This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7898) thread would seem to agree that Horror Spells must be cast at the start of the Magic Phase. Sorry guys - though really it's never beena problem for me (and I go heavy on Horrors).

Reinnon
07-08-2005, 15:47
imo its more useful as the enemy has to decide whether to use dispel dice to stop the potentially dangerous horror spells.

if he lets them through they can do quite a fair bit of damage (esp against zombies :)) or if he dispels them he won't have dice to stop say a blue fire (imo the best spell of the lore)

ampy
31-08-2005, 06:55
I use 9 Flamers in my army, but they are easily replaced by 3 Changebringers, which everyone seems to love dearly. The big reason I use Flamers is that you get 3 of them per Changebringer (that's 9D6 shots instead of 3D6), and their movement is only 3" less if you march. But that's down to personal preference.

Well, the problem is that since Flames of Tzeentch are thrown weapon, you can't shoot while you march.
Apart from that I like the walking guys too.

Selsaral
31-08-2005, 14:03
IMHO the number one power of Tzeentch is the Staff of Change. Giving that up in the daemonic legion is extremely painful, but it's slightly ameliorated by Tzeetch's Will. But in a 1500 point battle you can't have that either.

So first I think it has to be noted that 1500 points is a major disadvantage for a Tzeentch Daemonic Legion. It's just a fact. Most other armies don't suffer from such penalties in smaller battles.

And also I regularly field huge units of horrors (23+). They are very effective. Their magic missile becomes strength 5, which is nice. But when you get within 12" of a big enemy unit. Coruscation of Energy cast at level 11 becomes absolutely brutal. I've won several games with this alone. Also, depending on your foe, 23 fear-causers can auto win combats (with their rank bonus and a standard/musician).